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Canadian Politics: Proroguery Electric Boogaloo (with epic Harper evil picture in OP)

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Posts

  • AegisAegis Not Quite TorontoRegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    To be fair to public policy makers (since I'm trying to enter the field), the response of:
    I'm ok with safety measures in airports that save my life, as long as they actually do that.

    Would pretty much commence hours of hair-pulling. Public Policy isn't some kind of objective science involving a number of options that it just so happens always ends up choosing the most obtrusive, malfunctioning one to irritate people the most. It's a subjective determination of the best choice available given time constraints, uncertain information, unproven technologies, and unknown scope of threats.

    And it's necessary that some action be taken from a political perspective, even if it is just fluff, because a politician wouldn't be acting rationally if they didn't take into account the fact that doing nothing and having something happen is probably a sure fire way of getting one's ass fired and never elected again.

    Not that I like this particular method, since I think the issues involved still need to be worked out, but in general the layer of security is there for a reason, albeit not necessarily a functional one (rather, a political one).

    Aegis on
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  • AzioAzio Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Would pretty much commence hours of hair-pulling. Public Policy isn't some kind of objective science involving a number of options that it just so happens always ends up choosing the most obtrusive, malfunctioning one to irritate people the most. It's a subjective determination of the best choice available given time constraints, uncertain information, unproven technologies, and unknown scope of threats.
    This seems to have more to do with funnelling as much taxpayer cash as possible into the conservatives' private-sector allies than any of the things you have mentioned. Maintaining the appearance of being concerned about people's safety is simply a convenient side effect.

    Personally I am not all that bothered about airport staff looking at my blurry monochrome dick. What does concern me is that this money would be better spent on more staff and better training. Instead what will probably happen is staff will be cut to pay for these expensive machines

    Azio on
  • hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Aegis wrote: »
    And it's necessary that some action be taken from a political perspective, even if it is just fluff, because a politician wouldn't be acting rationally if they didn't take into account the fact that doing nothing and having something happen is probably a sure fire way of getting one's ass fired and never elected again.

    I imagine though that there's likely some causation between treating people as though they're stupid and their subsequently behaving like they're stupid. Beyond the fact that appealing to the stupid will necessarily put off the smart, turning them into angry cynical husks of human beings filled only with rage and misanthropy towards their fellow human, but I can tell you that anybody who treats me like I'm stupid will eventually be dealing with a passive-aggressive imbecile who can't hear properly.


    I mean, I get that people are stupid. But being smart, and then pandering to the stupid only makes you stupid too. And now the stupid are running the country, we're throwing millions of dollars away into stupid programs, creating a massive deficit, and forcing service cuts to things that we need desperately... which will only anger the stupid (along with everybody else) in the long-run. That's why you shouldn't listen to stupid people! Once you pop, you can't stop!

    hippofant on
  • RobmanRobman Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    hippofant wrote: »
    Aegis wrote: »
    And it's necessary that some action be taken from a political perspective, even if it is just fluff, because a politician wouldn't be acting rationally if they didn't take into account the fact that doing nothing and having something happen is probably a sure fire way of getting one's ass fired and never elected again.

    I imagine though that there's likely some causation between treating people as though they're stupid and their subsequently behaving like they're stupid. Beyond the fact that appealing to the stupid will necessarily put off the smart, turning them into angry cynical husks of human beings filled only with rage and misanthropy towards their fellow human, but I can tell you that anybody who treats me like I'm stupid will eventually be dealing with a passive-aggressive imbecile who can't hear properly.


    I mean, I get that people are stupid. But being smart, and then pandering to the stupid only makes you stupid too. And now the stupid are running the country, we're throwing millions of dollars away into stupid programs, creating a massive deficit, and forcing service cuts to things that we need desperately... which will only anger the stupid (along with everybody else) in the long-run. That's why you shouldn't listen to stupid people! Once you pop, you can't stop!

    Nobody ever went broke from over-estimating the stupidity of the (American) public

    Robman on
  • AegisAegis Not Quite TorontoRegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    hippofant wrote: »
    Aegis wrote: »
    And it's necessary that some action be taken from a political perspective, even if it is just fluff, because a politician wouldn't be acting rationally if they didn't take into account the fact that doing nothing and having something happen is probably a sure fire way of getting one's ass fired and never elected again.

    I imagine though that there's likely some causation between treating people as though they're stupid and their subsequently behaving like they're stupid. Beyond the fact that appealing to the stupid will necessarily put off the smart, turning them into angry cynical husks of human beings filled only with rage and misanthropy towards their fellow human, but I can tell you that anybody who treats me like I'm stupid will eventually be dealing with a passive-aggressive imbecile who can't hear properly.


    I mean, I get that people are stupid. But being smart, and then pandering to the stupid only makes you stupid too. And now the stupid are running the country, we're throwing millions of dollars away into stupid programs, creating a massive deficit, and forcing service cuts to things that we need desperately... which will only anger the stupid (along with everybody else) in the long-run. That's why you shouldn't listen to stupid people! Once you pop, you can't stop!

    Err, who is treating people like they're stupid? I'm quite confused at how stupid anything comes into a policy choice between a number of ineffective strategies that are still required due to political considerations.

    Aegis on
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  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Phisti wrote: »
    Cutting taxes during an economic boom is the dumbest thing ever.

    A) Most people have the jobs and money to pay the tax
    B) The tax builds a cash reserve for the inevitable bust so there is a cushion to pay stimulus monies etc.
    C) When the bust comes you can cut taxes to stimulate growth

    Yeah, not so bright.
    psyck0 wrote: »
    Trus wrote: »
    Economists said AT THE TIME OF THE GST CUT that it was the worst idea a government has had in a decade or more. Every economist whose opinion I heard was against it. It was a horrendously stupid tax cut, saving your average middle-class person $300-400 a year, the poor almost nothing, and the rich thousands and thousands of dollars (the opposite of how tax cuts are supposed to work, although I am opposed to tax cuts altogether- we've been cutting taxes for decades, how are we supposed to maintain services when all we do is cut funding for them you fucking retards?!!).

    Neither of these address the point I made about GST being a regressive form of taxation as opposed to a progressive one. And that the GST should be cut as long as the shortfall is made up in other areas.

    eg: I just spent $30 on the GST to purchase my textbooks for this term. This $30 hurts me a hella lot more than an extra 5% does on a new Viper or whatever McMoneyBags pays for.

    Gnome-Interruptus on
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  • AegisAegis Not Quite TorontoRegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Given the fact the government is likely to cut services to makeup a GST shortfall as opposed to raising new taxes, I'd have to disagree with you that the GST should be cut. Progressive/regressive really has nothing to do with anything.

    Aegis on
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  • Kevin R BrownKevin R Brown __BANNED USERS
    edited January 2010
    Honestly, Stelmach is much better than Ralph Klein, though it would be pretty difficult to go down from a guy that decided to spend the last 5 years in office just coasting until he retired while the province went to shit from lack of planning.

    If by 'much better than Ralph Klein' you mean 'completely insane and terrifying', I agree.

    This man has happily plunged his fists into buckets of blood. "H1N1 vaccine? That's a commie mind control chemical! We don't want that stuff in our province!"

    We didn't have large outbreaks of the virus in Alberta's major centers, and thank goodness for that, but Stelmach was playing Russian Roulette with millions of lives. If there had been an outbreak in Calgary or Edmonton, there would've been no resource in place to deal with it! Ed would've had us pray to our respective deities before being laid low by the pandemic. Worse, what if the virus significantly mutated, given the raw amount of stock that our provincial leader handed over on a silver platter? He'd have been responsible for defeating the entire planet's best defense against a potentially existential threat!

    The only political body worse than his current government is the WAP, who think that Stelmach has 'lost his way' and become too fucking Liberal and sane, and are living in some bizarre parallel universe where the Iron Curtain never fell and where everyone who isn't lapping at Jesus's imaginary toes is either a foolish dupe or an agent working for Satan.

    Kevin R Brown on
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  • TrusTrus Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Honestly, Stelmach is much better than Ralph Klein, though it would be pretty difficult to go down from a guy that decided to spend the last 5 years in office just coasting until he retired while the province went to shit from lack of planning.

    If by 'much better than Ralph Klein' you mean 'completely insane and terrifying', I agree.

    This man has happily plunged his fists into buckets of blood. "H1N1 vaccine? That's a commie mind control chemical! We don't want that stuff in our province!"

    We didn't have large outbreaks of the virus in Alberta's major centers, and thank goodness for that, but Stelmach was playing Russian Roulette with millions of lives. If there had been an outbreak in Calgary or Edmonton, there would've been no resource in place to deal with it! Ed would've had us pray to our respective deities before being laid low by the pandemic. Worse, what if the virus significantly mutated, given the raw amount of stock that our provincial leader handed over on a silver platter? He'd have been responsible for defeating the entire planet's best defense against a potentially existential threat!

    The only political body worse than his current government is the WAP, who think that Stelmach has 'lost his way' and become too fucking Liberal and sane, and are living in some bizarre parallel universe where the Iron Curtain never fell and where everyone who isn't lapping at Jesus's imaginary toes is either a foolish dupe or an agent working for Satan.

    Stelmach's handling of the H1N1 vaccine was shameful; In the space of like 2 weeks he and his government went from "we are encouraging everyone to get a shot" to "we don't have enough medicine for children let alone any one else" It took months for the government to set up a damn flu shot center at my university and another month for H1N1 shots.

    Trus on
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  • SenjutsuSenjutsu thot enthusiast Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Stelmach is a complete and utter fucknut, but I actually would say he is better than Klein, insofar as Klein was also out of his goddamn mind but the fucking rednecks loved his drunken ass. At least Stelmach has the benefit of being wildly unpopular

    Senjutsu on
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  • AzioAzio Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    not to defend stelmach but I had swine flu and it wasn't that bad. I was nauseous one morning until I ate, I had sore muscles the next day, and I had a cough for a week. Fatality rates for h1n1 were below average for the flu. You don't need to resort to these hysterics to criticize the likes of Ed Stelmach

    Azio on
  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Aegis wrote: »
    Given the fact the government is likely to cut services to makeup a GST shortfall as opposed to raising new taxes, I'd have to disagree with you that the GST should be cut. Progressive/regressive really has nothing to do with anything.

    Holy shit your dense, so desperate to criticize Harper that you are just going to talk past my point.

    Regarding H1N1 in Alberta: 69 total deaths, and that includes every person that died from causes other than H1N1 but also tested positive for H1N1.

    Its hard to compare Albertas 69 to Ontarios 121, since I know Albertas number was updated on December 30, and I cannot find an up to date summary for Ontario since May.

    Gnome-Interruptus on
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  • psyck0psyck0 Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Aegis wrote: »
    Given the fact the government is likely to cut services to makeup a GST shortfall as opposed to raising new taxes, I'd have to disagree with you that the GST should be cut. Progressive/regressive really has nothing to do with anything.

    Holy shit your dense, so desperate to criticize Harper that you are just going to talk past my point.

    Regarding H1N1 in Alberta: 69 total deaths, and that includes every person that died from causes other than H1N1 but also tested positive for H1N1.

    Its hard to compare Albertas 69 to Ontarios 121, since I know Albertas number was updated on December 30, and I cannot find an up to date summary for Ontario since May.

    It's also hard to compare the numbers given the massive population difference. H1N1 was not worth the panic in the slightest, I said so from the beginning, but the anti-science, anti-medicine idiocy of Stelmach will lead to far worse things if he pulls it again with something serious. That's the kind of thinking that champions of ignorance espouse- distrust authorities because they know too much, etc. It's seriously harmful to any functioning society because it discourages learning.

    I don't care if GST is regressive. It was 7%. It wasn't bankrupting anyone. A 2% difference is nothing, ESPECIALLY to the poor, and a 7% difference would have been equally nothing. If it were really about saving the poor and lower-class money, they would have kept the tax and put 50% of it towards affordable housing and job training programs. It wasn't about the poor, and the middle-class can afford to pay it, I don't care how much you complain. You aren't starving. In short, it was a really, really, really stupid populist move that saved no one except the rich any significant amount of money and cost the government $12 billion in desperately-needed revenue.

    Next time you hear someone complain about how much our health care sucks, ask them if their taxes have gone up or down in the last decade. The answer is down. Next, ask them how they think health care is being paid for. If they don't get the connection, shoot them for the crime of idiocy or something.

    (yes, I am aware that health care is provincial)

    psyck0 on
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Transfer payments means it's funding is federal anyway.

    shryke on
  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    What's that business about the GST cut helping the poor? Essential food products were not taxed, and lower-income people got a GST refund at the end of the year. The poor were effectively not paying GST at all in the first place. The middle class pays a trivial amount - $1 here, $5 there - and gets way more back in services anyway. The GST cut was a tax cut for the rich.

    Richy on
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  • Edith_Bagot-DixEdith_Bagot-Dix Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Richy wrote: »
    What's that business about the GST cut helping the poor? Essential food products were not taxed, and lower-income people got a GST refund at the end of the year. The poor were effectively not paying GST at all in the first place. The middle class pays a trivial amount - $1 here, $5 there - and gets way more back in services anyway. The GST cut was a tax cut for the rich.

    There's an argument to be made based on the fact that, for lower income people, the GST they do pay represents a more significant tax burden (it's a higher overall percentage of their total income) than it does for the wealthy, and GST refund cheques are not particularly helpful when you need a few more dollars right now. I think that has to be considered in the context of services received, though, so if we're talking about reduced services in exchange for a small tax cut, I don't think said tax cut works out to the benefit of lower income people.

    Edith_Bagot-Dix on


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  • RobmanRobman Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    The Tories slipped 3% in the polls today. Interestingly, most of those votes went Green. Also, only 23% of people surveyed agreed that the Tory explanation for the proroguing was the actual reason, about 50% said it was due to the Afghan issue. The Liberals gained 1%, the NDP slipped a little and the Bloc remained constant.

    Of course, the MOE wasn't reported so this could all be statistical noise.

    Robman on
  • AegisAegis Not Quite TorontoRegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Notwithstanding Liberal plans to sit in Parliament at the end of January, does anyone else have the feeling that there may be a non-zero chance that the opposition parties will somehow manage to squander public feelings on the prorogation (now backed up with public opinion polling)?

    Aegis on
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  • RobmanRobman Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Aegis wrote: »
    Notwithstanding Liberal plans to sit in Parliament at the end of January, does anyone else have the feeling that there may be a non-zero chance that the opposition parties will somehow manage to squander public feelings on the prorogation (now backed up with public opinion polling)?

    The CPC attack ads will be starting up shortly to mitigate this trend, I would imagine.

    Robman on
  • AegisAegis Not Quite TorontoRegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Robman wrote: »
    Aegis wrote: »
    Notwithstanding Liberal plans to sit in Parliament at the end of January, does anyone else have the feeling that there may be a non-zero chance that the opposition parties will somehow manage to squander public feelings on the prorogation (now backed up with public opinion polling)?

    The CPC attack ads will be starting up shortly to mitigate this trend, I would imagine.

    I found find it endlessly amusing (and sad) if CPC attack ads started, during the prorogation, and paid for by federal dollars.

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  • RobmanRobman Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Aegis wrote: »
    Robman wrote: »
    Aegis wrote: »
    Notwithstanding Liberal plans to sit in Parliament at the end of January, does anyone else have the feeling that there may be a non-zero chance that the opposition parties will somehow manage to squander public feelings on the prorogation (now backed up with public opinion polling)?

    The CPC attack ads will be starting up shortly to mitigate this trend, I would imagine.

    I found find it endlessly amusing (and sad) if CPC attack ads started, during the prorogation, and paid for by federal dollars.

    I would be very surprised if they didn't.

    Robman on
  • TrusTrus Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Aren't you not allowed to use federal money for partisan purposes? What ever happened to that?

    Trus on
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  • CorvusCorvus . VancouverRegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Trus wrote: »
    Aren't you not allowed to use federal money for partisan purposes? What ever happened to that?

    Lack of an effective opposition. The libs have gone from a befuddled academic who couldn't connect with the populace to a remote academic with freaky eyebrows who can't connect with the populace.

    Corvus on
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  • Al_watAl_wat Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Oh man. I just saw one of those Canadian Vignettes commercials. Any of you remember the one with a mounty who catches a crazed american, who pulls pistols on the mounty and says "YOU CAN'T DO THIS IM AN AMERICAN!"

    I just realized its the same actor who plays General Hammond from Stargate. I find this hilarious.

    *I couldn't find the stargate thread. Meh, canadian politics it is.

    Al_wat on
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  • Edith_Bagot-DixEdith_Bagot-Dix Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Robman wrote: »
    Aegis wrote: »
    Robman wrote: »
    Aegis wrote: »
    Notwithstanding Liberal plans to sit in Parliament at the end of January, does anyone else have the feeling that there may be a non-zero chance that the opposition parties will somehow manage to squander public feelings on the prorogation (now backed up with public opinion polling)?

    The CPC attack ads will be starting up shortly to mitigate this trend, I would imagine.

    I found find it endlessly amusing (and sad) if CPC attack ads started, during the prorogation, and paid for by federal dollars.

    I would be very surprised if they didn't.

    If they're anything like the body scanners, the Tories ordered them months ago.

    Edith_Bagot-Dix on


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  • AzioAzio Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Aegis wrote: »
    Err, who is treating people like they're stupid?
    Canada doesn't care about the afghan issue.

    Canada is fine with the government taking an extended break

    BC never had a moratorium on offshore drilling

    Canada has never been a colonial nation.

    Etc etc etc.

    Azio on
  • AegisAegis Not Quite TorontoRegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Azio wrote: »
    Aegis wrote: »
    Err, who is treating people like they're stupid?
    Canada doesn't care about the afghan issue.

    Canada is fine with the government taking an extended break

    BC never had a moratorium on offshore drilling

    Canada has never been a colonial nation.

    Etc etc etc.

    Ehhhh...purely partisan plays (the first two anyway, no idea how the last 2 relate to anything) are purely partisan plays. They play off a particular need of the population, often a tangential one not articulately as absolutely as the wording used by politicians, to craft stories/narratives to steer debate, gain support, position themselves ahead of opposition, etc.

    Though my question was more referring to public policy decisions made which are both ineffective and necessary.

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  • TrusTrus Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Al_wat wrote: »
    Oh man. I just saw one of those Canadian Vignettes commercials. Any of you remember the one with a mounty who catches a crazed american, who pulls pistols on the mounty and says "YOU CAN'T DO THIS IM AN AMERICAN!"

    I just realized its the same actor who plays General Hammond from Stargate. I find this hilarious.

    *I couldn't find the stargate thread. Meh, canadian politics it is.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lab6gyWsMXo&feature=PlayList&p=D6B32DAEC623AE2B&index=14

    I always loved these things, shame they aren't on TV anymore. This one was always my favourite:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-tNQA2pOp4&feature=PlayList&p=D6B32DAEC623AE2B&index=7

    Trus on
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  • AzioAzio Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=15213212
    Mr Harper is a competent tactician with a ruthless streak. He bars most ministers from talking to the media; he has axed some independent watchdogs; he has binned campaign promises to make government more open and accountable. Now he is subjecting Parliament to prime-ministerial whim. He may be right that most Canadians care more about the luge than the legislature, but that is surely true only while their decent system of government is in good hands. They may soon conclude that it isn’t.

    Azio on
  • AegisAegis Not Quite TorontoRegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    That entire article is a pretty withering criticism of him from a well respected publication.

    Edit: Oh hey, there's a second article on the front page of the site too:
    He may have miscalculated. A gathering storm of media criticism has extended even to the Calgary Herald, the main newspaper in his political home city, which denounced him for “a cynical political play”.

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  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    I am not supporting prorogation but when they come back from it the other parties have the same choice they had last year. To form a coalition or vote against the first bill that come through.. Even if it's the "we love puppies" bill. If they don't, they prove to the public that they are nothing more than blow hards. Time to put money on the table.

    Disco11 on
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  • AzioAzio Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Every time there's an election the fucking tories find some way to make it everyone else's fault, even when they themselves call the election. I really have no idea what good voting no confidence will do the opposition.

    Having opposition MPs meet in Ottawa on the 25th in spite of the prorogue and making a lot of noise about it is probably the best course of action, for the time being. An election while the tories are still ahead in the polls is a bad idea.

    Azio on
  • RobmanRobman Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Azio wrote: »
    Every time there's an election the fucking tories find some way to make it everyone else's fault, even when they themselves call the election. I really have no idea what good voting no confidence will do the opposition.

    Having opposition MPs meet in Ottawa on the 25th in spite of the prorogue and making a lot of noise about it is probably the best course of action, for the time being. An election while the tories are still ahead in the polls is a bad idea.

    Tory support is slipping, and the base did not respond well to the move. Only 23% of people polled stated the government story was the reason they actually prorogued, which means that 17% of the voters (assuming 40% CPC support, which is about right) of the CPC didn't believe Harper's story. That's nearly half his base disgruntled at him.

    It's going to take a lot of gruntling to get them to the polls, and if (big if) the opposition parties aren't totally inept, they can keep meeting weekly in Parliament and keep the proroguing story current.

    Robman on
  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    So the moderate Conservatives are annoyed at Harper for the proroguing move, and far-right Conservatives are pissed at him because gays can still marry and their incest-pregnant daughters can still get abortions behind their backs. Albertans are upset because he's not Albertan enough, Atlantic Canada should be upset because he called them a bunch of loosers, and hopefully someone will translate his speeches in French so the Québécois will finally realise that he's blaming all of his problems on them behind their backs.

    Why aren't his poll numbers falling like a brick? I want that Republican wannabe out of power as soon as possible.

    Richy on
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  • AzioAzio Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Why aren't his poll numbers falling like a brick?
    ignatieff_oc_100106.jpg

    Azio on
  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    So I guess we have to hope that the number of people who can hold their nose and vote Ignatieff against their better sense is greater than the number of people who can hold their nose and vote Harper against their better sense.

    Any chance we can get Jean Chrétien back? I'm honestly starting to miss that guy.

    Richy on
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  • oldmankenoldmanken Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Richy wrote: »
    Any chance we can get Jean Chrétien back? I'm honestly starting to miss that guy.

    This.

    oldmanken on
  • blkmageblkmage Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
  • CrimsonmonkeyCrimsonmonkey Registered User regular
    edited January 2010
    Ralph Goodale should learn french.

    Crimsonmonkey on
  • AegisAegis Not Quite TorontoRegistered User regular
    edited January 2010
    There was a suggestion in the Toronto Star today that Ignatieff should probably try and get Paul Martin back in some kind of financial advisor status, given the fact people do consider him one of the best financial ministers. The argument being that doing such would lend credibility to Ignatieff's economic policies and compete with Harper's new 'focus' on the economy that he seems to think the prorogation was for.

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    Currently DMing: None :(
    Characters
    [5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
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