Just because Valve didn't have a specific policy against a "cheat/exploit" is no reason to get upset when they crack down on it. It would be silly to expect them to list every possible exploit as cheating until it actually occurred. I still don't see how people can think it was unfair for Valve to take away their ill-gotten booty. Valve basically said, "We don't like what you're doing, so we're taking away the stuff you shouldn't have." I'd say that was pretty fair, especially considering it could have been worse.
Before posting something like this go read the many many posts in this thread and in the steam threads about people who deleted legitimate items when getting rid of duplicates from the idler. So on face value it seems fair but their implementation of the fix/punishment was piss poor.
Its also super awesome that the designer of the idler contacted valve when he first made it and asked if it was ok and he got no response from them.
CommunistCow on
No, I am not really communist. Yes, it is weird that I use this name.
And yet arena popping up on jon's or job's is the fastest way to clean the place out.
Arena: kills servers dead.
That's cause people are retarded babies and can't handle playing arena for 15 minutes.
Seriously, no amount of me complaining about cp_steel or pipeline being voted over granary/badlands/gpit is even close to the lameness factor of people emptying a server cause arena_badlands came on.
i will admit we need more arena_granary and badlands up in this bitch.
Just because Valve didn't have a specific policy against a "cheat/exploit" is no reason to get upset when they crack down on it. It would be silly to expect them to list every possible exploit as cheating until it actually occurred. I still don't see how people can think it was unfair for Valve to take away their ill-gotten booty. Valve basically said, "We don't like what you're doing, so we're taking away the stuff you shouldn't have." I'd say that was pretty fair, especially considering it could have been worse.
This right here is the issue. No one has given a convincing argument as to the difference between idling in game and out of game. The only difference would be one consumes more wattage and bandwidth, and as neither applies to TF2 in any competitive sense it can't be seen as an "unfair advantage" which is what the inherent definition of cheating implies. Valve probably never stated anything about the idler because they knew if they did people would just switch back to idling in game. The problem and failure here is on Valve for the inept system that they've created. If they don't want people idling for hats then create a different system that doesn't give hats to idlers.
Rakai on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]XBL: Rakayn | PS3: Rakayn | Steam ID
And yet arena popping up on jon's or job's is the fastest way to clean the place out.
Arena: kills servers dead.
That's cause people are retarded babies and can't handle playing arena for 15 minutes.
Seriously, no amount of me complaining about cp_steel or pipeline being voted over granary/badlands/gpit is even close to the lameness factor of people leaving a server over the map choice.
I think it's funny that the first two items I got (from idling "legitimately") happened to be duplicates. And after the item rapture I only had three items. Ho ho ho.
And yet arena popping up on jon's or job's is the fastest way to clean the place out.
Arena: kills servers dead.
That's cause people are retarded babies and can't handle playing arena for 15 minutes.
Yeah, they're clearly inferior for not having fun at something they don't enjoy. In a game they play to have fun. Seriously, what the hell is wrong with these people.
Just because Valve didn't have a specific policy against a "cheat/exploit" is no reason to get upset when they crack down on it. It would be silly to expect them to list every possible exploit as cheating until it actually occurred. I still don't see how people can think it was unfair for Valve to take away their ill-gotten booty. Valve basically said, "We don't like what you're doing, so we're taking away the stuff you shouldn't have." I'd say that was pretty fair, especially considering it could have been worse.
This right here is the issue. No one has given a convincing argument as to the difference between idling in game and out of game. The only difference would be one consumes more wattage and bandwidth, and as neither applies to TF2 in any competitive sense it can't be seen as an "unfair advantage" which is what the inherent definition of cheating implies. Valve probably never stated anything about the idler because they knew if they did people would just switch back to idling in game. The problem and failure here is on Valve for the inept system that they've created. If they don't want people idling for hats then create a different system that doesn't give hats to idlers.
The problem here is people using external programs to affect things that are supposed to be done in-game. That is cheating, period. The fact that it's relatively minor cheating doesn't mean it's not cheating. If you don't like the way something is unlocked, suck it up and deal. Either get the items like the rest of us or don't unlock it at all. Nobody owes you a hat, or any other damn thing, because you're too impatient to wait to get one.
And yet arena popping up on jon's or job's is the fastest way to clean the place out.
Arena: kills servers dead.
That's cause people are retarded babies and can't handle playing arena for 15 minutes.
Yeah, they're clearly inferior for not having fun at something they don't enjoy. In a game they play to have fun. Seriously, what the hell is wrong with these people.
Hey, as long as they then don't dedicate their time not playing to complaining about it and then complaining that the server is empty...
Yeah, they're clearly inferior for not having fun at something they don't enjoy. In a game they play to have fun. Seriously, what the hell is wrong with these people.
Keep in mind that the Sniper and Spy milestones take 5 fewer achievements than previous class milestones, which means a full half fewer for the first ones.
I think a much better metric would be whatever achievement for each class has the highest percentage obtained because of that sort of difference.
if we had arena_ravine and arena_granary cycled it wouldn't be so bad I don't think.
but whatever, there are also those fun-goers where arena doesn't fall into the fun factor category, but hey let's play dustbowl/dbheights/steel all fucking day.
Just because Valve didn't have a specific policy against a "cheat/exploit" is no reason to get upset when they crack down on it. It would be silly to expect them to list every possible exploit as cheating until it actually occurred. I still don't see how people can think it was unfair for Valve to take away their ill-gotten booty. Valve basically said, "We don't like what you're doing, so we're taking away the stuff you shouldn't have." I'd say that was pretty fair, especially considering it could have been worse.
This right here is the issue. No one has given a convincing argument as to the difference between idling in game and out of game. The only difference would be one consumes more wattage and bandwidth, and as neither applies to TF2 in any competitive sense it can't be seen as an "unfair advantage" which is what the inherent definition of cheating implies. Valve probably never stated anything about the idler because they knew if they did people would just switch back to idling in game. The problem and failure here is on Valve for the inept system that they've created. If they don't want people idling for hats then create a different system that doesn't give hats to idlers.
Brilliant piece of logic there. Blame the system, rather than the offenders. While I agree that the whole idea of random drops is dumb, the end doesn't justify the means.
Keep in mind that the Sniper and Spy milestones take 5 fewer achievements than previous class milestones, which means a full half fewer for the first ones.
I think a much better metric would be whatever achievement for each class has the highest percentage obtained because of that sort of difference.
Whichever metric we use, we need an accurate number. After I posted that I checked the steamcommunity.com stats and they differ from the ones Slicer gave, so I edited my post:
That's not how I read valve's blog post. They called it the "TF2 community", so I took it to mean that the 4.5% is a portion of the people who actually play the game.
But I guess in the absence of more detailed numbers it could go either way.
As other people have said, it's absolutely weasel words trying to make it seem like their system is only being bucked by a small fraction of the playerbase.
But if you want more detailed numbers, then by Valve's own count, today's peak of TF2 players is about 27,000, and from the idler we know there were about 10,000 at any given minute. 4.5% is a misleading figure.
As other people have said, it's absolutely weasel words trying to make it seem like their system is only being bucked by a small fraction of the playerbase.
But if you want more detailed numbers, then by Valve's own count, today's peak of TF2 players is about 27,000, and from the idler we know there were about 10,000 at any given minute. 4.5% is a misleading figure.
LAWL holy fucking shit.
That's a lot of buttheads idling for no reason.
Why don't they just make it so you earn the hats instead of randomly receiving them like a jackass?
Don't start this "earn" arguement either that we had with the achievements/milestones.
Just get them from playing your favorite classes and doing sweet stuff, maybe even extra achievements for said hat etc etc.
Just because Valve didn't have a specific policy against a "cheat/exploit" is no reason to get upset when they crack down on it. It would be silly to expect them to list every possible exploit as cheating until it actually occurred. I still don't see how people can think it was unfair for Valve to take away their ill-gotten booty. Valve basically said, "We don't like what you're doing, so we're taking away the stuff you shouldn't have." I'd say that was pretty fair, especially considering it could have been worse.
This right here is the issue. No one has given a convincing argument as to the difference between idling in game and out of game. The only difference would be one consumes more wattage and bandwidth, and as neither applies to TF2 in any competitive sense it can't be seen as an "unfair advantage" which is what the inherent definition of cheating implies. Valve probably never stated anything about the idler because they knew if they did people would just switch back to idling in game. The problem and failure here is on Valve for the inept system that they've created. If they don't want people idling for hats then create a different system that doesn't give hats to idlers.
The problem here is people using external programs to affect things that are supposed to be done in-game. That is cheating, period. The fact that it's relatively minor cheating doesn't mean it's not cheating. If you don't like the way something is unlocked, suck it up and deal. Either get the items like the rest of us or don't unlock it at all. Nobody owes you a hat, or any other damn thing, because you're too impatient to wait to get one.
Cheating implies breaking a rule. Valve themselves stated they had no such policy for the idler. No policy = no rule to be broken = impossible to claim "cheating". And you keep using "you". I don't give a shit about hats. I'm pointing out why people don't view the idler as cheating. Step down from the pedestal you keep putting yourself on.
Rakai on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]XBL: Rakayn | PS3: Rakayn | Steam ID
Cheating implies breaking a rule. Valve themselves stated they had no such policy for the idler. No policy = no rule to be broken = impossible to claim "cheating". And you keep using "you". I don't give a shit about hats. I'm pointing out why people don't view the idler as cheating. Step down from the pedestal you keep putting yourself on.
emulate or redirect the communication protocols used by Valve in any network feature of the Steam Software, through protocol emulation, tunneling, modifying or adding components to the Steam Software, use of a utility program or any other techniques now known or hereafter developed, for any purpose including, but not limited to network play over the Internet, network play utilizing commercial or non-commercial gaming networks or as part of content aggregation networks, without the prior written consent of Valve
As other people have said, it's absolutely weasel words trying to make it seem like their system is only being bucked by a small fraction of the playerbase.
But if you want more detailed numbers, then by Valve's own count, today's peak of TF2 players is about 27,000, and from the idler we know there were about 10,000 at any given minute. 4.5% is a misleading figure.
LAWL holy fucking shit.
That's a lot of buttheads idling for no reason.
Why don't they just make it so you earn the hats instead of randomly receiving them like a jackass?
Don't start this "earn" arguement either that we had with the achievements/milestones.
Just get them from playing your favorite classes and doing sweet stuff, maybe even extra achievements for said hat etc etc.
heh
the best part is I wouldn't make the argument against "earning" hats because they don't affect gameplay; all my old arguments hinged on that presupposition
They should just remove hats from the game so I don't have to listen to complaining and self-righteous douchebags. Get back to working on something that matters, like a goddamn engineer update.
Rakai on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]XBL: Rakayn | PS3: Rakayn | Steam ID
They should just remove hats from the game so I don't have to listen to complaining and self-righteous douchebags. Get back to working on something that matters, like a goddamn engineer update.
You also have to keep in mind that people using the idler are generally going to be using it more than TF2 itself, since it works on its own. Whereas, with TF2, people are going to be constantly launching and closing it.
So, to be clear on what I mean, say 10,000 people use the idler and 25,000 run TF2 one day, and 8,000 and 21,000 people the next. It's reasonable to assume that a large number, say 75%, of those idlers are running it both days, whereas TF2 might be something more like 30%. So it would be something like 11,000 total idlers and 38,000 total TF2ers.
4.5% is still almost certainly an extremely conservative estimate, but not as much as you're making it out to be.
Okay, so I know i joined this thread late, but can we still talk about just moments of pure badassery?
Either way, I'm sure mine will sound stupid, since I've probably only put 10-20 hours into this game at most, and most of that in the last month or so.
Anyway, nothing beats the pure awesomeness of taking on a beefed up turret as a heavy, medic(s) healing from relative safety around the corner, as the bullets from the turret force you backwards, before exploding.
I'm not sure, but I think that last paragraph might be NSFW.
As other people have said, it's absolutely weasel words trying to make it seem like their system is only being bucked by a small fraction of the playerbase.
But if you want more detailed numbers, then by Valve's own count, today's peak of TF2 players is about 27,000, and from the idler we know there were about 10,000 at any given minute. 4.5% is a misleading figure.
4.5% is not misleading. People who idle do so for extended periods of time. Like while they sleep, at work, whenever they aren't playing tf2. Most of those 10k are going to be the same 10k every day. They aren't going to be idling for an hour today, an hour two days from now. Those people will most likely be playing the game. With actual peak data you have people who play on and off. If one day you have 20k peak and the next 20k while there are some active for both days there are also many who played one day and not the other. Do you really believe that the same 20k people are playing the same day? What about over a week? Everyone has days that they play on and other days that they don't so while the peak may be 20k it doesn't mean there are only 20k people who own / play the game. People who idle do so with the intent to maximize their chances of obtaining a hat and therefore run SteamStats like ProgressQuest.
Its because of this I think the 4.5% is true and anyone who truly believes Valve just punished 33% of their player base hasn't taken the time to clearly think it through.
Cheating implies breaking a rule. Valve themselves stated they had no such policy for the idler. No policy = no rule to be broken = impossible to claim "cheating". And you keep using "you". I don't give a shit about hats. I'm pointing out why people don't view the idler as cheating. Step down from the pedestal you keep putting yourself on.
This right here is the issue. No one has given a convincing argument as to the difference between idling in game and out of game. The only difference would be one consumes more wattage and bandwidth, and as neither applies to TF2 in any competitive sense it can't be seen as an "unfair advantage" which is what the inherent definition of cheating implies.
The difference is that one uses a third party program, and the other does not.
Whether or not you consider that a convincing reason is up to you, and, frankly, doesn't fucking matter.
As other people have said, it's absolutely weasel words trying to make it seem like their system is only being bucked by a small fraction of the playerbase.
But if you want more detailed numbers, then by Valve's own count, today's peak of TF2 players is about 27,000, and from the idler we know there were about 10,000 at any given minute. 4.5% is a misleading figure.
4.5% is not misleading. People who idle do so for extended periods of time. Like while they sleep, at work, whenever they aren't playing tf2. Most of those 10k are going to be the same 10k every day. They aren't going to be idling for an hour today, an hour two days from now. Those people will most likely be playing the game. With actual peak data you have people who play on and off. If one day you have 20k peak and the next 20k while there are some active for both days there are also many who played one day and not the other. Do you really believe that the same 20k people are playing the same day? What about over a week? Everyone has days that they play on and other days that they don't so while the peak may be 20k it doesn't mean there are only 20k people who own / play the game. People who idle do so with the intent to maximize their chances of obtaining a hat and therefore run SteamStats like ProgressQuest.
Its because of this I think the 4.5% is true and anyone who truly believes Valve just punished 33% of their player base hasn't taken the time to clearly think it through.
Do you really think that there are another 200,000 active TF2 players? Really?
Because the ultimate point is that the idlers did not comprise an insignificant chunk of the active base.
Posts
Scouts suck?
or
How I learned to stop worrying and play the game?
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Before posting something like this go read the many many posts in this thread and in the steam threads about people who deleted legitimate items when getting rid of duplicates from the idler. So on face value it seems fair but their implementation of the fix/punishment was piss poor.
Its also super awesome that the designer of the idler contacted valve when he first made it and asked if it was ok and he got no response from them.
Seriously, no amount of me complaining about cp_steel or pipeline being voted over granary/badlands/gpit is even close to the lameness factor of people emptying a server cause arena_badlands came on.
This right here is the issue. No one has given a convincing argument as to the difference between idling in game and out of game. The only difference would be one consumes more wattage and bandwidth, and as neither applies to TF2 in any competitive sense it can't be seen as an "unfair advantage" which is what the inherent definition of cheating implies. Valve probably never stated anything about the idler because they knew if they did people would just switch back to idling in game. The problem and failure here is on Valve for the inept system that they've created. If they don't want people idling for hats then create a different system that doesn't give hats to idlers.
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Me too! High five!
They're there, you're just looking in the wrong place.
http://steamcommunity.com/stats/TF2/achievements/?group=sniper
http://steamcommunity.com/stats/TF2/achievements/?group=spy
17.8% for first Sniper
15.5% for first Spy
Keep in mind the Sniper and Spy milestones take 5 fewer achievements than previous class milestones, which means a full half fewer for the first ones.
edit: The numbers you gave(probably from http://steampowered.com/status/tf2/achievements.php) are off a bit compared to the statistics on the steamcommunity.com pages.
Medic: 20.3%
Pyro: 25.1%
Heavy: 20.0%
Scout: 13.2%
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The problem here is people using external programs to affect things that are supposed to be done in-game. That is cheating, period. The fact that it's relatively minor cheating doesn't mean it's not cheating. If you don't like the way something is unlocked, suck it up and deal. Either get the items like the rest of us or don't unlock it at all. Nobody owes you a hat, or any other damn thing, because you're too impatient to wait to get one.
Hey, as long as they then don't dedicate their time not playing to complaining about it and then complaining that the server is empty...
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I think a much better metric would be whatever achievement for each class has the highest percentage obtained because of that sort of difference.
Oh you...
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but whatever, there are also those fun-goers where arena doesn't fall into the fun factor category, but hey let's play dustbowl/dbheights/steel all fucking day.
Brilliant piece of logic there. Blame the system, rather than the offenders. While I agree that the whole idea of random drops is dumb, the end doesn't justify the means.
maybe a playable* version by this weekend
hopefully
*BARELY
Whichever metric we use, we need an accurate number. After I posted that I checked the steamcommunity.com stats and they differ from the ones Slicer gave, so I edited my post:
But if you want more detailed numbers, then by Valve's own count, today's peak of TF2 players is about 27,000, and from the idler we know there were about 10,000 at any given minute. 4.5% is a misleading figure.
That's a lot of buttheads idling for no reason.
Why don't they just make it so you earn the hats instead of randomly receiving them like a jackass?
Don't start this "earn" arguement either that we had with the achievements/milestones.
Just get them from playing your favorite classes and doing sweet stuff, maybe even extra achievements for said hat etc etc.
Cheating implies breaking a rule. Valve themselves stated they had no such policy for the idler. No policy = no rule to be broken = impossible to claim "cheating". And you keep using "you". I don't give a shit about hats. I'm pointing out why people don't view the idler as cheating. Step down from the pedestal you keep putting yourself on.
Yes.
Then maybe the Steam Weekend deal can be 50% off the price of TF2 hats.
the best part is I wouldn't make the argument against "earning" hats because they don't affect gameplay; all my old arguments hinged on that presupposition
hi5 brose, we're finally on the same side
Give me quick wrench or give me death!
Preferably, no death.
So, to be clear on what I mean, say 10,000 people use the idler and 25,000 run TF2 one day, and 8,000 and 21,000 people the next. It's reasonable to assume that a large number, say 75%, of those idlers are running it both days, whereas TF2 might be something more like 30%. So it would be something like 11,000 total idlers and 38,000 total TF2ers.
4.5% is still almost certainly an extremely conservative estimate, but not as much as you're making it out to be.
Note: all numbers pulled from my ass.
Either way, I'm sure mine will sound stupid, since I've probably only put 10-20 hours into this game at most, and most of that in the last month or so.
Anyway, nothing beats the pure awesomeness of taking on a beefed up turret as a heavy, medic(s) healing from relative safety around the corner, as the bullets from the turret force you backwards, before exploding.
I'm not sure, but I think that last paragraph might be NSFW.
4.5% is not misleading. People who idle do so for extended periods of time. Like while they sleep, at work, whenever they aren't playing tf2. Most of those 10k are going to be the same 10k every day. They aren't going to be idling for an hour today, an hour two days from now. Those people will most likely be playing the game. With actual peak data you have people who play on and off. If one day you have 20k peak and the next 20k while there are some active for both days there are also many who played one day and not the other. Do you really believe that the same 20k people are playing the same day? What about over a week? Everyone has days that they play on and other days that they don't so while the peak may be 20k it doesn't mean there are only 20k people who own / play the game. People who idle do so with the intent to maximize their chances of obtaining a hat and therefore run SteamStats like ProgressQuest.
Its because of this I think the 4.5% is true and anyone who truly believes Valve just punished 33% of their player base hasn't taken the time to clearly think it through.
Tofu wrote: Here be Littleboots, destroyer of threads and master of drunkposting.
Gravelpit is a good map because I like sticky jumping to the roof of B on defense, and almost killing everyone on the point singlehandedly.
Also, checking my backpack, it looks like they may have given me my items back. By dying in game doesn't seem to give them to me.
The difference is that one uses a third party program, and the other does not.
Whether or not you consider that a convincing reason is up to you, and, frankly, doesn't fucking matter.
Because the ultimate point is that the idlers did not comprise an insignificant chunk of the active base.
I once stabbed a guy in the back, and the other day I shot a few guys. I also once shot Icy while only a single pixel was visible of him.