Is Seals of the Pure worth picking up if I just want to tank heroics and run through them as quickly as possible? Or does it not really generate that much threat?
also, don't glyph Consecrate, it will muck with the spells coming up off cooldown. Chuck Glyph of Divine Plea in there instead.
and the point in Divinity is largely being wasted.
I'm missing gear for the neck/chest/wrists/waist/feet/1ring/libram.
I figured I could get the crafted titanium neck/ring, so those are taken care of. Anything else that can be crafted that I should grab?
I'll continue to run as ret until I get enough emblems for a libram. And I guess I'll pick up the rest through drops in heroics. Then just farm emblems until I've filled out my sets for all three specs.
I'm trying to figure out a Ret solo leveling build and I was wondering if Improved Blessing of Might is a smart choice?
I've decided to pick up my long-neglected 59 pally and solo through Outlands at least before deciding if I want to upgrade to WotLK. Or would Prot be a better choice to solo group quests as I imagine I'll have a hard time finding others to group?
Ret can solo most things fine. I prefer PoJ to Imp. Might while leveling for the speed boost.
PierceNeck on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited October 2009
although if i was you once you hit 60 and get Divine Storm (assuming you're 51 points into Ret above all else) I'd go back and get things like Imp Might.
also, don't glyph Consecrate, it will muck with the spells coming up off cooldown. Chuck Glyph of Divine Plea in there instead.
and the point in Divinity is largely being wasted.
Dhalphir, is there a reason you went with Sanctity of Battle talent in that build? You referred to to Crusade earlier, and that is the "normal" 3-point talent taken in the ret tree for tanks from what I've read. Is there a hidden benefit to Sanctity of Battle that I haven't figured out or read yet (other than the crit that is)?
WolveSight on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited October 2009
Whoops! i clicked the wrong spell when I was linking the build, it should be Crusade.
ah, thx. Was wondering if I had completely lost my mind, or if the hour had snuck up on me.
I just hit 80 on my paladin tank, and even though I tanked quite a bit in TBC, things have changed a good bit so it's interesting to learn the new tricks and such.
If you just hit 80 and are tanking heroics, you might want to get both points of spiritual attunement.
When bosses aren't hitting you for 22000 damage, only getting 5% of heals as mana back makes tanking the heroics that you'll actually be doing begin to suck.
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited October 2009
Nah. You don't take much damage in heroics past a very early level of gear, so the difference with SA is minimal...95% of your mana return comes from Divine Plea and Blessing of Sanctuary, not SA. And if you take 2/2 SA you need to only take 2/3 Crusade which is a threat loss.
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited October 2009
I have 1/2 and am likewise.
Next time you finish a heroic pull up recount and check out the mana restoration levels, and see how much mana SA gave you. Halve it, and see if you actually lose much.
I'll do that, but sadly my paladin is my lowest-priority character right now. If I end up tanking, it's on my warrior... ironically I hate tanking on my warrior and rolled my paladin specifically TO tank,
Alternatively, you could throw up Seal of Wisdom and get back up to near full then switch back to Vengeance. Shouldn't make that much of a difference in a heroic.
Well, for me, I'm typically tanking for my friends, who are wearing ToC gear, on my paladin in heroic epics. Switching to SoW causes some pretty significant issues
Eh, you really don't need to on most trash pulls, though. Saves some mana and opens up a GCD for you to use SS if you want, or if something bad happens you can react quicker. *shrug*
But, to each their own.
Cokebotle on
工事中
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Just picked up my t9 legs. I'm sitting at 13 triumph badges right now, I am wondering whether you fellas think I would be better off going for shoulders next, to pick up tier 9 4pc asap, or whether I should go for chest, since its a bigger overall upgrade to the current piece.
Shoulders....for the look.
I'm kind of sitting on the same spot....although I'm sitting at 52(?) badges and mostly just waiting to get to 100 so I can get both.
I am looking into stacking more Block value/rating because I think I'm starting to run into threat issues.
And by threat issues I mean dps is getting to 85% on me...and this is unacceptable!
Had my first goes at paladin tanking last night, 71 for Nexus and 72 for Utgarde Keep.
Lot of fun, though it's weird having so many buttons after the relative snoozefest of bear druid "swipe a lot, and maybe maul and mangle if you're feeling posh" tanking. Must have forgotten about Holy Shield like ten times all told, and doing the first three pulls of Nexus without Righteous Fury (and ALL of Nexus unglyphed) was embarrassing.
And oh god I've still got two more buttons to work in for both Ret and Prot by 80 and my bars are completely full even with seals and blessings and stuff on OPie and oh god
Just picked up my t9 legs. I'm sitting at 13 triumph badges right now, I am wondering whether you fellas think I would be better off going for shoulders next, to pick up tier 9 4pc asap, or whether I should go for chest, since its a bigger overall upgrade to the current piece.
I'd go for chest, just because with expertise on them the shoulders aren't that well itemized for a Tankadin.
Had my first goes at paladin tanking last night, 71 for Nexus and 72 for Utgarde Keep.
Lot of fun, though it's weird having so many buttons after the relative snoozefest of bear druid "swipe a lot, and maybe maul and mangle if you're feeling posh" tanking. Must have forgotten about Holy Shield like ten times all told, and doing the first three pulls of Nexus without Righteous Fury (and ALL of Nexus unglyphed) was embarrassing.
And oh god I've still got two more buttons to work in for both Ret and Prot by 80 and my bars are completely full even with seals and blessings and stuff on OPie and oh god
I find something like Healbot helps a ton because you can set it up to do all sorts of stuff - Righteous Defense, all your Hands, Sacred Shield, Flash of Light for your Art of War procs, etc. Saves quite a bit of space on your bars.
W2 on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited October 2009
Xperl is better for a tank, as its less aimed at healer
I can't imagine healbot being good for a ret or prot pally. It takes up WAY too much screen space, especially in 25's.
Seriously, you don't need to put every goddamn spell on your bars. PallyPower is fantastic, and everytime I find a pally without God kills a kitten. Just use something that allows you to see raid frames (hell, the default UI has it built in!) and you can just make mouseover macros for your Hands.
Personally, I use XPerl, Bartender, and PallyPower and that does everything I need for prot/ret (I have a few other extra things, but they're totally optional. Like Serious Help in Timing for Ret, which is kinda nice to have for cooldown management, sometimes)
Yeah, doesn't seem like they'd want it to stack. Ah well.
Sidenote: Found out that fully raid buffed in prot with a flask and I sit around 45k health, which is nice because we're gonna try to put together a ToC 25 man to run once a week, and I will probably be tanking until we get another one. >.<
According to the RL, the only concern he has with our group, is the tanks. Because they're mostly from 10 mans, and might not have the needed health, but all the DPS should do at least 4k, and the healers are all solid.
Both myself and my main tank both only sit around 39-41k life and we both tank ToC 25 just fine. Of course we are both defense stacking whores rather than stamina, but all the same. If your RL is worried about your tanks HP rather than your stats that matter more in my opinion, you should tell him to shove it. Mitigation > HP
Yeah, doesn't seem like they'd want it to stack. Ah well.
Sidenote: Found out that fully raid buffed in prot with a flask and I sit around 45k health, which is nice because we're gonna try to put together a ToC 25 man to run once a week, and I will probably be tanking until we get another one. >.<
According to the RL, the only concern he has with our group, is the tanks. Because they're mostly from 10 mans, and might not have the needed health, but all the DPS should do at least 4k, and the healers are all solid.
Both myself and my main tank both only sit around 39-41k life and we both tank ToC 25 just fine. Of course we are both defense stacking whores rather than stamina, but all the same. If your RL is worried about your tanks HP rather than your stats that matter more in my opinion, you should tell him to shove it. Mitigation > HP
Mitigation is not the same as avoidance. If you're going for effective health you'd be stacking stam/armor, not defense rating. Anyway, I have 38k unbuffed HP on my Warrior and I still have over 26% dodge. And stacking avoidance doesn't do anything for you when you take magic damage or unavoidable damage like Gormok's impales.
Like it or not, stacking Stam is just plain better right now than avoidance. This is coming from somebody who still gems def/stam and dodge/stam gems in yellow/red sockets too if the set bonuses appeal to me, so it's not like I just blindly stack only stam.
As for whoever was saying to use healbot as a tank, you can just use any raid frame in conjunction with clique to get the same effect. I prefer grid, but xperl or whatever else works fine, and you won't have healbot taking up space on your screen.
Yeah, doesn't seem like they'd want it to stack. Ah well.
Sidenote: Found out that fully raid buffed in prot with a flask and I sit around 45k health, which is nice because we're gonna try to put together a ToC 25 man to run once a week, and I will probably be tanking until we get another one. >.<
According to the RL, the only concern he has with our group, is the tanks. Because they're mostly from 10 mans, and might not have the needed health, but all the DPS should do at least 4k, and the healers are all solid.
Both myself and my main tank both only sit around 39-41k life and we both tank ToC 25 just fine. Of course we are both defense stacking whores rather than stamina, but all the same. If your RL is worried about your tanks HP rather than your stats that matter more in my opinion, you should tell him to shove it. Mitigation > HP
Mitigation is not the same as avoidance. If you're going for effective health you'd be stacking stam/armor, not defense rating. Anyway, I have 38k unbuffed HP on my Warrior and I still have over 26% dodge. And stacking avoidance doesn't do anything for you when you take magic damage or unavoidable damage like Gormok's impales.
Like it or not, stacking Stam is just plain better right now than avoidance. This is coming from somebody who still gems def/stam and dodge/stam gems in yellow/red sockets too if the set bonuses appeal to me, so it's not like I just blindly stack only stam.
I never said anything about avoidance. I said mitigation. I just use dodge/def gems in all slots except I think 2 right now, or 1 which are taken up by 30 stamina gems. But while tanking and seeing "Miss, miss, miss, dodge, dodge, parry, hit, miss, miss, miss, dodge, dodge, dodge" Instead of stressing out healers? Yeah, I'll take it. I would rather be getting missed a lot than getting hit a lot with a lot of stamina. Sure, Impales do a set amount of damage. But that is why you taunt off at a set debuff amount. Just like all tanks do, 50k life or 40k life. We all pretty much taunt at 2 or 3 stacks of impales. If you don't, you are about to down Gormok and are just eating damage to make it so 2 tanks have debuffs and just Hand of Protection after he dies.
I know I over exaggerate on how often I am missed. But it does happen quite often.
Yeah, doesn't seem like they'd want it to stack. Ah well.
Sidenote: Found out that fully raid buffed in prot with a flask and I sit around 45k health, which is nice because we're gonna try to put together a ToC 25 man to run once a week, and I will probably be tanking until we get another one. >.<
According to the RL, the only concern he has with our group, is the tanks. Because they're mostly from 10 mans, and might not have the needed health, but all the DPS should do at least 4k, and the healers are all solid.
Both myself and my main tank both only sit around 39-41k life and we both tank ToC 25 just fine. Of course we are both defense stacking whores rather than stamina, but all the same. If your RL is worried about your tanks HP rather than your stats that matter more in my opinion, you should tell him to shove it. Mitigation > HP
Mitigation is not the same as avoidance. If you're going for effective health you'd be stacking stam/armor, not defense rating. Anyway, I have 38k unbuffed HP on my Warrior and I still have over 26% dodge. And stacking avoidance doesn't do anything for you when you take magic damage or unavoidable damage like Gormok's impales.
Like it or not, stacking Stam is just plain better right now than avoidance. This is coming from somebody who still gems def/stam and dodge/stam gems in yellow/red sockets too if the set bonuses appeal to me, so it's not like I just blindly stack only stam.
I never said anything about avoidance. I said mitigation. I just use dodge/def gems in all slots except I think 2 right now, or 1 which are taken up by 30 stamina gems. But while tanking and seeing "Miss, miss, miss, dodge, dodge, parry, hit, miss, miss, miss, dodge, dodge, dodge" Instead of stressing out healers? Yeah, I'll take it. I would rather be getting missed a lot than getting hit a lot with a lot of stamina. Sure, Impales do a set amount of damage. But that is why you taunt off at a set debuff amount. Just like all tanks do, 50k life or 40k life. We all pretty much taunt at 2 or 3 stacks of impales. If you don't, you are about to down Gormok and are just eating damage to make it so 2 tanks have debuffs and just Hand of Protection after he dies.
I know I over exaggerate on how often I am missed. But it does happen quite often.
I think we may not be on the same page in terms of talking about mitigation and avoidance. Your chance to dodge/parry/be missed is your avoidance. I don't include blocking when I'm talking about tanking in general because on bosses it just doesn't mean anything. Hell, I block for 6k+ damage off attacks on my Warrior with shield block up, but it still doesn't make that big of a difference on the hard hitters.
Anyway, you can do whatever works for you, but due to diminishing returns, I just think you're wasting a ton of potential effective health gemming the way you do. I just compared your armory to mine(Ashgard on Malfurion if you want to look) and you have 2% more dodge than me, slightly less parry, and a full 6000 less health. I guarantee you a healer would rather heal a tank who is going to get hit 1 in 50 times more often than the other, but have 6000 more health.
If I could compare I would. But, I can not see "game" sites while I am at work. I haven't had complaints about being healed before. I had a "RL" in a mix of greens and blues telling me I was undergeared to tank VoA 10 once. Made me laugh, then we went and ran it PUG with 8 and did fine. But, the def/dodge is working well for me. I might stack stamina at some point when we get more into H ToC, but for now its going well enough.
If I could compare I would. But, I can not see "game" sites while I am at work. I haven't had complaints about being healed before. I had a "RL" in a mix of greens and blues telling me I was undergeared to tank VoA 10 once. Made me laugh, then we went and ran it PUG with 8 and did fine. But, the def/dodge is working well for me. I might stack stamina at some point when we get more into H ToC, but for now its going well enough.
Yeah, you'll certainly do fine just the way you are up until heroic ToC. You won't beat Heroic Northrend Beasts on 25 man, and probably not on 10 man, with only 41k buffed health though. And if you did, it would be via luck and your healers never missing a beat.
I remember back in TBC I had a rule where if my health was enough to live if I ate 3 consecutive attacks from the hardest hitting boss I was tanking with no heals, then I would start to stack avoidance. Unfortunately with the current raid design this isn't feasible because the hard hitters on heroic will kill you in 3 straight hits period, so stam stacking is pretty much king. Like I said, I still gem def/stam in yellow sockets, and dodge/stam in reds if the socket bonus is stam/hit rating or something that i'm willing to sacrifice a bit of stam for, but for instance I got the 245 version of the shoulders from 10m Heroic ToC(not t9, the sunreaver defender's pauldrons) and they have a set bonus of 6 parry rating. Yeah, those got 30 stam gems x2 in them.
Trust me, when I can have 60k health for 20 seconds every 2 minutes(Last stand), healers appreciate that a LOT. As a Paladin, the more health you have, the bigger range you have for AD to kick in, and healers will love you for it.
Been trying out vuhdo instead of grid to heal and I'm liking it. It's a mix between grid and healbot in that it is easy to customize and doesn't need clique or macros to cast spells on hover.
I've almost got it set up exactly how I had grid. The only thing I'm missing is who has aggro. The customizing interface just puts healbot and grid to shame.
It has some neat aspects to it like auto-recognizing my macros by name as I type them and left click rezzing dead targets (that it announces). Came here looking for someone else that uses it to compare and get tips.
Posts
I was thinking http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sVZq0xAMuMGsIufdxf00b:oGNm
Should I drop SotP and put those 5 in Conviction? Anything else wrong with the talents I picked? Also, are those glyphs right?
I just want to farm heroics, quickly and easily.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZV0tAbuMusIufdxfMobh
also, don't glyph Consecrate, it will muck with the spells coming up off cooldown. Chuck Glyph of Divine Plea in there instead.
and the point in Divinity is largely being wasted.
EDIT:
Ok, here's my current tank set. Everything's missing gems and enchants.
I'm missing gear for the neck/chest/wrists/waist/feet/1ring/libram.
I figured I could get the crafted titanium neck/ring, so those are taken care of. Anything else that can be crafted that I should grab?
I'll continue to run as ret until I get enough emblems for a libram. And I guess I'll pick up the rest through drops in heroics. Then just farm emblems until I've filled out my sets for all three specs.
I've decided to pick up my long-neglected 59 pally and solo through Outlands at least before deciding if I want to upgrade to WotLK. Or would Prot be a better choice to solo group quests as I imagine I'll have a hard time finding others to group?
Dhalphir, is there a reason you went with Sanctity of Battle talent in that build? You referred to to Crusade earlier, and that is the "normal" 3-point talent taken in the ret tree for tanks from what I've read. Is there a hidden benefit to Sanctity of Battle that I haven't figured out or read yet (other than the crit that is)?
Fixed : http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZV0tAbuMusIufdxfMobc
ah, thx. Was wondering if I had completely lost my mind, or if the hour had snuck up on me.
I just hit 80 on my paladin tank, and even though I tanked quite a bit in TBC, things have changed a good bit so it's interesting to learn the new tricks and such.
When bosses aren't hitting you for 22000 damage, only getting 5% of heals as mana back makes tanking the heroics that you'll actually be doing begin to suck.
I have 2/2 SA on my paladin and I am continually boggled by prot paladins who complain of any mana issues.
Next time you finish a heroic pull up recount and check out the mana restoration levels, and see how much mana SA gave you. Halve it, and see if you actually lose much.
pull more mobs
Seriously, I love me that Hammer glyph for trash.
But, to each their own.
Just picked up my t9 legs. I'm sitting at 13 triumph badges right now, I am wondering whether you fellas think I would be better off going for shoulders next, to pick up tier 9 4pc asap, or whether I should go for chest, since its a bigger overall upgrade to the current piece.
I'm kind of sitting on the same spot....although I'm sitting at 52(?) badges and mostly just waiting to get to 100 so I can get both.
I am looking into stacking more Block value/rating because I think I'm starting to run into threat issues.
And by threat issues I mean dps is getting to 85% on me...and this is unacceptable!
Lot of fun, though it's weird having so many buttons after the relative snoozefest of bear druid "swipe a lot, and maybe maul and mangle if you're feeling posh" tanking. Must have forgotten about Holy Shield like ten times all told, and doing the first three pulls of Nexus without Righteous Fury (and ALL of Nexus unglyphed) was embarrassing.
And oh god I've still got two more buttons to work in for both Ret and Prot by 80 and my bars are completely full even with seals and blessings and stuff on OPie and oh god
I'd go for chest, just because with expertise on them the shoulders aren't that well itemized for a Tankadin.
I find something like Healbot helps a ton because you can set it up to do all sorts of stuff - Righteous Defense, all your Hands, Sacred Shield, Flash of Light for your Art of War procs, etc. Saves quite a bit of space on your bars.
Seriously, you don't need to put every goddamn spell on your bars. PallyPower is fantastic, and everytime I find a pally without God kills a kitten. Just use something that allows you to see raid frames (hell, the default UI has it built in!) and you can just make mouseover macros for your Hands.
Personally, I use XPerl, Bartender, and PallyPower and that does everything I need for prot/ret (I have a few other extra things, but they're totally optional. Like Serious Help in Timing for Ret, which is kinda nice to have for cooldown management, sometimes)
Both myself and my main tank both only sit around 39-41k life and we both tank ToC 25 just fine. Of course we are both defense stacking whores rather than stamina, but all the same. If your RL is worried about your tanks HP rather than your stats that matter more in my opinion, you should tell him to shove it. Mitigation > HP
Mitigation is not the same as avoidance. If you're going for effective health you'd be stacking stam/armor, not defense rating. Anyway, I have 38k unbuffed HP on my Warrior and I still have over 26% dodge. And stacking avoidance doesn't do anything for you when you take magic damage or unavoidable damage like Gormok's impales.
Like it or not, stacking Stam is just plain better right now than avoidance. This is coming from somebody who still gems def/stam and dodge/stam gems in yellow/red sockets too if the set bonuses appeal to me, so it's not like I just blindly stack only stam.
I never said anything about avoidance. I said mitigation. I just use dodge/def gems in all slots except I think 2 right now, or 1 which are taken up by 30 stamina gems. But while tanking and seeing "Miss, miss, miss, dodge, dodge, parry, hit, miss, miss, miss, dodge, dodge, dodge" Instead of stressing out healers? Yeah, I'll take it. I would rather be getting missed a lot than getting hit a lot with a lot of stamina. Sure, Impales do a set amount of damage. But that is why you taunt off at a set debuff amount. Just like all tanks do, 50k life or 40k life. We all pretty much taunt at 2 or 3 stacks of impales. If you don't, you are about to down Gormok and are just eating damage to make it so 2 tanks have debuffs and just Hand of Protection after he dies.
I know I over exaggerate on how often I am missed. But it does happen quite often.
I think we may not be on the same page in terms of talking about mitigation and avoidance. Your chance to dodge/parry/be missed is your avoidance. I don't include blocking when I'm talking about tanking in general because on bosses it just doesn't mean anything. Hell, I block for 6k+ damage off attacks on my Warrior with shield block up, but it still doesn't make that big of a difference on the hard hitters.
Anyway, you can do whatever works for you, but due to diminishing returns, I just think you're wasting a ton of potential effective health gemming the way you do. I just compared your armory to mine(Ashgard on Malfurion if you want to look) and you have 2% more dodge than me, slightly less parry, and a full 6000 less health. I guarantee you a healer would rather heal a tank who is going to get hit 1 in 50 times more often than the other, but have 6000 more health.
avoidance = dodge/defense/parry/miss
health = health
Yeah, you'll certainly do fine just the way you are up until heroic ToC. You won't beat Heroic Northrend Beasts on 25 man, and probably not on 10 man, with only 41k buffed health though. And if you did, it would be via luck and your healers never missing a beat.
I remember back in TBC I had a rule where if my health was enough to live if I ate 3 consecutive attacks from the hardest hitting boss I was tanking with no heals, then I would start to stack avoidance. Unfortunately with the current raid design this isn't feasible because the hard hitters on heroic will kill you in 3 straight hits period, so stam stacking is pretty much king. Like I said, I still gem def/stam in yellow sockets, and dodge/stam in reds if the socket bonus is stam/hit rating or something that i'm willing to sacrifice a bit of stam for, but for instance I got the 245 version of the shoulders from 10m Heroic ToC(not t9, the sunreaver defender's pauldrons) and they have a set bonus of 6 parry rating. Yeah, those got 30 stam gems x2 in them.
Trust me, when I can have 60k health for 20 seconds every 2 minutes(Last stand), healers appreciate that a LOT. As a Paladin, the more health you have, the bigger range you have for AD to kick in, and healers will love you for it.
I've almost got it set up exactly how I had grid. The only thing I'm missing is who has aggro. The customizing interface just puts healbot and grid to shame.
It has some neat aspects to it like auto-recognizing my macros by name as I type them and left click rezzing dead targets (that it announces). Came here looking for someone else that uses it to compare and get tips.
Also Mitigation=Passive damage reduction from stances/talents