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Champions Online - Out Now!

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    wolfgangpgwolfgangpg Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Tag wrote: »
    Dac wrote: »
    Tag wrote: »
    Dac wrote: »
    Tag wrote: »
    That way if create a completely gimped character from venturing out of that frame work its your own fault, but nothing actually stops you.

    Yeah no, I'd pretty much quit if the game became this.

    I'm not interested in another class-based superhero MMO. They already have one of those.

    Um, you realize pretty much all the frameworks are already pretty self-viable right? (With the exception of blocks and passives). Someone who knows nothing about the game is just going to march up the ladder of a framework, and that should (and to a large extent does) work. I just think that those, as the most basic and standards of builds, should be the power level the devs balance around, rather than the alternatives of balancing for the absolute min/max or absolute haphazard.

    I strongly think people should be free to mix powers as they like, I just don't think people making bad decision in that regard (such that they come out worse than a plain frameworks) need to have their builds accommodated.


    You seem to be missing the point somewhat.

    I think it's perfectly fine for a one-tree build to be viable. If, however, going OUT of a tree would gimp my character, as you seem to suggest, it would be little different from just another class-based MMO.

    And that would be incredibly, incredibly shitty for me. The big draw of CO was that I could build what I wanted with the powers available - the ability to create a truly unique hero and not have it function like absolute ass.

    I don't think that this is an unreasonable desire.


    No no, I don't think going out of a tree SHOULD gimp your char, I think that if you leave a tree and gimp your char in the process, that's your own fault for making poor power choices. In this scenario, you've got the sure thing by sticking with the tree, and the potential benefit or loss from stepping outside that safety net.

    To be clear, my point had nothing to do with the current structure of power selection, it was merely a suggestion as to where to set the "balance bar." You'll have the people who min/max like crazy, draw from 6 trees, and excel, the people who try to do that and fail miserably, and the people who say "fuck the spreadsheets" stick within one or two frameworks and just want to play. By making the basic frameworks the bar to test the difficulty of the game, you accommodate that last group, reward the successful min/maxers, and filter out the whines of the people who haphazardly threw together a build that makes no sense.

    Excellent points. I don't have much to add ... but I am tired of the whines about wanting to make this game super easy. If it becomes super easy you will quit quickly because super easy is super boring.

    wolfgangpg on
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    PikaPuffPikaPuff Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Narbus wrote: »
    PikaPuff wrote: »
    I'm seeing a lot of posts wondering why they can't have everything on their first character right away right now when I've never seen any MMO where this happened with a first character without higher level character help.

    I'm going away now so i won't be replying to any replies for maybe 20hours, and if not that, then when I gethome on Tuesday. :3

    it's really hard to respec in CoX, so i don't see a difference with CoX and CO in that respect. and again, weather it's right or wrong, I like to represent the unrepresented view of an arguement. i'd like cheapo and fullrespecs, too.
    What? No it's not. It's stupidly easy to respec in CoX.
    [...]After [...] 9 months
    [...] every single time a new issue comes out,
    [...] respec recipes are available (though pricey)
    [...]THREE respec trials have been so dumbed down that they are yours to fail at this point.
    aside from the trials being "easier," which I can't argue without information, your points just help my arguement? And I'm guessing without guides and having done it before on other characters, you wouldn't pass the trials.

    PikaPuff on
    jCyyTSo.png
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    IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    So what is the actual official SG for PA now?

    Incenjucar on
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    WrenWren ninja_bird Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    wolfgangpg wrote: »
    Wren wrote: »
    what are we bitching about now

    That I should be able to take butter knife, water pistol and heal and still be able to solo the game.

    sounds like a good combo. got your melee, ranged and heal ability right there.

    Wren on
    tf2sig.jpg
    TF2 - Wren BF3: Wren-fu
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    ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit ceterum censeoRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    So what is the actual official SG for PA now?

    PACT I think, isn't it?

    Elldren on
    fuck gendered marketing
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    ErragalErragal Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    wolfgangpg wrote: »
    Tag wrote: »


    No no, I don't think going out of a tree SHOULD gimp your char, I think that if you leave a tree and gimp your char in the process, that's your own fault for making poor power choices. In this scenario, you've got the sure thing by sticking with the tree, and the potential benefit or loss from stepping outside that safety net.

    To be clear, my point had nothing to do with the current structure of power selection, it was merely a suggestion as to where to set the "balance bar." You'll have the people who min/max like crazy, draw from 6 trees, and excel, the people who try to do that and fail miserably, and the people who say "fuck the spreadsheets" stick within one or two frameworks and just want to play. By making the basic frameworks the bar to test the difficulty of the game, you accommodate that last group, reward the successful min/maxers, and filter out the whines of the people who haphazardly threw together a build that makes no sense.

    Excellent points.

    That's exactly what anyone should want. It's also important to point out there are min-max things that are TOO powerful as well, and it's not a bad thing when they're brought down to the realm of reasonability.

    Erragal on
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    WrenWren ninja_bird Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    its the worst SG name ever. I feel bad for having it under my name

    Wren on
    tf2sig.jpg
    TF2 - Wren BF3: Wren-fu
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    GONG-00GONG-00 Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I think one of the primary focuses of the dev team right now should be to FULLY document every power so that people can make informed choices (if they choose to). Specifically, they need to prominently list at the top of each power which stat(s) influence the potency of that particular power. So if I were to pick Invulnerability, the power description would list STR and CON at the top which if I have EGO and END as my super stats, I can see that invulnerability might not be for me.

    GONG-00 on
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    YoshuaYoshua Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    PikaPuff wrote: »
    Narbus wrote: »
    PikaPuff wrote: »
    I'm seeing a lot of posts wondering why they can't have everything on their first character right away right now when I've never seen any MMO where this happened with a first character without higher level character help.

    I'm going away now so i won't be replying to any replies for maybe 20hours, and if not that, then when I gethome on Tuesday. :3

    it's really hard to respec in CoX, so i don't see a difference with CoX and CO in that respect. and again, weather it's right or wrong, I like to represent the unrepresented view of an arguement. i'd like cheapo and fullrespecs, too.
    What? No it's not. It's stupidly easy to respec in CoX.
    [...]After [...] 9 months
    [...] every single time a new issue comes out,
    [...] respec recipes are available (though pricey)
    [...]THREE respec trials have been so dumbed down that they are yours to fail at this point.
    aside from the trials being "easier," which I can't argue without information, your points just help my arguement? And I'm guessing without guides and having done it before on other characters, you wouldn't pass the trials.

    It is easier in CoX, just more limited. At least till they fix respec costs or the economy in such a way that it is feasible to actually use the retcon system before level 40. (and even then, not requiring weeks of cash grinding)

    Yoshua on
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    ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit ceterum censeoRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Wren wrote: »
    its the worst SG name ever. I feel bad for having it under my name

    It is simple and straightforward
    and long and boring

    Elldren on
    fuck gendered marketing
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    WrenWren ninja_bird Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    game certainly needs way more detailed information. like sometimes something will say it "decreases defenses" but I'm all, which and by how much!? damn you ui!

    also

    screenshot_2009-09-03-10-15-46.jpg

    KABOOM!

    Wren on
    tf2sig.jpg
    TF2 - Wren BF3: Wren-fu
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    IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Elldren wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    So what is the actual official SG for PA now?

    PACT I think, isn't it?

    This is why I'm asking. :P

    Incenjucar on
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    YoshuaYoshua Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Wren wrote: »
    its the worst SG name ever. I feel bad for having it under my name

    Most of the CoX ones were far worse.

    Yoshua on
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    Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2009
    PikaPuff wrote: »
    aside from the trials being "easier," which I can't argue without information, your points just help my arguement? And I'm guessing without guides and having done it before on other characters, you wouldn't pass the trials.

    The trials are all group content. Chances are VERY high that by the time you reach the first one you have met someone that has done them or someone knows how they work.

    Just_Bri_Thanks on
    ...and when you are done with that; take a folding
    chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
  • Options
    mrflippymrflippy Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Wren wrote: »
    wolfgangpg wrote: »
    Wren wrote: »
    what are we bitching about now

    That I should be able to take butter knife, water pistol and heal and still be able to solo the game.

    sounds like a good combo. got your melee, ranged and heal ability right there.

    No area powers though. Maybe pick up water balloon at some point, but then we're getting into actually planning out a character.

    mrflippy on
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    WrenWren ninja_bird Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    mrflippy wrote: »
    Wren wrote: »
    wolfgangpg wrote: »
    Wren wrote: »
    what are we bitching about now

    That I should be able to take butter knife, water pistol and heal and still be able to solo the game.

    sounds like a good combo. got your melee, ranged and heal ability right there.

    No area powers though. Maybe pick up water balloon at some point, but then we're getting into actually planning out a character.

    I assumed the water gun had a splash effect. at least an advantage that turned it into one

    Wren on
    tf2sig.jpg
    TF2 - Wren BF3: Wren-fu
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    Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2009
    Wren wrote: »
    its the worst SG name ever. I feel bad for having it under my name

    You could always join me in Classification Level Ultraviolet, even though that name has nothing to do with PA.

    Just_Bri_Thanks on
    ...and when you are done with that; take a folding
    chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
  • Options
    mrflippymrflippy Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Elldren wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    So what is the actual official SG for PA now?

    PACT I think, isn't it?

    This is why I'm asking. :P

    I thought it was switched to "Penny Arcade Crimefighting Team" or something?

    Which, really, I think is worse than either of the names we had previously, but at least we're all in one place.

    mrflippy on
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    mrflippymrflippy Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Wren wrote: »
    mrflippy wrote: »
    Wren wrote: »
    wolfgangpg wrote: »
    Wren wrote: »
    what are we bitching about now

    That I should be able to take butter knife, water pistol and heal and still be able to solo the game.

    sounds like a good combo. got your melee, ranged and heal ability right there.

    No area powers though. Maybe pick up water balloon at some point, but then we're getting into actually planning out a character.

    I assumed the water gun had a splash effect. at least an advantage that turned it into one

    Oh yeah I forgot about that. Wasn't it sort of buggy though?

    mrflippy on
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    NarbusNarbus Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Wren wrote: »
    its the worst SG name ever. I feel bad for having it under my name

    "Powers Allegory"

    What does that even mean?

    Narbus on
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    AumniAumni Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    mrflippy wrote: »
    Wren wrote: »
    mrflippy wrote: »
    Wren wrote: »
    wolfgangpg wrote: »
    Wren wrote: »
    what are we bitching about now

    That I should be able to take butter knife, water pistol and heal and still be able to solo the game.

    sounds like a good combo. got your melee, ranged and heal ability right there.

    No area powers though. Maybe pick up water balloon at some point, but then we're getting into actually planning out a character.

    I assumed the water gun had a splash effect. at least an advantage that turned it into one

    Oh yeah I forgot about that. Wasn't it sort of buggy though?

    No, it had a bug bayonnet though.

    Aumni on
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/aumni/ Battlenet: Aumni#1978 GW2: Aumni.1425 PSN: Aumnius
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    ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit ceterum censeoRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Narbus wrote: »
    Wren wrote: »
    its the worst SG name ever. I feel bad for having it under my name

    "Powers Allegory"

    What does that even mean?

    See, that one is actually clever.

    Elldren on
    fuck gendered marketing
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    LawndartLawndart Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Elldren wrote: »
    Narbus wrote: »
    Wren wrote: »
    its the worst SG name ever. I feel bad for having it under my name

    "Powers Allegory"

    What does that even mean?

    See, that one is actually clever.

    How?

    Unless I missed where "Two words that make no sense together but begin with P and A" is defined as clever, in which case I humbly suggest we change the CO SG name to Perpendicular Apricots.

    Lawndart on
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    WrenWren ninja_bird Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    hehe perpendicular apricots..

    like nutsacks

    Wren on
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    TF2 - Wren BF3: Wren-fu
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    GnomeTankGnomeTank What the what? Portland, OregonRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Actually I like Perpendicular Apricots

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
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    zenpotatozenpotato Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    The Old One... he is coming for your dreams, for they are delicious to him.

    2009-09-03_0856.png

    In the meantime, he will be devouring the enemies of Man.

    zenpotato on
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    ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit ceterum censeoRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Lawndart wrote: »
    Elldren wrote: »
    Narbus wrote: »
    Wren wrote: »
    its the worst SG name ever. I feel bad for having it under my name

    "Powers Allegory"

    What does that even mean?

    See, that one is actually clever.

    How?

    Unless I missed where "Two words that make no sense together but begin with P and A" is defined as clever, in which case I humbly suggest we change the CO SG name to Perpendicular Apricots.

    ... I never even noticed the initials.

    It's a superhero game. Superheros are nothing if not allegorical depictions of various powers.

    Elldren on
    fuck gendered marketing
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    zenpotatozenpotato Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Allegory != metaphor.

    zenpotato on
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    ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit ceterum censeoRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    zenpotato wrote: »
    Allegory != metaphor.

    Right. Metaphors are phrases.

    Elldren on
    fuck gendered marketing
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    ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    GnomeTank wrote: »
    Actually I like Perpendicular Apricots

    Arch on
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    GnomeTankGnomeTank What the what? Portland, OregonRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Is anyone working on a new OP? If not, I am going to C&P this one, start a new thread, and then edit from there as people suggest stuff.

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
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    YoshuaYoshua Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    GnomeTank wrote: »
    Is anyone working on a new OP? If not, I am going to C&P this one, start a new thread, and then edit from there as people suggest stuff.

    Needs more screen caps of cat girls, demons, and anime girls in battle lingerie.

    Yoshua on
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    LawndartLawndart Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Elldren wrote: »
    ... I never even noticed the initials.

    It's a superhero game. Superheros are nothing if not allegorical depictions of various powers.

    You didn't notice that the Penny Arcade supergroup in CoH was called Power's Allegory and the CoV one was called Power's Affliction?

    And no, superheroes are nothing if not literal depictions of various powers. The Human Torch, for example, is not some normal guy spreading the light of knowledge to the downtrodden. He's a dude who can set himself on fire.

    That's not an allegory.

    Lawndart on
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    NarbusNarbus Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    PikaPuff wrote: »
    Narbus wrote: »
    PikaPuff wrote: »
    I'm seeing a lot of posts wondering why they can't have everything on their first character right away right now when I've never seen any MMO where this happened with a first character without higher level character help.

    I'm going away now so i won't be replying to any replies for maybe 20hours, and if not that, then when I gethome on Tuesday. :3

    it's really hard to respec in CoX, so i don't see a difference with CoX and CO in that respect. and again, weather it's right or wrong, I like to represent the unrepresented view of an arguement. i'd like cheapo and fullrespecs, too.
    What? No it's not. It's stupidly easy to respec in CoX.
    [...]After [...] 9 months
    [...] every single time a new issue comes out,
    [...] respec recipes are available (though pricey)
    [...]THREE respec trials have been so dumbed down that they are yours to fail at this point.
    aside from the trials being "easier," which I can't argue without information, your points just help my arguement? And I'm guessing without guides and having done it before on other characters, you wouldn't pass the trials.

    Yes, editing out the bit about every single character you have made and will ever make ever getting a free respec after nine months does make it look like you're right. Well played.
    And no, the trials are stupidly straightforward. They used to be complicated but people complained so they dumbed it down.

    Also for $10 (realmoney) you can just buy one outright. It is important to note that the community laughed when they announced this option because of the prevalence of respec available in the game proper.

    Oh also you've established that just because something is a big thing it doesn't have to cost a ton of money, and in fact making it cost a ton of money may turn away both current and potential subscribers. Also it is important for companies to look at what their competition offers (CoX with respec trials/recipes/vet rewards/freespecs, WoW with respec stones, etc etc and so on), and in fact locking some of these big QoL items behind "certain levels" or "god that's a lot of money" when the competition doesn't is silly.

    Narbus on
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    GnomeTankGnomeTank What the what? Portland, OregonRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Hmm, I wonder if Pedophiles Anonymous would go ever well...

    No, probably not.

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
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    TagTag Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Lawndart wrote: »
    Elldren wrote: »
    ... I never even noticed the initials.

    It's a superhero game. Superheros are nothing if not allegorical depictions of various powers.

    You didn't notice that the Penny Arcade supergroup in CoH was called Power's Allegory and the CoV one was called Power's Affliction?

    And no, superheroes are nothing if not literal depictions of various powers. The Human Torch, for example, is not some normal guy spreading the light of knowledge to the downtrodden. He's a dude who can set himself on fire.

    That's not an allegory.

    What if he just flies around forcing people to look at the shadows they cast from his self immolation?

    Tag on
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    ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit ceterum censeoRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Lawndart wrote: »
    Elldren wrote: »
    ... I never even noticed the initials.

    It's a superhero game. Superheros are nothing if not allegorical depictions of various powers.

    You didn't notice that the Penny Arcade supergroup in CoH was called Power's Allegory and the CoV one was called Power's Affliction?

    And no, superheroes are nothing if not literal depictions of various powers. The Human Torch, for example, is not some normal guy spreading the light of knowledge to the downtrodden. He's a dude who can set himself on fire.

    That's not an allegory.

    not what I'm talking about.

    x-men is an allegory on the civil rights movement.

    spider-man is a parable on responsibility.

    I thought this was shit everyone knew.

    edit: and no, I didn't play CoX with you guys, so I didn't.

    Elldren on
    fuck gendered marketing
  • Options
    MordrackMordrack Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Lawndart wrote: »
    Elldren wrote: »
    ... I never even noticed the initials.

    It's a superhero game. Superheros are nothing if not allegorical depictions of various powers.

    You didn't notice that the Penny Arcade supergroup in CoH was called Power's Allegory and the CoV one was called Power's Affliction?

    And no, superheroes are nothing if not literal depictions of various powers. The Human Torch, for example, is not some normal guy spreading the light of knowledge to the downtrodden. He's a dude who can set himself on fire.

    That's not an allegory.
    Your avatar makes that even more awesome, Lawndart.

    Mordrack on
    steam_sig.png
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    GnomeTankGnomeTank What the what? Portland, OregonRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    New thread is up: http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t=99795

    Hit me with suggestions you want in the OP in that thread.

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
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    PikaPuffPikaPuff Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Also, I think PikaPuff is going to change his tune regarding respecs when he finds out that he can't solo worth a shit in balanced/offensive mode anymore, and he's too poor to respec out of the now-useless healing drones that previously kept him alive.
    pre-patch i was already fucked when I hit monster island. my original plan was to save up resource onother characters to afford what i needed to do with my main. sooooooooo myy tune's the same.

    PikaPuff on
    jCyyTSo.png
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