MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited September 2015
Finished this. NO HOLDS BARRED SPOILERS
WHAT DID I JUST SAY? WHY DID YOU CLICK THIS? GOE AWAYE!
I write the same way. Bits and pieces that I then have to cobbled together and then rewrite to make flow. And then rewrite. And then tweak that bit, and again, and again.
It's fairly obvious that this was still a work in progress. It was put together, but much of it needed editing, tweaking, and so on.
It has everything the story needs, and its a good story. A really good story. It flows, its tense, it works. It has really strong emotional moments. The main character has a whole arc that builds up to an amazing conclusion, and her maturation over the course of the book from a young powerful witch, still not quite fully sure of herself, into this incredible pillar of strength, well it was aweinspiring to watch.
When she burned the elves to death, that was a real dark moment. A real dark moment. And nanny handled it perfectly. And I really get the sense she handled it so well because she's seen this before. She's dealt with that for years.
She frequently spoke and acted and dealt with situations as Granny does, and this happened more and more over the course of the book, without every becoming as crotchety as Granny is. She would be stern, but also laugh. Empathic and caring, then ferocious and razor sharp. The whole layered land under wave thing her character has been building into from the start. You really understand why that is so strong by the end.
In many ways, I felt like this is a little bit what a story of Granny Weatherwax in her mid twenties would have been like, in terms of displays of overt power. Before she got the hang of subtle. But without the character flaw of immense pride. Tiffany's strength is born from the strong, firm guiding kindness of the shepherd guarding his idiot sheep from themselves. Granny's strength was born of, basically, nastiness that she decided not to carry out, but to do the opposite instead, as hard as she could, and along with that decision was the resolve to fight that nastiness in anyone else too, equally as hard. So they did the same things, but for different reasons, and that was expressed really well in the little things, the pleasantness that Tiffany would show that Granny wouldn't have. And she was, I think, portrayed as much stronger for it. Empathy that isn't weakness, but a source of strength more powerful than any other. Probably best shown by the King of the elves and the shed. That was fantastic. Granny wouldn't have done that. Granny wouldn't have even gone to see him. Her pride wouldn't have let her, ever.
That isn't to say Tiffany is without flaws, but her flaws, her occasional naivete, her mistakes, her self doubts, and insecurities, the trick is with her personality she can actually turn her flaws into strengths. Her doubts make her question herself, and then she gives herself the right answers. And if she can't figure out the answer, she works out the best course of action to find it, and then takes it. If that means seeking help from others, she does that. She's very logical and straightforward about it.
One of her flaws is also that she is sometimes a little too literal. I liked how Geoffrey fixed a problem Tiffany never considered: the bad boots, because she was focusing too much on fixing the symptoms.
It's a wonderful story and has a sense of vast epicness that hasn't been in many of his other books that I really enjoyed.
But it's also lacking detail where before there would be, and the footnotes and such are kind of, how do I put it, very straightforward. Sort of like a bedtime story, where the storyteller just tells you how things are matter of factly. He usually alludes to that kind of thing, plays with words more, uses puns liberally. Turning them into in jokes for those who already knew that stuff from before.
Several characters are also introduced with a cursory description, and jokes are played off with them, but you don't know anything about their personality, only what they do. Like long tall fat short sally. She was a gag, and nothing more.
Other than the nac mac feegle, a lot of the time there are barely any contractions in the dialogue. Almost everyone speaks extremely formally. You can kind of see where he's been able to go back and fix up the dialogue, because those bits sound more lively and natural. But because it doesn't happen consistently, sometimes Nanny Ogg is speaking the same way as Tiffany, or Geoffrey, and other times she's pure Ogg again. A lot of "She said. He said." as well.
The dialogue for each person is still in character, in terms of what they say and the feelings they express. But their style of speaking is frequently similar.
It has absolutely fantastic flow, a great story, but it's pretty clear he wasn't done with it yet.
For example, that sense of epicness, of vast scale, where the small details aren't quite so focused on. That used to be a feature of his earlier works. Strata, Dark Side of the Sun, they both have this. Colour of Magic and Light Fantastic also, and the earlier discworld books too.
As he got better at writing the epicness was more subtle, the conflicts and consequences more personal, the scales got smaller but somehow the stakes got larger.
I actually love his epic stuff, but I know he preferred to poke fun at it.
So I can't help but feel that if he had the time, this book would have poked more fun at itself. With those earlier books, he hadn't matured enough to do that, but with this one, it's clear he hadn't had enough time.
I'm glad it was written and I'm glad I got to read it. But I'm also really sad now, for what could have been, not just in the other stories he wanted to write, but for this one.
On her own turf, on the chalk, Tiffany by the end of this book is probably the strongest person in this universe. I would actually bet on her over Death, if she was on the chalk. Not that it would ever come to that. But if she ever wanted to, I would. So thank christ she's so kind, because Tiffany gone to the dark would be the end of everything.
But since she is kind, I feel that if there is another major drama that calls for her to deal with it, she will be able to, handily. Not just because she's strong, but also because she isn't so prideful she tries to work alone and gets in her own way. And that, I think, gives the series a closure, a sense of "It'll all work out in the end" it needed. I'm grateful he gave us that.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Granny's strength was born of, basically, nastiness that she decided not to carry out, but to do the opposite instead, as hard as she could, and along with that decision was the resolve to fight that nastiness in anyone else too, equally as hard.
The alternate universe Discworld where Lily Weatherwax was "the good one" is a frightening place to contemplate.
Granny's strength was born of, basically, nastiness that she decided not to carry out, but to do the opposite instead, as hard as she could, and along with that decision was the resolve to fight that nastiness in anyone else too, equally as hard.
The alternate universe Discworld where Lily Weatherwax was "the good one" is a frightening place to contemplate.
That series would be, like, two books long, ending with either 1) Esmeralda cackling from her throne of bones or 2) Gytha Ogg bringing her down, because Esmeralda is fighting for her pride, but Gytha is fighting for her kids.
Granny's strength was born of, basically, nastiness that she decided not to carry out, but to do the opposite instead, as hard as she could, and along with that decision was the resolve to fight that nastiness in anyone else too, equally as hard.
The alternate universe Discworld where Lily Weatherwax was "the good one" is a frightening place to contemplate.
That series would be, like, two books long, ending with either 1) Esmeralda cackling from her throne of bones or 2) Gytha Ogg bringing her down, because Esmeralda is fighting for her pride, but Gytha is fighting for her kids.
Although to quote Drumknott out of context, "That one looks like it would go down to the judges."
Granny's strength was born of, basically, nastiness that she decided not to carry out, but to do the opposite instead, as hard as she could, and along with that decision was the resolve to fight that nastiness in anyone else too, equally as hard.
The alternate universe Discworld where Lily Weatherwax was "the good one" is a frightening place to contemplate.
That's actually the most important Granny Weatherwax book, although you wouldn't think it at first glance.
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited September 2015
So I just found out something related to this book ENDING SPOILERS
Neil Gaiman said he originally wanted a different ending.
Granny Weatherwax was originally supposed to have transferred her consciousness to You, which is why there are hints in the book, and at the end she was supposed to basically say "I am leaving on my own terms now" and only then would Death turn up to take her for good.
But he didn't have time to finish writing that ending.
Goddam.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Granny's strength was born of, basically, nastiness that she decided not to carry out, but to do the opposite instead, as hard as she could, and along with that decision was the resolve to fight that nastiness in anyone else too, equally as hard.
The alternate universe Discworld where Lily Weatherwax was "the good one" is a frightening place to contemplate.
That's actually the most important Granny Weatherwax book, although you wouldn't think it at first glance.
I think you're misdirecting where her anger was pointed. It wasn't that she had to be good when she wanted to be evil, it was that Lily's actions, by conforming to the start of such a powerful story, locked Granny into a certain narrative path where she had no choice. It was Lily's whole thing. Granny couldn't run off with Ridicully or even just off to Herseba or whatever because of Lily. Moreover the story shaped her so she wouldn't want to. If Granny really wanted to be nasty while being the good one she certainly could have made every bodies life a living hell much worse than what Lily managed. Carpe Jugulum even discussed it a bit and how Granny knows how terrible she would be.
So I just found out something related to this book ENDING SPOILERS
Neil Gaiman said he originally wanted a different ending.
Granny Weatherwax was originally supposed to have transferred her consciousness to You, which is why there are hints in the book, and at the end she was supposed to basically say "I am leaving on my own terms now" and only then would Death turn up to take her for good.
But he didn't have time to finish writing that ending.
Goddam.
Yup, kinda mixed on that.
It was nice to see it spearheaded by Tiffany and her methods, her assumption of the role in her own way rather than trying to be an imitation of Granny.
On the other hand I have faith that if Terry had the time he would have absolutely made it work and it could have been great and a very different sort of send off for Granny than one where she quietly lies down and dies.
Without going into too much detail, I'm currently in an addiction centre. I've been giving inspirational talks each morning and I wanted to do one around the nature of belief and how it is the individual that gives faith power. I told the patients of how Mightily Oats slew a vampire that sought only to control the minds of others, with particular emphasis on the quote:
"Everywhere I look, I see something holy."
It struck a chord, despite most people here being atheists.
Half the patients have asked for a copy of Carpe Jugulum on the weekly book run.
If Sir Terry was alive, I reckon he'd be really happy about that.
ALRIGHT FINE I GOT AN AVATAR
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silence1186Character shields down!As a wingmanRegistered Userregular
Without going into too much detail, I'm currently in an addiction centre. I've been giving inspirational talks each morning and I wanted to do one around the nature of belief and how it is the individual that gives faith power. I told the patients of how Mightily Oats slew a vampire that sought only to control the minds of others, with particular emphasis on the quote:
"Everywhere I look, I see something holy."
It struck a chord, despite most people here being atheists.
Half the patients have asked for a copy of Carpe Jugulum on the weekly book run.
If Sir Terry was alive, I reckon he'd be really happy about that.
Oats and Granny's trip over the mountain has some of the best dialogue I've ever read.
“Terrible thing, having to burn all them words, though.”
“The worthwhile ones don’t burn.”
“You’re not too stupid, for all that you wear a funny hat,” said Granny.
Although the bit where Granny happens to mention what would happen if she really did think there was a god that gave two shit about people is... terrifying
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TraceGNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam WeRegistered Userregular
"Blessings be upon this house," said Granny Weatherwax. In much the same tone of voice have people said, 'Eat hot lead, Kincaid.'
Granny's strength was born of, basically, nastiness that she decided not to carry out, but to do the opposite instead, as hard as she could, and along with that decision was the resolve to fight that nastiness in anyone else too, equally as hard.
The alternate universe Discworld where Lily Weatherwax was "the good one" is a frightening place to contemplate.
That's actually the most important Granny Weatherwax book, although you wouldn't think it at first glance.
I think you're misdirecting where her anger was pointed. It wasn't that she had to be good when she wanted to be evil, it was that Lily's actions, by conforming to the start of such a powerful story, locked Granny into a certain narrative path where she had no choice. It was Lily's whole thing. Granny couldn't run off with Ridicully or even just off to Herseba or whatever because of Lily. Moreover the story shaped her so she wouldn't want to. If Granny really wanted to be nasty while being the good one she certainly could have made every bodies life a living hell much worse than what Lily managed. Carpe Jugulum even discussed it a bit and how Granny knows how terrible she would be.
Nah that isn't what I meant by what I said.
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Without going into too much detail, I'm currently in an addiction centre. I've been giving inspirational talks each morning and I wanted to do one around the nature of belief and how it is the individual that gives faith power. I told the patients of how Mightily Oats slew a vampire that sought only to control the minds of others, with particular emphasis on the quote:
"Everywhere I look, I see something holy."
It struck a chord, despite most people here being atheists.
Half the patients have asked for a copy of Carpe Jugulum on the weekly book run.
If Sir Terry was alive, I reckon he'd be really happy about that.
Sorry to quote myself, but...
I've found so much new meaning in the Discworld series since arriving here (I'm rereading the whole collection for about the eighth time) and now I really miss him all over again... but I'm so thankful for him and his talent to ever have existed, and grateful to be able to draw strength from it, and to laugh as I go. Thank you Sir Terry.
Every time I come in here and read the latest example of someone's favourite quote, or sequence, from one of his books it makes me smile.
And then I remember what has happened and that there will not be another Discworld book and that makes me sad again.
But in honour of Sir Terry, I just want to leave one of my own favourites....
Even the meek, and the blind, and the voiceless have gods.
Always liked Hogfather for that sort of thing.
YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.
"Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—"
Every time I come in here and read the latest example of someone's favourite quote, or sequence, from one of his books it makes me smile.
And then I remember what has happened and that there will not be another Discworld book and that makes me sad again.
But in honour of Sir Terry, I just want to leave one of my own favourites....
Even the meek, and the blind, and the voiceless have gods.
Always liked Hogfather for that sort of thing.
YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.
"Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—"
MY POINT EXACTLY.
This is actually my least favourite Pratchett quote because Death's argument makes no sense.
If I take the universe and grind it down to the finest powder and sieve it through the finest sieve, I won't find any atom of "justice", but neither will I find an atom of "horse" or "chair" or even "air" (depending on how finely you grind it, only hydrogen and carbon and other elements, or sub-atomic particles). I certainly won't find atoms of "intelligence" or "thought". But horses, chairs and air exist, I would argue that thoughts and intelligence exists, too, so why doesn't justice? They are all emergent properties.
Sic transit gloria mundi.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I've written this post about three times, and I've never gotten it to be satisfying, so I'll just say you're missing the point and be done.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
Completely.
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
If I misinterpreted the scene (which is entirely possible), I hope someone can explain it to me.
My takeaway from the scene is that "justice" and "mercy" etc don't exist, and are merely fables humans make up and believe in to make life bearable. Neither Susan (or anyone else) ever argues that Death's reductionist argument is nonsense; Susan's argument is that the belief in these concepts is necessary for humans to function, but they don't actually exist.
I'd argue that neither "computer" atoms nor "justice" molecules exist in nature (certainly not if you grind the universe down to subatomic particles), yet both computers and justice are things humans create out of other stuff, not merely things we believe exist because it's a comforting thought.
(And don't take this to mean I don't like Terry Pratchett or Hogfather; I do, I just don't like this particular part of that book. (Possibly due to me misinterpreting it; but then I need someone to enlighten me.))
Death is just restating Mackies argument from queerness. The point of the argument being that the existence of "ethical properties" doesn't seem to conform with any kind of scientific naturalism on the face of it.
The rebuttal to this argument is that this does not neccisarilly imply they could not be invented.
"Of course there are entities that meet these criteria. It's true that they are queer sorts of entities and that knowing them isn't like anything else. But that doesn't mean that they don't exist.... For it is the most familiar fact of human life that the world contains entities that can tell us what to do and make us do it. They are people, and the other animals."
That's the point of the book. Justice and mercy are bizarre sorts of fictions, but none the less we make them "real" by believing in them. Like the entities in the book who literally become real through belief.
hold on, let me put my nerdier glasses on for this one:
I think firstly you have to keep in mind that Death was more likely using Atom and Molecule in the Leucippus sense, that the universe is made of non divisible elements that carry in them the essence of what they combine to make. An interesting philosophy but one that leads a person to believe that his pants are, at least partly, made of fire.
Pratchett is also a big D&D nerd, which doesn't seem like much news but D&D at it's core has a rather unique ethical philosophy. In it Good, Evil, Justice and Chaos are not subjective, they are quantifiable elements of the universe that influence all sentient being in it's universe. In that universe you can grind down the universe and find justice and mercy, hell you can mine it and make swords out of it and everything, hell it even has it's own language and you can speak Chaotic Good. But all that is because ultimately there are arbiters of Good and Evil, the players who can come to an agreement on what is just and what isn't, though probably not before a lot of shouting and quoting of rules.
Incidentally, if you ever want to know what evil lurks in the hearts of men, have them play Chaotic Evil for a day.
Any way... it's either that or Pratchett just likes grinding things down:
'I Suggest You Take Me And Smash Me And Grind The Bits Into Fragments And Pound The Fragments Into Powder And Mill Them Again To The Finest Dust There Can Be, And I Believe You Will Not Find A Single Atom Of Life-'
'True! Let's do it!'
'However, In Order To Test This Fully, One Of You Must Volunteer To Undergo The Same Process.'
There was silence.
'That's not fair,' said a priest, after a while. 'All anyone has to do is bake up your dust again and you'll be alive...'
There was more silence.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
edited September 2015
The point is that there is more to the construction of the universe than physics, chemistry and biology.
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Agreed.
It's fairly obvious that this was still a work in progress. It was put together, but much of it needed editing, tweaking, and so on.
It has everything the story needs, and its a good story. A really good story. It flows, its tense, it works. It has really strong emotional moments. The main character has a whole arc that builds up to an amazing conclusion, and her maturation over the course of the book from a young powerful witch, still not quite fully sure of herself, into this incredible pillar of strength, well it was aweinspiring to watch.
When she burned the elves to death, that was a real dark moment. A real dark moment. And nanny handled it perfectly. And I really get the sense she handled it so well because she's seen this before. She's dealt with that for years.
She frequently spoke and acted and dealt with situations as Granny does, and this happened more and more over the course of the book, without every becoming as crotchety as Granny is. She would be stern, but also laugh. Empathic and caring, then ferocious and razor sharp. The whole layered land under wave thing her character has been building into from the start. You really understand why that is so strong by the end.
In many ways, I felt like this is a little bit what a story of Granny Weatherwax in her mid twenties would have been like, in terms of displays of overt power. Before she got the hang of subtle. But without the character flaw of immense pride. Tiffany's strength is born from the strong, firm guiding kindness of the shepherd guarding his idiot sheep from themselves. Granny's strength was born of, basically, nastiness that she decided not to carry out, but to do the opposite instead, as hard as she could, and along with that decision was the resolve to fight that nastiness in anyone else too, equally as hard. So they did the same things, but for different reasons, and that was expressed really well in the little things, the pleasantness that Tiffany would show that Granny wouldn't have. And she was, I think, portrayed as much stronger for it. Empathy that isn't weakness, but a source of strength more powerful than any other. Probably best shown by the King of the elves and the shed. That was fantastic. Granny wouldn't have done that. Granny wouldn't have even gone to see him. Her pride wouldn't have let her, ever.
That isn't to say Tiffany is without flaws, but her flaws, her occasional naivete, her mistakes, her self doubts, and insecurities, the trick is with her personality she can actually turn her flaws into strengths. Her doubts make her question herself, and then she gives herself the right answers. And if she can't figure out the answer, she works out the best course of action to find it, and then takes it. If that means seeking help from others, she does that. She's very logical and straightforward about it.
One of her flaws is also that she is sometimes a little too literal. I liked how Geoffrey fixed a problem Tiffany never considered: the bad boots, because she was focusing too much on fixing the symptoms.
It's a wonderful story and has a sense of vast epicness that hasn't been in many of his other books that I really enjoyed.
But it's also lacking detail where before there would be, and the footnotes and such are kind of, how do I put it, very straightforward. Sort of like a bedtime story, where the storyteller just tells you how things are matter of factly. He usually alludes to that kind of thing, plays with words more, uses puns liberally. Turning them into in jokes for those who already knew that stuff from before.
Several characters are also introduced with a cursory description, and jokes are played off with them, but you don't know anything about their personality, only what they do. Like long tall fat short sally. She was a gag, and nothing more.
Other than the nac mac feegle, a lot of the time there are barely any contractions in the dialogue. Almost everyone speaks extremely formally. You can kind of see where he's been able to go back and fix up the dialogue, because those bits sound more lively and natural. But because it doesn't happen consistently, sometimes Nanny Ogg is speaking the same way as Tiffany, or Geoffrey, and other times she's pure Ogg again. A lot of "She said. He said." as well.
The dialogue for each person is still in character, in terms of what they say and the feelings they express. But their style of speaking is frequently similar.
It has absolutely fantastic flow, a great story, but it's pretty clear he wasn't done with it yet.
For example, that sense of epicness, of vast scale, where the small details aren't quite so focused on. That used to be a feature of his earlier works. Strata, Dark Side of the Sun, they both have this. Colour of Magic and Light Fantastic also, and the earlier discworld books too.
As he got better at writing the epicness was more subtle, the conflicts and consequences more personal, the scales got smaller but somehow the stakes got larger.
I actually love his epic stuff, but I know he preferred to poke fun at it.
So I can't help but feel that if he had the time, this book would have poked more fun at itself. With those earlier books, he hadn't matured enough to do that, but with this one, it's clear he hadn't had enough time.
I'm glad it was written and I'm glad I got to read it. But I'm also really sad now, for what could have been, not just in the other stories he wanted to write, but for this one.
On her own turf, on the chalk, Tiffany by the end of this book is probably the strongest person in this universe. I would actually bet on her over Death, if she was on the chalk. Not that it would ever come to that. But if she ever wanted to, I would. So thank christ she's so kind, because Tiffany gone to the dark would be the end of everything.
But since she is kind, I feel that if there is another major drama that calls for her to deal with it, she will be able to, handily. Not just because she's strong, but also because she isn't so prideful she tries to work alone and gets in her own way. And that, I think, gives the series a closure, a sense of "It'll all work out in the end" it needed. I'm grateful he gave us that.
The alternate universe Discworld where Lily Weatherwax was "the good one" is a frightening place to contemplate.
That series would be, like, two books long, ending with either 1) Esmeralda cackling from her throne of bones or 2) Gytha Ogg bringing her down, because Esmeralda is fighting for her pride, but Gytha is fighting for her kids.
Although to quote Drumknott out of context, "That one looks like it would go down to the judges."
That's actually the most important Granny Weatherwax book, although you wouldn't think it at first glance.
Granny Weatherwax was originally supposed to have transferred her consciousness to You, which is why there are hints in the book, and at the end she was supposed to basically say "I am leaving on my own terms now" and only then would Death turn up to take her for good.
But he didn't have time to finish writing that ending.
Goddam.
I think you're misdirecting where her anger was pointed. It wasn't that she had to be good when she wanted to be evil, it was that Lily's actions, by conforming to the start of such a powerful story, locked Granny into a certain narrative path where she had no choice. It was Lily's whole thing. Granny couldn't run off with Ridicully or even just off to Herseba or whatever because of Lily. Moreover the story shaped her so she wouldn't want to. If Granny really wanted to be nasty while being the good one she certainly could have made every bodies life a living hell much worse than what Lily managed. Carpe Jugulum even discussed it a bit and how Granny knows how terrible she would be.
Yup, kinda mixed on that.
On the other hand I have faith that if Terry had the time he would have absolutely made it work and it could have been great and a very different sort of send off for Granny than one where she quietly lies down and dies.
"Everywhere I look, I see something holy."
It struck a chord, despite most people here being atheists.
Half the patients have asked for a copy of Carpe Jugulum on the weekly book run.
If Sir Terry was alive, I reckon he'd be really happy about that.
Steam: adamjnet
Oats and Granny's trip over the mountain has some of the best dialogue I've ever read.
My favorite bit:
"Well, for starters, I'd have broken your bloody arm"
Just came across something similar in my re-read of The Light Fantastic:
Nah that isn't what I meant by what I said.
I'll probably plow through it in a few days. as much as i want to never touch them so Discworld remains endless, I don't think i can resist.
He didn't write those books to not be read.
And then I remember what has happened and that there will not be another Discworld book and that makes me sad again.
But in honour of Sir Terry, I just want to leave one of my own favourites....
Even the meek, and the blind, and the voiceless have gods.
Ocean, tears and heartbreak soup
Half alive in a whitecap foam
Half in love with a white half moon
Sorry to quote myself, but...
I've found so much new meaning in the Discworld series since arriving here (I'm rereading the whole collection for about the eighth time) and now I really miss him all over again... but I'm so thankful for him and his talent to ever have existed, and grateful to be able to draw strength from it, and to laugh as I go. Thank you Sir Terry.
*sniff*
Steam: adamjnet
I both can't wait to read it, and don't want to read it. If I don't read it, I won't have read every Discworld book that will ever be.
EDIT: Oh god, the inside flap is a bunch of authors I read talking about how awesome he was.
Always liked Hogfather for that sort of thing.
YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.
"Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—"
MY POINT EXACTLY.
Why I fear the ocean.
It's too much. I can't deal with it. He knew...and he wrote this knowing...it's too much.
This is actually my least favourite Pratchett quote because Death's argument makes no sense.
If I take the universe and grind it down to the finest powder and sieve it through the finest sieve, I won't find any atom of "justice", but neither will I find an atom of "horse" or "chair" or even "air" (depending on how finely you grind it, only hydrogen and carbon and other elements, or sub-atomic particles). I certainly won't find atoms of "intelligence" or "thought". But horses, chairs and air exist, I would argue that thoughts and intelligence exists, too, so why doesn't justice? They are all emergent properties.
My takeaway from the scene is that "justice" and "mercy" etc don't exist, and are merely fables humans make up and believe in to make life bearable. Neither Susan (or anyone else) ever argues that Death's reductionist argument is nonsense; Susan's argument is that the belief in these concepts is necessary for humans to function, but they don't actually exist.
I'd argue that neither "computer" atoms nor "justice" molecules exist in nature (certainly not if you grind the universe down to subatomic particles), yet both computers and justice are things humans create out of other stuff, not merely things we believe exist because it's a comforting thought.
(And don't take this to mean I don't like Terry Pratchett or Hogfather; I do, I just don't like this particular part of that book. (Possibly due to me misinterpreting it; but then I need someone to enlighten me.))
That was Death agreeing with Susan.
The rebuttal to this argument is that this does not neccisarilly imply they could not be invented.
"Of course there are entities that meet these criteria. It's true that they are queer sorts of entities and that knowing them isn't like anything else. But that doesn't mean that they don't exist.... For it is the most familiar fact of human life that the world contains entities that can tell us what to do and make us do it. They are people, and the other animals."
That's the point of the book. Justice and mercy are bizarre sorts of fictions, but none the less we make them "real" by believing in them. Like the entities in the book who literally become real through belief.
I took the passage to be arguing that "justice" etc don't exist at all, and we merely believe in them to make life bearable.
But the passage is arguing that "justice" etc don't naturally exist, but we create them by believing in them.
Especially when taken with the rest of the book, I can see why the second interpretation makes more sense.
Thanks for clearing that up! Much appreciated. Despite reading a lot, literary criticism has never been my strongest suit.
I think firstly you have to keep in mind that Death was more likely using Atom and Molecule in the Leucippus sense, that the universe is made of non divisible elements that carry in them the essence of what they combine to make. An interesting philosophy but one that leads a person to believe that his pants are, at least partly, made of fire.
Pratchett is also a big D&D nerd, which doesn't seem like much news but D&D at it's core has a rather unique ethical philosophy. In it Good, Evil, Justice and Chaos are not subjective, they are quantifiable elements of the universe that influence all sentient being in it's universe. In that universe you can grind down the universe and find justice and mercy, hell you can mine it and make swords out of it and everything, hell it even has it's own language and you can speak Chaotic Good. But all that is because ultimately there are arbiters of Good and Evil, the players who can come to an agreement on what is just and what isn't, though probably not before a lot of shouting and quoting of rules.
Incidentally, if you ever want to know what evil lurks in the hearts of men, have them play Chaotic Evil for a day.
Any way... it's either that or Pratchett just likes grinding things down:
Steam: adamjnet
Probably a Hex quote, if I had to guess?