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Choosing a career
Fizban140
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I just got done taking a Fundamentals of Biology class and I loved it. Unfortunately I missed over half the classes and somehow managed to pass with a C. I am not sure if it was just because this was more of an introductory class or because the instructor was that good but I think I want to get a degree in some sort of science. Biology, chemistry, anything like that. It was all very interesting to me in the class.
I just need to know where to go from here, I want to do a little research before I dive into all of this. What kind of job can I be expected to get with a biochemistry degree, or something with genetics? I really have no idea if I would even be good at something like that or if the kind of work they do would actually interest me. Also after spending some time in the military I have decided that I never want to have a job that I am forced to work and I never want to work insane hours again. No 16 hour shifts for a week or two months without a single day off.
I guess having options is pretty important, I don't want to get trapped in a job.
Where can I find information like that? If anyone has any personal experience or stories too that would be great.
I just need to know where to go from here, I want to do a little research before I dive into all of this. What kind of job can I be expected to get with a biochemistry degree, or something with genetics? I really have no idea if I would even be good at something like that or if the kind of work they do would actually interest me. Also after spending some time in the military I have decided that I never want to have a job that I am forced to work and I never want to work insane hours again. No 16 hour shifts for a week or two months without a single day off.
I guess having options is pretty important, I don't want to get trapped in a job.
Where can I find information like that? If anyone has any personal experience or stories too that would be great.
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For the science type fields, a good place to start might be the following question.
1) do you want to do research or not? Research is basically what it sounds like, you do research. You take what people have learned so far in a field and you try to extend it a little further. This route requires a lot of schooling. If you want to do research, the types of jobs you will get will be at national labs, teacher/researcher at universities, working in R&D branches of hospitals or companies, ect... For the other route, you aren't trying to discover new things, you are just using what you've learned to make something work. This kind of job doesn't require as much schooling (this doesn't mean there isn't a lot, just not as much as research).
If you want to do research then pretty much any field is open to you. Simply look at some of the main course requirements for any degree and see if those classes interest you. If you don't want to do research then it might be better to look into a science engineering degree. Again a good way of deciding what interests you is to look at the classes needed and decide if they are interesting.
As for being forced to work, I would probably say it's too widespread to say. Really everything is dependent on where you end up, and I think no matter what field you end up in there will be jobs that are far more laid back then the military.
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Have you looked into doing undergrad research with your department? That should really help you get a feel for whether or not the sciences are for you.
Most people who do this end up doing labwork or teaching. Now labwork isn't for everyone (It isn't for me for instance), but it can be quite rewarding. A lot of people end up with consultancy type jobs too. In general, people who have a degree in exact sciences are appreciated on the job market for their general skillset, but you won't get very rich with it. Biochemistry is one of the best fields out there though, a lot of research and buzz going on.
Most labwork isn't exactly 9-5, and it tends to get crunchy around deadlines, but it's generally not insane either.
And Manda is right, you probably aren't going to get rich at it. I make an acceptable amount of money, but I've been in the industry for 10 years (and I'm making no where near someone who's, e.g. been in the IT industry for 10 years). I also don't have a PhD.
sounds like you'd end up doing research
that's where i was headed with neuro because i didn't want to dedicate my entire life to med.
research is pretty broad though and can be VERY rewarding.
A friend of mine got microbio as her undergrad
and then went on to do field research on infectious disease in ghana, where she did the kind of... clipboard research of taking notes and observing trends, but also did hands on stuff like taking blood samples and becoming friends with the awesome kids, reading to them and stuff which i thought was great.
it's not so much the undergrad that's going to get you anything either, it's more in what you do after the undergrad.
like right now, she's gone on to do her masters in sexual health so she can go live in one of those communities as a sexual health specialist, helping out on a community level in ghana.
she's a pretty rad chick, really.
I will not be able to attend any class that is not located on a military base for the next year, so my options are pretty limited for now.
Well, 50K should be doable; say 40K and you're in.
The main problem with research isn't so much the pay (after some experience you still end up making about 100K in my field (hydrology/Remote sensing)), it's the plain terrible benefits. Once you start making money, you better start putting a large chunk towards retirement or you'll end up working a loooooong time.
Also, the lack of job security, the relocating, and the need for you to continuously study make it a field only for highly motivated people. With that comes that you need to have passion for the subject, not the work, because even I (working on a PhD on geomathematics) do mostly stupid, boring work. For lab people, this is even worse as they need to collect samples, do routine treatments on them, do the same procedure on them for all samples, etc. etc.
Despite all this, the upsides are a generally laidback work atmosphere, a lot of freedom, being on the forefront of development, lots of growth potential, and often a lot of opportunities to do new and exciting stuff.
My suggestion is to just take some courses and mix and match when you have taken some courses.
If you have money and time and can continue to go to school after getting your PhD, it could be right up your alley (as it's an excellent qualifier for other academic programs). For job prospects, they're shit -- PhD in biology follow the research path of PhD > Post Doc > Faculty. It's simple math to explain to you that there aren't enough retirements or expansion in the field to handle the number of people getting PhDs (in most any research field), and "Industry" jobs rarely do primary research.
Plus if you get a faculty position, you can look forward to working 80+ hour weeks until you retire.
Well, there's a lot more than just faculty that you can do with a PhD. Sure, they don't exactly prepare you all that well for it, but you're a god damned PhD, you can figure out how to get a job elsewhere.
It isn't a good career path in the sense that if you want to go in to corporate stuff, you're better off getting a master's.
Seriously. Our newly PhD friends who aren't have any trouble are the ones from rich families, so if they're unemployed for 6+ months while living in a house by themselves, it's no big deal. And if they decide to become an entrepreneur, they already have money to get started.
Mostly it's because when you're in a research field, your PI (the dude who's lab you join to do your research) knows academic research. It worked for him/her, and all of their colleagues, and they take offense to the idea that you would refuse to do academic research yourself. As such, not only do they have no or very few connections to Industry, they also look down on it and many will not write recommendations if you're not going into academic research.
My wife has had a hell of a time explaining the reality of a science PhD to non-PhD friends and family. You say "I have a PhD" and everyone assumes you're a super genius who can take any job anywhere. They don't hear the story about the guy who started research that won the nobel prize, but his lab was shut down due to lack of funding and he handed his work off to another lab (which won the Nobel) and he's currently driving a van at an airport.
The current tenure/faculty system in science is, in many ways, a lottery -- if you don't get in, that's pretty much it for your academic career. And if you DO get in, but can't maintain funding or get tenure, then you've got a big black mark on your CV and are really stuck ("Hello, I am a researcher who can't get funding and this other college didn't give me tenure, but surely YOU would want to hire me instead of this post doc who hasn't already fucked up once.")
Masters in the hard sciences are a relatively recent invention, mostly due to the lack of funding at the PhD level. They do have an advantage over PhDs in the corporate world mostly due to the fact that everyone assumes PhDs want to be tenured faculty and have unrealistic pay expectations.
When I showed interest in research he was basically against it. Went as far as to threaten to cut the amount of tuition money I would receive from him.
I'm not talking about the Chemistry lab jobs that make you check in glassware and stuff, but an undergraduate position in some research lab on campus. You'll get a good feel for what goes on in the research world, and what you can realistically expect to do.
Also, if you get a specialty degree, or one with little applicability outside of the research world (astrophysics, for instance), then expect to start grad school right after your undergraduate.
I graduated with a degree in Environmental Sciences, which was heavy on chemistry, and it has definitely been useful in finding a job after college, because I'm not quite ready to start a graduate program until next year.
I guess it even depends on the field you're in. I have friends who have been wanting to go into consulting all along. My current super is known for his contacts in the industrial world and training his PhD's not only to be able to work as faculty, but also as managers/corporate (for example, we regularly get sent off to take management workshops and the like). But then again, I am not in the US, but in Europe. Thinmgs seem a little bit brighter here for budding PhD's like me. :P
I do get the same feeling your wife has, other people just don't really understand the job difficulties. I guess I am blessed with a small field with a huge growth potential (I do the statistics on the hydrological sattelite observations), but even for me I have to start thinking about a new position about a year in advance and you can't really look at the classifieds in the local newspaper.
Anyway, about the science thing: Take some courses, find what you like and don't ever get a PhD unless you are very sure you want one.
More directly, maybe do a research internship at the university first, then find something outside a university. Try an institute or a company as the research there is very different.
I want a job that I can have some off time with an relax, not be worried about constantly studying, working overtime and keeping up with the job. I want something that I can actually earn some money equal to the amount of work I put in, if people of the same experience are graduating with a degree that is easier or the same difficulty as mine they shouldn't be making more than 10k than me.
Also I don't think I am smart/motivated enough to get a PhD, that takes about 10 years of school doesn't it? I don't want to be 34 when I finally start working.
Are there are science related jobs that fit this?
Do you really need to bust your balls for 10 years getting a PhD to maybe do anything interesting eventually?
Would be cool to have like a physics club and then just meet up regularly and work on some experiments.
You might need to look past salary to find an entry-level job. To be honest, it's less about the type of work and more about the location and company that determine your salary. You cannot be bothered by the idea of people making 10k more by doing less than you. It happens. Everywhere. Often times by larger gaps in pay. If you think about it, you will go nuts. Use sources of starting salary as a guide and not a rule.
The "Quality" field is a typical starting location for an engineering or science graduate. It's kind of between Research, Processing, and Management but it's more ad hoc and improvised than the other areas. IMO it's a lot less math-oriented too. Unfortunately, work load may vary based on how much other people screw up. It does have a rather good career path though, and Six-Sigma training can pay off in spades (if you want to do sciencey management later on).
Let 'em eat fucking pineapples!
It should only be a 2-4 year course depending on whether or not you go for a degree or a diploma.
The work can very pretty wildly depending on what you specialise in and where you're working. An independent lab tends to be a bit more monotonous than a hospital lab where you'll probably see more variety in your work on a daily basis.
Pay is ok, should be in the 50k+ range starting out. Unfortunately, promotions mean less actual lab work, and more management type work.
You're not going to be doing self-directed science! or anything, but it can be interesting work.
I was always good with math, but I never enjoyed it until I started taking physics courses. Being able to see how all the fancy maths come together to model reality was an eye opener. Just be prepared to do a lot of studying if your math skills are rusty.
Hell I would say writing classes would be better suited
From my considerable experience in the field, I have to say that the answer is "no" when it comes biology positions.
This kinda surprises me, i'm just about to finish my degree in physics, pretty much every one of my modules was maths maths and more maths, particularly integration/differentiation and vectors. That didn't bother me too much as i'm pretty good at maths but if i wasn't i really would've struggled.
Also 50k+ for research positions?! Here in the UK you'd be lucky to get £25k (which i think is ~ $36).
Teaching on the other hand pays more, has awesome holiday time, is easier to do and quite easy to get into, especially in science/math related subjects.
I have my own worries, having heard how difficult it is to get an academic position, since that's what I'd most prefer. But I'm hoping that the picture isn't as bleak as it looks. After all, I'm pretty applied -- I could transition to industry -- and I'm also a good teacher, so plan C is just teaching school. And if I can't get any jobs relevant to my interests, well, I'll get whatever shitty job will support me. Going for a PhD shouldn't make me literally unemployable. And the stats are that everyone from my PhD program comes out with a job, usually postdocs at good schools.
(The scary thing is not five years from now, but ten, when I'll want tenure, and everyone will hate me because I am of the babymaking sex. Worst case scenario: I try to have kids, lose my job, try to play housewife, and hate it so much I stick my head in the oven. The alarming thing is, apart from the Sylvia Plath ending, this is actually pretty likely! I know a few young scientists for whom "stay-at-home mom" is a euphemism for "unemployed.")
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There's disagreement whether you'd call a postdoc a job. Well, I guess a career. A postdoc is a 5 year program with the intention to work towards academic faculty positions. The pay is slightly more than as a grad student but it's still sets at the federal level. And after 5 years, you gotta move -- either another postdoc or hope to get a faculty position if your work is sexy. There's lots of people who are working on their 3rd postdoc because that's the only thing open to them.
A job is still a job, but is it a career? My wife isn't exactly enthusiastic about doing two postdocs and then being in her 40s and still trying to figure out what her career is.
I figure if they pay me, it's a job. Lots of jobs are temporary. My friends with a 3-year entry-level position at a bank, or a temporary fellowship at a think tank, count themselves as employed. But yeah... it's daunting to think of winding up in your wife's position. Me scared.
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lab tech in pharm would fit that job. i worked essentially 9 to 5 and got paid 47K right out of college. it wasn't the most glamorous but i did my job and left, and that was it.
Man, the job you're describing is definitely NOT research.
With a Bachelor's, you might be able to pull off a job in QA or working in a lab that runs medical tests.
In those cases, you're either constantly swabbing surfaces and growing bacterial cultures to see how contaminated your equpment is (QA), or running the same tests on blood samples day in and day out. It's a real oversimplification of the work, but that's about where you'd be at with a BSc and working the hours you want.
I have no idea what the pay is like for those jobs -- it's not awful though -- and maybe you could work your way up in the company.
Actual research is a hard, underpaid life where your primary reward is prestige and the constant challenges you face and overcome.
I dropped out of my PhD program for this reason. While I was in grad school my lab got a new PostDoc who was on his second or third university after graduation. And even if he eventually got a faculty position he'd be going through what my advisor (as a second-year professor at the university) was going through: 3-10 years of trying to get grants, PhD advisees, postdocs, and eventually tenure before he could do more than vaguely oversee actual research. 8-10 years in undergrad/grad followed by 5+ postdoc and then 5-10 as the struggling new kid at a university before your research career really gets going is not something I was prepared for when I started grad school. And, at least in physics, a PhD basically takes you out of the non-academic job market.
Certainly
but as we enter an age where technology and knowledge advances more rapidly than ever before, it might not even be worthwhile anymore. The death of amateur science.
But I've heard stories about biologists working on shit in their garage. Some people complained that this was dangerous because they might make a deadly virus that kills people. Who knows.
Pretty much the only independent science you can do on your own is computer science these days.
depends on the field
with a B.S., I was making ~$35,000 / year, which is not unusual. while you can certainly work your way up to well over $50,000 / year, at least in the biological sciences, I wouldn't expect to start there with a B.S. I don't know as much about physics or chemistry, but I assume it's about the same in those fields. Computer science is really the only "science" I'm aware of that pays big bucks to those with just a B.S.
The two basic routes for science are academia and industry. Academia is going to be essentially all research, with a whole lot of teaching thrown in. The benefits of academia are that you get to study what you want, so long as you can get the funding for it. However, it doesn't pay quite as well, and a PhD is required to teach at essentially all universities.
Industry is probably where you want to go if you want to get paid. While a PhD is certainly beneficial, you can be very successful in industry with just a Master's. You will get paid significantly higher; however, you will have very little say about what you work on.
I'm not trying to dissuade you from science in any way, shape, or form. Hell, I love it enough that I'm in a PhD program for Micro and Molecular Biology right now. Just be aware that if you want to get "paid" in a hard sciences field, you essentially have to get some sort of graduate degree.
In New Zealand, Australia, UK (maybe EU, not sure), you will do 4 years as an undergraduate, followed by 3-4 years (most tend towards 4 years) for a PhD.
More than half of my friends from during my PhD are in academic jobs (mostly PostDocs). Postdoscs are generally 2-3 years in these parts of the world as well. At least in the UK there is also a further possible (but not necessary) intermediate step between PostDoc and faculty, which is fellowships, which give you funding to pursue your own research free of any ther commitments.
Personally I moved directly from PhD to an academic research position (but not a lecturing position). I started on ~25K (pounds), which is about the same as a postdoc (I should be getting a second pay rise this year).
One thing I would recommend if possible, is to get out of the US system. In the US academics appear to have more power to, for example, just fire you if they don't like you, or think you aren't working hard enough. They can also do the same to Postdocs. It isn't as easy to do these sort of things in other parts of the world.
Keep in mind that a PhD will teach a range of transferable skills. By the end you should have developed skills in research and communication, as well as skills in your particular discipline that can be applied over the whole field. For example, Gel Electrophoresis in genetics, or NMR in chemistry.
This sort of career is probably for you if you have either a passion for a particular field, or you have a passion for a career that is going to involve continuing to learn through its entire duration.
Umm... no. They pay for your schooling in MD/PhD programs because they expect you to make less and not be able to cover being several hundred thousand in debt as easily as your classmates.