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Sen. Ted Kennedy dies at 77

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Posts

  • MorgensternMorgenstern ICH BIN DER PESTVOGEL DU KAMPFAFFE!Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Say hello to Mary Jo, Ted.

    Morgenstern on
    “Every time we walk along a beach some ancient urge disturbs us so that we find ourselves shedding shoes and garments or scavenging among seaweed and whitened timbers like the homesick refugees of a long war.” - Loren Eiseley
  • David_TDavid_T A fashion yes-man is no good to me. Copenhagen, DenmarkRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Poor Robert Byrd.

    David_T on
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  • kildykildy Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    RIP Kennedy :( Mass seems a little darker today.

    kildy on
  • darthmixdarthmix Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I was unhooked from all media for most of last night, so I just found this out. I'd heard rumblings over the last week that he was dying, but it still comes a blow, somehow.

    He'll be missed.

    darthmix on
  • Darkchampion3dDarkchampion3d Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Fuck. He may have had his personal problems, but he was a hell of a senator and I always enjoyed watching him rile conservatives. Would have been great to have him for the healthcare debate.
    Robman wrote: »
    Fox are talking more about LOL HE WAS A FAT DRUNK WHO KILLED A PRETTY WHITE WOMAN etc

    Fuck fox news.

    Darkchampion3d on
    Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence --Thomas Jefferson
  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Fuck. He may have had his personal problems, but he was a hell of a senator and I always enjoyed watching him rile conservatives. Would have been great to have him for the healthcare debate.
    Robman wrote: »
    Fox are talking more about LOL HE WAS A FAT DRUNK WHO KILLED A PRETTY WHITE WOMAN etc

    Fuck fox news.
    Actually, that's probably the most truthful reporting they've done in a while.

    matt has a problem on
    nibXTE7.png
  • MorgensternMorgenstern ICH BIN DER PESTVOGEL DU KAMPFAFFE!Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    The one time Fox gets their facts right, they get jumped on. They just can't win.

    Morgenstern on
    “Every time we walk along a beach some ancient urge disturbs us so that we find ourselves shedding shoes and garments or scavenging among seaweed and whitened timbers like the homesick refugees of a long war.” - Loren Eiseley
  • Hockey JohnstonHockey Johnston Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Reputation matters. Who'd have thought?

    Hockey Johnston on
  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Its kinda sad that of the three brothers (JFK,RFK and Ted), Ted achived the most politicaly. Sad that a generation of great (but flawed) men where stopped before they could do more.

    And people wonder why I don't like people carrying guns to political rallys.

    Kipling217 on
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  • HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Dammit, Shepard!Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Fuck. He may have had his personal problems, but he was a hell of a senator and I always enjoyed watching him rile conservatives. Would have been great to have him for the healthcare debate.
    Robman wrote: »
    Fox are talking more about LOL HE WAS A FAT DRUNK WHO KILLED A PRETTY WHITE WOMAN etc

    Fuck fox news.
    Actually, that's probably the most truthful reporting they've done in a while.

    No account of Kennedy's life would be complete without the Chappaquiddick scandal, but emphasis is important. His flawed personal life is not relevant to his enormous professional accomplishment, and frankly the latter is much more important to the country.

    Hachface on
  • Hockey JohnstonHockey Johnston Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Chappaquiddick is also a pretty astounding story, unfortunately, illustrating how the well-connected get a free pass from the courts.

    Not like it alters the moral calculus of a dead woman, but I thought it was interesting that Kennedy endorsed Obama over Clinton and explicitly made a point about political dynasties being problematic. I hope we move further and further away from that kind of thing.

    Hockey Johnston on
  • PantsBPantsB Fake Thomas Jefferson Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Chappaquiddick was a case where a guy drove his car off a bridge, probably while drunk, and a woman died. Back then drunk driving was a minor misdemeanor. Was it negligent? Yes. Should he have reported it immediately instead of being irrational and trying to dive down and save her and then having a breakdown and reporting it the next morning? Yes. Does it justify the vitriol it generates? No, that's just an excuse.

    PantsB on
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  • Darkchampion3dDarkchampion3d Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Hachface wrote: »
    Fuck. He may have had his personal problems, but he was a hell of a senator and I always enjoyed watching him rile conservatives. Would have been great to have him for the healthcare debate.
    Robman wrote: »
    Fox are talking more about LOL HE WAS A FAT DRUNK WHO KILLED A PRETTY WHITE WOMAN etc

    Fuck fox news.
    Actually, that's probably the most truthful reporting they've done in a while.

    No account of Kennedy's life would be complete without the Chappaquiddick scandal, but emphasis is important. His flawed personal life is not relevant to his enormous professional accomplishment, and frankly the latter is much more important to the country.

    Exactly. Everyone knows that he fucked up and got a girl killed when he was younger. We also know that had he been one of us unconnected normal folk, his ass would have probably went to jail.

    But, on a national scale (and even global scale in some instances) compared to what he has done it is almost irrelevant.

    Darkchampion3d on
    Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence --Thomas Jefferson
  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    PantsB wrote: »
    Chappaquiddick was a case where a guy drove his car off a bridge, probably while drunk, and a woman died. Back then drunk driving was a minor misdemeanor. Was it negligent? Yes. Should he have reported it immediately instead of being irrational and trying to dive down and save her and then having a breakdown and reporting it the next morning? Yes. Does it justify the vitriol it generates? No, that's just an excuse.
    The apologists in this thread are just as sickening as the people who focus only on Chappaquiddick.

    matt has a problem on
    nibXTE7.png
  • HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Dammit, Shepard!Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    PantsB wrote: »
    Chappaquiddick was a case where a guy drove his car off a bridge, probably while drunk, and a woman died. Back then drunk driving was a minor misdemeanor. Was it negligent? Yes. Should he have reported it immediately instead of being irrational and trying to dive down and save her and then having a breakdown and reporting it the next morning? Yes. Does it justify the vitriol it generates? No, that's just an excuse.
    The apologists in this thread are just as sickening as the people who focus only on Chappaquiddick.

    What do you want us to say?

    Chappaquiddick was a terrible thing.
    Ted Kennedy was a great legislator.

    ...

    Which one of those things actually matters?

    Hachface on
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Hachface wrote: »
    PantsB wrote: »
    Chappaquiddick was a case where a guy drove his car off a bridge, probably while drunk, and a woman died. Back then drunk driving was a minor misdemeanor. Was it negligent? Yes. Should he have reported it immediately instead of being irrational and trying to dive down and save her and then having a breakdown and reporting it the next morning? Yes. Does it justify the vitriol it generates? No, that's just an excuse.
    The apologists in this thread are just as sickening as the people who focus only on Chappaquiddick.

    What do you want us to say?

    Chappaquiddick was a terrible thing.
    Ted Kennedy was a great legislator.

    ...

    Which one of those things actually matters?
    Thread needs more effigy.

    OptimusZed on
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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Both things matter.

    Saying that we ought to forget what happened, and Kennedy's irresponsibility in the face of it, is ridiculous. It doesn't change what he accomplished as a legislator, but it isn't as though it was some youthful indiscretion that should just be washed away.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
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    Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
  • SenjutsuSenjutsu thot enthusiast Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    PantsB wrote: »
    Chappaquiddick was a case where a guy drove his car off a bridge, probably while drunk, and a woman died. Back then drunk driving was a minor misdemeanor. Was it negligent? Yes. Should he have reported it immediately instead of being irrational and trying to dive down and save her and then having a breakdown and reporting it the next morning? Yes. Does it justify the vitriol it generates? No, that's just an excuse.
    The apologists in this thread are just as sickening as the people who focus only on Chappaquiddick.

    Adolf Hitler, obscure bohemian artist, died today in apparent suicide.

    Jesus Christ, sought in connection with the destruction of several local money lending businesses, was executed today by the state.

    Missing the point in obituaries sure is great journalism.

    Senjutsu on
  • HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Dammit, Shepard!Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Both things matter.

    Saying that we ought to forget what happened, and Kennedy's irresponsibility in the face of it, is ridiculous. It doesn't change what he accomplished as a legislator, but it isn't as though it was some youthful indiscretion that should just be washed away.

    He was 37 at the time, so it wasn't exactly a "youthful" indiscretion. But again, what are we supposed to say about it? What can we say about it other than "it was terrible"? What amount of agonizing over it are we supposed to do in order to keep from "washing it away"?

    Hachface on
  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    PantsB wrote: »
    Chappaquiddick was a case where a guy drove his car off a bridge, probably while drunk, and a woman died. Back then drunk driving was a minor misdemeanor. Was it negligent? Yes. Should he have reported it immediately instead of being irrational and trying to dive down and save her and then having a breakdown and reporting it the next morning? Yes. Does it justify the vitriol it generates? No, that's just an excuse.
    The apologists in this thread are just as sickening as the people who focus only on Chappaquiddick.

    Adolf Hitler, obscure bohemian artist, died today in apparent suicide.

    Jesus Christ, sought in connection with the destruction of several local money lending businesses, was executed today by the state.

    Missing the point in obituaries sure is great journalism.
    There's a difference between remembering the good things someone did and trying to mitigate the bad ones.

    matt has a problem on
    nibXTE7.png
  • SenjutsuSenjutsu thot enthusiast Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    PantsB wrote: »
    Chappaquiddick was a case where a guy drove his car off a bridge, probably while drunk, and a woman died. Back then drunk driving was a minor misdemeanor. Was it negligent? Yes. Should he have reported it immediately instead of being irrational and trying to dive down and save her and then having a breakdown and reporting it the next morning? Yes. Does it justify the vitriol it generates? No, that's just an excuse.
    The apologists in this thread are just as sickening as the people who focus only on Chappaquiddick.

    Adolf Hitler, obscure bohemian artist, died today in apparent suicide.

    Jesus Christ, sought in connection with the destruction of several local money lending businesses, was executed today by the state.

    Missing the point in obituaries sure is great journalism.
    There's a difference between remembering the good things someone did and trying to mitigate the bad ones.

    And I don't think people are complaining that Fox is taking a balanced look at his life

    their coverage is along the lines of DID HE GET AWAY WITH MURDER and oh yeah he was in politics I guess

    Senjutsu on
  • HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Dammit, Shepard!Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    There's a difference between remembering the good things someone did and trying to mitigate the bad ones.

    The obituary of a major public figure is supposed to evaluate that person's life. If we're not allowed to reevaluate the importance of a major scandal after 40 exemplary years have passed, then what's the point of even mentioning it?

    Hachface on
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Hachface wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Both things matter.

    Saying that we ought to forget what happened, and Kennedy's irresponsibility in the face of it, is ridiculous. It doesn't change what he accomplished as a legislator, but it isn't as though it was some youthful indiscretion that should just be washed away.

    He was 37 at the time, so it wasn't exactly a "youthful" indiscretion. But again, what are we supposed to say about it? What can we say about it other than "it was terrible"? What amount of agonizing over it are we supposed to do in order to keep from "washing it away"?

    250 words in every obituary or I reserve the right to be outraged.

    It's an important part of Kennedy's story, though. You can't explain the arc of his career without mentioning it. You can't talk about the Kennedy family without having a discussion about dynasty and priviledge, and it's the most obvious place to start that discussion.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
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    it was the smallest on the list but
    Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    PantsB wrote: »
    Chappaquiddick was a case where a guy drove his car off a bridge, probably while drunk, and a woman died. Back then drunk driving was a minor misdemeanor. Was it negligent? Yes. Should he have reported it immediately instead of being irrational and trying to dive down and save her and then having a breakdown and reporting it the next morning? Yes. Does it justify the vitriol it generates? No, that's just an excuse.
    The apologists in this thread are just as sickening as the people who focus only on Chappaquiddick.

    Adolf Hitler, obscure bohemian artist, died today in apparent suicide.

    Jesus Christ, sought in connection with the destruction of several local money lending businesses, was executed today by the state.

    Missing the point in obituaries sure is great journalism.
    There's a difference between remembering the good things someone did and trying to mitigate the bad ones.

    A life of service and helping those less fortunate or least capable of helping themselves does mitigate any horrible thing you've done, though. That's the very idea behind penance and redemption.

    moniker on
  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Hachface wrote: »
    There's a difference between remembering the good things someone did and trying to mitigate the bad ones.

    The obituary of a major public figure is supposed to evaluate that person's life. If we're not allowed to reevaluate the importance of a major scandal after 40 exemplary years have passed, then what's the point of even mentioning it?
    ...which is why I was responding to Pants' comment, and not Fox's coverage, or an obituary.

    matt has a problem on
    nibXTE7.png
  • kildykildy Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    moniker wrote: »
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    PantsB wrote: »
    Chappaquiddick was a case where a guy drove his car off a bridge, probably while drunk, and a woman died. Back then drunk driving was a minor misdemeanor. Was it negligent? Yes. Should he have reported it immediately instead of being irrational and trying to dive down and save her and then having a breakdown and reporting it the next morning? Yes. Does it justify the vitriol it generates? No, that's just an excuse.
    The apologists in this thread are just as sickening as the people who focus only on Chappaquiddick.

    Adolf Hitler, obscure bohemian artist, died today in apparent suicide.

    Jesus Christ, sought in connection with the destruction of several local money lending businesses, was executed today by the state.

    Missing the point in obituaries sure is great journalism.
    There's a difference between remembering the good things someone did and trying to mitigate the bad ones.

    A life of service and helping those less fortunate or least capable of helping themselves does mitigate any horrible thing you've done, though. That's the very idea behind penance and redemption.

    It's interesting in that respect, that his life following the incident is pretty much textbook seeking redemption by helping everyone he could.

    But no matter the actions, some people seem lacking in the forgiveness category.

    kildy on
  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    moniker wrote: »
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    PantsB wrote: »
    Chappaquiddick was a case where a guy drove his car off a bridge, probably while drunk, and a woman died. Back then drunk driving was a minor misdemeanor. Was it negligent? Yes. Should he have reported it immediately instead of being irrational and trying to dive down and save her and then having a breakdown and reporting it the next morning? Yes. Does it justify the vitriol it generates? No, that's just an excuse.
    The apologists in this thread are just as sickening as the people who focus only on Chappaquiddick.

    Adolf Hitler, obscure bohemian artist, died today in apparent suicide.

    Jesus Christ, sought in connection with the destruction of several local money lending businesses, was executed today by the state.

    Missing the point in obituaries sure is great journalism.
    There's a difference between remembering the good things someone did and trying to mitigate the bad ones.

    A life of service and helping those less fortunate or least capable of helping themselves does mitigate any horrible thing you've done, though. That's the very idea behind penance and redemption.
    Penance only means you've paid for your transgression, and redemption only means you've managed to become a better person than the one you were when you transgressed. Neither change what happened, or the terribleness of it. And like Dyscord said, without that one event, Carter would've had almost no ammo running against Kennedy in the presidential primary, which would've almost completely negated Reagan's October Surprise. No one can say whether Kennedy would've won of course, but without Chappaquiddick he would've actually had a chance.

    matt has a problem on
    nibXTE7.png
  • kildykildy Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    moniker wrote: »
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    PantsB wrote: »
    Chappaquiddick was a case where a guy drove his car off a bridge, probably while drunk, and a woman died. Back then drunk driving was a minor misdemeanor. Was it negligent? Yes. Should he have reported it immediately instead of being irrational and trying to dive down and save her and then having a breakdown and reporting it the next morning? Yes. Does it justify the vitriol it generates? No, that's just an excuse.
    The apologists in this thread are just as sickening as the people who focus only on Chappaquiddick.

    Adolf Hitler, obscure bohemian artist, died today in apparent suicide.

    Jesus Christ, sought in connection with the destruction of several local money lending businesses, was executed today by the state.

    Missing the point in obituaries sure is great journalism.
    There's a difference between remembering the good things someone did and trying to mitigate the bad ones.

    A life of service and helping those less fortunate or least capable of helping themselves does mitigate any horrible thing you've done, though. That's the very idea behind penance and redemption.
    Penance only means you've paid for your transgression, and redemption only means you've managed to become a better person than the one you were when you transgressed. Neither change what happened, or the terribleness of it. And like Dyscord said, without that one event, Carter would've had almost no ammo running against Kennedy in the presidential primary, which would've almost completely negated Reagan's October Surprise. No one can say whether Kennedy would've won of course, but without Chappaquiddick he would've actually had a chance.
    The apologists in this thread are just as sickening as the people who focus only on Chappaquiddick.

    The only things you've posted in this thread are a single post about the senate appointment changes being bullshit, and Chappaquiddick.

    Anywho, Redemption typically involves forgiveness for the transgressions. That's the redeemed part. While they still exist, they're no longer considered to be what defines you. In Kennedy's case, I think it's entirely safe to say that at the time of his death, he was defined by his long and rather stellar senate career moreso than a single event fourty years ago. While it can still be mentioned of course (it's historical and fact!), it's not the summation of his life.

    kildy on
  • gigEsmallsgigEsmalls __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2009
    Ted's sister just died too. So many dead Kennedys.

    gigEsmalls on
  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Boo get off the stage!

    matt has a problem on
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  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2009
    So very sad.

    _J_ on
  • AlejandroDaJAlejandroDaJ Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Heh, how long have you been waiting to make that joke?

    AlejandroDaJ on
  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2009
    Anyone know if the Fox and Friends covered this delicately and respectfully?

    _J_ on
  • MorgensternMorgenstern ICH BIN DER PESTVOGEL DU KAMPFAFFE!Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Surprised no one has mentioned his misadventures at Harvard and his time in the US Army.

    Morgenstern on
    “Every time we walk along a beach some ancient urge disturbs us so that we find ourselves shedding shoes and garments or scavenging among seaweed and whitened timbers like the homesick refugees of a long war.” - Loren Eiseley
  • HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Dammit, Shepard!Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Surprised no one has mentioned his misadventures at Harvard and his time in the US Army.

    Well if we can forgive killing a woman while driving drunk than it isn't much of a problem to forgive cheating at Harvard.

    There is no doubt that Ted Kennedy enjoyed incredible privileges. His virtue was in how he used his privilege to the immsense benefit of those without it.

    Hachface on
  • ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Kennedy was a terrorist sympathiser and fund-raiser. Not a great man. I don't know why the news in the UK is leading with this; he was never President, never even a party's presidential candidate.

    Æthelred on
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  • HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Dammit, Shepard!Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Æthelred wrote: »
    Kennedy was a terrorist sympathiser and fund-raiser. Not a great man. I don't know why the news in the UK is leading with this; he was never President, never even a party's presidential candidate.

    I'm assuming that you're talking about the IRA? I've actually never heard of a connection between Ted Kennedy and the IRA, but if there was one it really isn't surprising.

    Also Ted Kennedy is more important than many former presidents.

    Hachface on
  • gigEsmallsgigEsmalls __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2009
    Æthelred wrote: »
    Kennedy was a terrorist sympathiser and fund-raiser. Not a great man. I don't know why the news in the UK is leading with this; he was never President, never even a party's presidential candidate.

    That is a good question. I have no idea why any country outside the US would be interested in his death.

    gigEsmalls on
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    People in this country were plenty interested when Princess Diana died. Same thing really.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    NREqxl5.jpg
    it was the smallest on the list but
    Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
  • AlejandroDaJAlejandroDaJ Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Surprised no one has mentioned his misadventures at Harvard and his time in the US Army.

    Oh hey, surprised no one has mentioned a single legislative success of his.

    Literally. In this thread. All that happened so far was that PantsB made a single indirect reference to the Civil Rights Act. So before this becomes just a little too much of an underhanded-Who?-Me?-twist-the-knife? exercise, let me list a few of the bills he's particularly known for:
    • Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965
    • Brokering a peace accord in Northern Ireland
    • Title IX
    • Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act of 1986
    • COBRA insurance
    • Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990
    • SCHIP

    etc.

    EDIT: Well, I guess the debate has the benefit of not being "underhanded" any more.

    AlejandroDaJ on
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