I prefer the 360 controller simply because of the size of the handles. The dual shock is TERRIBLE when it comes to this. They feel small and stumpy. It always feels like I barely have a grip on it.
Now you want terrible?
Grab a damn NES controller, you little pricks. I played Super Mario out the ass with the piece of shit rectangular prism. It was fucking terrible. SNES wasn't much better. I grew a bit so it seemed like I had even less of a grip.
Now the N64? While it looked like a weird sex toy (hey it vibrates!), the damn thing was an excellent controller. I NEVER had one break, despite attempts to do so. The stick never broke although I heard rumors that they did. And the size was perfect to fit in my hands.
Gamecube controllers? Man, my soldering skills were put to the test switching out parts between controlls on those pieces of shit. Fuck those things.
The N64 stick WOULD wear out and become loose after repeated use. My original controller also has this weird thing were the stick seems to "click" going from certain positions.
I must be the only person that not only doesn't mind the original NES controller but doesn't find it all that uncomfortable. Seems very natural to me.
Never had any issues with Gamecube controllers..what exactly did you have break?
Cameron_Talley on
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Did some asshole a few pages back seriously insist that "ergonomics" were the real reason that the PlayStation controller is not comfortable?
He can write all the papers out of his ass that he wants (real good use of your time by the way, papers on controllers), but yet I still find the DualShock to be the most comfortable controller I've ever used.
Where does that fit into the reasoning?
UnbreakableVow on
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acidlacedpenguinInstitutionalizedSafe in jail.Registered Userregular
Did some asshole a few pages back seriously insist that "ergonomics" were the real reason that the PlayStation controller is not comfortable?
He can write all the papers out of his ass that he wants (real good use of your time by the way, papers on controllers), but yet I still find the DualShock to be the most comfortable controller I've ever used.
Where does that fit into the reasoning?
What is comfortable and what is ergonomically correct are not always the same thing.
Also, I assume the paper was for a design class. Why not write about something you're passionate about?
Cameron_Talley on
Switch Friend Code: SW-4598-4278-8875
3DS Friend Code: 0404-6826-4588 PM if you add.
(real good use of your time by the way, papers on controllers)
because playing video games is a better use of your time?
There's a difference between hobbies and school, obviously.
And please do correct me if I'm wrong (because I may be), but it's in my understanding that something that's well-designed ergonomically is not meant to put any strain or discomfort on the user.
And I've never had any strain or discomfort put on me by any controller, so yeah.
Did some asshole a few pages back seriously insist that "ergonomics" were the real reason that the PlayStation controller is not comfortable?
He can write all the papers out of his ass that he wants (real good use of your time by the way, papers on controllers), but yet I still find the DualShock to be the most comfortable controller I've ever used.
Where does that fit into the reasoning?
That you find something comfortable that many other people, myself included, are not particularly fond of?
Conversely, how do we fit with your reasoning?
I'm not going to say the DS-form is the worst ever (I still prefer it considerably to the GC), but it's a long ways from the most comfortable (maybe 4th or 5th) for me personally.
Did some asshole a few pages back seriously insist that "ergonomics" were the real reason that the PlayStation controller is not comfortable?
He can write all the papers out of his ass that he wants (real good use of your time by the way, papers on controllers), but yet I still find the DualShock to be the most comfortable controller I've ever used.
Where does that fit into the reasoning?
That you find something comfortable that many other people, myself included, are not particularly fond of?
Conversely, how do we fit with your reasoning?
You don't.
Different things are comfortable for different people.
Which is why it's an idiotic thing to say that it is a fact that something is poorly designed for everyone when many people do find it comfortable, just as many people don't.
Did some asshole a few pages back seriously insist that "ergonomics" were the real reason that the PlayStation controller is not comfortable?
He can write all the papers out of his ass that he wants (real good use of your time by the way, papers on controllers), but yet I still find the DualShock to be the most comfortable controller I've ever used.
Where does that fit into the reasoning?
That you find something comfortable that many other people, myself included, are not particularly fond of?
Conversely, how do we fit with your reasoning?
You don't.
Different things are comfortable for different people.
Which is why it's an idiotic thing to say that it is a fact that something is poorly designed for everyone when many people do find it comfortable, just as many people don't.
Well, there are some people actually schooled in design, but I know I'm not one of them.
I think their points may have a certain validity for that reason (it's why, if a biologist talk about cells, I'm inclined to accept their opinions on things I don't know about), though I imagine design also factors in "This may not work for everyone".
Like I said: Ergonomic does not always equal comfortable.
Sit down in a lumpy old couch. You feel comfortable? Sure. But ergonomically, that couch is terrible, and over time will cause you to have horrible back pain, etc.
Just because you find something comfortable does NOT mean that it is ergonomic.
Cameron_Talley on
Switch Friend Code: SW-4598-4278-8875
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I find the Dualshock controller to be too small and flimsy.
I don't like the fact that when I apply just a little twist to it, I can hear it creaking like it's going to snap in half.
So far the two most comfy controllers I've ever used is the dreamcast and 360 controllers. They're built like bricks and fit my hands just right.
Now only if MS can bring out a decent D-pad, I'd be a happy fucking camper.
I find the Dualshock controller to be too small and flimsy.
I don't like the fact that when I apply just a little twist to it, I can hear it creaking like it's going to snap in half.
Oh wow!
I never twisted it before, but I just tried this and you're absolutely right.
I'm sure someone posted this already, but I read the thread title and imagined someone chucking their boomerang controller in anger at some game, only to have it come back and hit them in the eye.
If there's a DualShock Pro or something coming up later in this console generation or for the next, the best thing to do would be to iterate the controller. Streamline the classic DualShock layout and shape (which is very comfortable) while adjusting things slightly for improved ergonomics.
Their biggest mistake was giving up on it before they announced (or probably even decided that they were going to have) motion control. It actually would make sense for a controller that you can both rotate easily and hold normally.
The reactions to the controller probably weren't any worse than the reactions to the Wii's name. If they had stuck with it, everyone would have gotten used to it fairly quickly.
I did write the paper for school. Who the fuck researches and writes an entire paper purely for fun, with no scholarly or career benefit?
As to ergonomics aren't everything, you're right, but that's the term most people are familiar with when you start discussing human factors and usability, and of course in this case, how comfortable a controller is to hold and use.
And no, you can't design something in one form factor that 100% of the populace can't bitch about. Someone will find something they don't like about anything, and others will find solace in a mutant device that they think was made specifically for them.
The DS is still a bad design, and you can clearly see the time-line of features that were thrown on to it without any regard for usability. The sticks are too close. If you have really tiny hands, that might be fine, but the goal in product design is to make it the best it possibly can be for the majority of users. I think the DS fails in this regard, with multiple aspects of it's design. The handles could be extended more, as it stands, those handles stop midway in my palm. The GameCube controller, was much more comfortable despite being a device with similar size, the handles were formed and positioned better.
The same goes for buttons, the DS buttons aren't great for usability. They are all the same size, and at a glance, the same colors. the symbols on them are too abstract for a new player. It takes awhile to remember the positions of these symbols, it's a fact it's easier for the human brain to remember things they are more familiar with, and mean more, so using ABXY (letters or numbers) allows for quicker learning, along with a strong color scheme. I can say to a new player with the 360 controller, hit the red button (they'll learn it's B in time, but red is immediate recognition). That simple. With the DS? You can't because the colors are too low in contrast with one another, they are pretty much pastel. And the colors are on the symbols only, not the entire button. It's good to have a 2 step system to recognition for such an integral part of user input. The GC took this one step farther and made sure each button had a different shape as well, there could never be confusion as to what you were hitting, and it was very easy for new users to pick up and play, especially with the giant green button being the main focus.
Triggers and sticks should be concave, to allow the fingers to rest inside. Both these are opposite on the DS3.
While I don't disagree that some people will find it perfectly comfortable, I doubt it's from first use. It's been on the market so long it's become the de facto standard for controller design, it doesn't mean it's good design.
I actually work with the designer who came up with every visual aspect of the 360, the console look, the curves, the UI, and yes, the controller. You wouldn't believe how many studies were done to get the X360 controller in the form it is today. Money and time were poured into research so that it would feel comfortable for the majority of users. Sony took a SNES pad, slapped small and awkwardly placed handles on. Did the same for the sticks, and probably didn't consult with anyone as to how well it actually functioned.
I'm not hating on Sony just to hate on Sony. I own a PS3, and it's enveloped a larger portion of my gaming time recently than any of my other systems, and I own all the other systems. I would love to use a better controller, and I hope that when the next generation comes around, they hire people to actually design a controller, not make another Frankenstein's monster.
EDIT: I should add in, the basic shape is fine. There are a number of minor tweaks that Sony could do, while keeping their iconic controller design, to vastly improve the comfort of it for the majority of users.
One last thing, why haven't third party controller makers designed controllers that look like one system but for another? How hard is it to ape a 360 controller, and just make it a PS3 controller. And Vice-versa, that way everyone can use a controller they find the most comfortable.
I prefer the 360 controller simply because of the size of the handles. The dual shock is TERRIBLE when it comes to this. They feel small and stumpy. It always feels like I barely have a grip on it.
Now you want terrible?
Grab a damn NES controller, you little pricks. I played Super Mario out the ass with the piece of shit rectangular prism. It was fucking terrible. SNES wasn't much better. I grew a bit so it seemed like I had even less of a grip.
Now the N64? While it looked like a weird sex toy (hey it vibrates!), the damn thing was an excellent controller. I NEVER had one break, despite attempts to do so. The stick never broke although I heard rumors that they did. And the size was perfect to fit in my hands.
Gamecube controllers? Man, my soldering skills were put to the test switching out parts between controlls on those pieces of shit. Fuck those things.
The N64 stick WOULD wear out and become loose after repeated use. My original controller also has this weird thing were the stick seems to "click" going from certain positions.
I must be the only person that not only doesn't mind the original NES controller but doesn't find it all that uncomfortable. Seems very natural to me.
Never had any issues with Gamecube controllers..what exactly did you have break?
On the N64, the only click I got was from the angles of the socket. My controllers survived some major abuse so I don't know whats up with that.
The analog stick modules would get damages. As I recall, the C-stick was one type and the left control stick was another. I had two controllers, one had the c-stick fail. The other had the main stick fail. I switched one out onto the other and had one controller working perfectly and another that did shit. My roomates had similar problems. Some friends in the college had it too.
And the NES controller caused so many painful numb thumbs for me, not to mentionhow poorly it sat in the hand. I still remember how TV and movies never could figure out how to hold it. They always had actors holding it with their wrists facing eachother, nearly touching or touching. Their palms spread away from eachother slightly so that they gripped the controller from below and their thumbs went up from below rather than the corners/side. So weird. Oddly, it isn't much worse than how everyone else grips them.
I see what your saying about the Dual shock design. I think people like it only because they are so used to its problems.
Your post reminded me of another controller with 'feature creep' making it less usable.
The DS (as in the handheld). Originally, it had the size that it was reasonably comfortable with slopes to give a bit better grip. As they reduced the size for portability, the ergonomics took a nose-dive. The ridge on the edge that seemed to leave a lingering pain and red line on your palms. It never seemed to have a very comfortable space for hands. The iPhone has a similar problem. Games are crazy on it because it seems like you battle the in game enemies and gravity trying to tilt it from your grip.
I prefer the 360 controller simply because of the size of the handles. The dual shock is TERRIBLE when it comes to this. They feel small and stumpy. It always feels like I barely have a grip on it.
Yeah, the PS controllers also need to get longer handles. I mean I barely have anything to hold onto on a 360 controller
the DS/2/3 ones are like holding one of those chinese finger traps
I see what your saying about the Dual shock design. I think people like it only because they are so used to its problems.
Your post reminded me of another controller with 'feature creep' making it less usable.
The DS (as in the handheld). Originally, it had the size that it was reasonably comfortable with slopes to give a bit better grip. As they reduced the size for portability, the ergonomics took a nose-dive. The ridge on the edge that seemed to leave a lingering pain and red line on your palms. It never seemed to have a very comfortable space for hands. The iPhone has a similar problem. Games are crazy on it because it seems like you battle the in game enemies and gravity trying to tilt it from your grip.
I was going to disagree, but then I remembered that 90% of the time that I'm playing my DS it's sitting on a table and I'm pushing the buttons with my index fingers/using the touchscreen.
I see what your saying about the Dual shock design. I think people like it only because they are so used to its problems.
Your post reminded me of another controller with 'feature creep' making it less usable.
The DS (as in the handheld). Originally, it had the size that it was reasonably comfortable with slopes to give a bit better grip. As they reduced the size for portability, the ergonomics took a nose-dive. The ridge on the edge that seemed to leave a lingering pain and red line on your palms. It never seemed to have a very comfortable space for hands. The iPhone has a similar problem. Games are crazy on it because it seems like you battle the in game enemies and gravity trying to tilt it from your grip.
I was going to disagree, but then I remembered that 90% of the time that I'm playing my DS it's sitting on a table and I'm pushing the buttons with my index fingers/using the touchscreen.
I'd definitely agree that the DS Lite isn't that comfortable, but at least for me, the original DS was just awful.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
Talking about hurting thumbs, I get sympathetic cramps just thinking about how my hand hurt after using the hard face buttons on the 360 controller for even only a couple hours of Assassin's creed
That's not sympathetic. :P It's just memory.
I don't like or dislike the xbox controller, but I haven't tried the 360 one. If it's the same then I'd feel the same.
I like the ps3 one because I can reach everything easily, but I don't like the triggers on either the dual shock 2 or 3.
I really dislike it's construction as well, the ps3 controller is made of shoddy plastic. If you grip it too tight, it feels like it's about to crack, you can hear bits of plastic creaking. I had the r1 and l1 buttons on my original sixaxis stop functioning well out of warranty, when I opened it up, shards of plastic came out.
I went through 3 ps2 controllers and am on my second ps3 controller. They really don't know how to make them.
If the xbox controller is more durable then that'd be a big plus in its favour imo.
Morninglord on
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Talking about hurting thumbs, I get sympathetic cramps just thinking about how my hand hurt after using the hard face buttons on the 360 controller for even only a couple hours of Assassin's creed
That's not sympathetic. :P It's just memory.
I don't like or dislike the xbox controller, but I haven't tried the 360 one. If it's the same then I'd feel the same.
I like the ps3 one because I can reach everything easily, but I don't like the triggers on either the dual shock 2 or 3.
I really dislike it's construction as well, the ps3 controller is made of shoddy plastic. If you grip it too tight, it feels like it's about to crack, you can hear bits of plastic creaking. I had the r1 and l1 buttons on my original sixaxis stop functioning well out of warranty, when I opened it up, shards of plastic came out.
I went through 3 ps2 controllers and am on my second ps3 controller. They really don't know how to make them.
If the xbox controller is more durable then that'd be a big plus in its favour imo.
The only thing I've personally heard of 'breaking' on the Xbox 360 controller--short of bashing it to pieces with a hammer--are the shoulder 'bumpers'. And that came from a controller that was thrown against the wall in anger (not exactly what you're supposed to do).
However, I'm sure other people have better idea of the durability of the controllers. DS3 controllers are probably quite sturdy too, they just don't feel as though they are.
I would like metal controllers. The same kind of aluminum used on the mac book pro. I actually have a Nyko Zero PS3 controller with some parts metal, it keeps things cool and has a nice feel. If we're paying such a premium for these game systems, the primary input device should be solid and have fantastic build quality.
I went through 3 ps2 controllers and am on my second ps3 controller. They really don't know how to make them.
I lost 2 PS2 controllers, but that was from sitting in a cupboard for over a year with the cords tightly wrapped around the controller, which pulled the connection. They would work if I held the cord tightly in the controller. So that wasn't really a manufacturing problem, it was me storing them stupidly.
I've got 3 PS3 controllers - 2 sixaxis and a DS3. The only issue with them is R2 is slightly more mushy than L2 on the DS3, but it never hinders gameplay. I've never even had a problem with my original PS1 or PS2. Manufacturing issues have never popped up for me. Though from saying this, my PS2, PS3, Wii and all my controllers will spontaneously fall apart when I get home.
The only problems I've had with broken controllers have been dog-related.
The analogues on my 360 controller are getting kind of worn down too. If I wasn't scraping the money together for new RB instruments I'd look into picking up a new one.
(real good use of your time by the way, papers on controllers)
because playing video games is a better use of your time?
There's a difference between hobbies and school, obviously.
And please do correct me if I'm wrong (because I may be), but it's in my understanding that something that's well-designed ergonomically is not meant to put any strain or discomfort on the user.
And I've never had any strain or discomfort put on me by any controller, so yeah.
You are wrong. Many many people sit in ways that are bad for them ergonomically because they are more comfortable. Hell, another example is the standard keyboard. Many people do not experience any pain from touch typing on a standard keyboard, but that doesn't stop them from being an ergonomic nightmare.
Yeah, as I was saying, the 360 analogs have way too much play in them, and it only gets worse as the controller 'ages'.
I'll second what Synthesis was saying, too, that the bumpers are also the worst part of the controller outside of the D-pad. I've already got two bumpers that have gotten really sluggish, and that just shouldn't be for a digital button control. It's not exactly the most complicated component.
In fact, the 360 pad has always sort of struck me as great design, bad engineering. I've always see it very much as an unreliable italian sports car, like an Alfa Romeo. I feel like I'm talking about a shoddy gearbox half the time -- lots of passion put into it, it's obviously been in the hands of an artist, but then, somewhere along the line, a failed followthrough with the mechanics/manufacturing of it. And yet, I still love it to death.
The battery compartment jiggles, and very occasionally loses contact. And yet it's so tight, it has a hard time fitting many rechargeables, which are a millimeter or two thicker than alkalines. The D-Pad is terrible. We've already mentioned the analogs -- great placement, great shape, too much play. The jewel, great in practice, is the wrong type of physical button -- it should have been spring-loaded, and easier to press down, with no 'click' feedback.
But ergonomically, it's probably the most fantastic controller ever made. The colours and button labels -- ABXY and Red, Blue, Yellow, Green -- are so no-nonsense, you almost want to laugh at Sony and Nintendo. (And yes, I'm aware of the Super Famicom). Hell, the button placement is exactly what everyone wanted. In fact, I'd wager that if everyone here designed their 'perfect' controller, most would look very much like the one on the 360.
What do you guys mean by too much "play" in the analog sticks?
Also, the Xbox Guide button, is that what you're referring to, Recoil? I guess since it's never actually used in-game it's never really bothered me. :?
I'll second what Synthesis was saying, too, that the bumpers are also the worst part of the controller outside of the D-pad. I've already got two bumpers that have gotten really sluggish, and that just shouldn't be for a digital button control. It's not exactly the most complicated component.
I actually like the bumpers (more than the dual shock's anyway). Really, my only complaint is that, if a controller gets thrown against a table sufficiently hard, at an angle, it'll damage the spring and cause you to loose the 'click'. It still works, but it is trickier.
I'll second what Synthesis was saying, too, that the bumpers are also the worst part of the controller outside of the D-pad. I've already got two bumpers that have gotten really sluggish, and that just shouldn't be for a digital button control. It's not exactly the most complicated component.
I actually like the bumpers (more than the dual shock's anyway). Really, my only complaint is that, if a controller gets thrown against a table sufficiently hard, at an angle, it'll damage the spring and cause you to loose the 'click'. It still works, but it is trickier.
That seems more like anger problems with the user than problems with the controller.
But fuck the bumpers, they're my biggest problem with the 360 controller. I would say the D-pad, but, you know, you never need to use it so it's a moot point.
I'll second what Synthesis was saying, too, that the bumpers are also the worst part of the controller outside of the D-pad. I've already got two bumpers that have gotten really sluggish, and that just shouldn't be for a digital button control. It's not exactly the most complicated component.
I actually like the bumpers (more than the dual shock's anyway). Really, my only complaint is that, if a controller gets thrown against a table sufficiently hard, at an angle, it'll damage the spring and cause you to loose the 'click'. It still works, but it is trickier.
That seems more like anger problems with the user than problems with the controller.
But fuck the bumpers, they're my biggest problem with the 360 controller. I would say the D-pad, but, you know, you never need to use it so it's a moot point.
It is an anger problem. I personally have only thrown a controller once, and at my couch, I think, but I've known people, and it usually leads to the bumpers.
Personally, I like the D-pad, but that's really just because the DS' D-pad is problematic for doing quarter-circles/half-circles for me personally, thereby making it pretty useless in 2D/3D fighters. It's not perfect, but at least it's usable. That's just my experience though.
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The N64 stick WOULD wear out and become loose after repeated use. My original controller also has this weird thing were the stick seems to "click" going from certain positions.
I must be the only person that not only doesn't mind the original NES controller but doesn't find it all that uncomfortable. Seems very natural to me.
Never had any issues with Gamecube controllers..what exactly did you have break?
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He can write all the papers out of his ass that he wants (real good use of your time by the way, papers on controllers), but yet I still find the DualShock to be the most comfortable controller I've ever used.
Where does that fit into the reasoning?
because playing video games is a better use of your time?
What is comfortable and what is ergonomically correct are not always the same thing.
Also, I assume the paper was for a design class. Why not write about something you're passionate about?
3DS Friend Code: 0404-6826-4588 PM if you add.
Don't you spend your entire day/night playing video games or watching TV?
edit: aw, beaten.
There's a difference between hobbies and school, obviously.
And please do correct me if I'm wrong (because I may be), but it's in my understanding that something that's well-designed ergonomically is not meant to put any strain or discomfort on the user.
And I've never had any strain or discomfort put on me by any controller, so yeah.
That you find something comfortable that many other people, myself included, are not particularly fond of?
Conversely, how do we fit with your reasoning?
I'm not going to say the DS-form is the worst ever (I still prefer it considerably to the GC), but it's a long ways from the most comfortable (maybe 4th or 5th) for me personally.
You don't.
Different things are comfortable for different people.
Which is why it's an idiotic thing to say that it is a fact that something is poorly designed for everyone when many people do find it comfortable, just as many people don't.
Well, there are some people actually schooled in design, but I know I'm not one of them.
I think their points may have a certain validity for that reason (it's why, if a biologist talk about cells, I'm inclined to accept their opinions on things I don't know about), though I imagine design also factors in "This may not work for everyone".
Sit down in a lumpy old couch. You feel comfortable? Sure. But ergonomically, that couch is terrible, and over time will cause you to have horrible back pain, etc.
Just because you find something comfortable does NOT mean that it is ergonomic.
3DS Friend Code: 0404-6826-4588 PM if you add.
But seeing as I found it the most comfortable, I have to wonder if the Xbox 360, GC, SNES and NES controllers would have the same result.
I don't like the fact that when I apply just a little twist to it, I can hear it creaking like it's going to snap in half.
So far the two most comfy controllers I've ever used is the dreamcast and 360 controllers. They're built like bricks and fit my hands just right.
Now only if MS can bring out a decent D-pad, I'd be a happy fucking camper.
Oh wow!
I never twisted it before, but I just tried this and you're absolutely right.
Crazy that it feels so cheap.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
If there's a DualShock Pro or something coming up later in this console generation or for the next, the best thing to do would be to iterate the controller. Streamline the classic DualShock layout and shape (which is very comfortable) while adjusting things slightly for improved ergonomics.
PSN:RevDrGalactus/NN:RevDrGalactus/Steam
Their biggest mistake was giving up on it before they announced (or probably even decided that they were going to have) motion control. It actually would make sense for a controller that you can both rotate easily and hold normally.
The reactions to the controller probably weren't any worse than the reactions to the Wii's name. If they had stuck with it, everyone would have gotten used to it fairly quickly.
As to ergonomics aren't everything, you're right, but that's the term most people are familiar with when you start discussing human factors and usability, and of course in this case, how comfortable a controller is to hold and use.
And no, you can't design something in one form factor that 100% of the populace can't bitch about. Someone will find something they don't like about anything, and others will find solace in a mutant device that they think was made specifically for them.
The DS is still a bad design, and you can clearly see the time-line of features that were thrown on to it without any regard for usability. The sticks are too close. If you have really tiny hands, that might be fine, but the goal in product design is to make it the best it possibly can be for the majority of users. I think the DS fails in this regard, with multiple aspects of it's design. The handles could be extended more, as it stands, those handles stop midway in my palm. The GameCube controller, was much more comfortable despite being a device with similar size, the handles were formed and positioned better.
The same goes for buttons, the DS buttons aren't great for usability. They are all the same size, and at a glance, the same colors. the symbols on them are too abstract for a new player. It takes awhile to remember the positions of these symbols, it's a fact it's easier for the human brain to remember things they are more familiar with, and mean more, so using ABXY (letters or numbers) allows for quicker learning, along with a strong color scheme. I can say to a new player with the 360 controller, hit the red button (they'll learn it's B in time, but red is immediate recognition). That simple. With the DS? You can't because the colors are too low in contrast with one another, they are pretty much pastel. And the colors are on the symbols only, not the entire button. It's good to have a 2 step system to recognition for such an integral part of user input. The GC took this one step farther and made sure each button had a different shape as well, there could never be confusion as to what you were hitting, and it was very easy for new users to pick up and play, especially with the giant green button being the main focus.
Triggers and sticks should be concave, to allow the fingers to rest inside. Both these are opposite on the DS3.
While I don't disagree that some people will find it perfectly comfortable, I doubt it's from first use. It's been on the market so long it's become the de facto standard for controller design, it doesn't mean it's good design.
I actually work with the designer who came up with every visual aspect of the 360, the console look, the curves, the UI, and yes, the controller. You wouldn't believe how many studies were done to get the X360 controller in the form it is today. Money and time were poured into research so that it would feel comfortable for the majority of users. Sony took a SNES pad, slapped small and awkwardly placed handles on. Did the same for the sticks, and probably didn't consult with anyone as to how well it actually functioned.
I'm not hating on Sony just to hate on Sony. I own a PS3, and it's enveloped a larger portion of my gaming time recently than any of my other systems, and I own all the other systems. I would love to use a better controller, and I hope that when the next generation comes around, they hire people to actually design a controller, not make another Frankenstein's monster.
EDIT: I should add in, the basic shape is fine. There are a number of minor tweaks that Sony could do, while keeping their iconic controller design, to vastly improve the comfort of it for the majority of users.
One last thing, why haven't third party controller makers designed controllers that look like one system but for another? How hard is it to ape a 360 controller, and just make it a PS3 controller. And Vice-versa, that way everyone can use a controller they find the most comfortable.
Just one of the many reasons why the SNES is the best controller. For reals.
On the N64, the only click I got was from the angles of the socket. My controllers survived some major abuse so I don't know whats up with that.
The analog stick modules would get damages. As I recall, the C-stick was one type and the left control stick was another. I had two controllers, one had the c-stick fail. The other had the main stick fail. I switched one out onto the other and had one controller working perfectly and another that did shit. My roomates had similar problems. Some friends in the college had it too.
And the NES controller caused so many painful numb thumbs for me, not to mentionhow poorly it sat in the hand. I still remember how TV and movies never could figure out how to hold it. They always had actors holding it with their wrists facing eachother, nearly touching or touching. Their palms spread away from eachother slightly so that they gripped the controller from below and their thumbs went up from below rather than the corners/side. So weird. Oddly, it isn't much worse than how everyone else grips them.
I see what your saying about the Dual shock design. I think people like it only because they are so used to its problems.
Your post reminded me of another controller with 'feature creep' making it less usable.
The DS (as in the handheld). Originally, it had the size that it was reasonably comfortable with slopes to give a bit better grip. As they reduced the size for portability, the ergonomics took a nose-dive. The ridge on the edge that seemed to leave a lingering pain and red line on your palms. It never seemed to have a very comfortable space for hands. The iPhone has a similar problem. Games are crazy on it because it seems like you battle the in game enemies and gravity trying to tilt it from your grip.
Yeah, the PS controllers also need to get longer handles. I mean I barely have anything to hold onto on a 360 controller
the DS/2/3 ones are like holding one of those chinese finger traps
I was going to disagree, but then I remembered that 90% of the time that I'm playing my DS it's sitting on a table and I'm pushing the buttons with my index fingers/using the touchscreen.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
I'd definitely agree that the DS Lite isn't that comfortable, but at least for me, the original DS was just awful.
Feel free to add me on whatever network, it's always more fun to play with people than alone
That's not sympathetic. :P It's just memory.
I don't like or dislike the xbox controller, but I haven't tried the 360 one. If it's the same then I'd feel the same.
I like the ps3 one because I can reach everything easily, but I don't like the triggers on either the dual shock 2 or 3.
I really dislike it's construction as well, the ps3 controller is made of shoddy plastic. If you grip it too tight, it feels like it's about to crack, you can hear bits of plastic creaking. I had the r1 and l1 buttons on my original sixaxis stop functioning well out of warranty, when I opened it up, shards of plastic came out.
I went through 3 ps2 controllers and am on my second ps3 controller. They really don't know how to make them.
If the xbox controller is more durable then that'd be a big plus in its favour imo.
The only thing I've personally heard of 'breaking' on the Xbox 360 controller--short of bashing it to pieces with a hammer--are the shoulder 'bumpers'. And that came from a controller that was thrown against the wall in anger (not exactly what you're supposed to do).
However, I'm sure other people have better idea of the durability of the controllers. DS3 controllers are probably quite sturdy too, they just don't feel as though they are.
I lost 2 PS2 controllers, but that was from sitting in a cupboard for over a year with the cords tightly wrapped around the controller, which pulled the connection. They would work if I held the cord tightly in the controller. So that wasn't really a manufacturing problem, it was me storing them stupidly.
I've got 3 PS3 controllers - 2 sixaxis and a DS3. The only issue with them is R2 is slightly more mushy than L2 on the DS3, but it never hinders gameplay. I've never even had a problem with my original PS1 or PS2. Manufacturing issues have never popped up for me. Though from saying this, my PS2, PS3, Wii and all my controllers will spontaneously fall apart when I get home.
The analogues on my 360 controller are getting kind of worn down too. If I wasn't scraping the money together for new RB instruments I'd look into picking up a new one.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
You are wrong. Many many people sit in ways that are bad for them ergonomically because they are more comfortable. Hell, another example is the standard keyboard. Many people do not experience any pain from touch typing on a standard keyboard, but that doesn't stop them from being an ergonomic nightmare.
I'll second what Synthesis was saying, too, that the bumpers are also the worst part of the controller outside of the D-pad. I've already got two bumpers that have gotten really sluggish, and that just shouldn't be for a digital button control. It's not exactly the most complicated component.
In fact, the 360 pad has always sort of struck me as great design, bad engineering. I've always see it very much as an unreliable italian sports car, like an Alfa Romeo. I feel like I'm talking about a shoddy gearbox half the time -- lots of passion put into it, it's obviously been in the hands of an artist, but then, somewhere along the line, a failed followthrough with the mechanics/manufacturing of it. And yet, I still love it to death.
The battery compartment jiggles, and very occasionally loses contact. And yet it's so tight, it has a hard time fitting many rechargeables, which are a millimeter or two thicker than alkalines. The D-Pad is terrible. We've already mentioned the analogs -- great placement, great shape, too much play. The jewel, great in practice, is the wrong type of physical button -- it should have been spring-loaded, and easier to press down, with no 'click' feedback.
But ergonomically, it's probably the most fantastic controller ever made. The colours and button labels -- ABXY and Red, Blue, Yellow, Green -- are so no-nonsense, you almost want to laugh at Sony and Nintendo. (And yes, I'm aware of the Super Famicom). Hell, the button placement is exactly what everyone wanted. In fact, I'd wager that if everyone here designed their 'perfect' controller, most would look very much like the one on the 360.
I'M A TWITTER SHITTER
No, but not everybody feels that way.
Also, the Xbox Guide button, is that what you're referring to, Recoil? I guess since it's never actually used in-game it's never really bothered me. :?
I actually like the bumpers (more than the dual shock's anyway). Really, my only complaint is that, if a controller gets thrown against a table sufficiently hard, at an angle, it'll damage the spring and cause you to loose the 'click'. It still works, but it is trickier.
That seems more like anger problems with the user than problems with the controller.
But fuck the bumpers, they're my biggest problem with the 360 controller. I would say the D-pad, but, you know, you never need to use it so it's a moot point.
It is an anger problem. I personally have only thrown a controller once, and at my couch, I think, but I've known people, and it usually leads to the bumpers.
Personally, I like the D-pad, but that's really just because the DS' D-pad is problematic for doing quarter-circles/half-circles for me personally, thereby making it pretty useless in 2D/3D fighters. It's not perfect, but at least it's usable. That's just my experience though.
Also left a sizable dent in my wall.