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[WoW][Paladin] More seals than the Burlington Coat Factory.

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Posts

  • HamurabiHamurabi MiamiRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Afaik, taking Divine Sac would pigeonhole you into a weird, specifically OT Protadin spec, because you'd be missing some of the neat utili-talents from deep Ret.

    Hamurabi on
  • Zephyranthes91Zephyranthes91 Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Not at all. I have Divine Sac and I MT for my guild all the time. I've MT'd XT, IC, Thorim, Freya, Hodir, and Vezax Hard Modes with the build. The build that I use is basically the best build that I can think of atm. Gets the necessary talents in all 3 trees and skips most of the filler.

    Zephyranthes91 on
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  • rizriz Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    My Shiver is rocking Mongoose.

    riz on
    Organichu wrote:
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  • CokebotleCokebotle 穴掘りの Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Not at all. I have Divine Sac and I MT for my guild all the time. I've MT'd XT, IC, Thorim, Freya, Hodir, and Vezax Hard Modes with the build. The build that I use is basically the best build that I can think of atm. Gets the necessary talents in all 3 trees and skips most of the filler.

    I'd just think that it's kind of a waste of points to get Divine Sac if you're MTing everything, personally. It seems to be a utility for OT situations only, but that's just me *shrug*

    I use a threat build that goes deeper into Ret for Crusade, which I find works well for me. http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Silver+Hand&n=Arcadain if anyone is curious (or if it even works, since I just kinda guessed the link), or wants to talk about how terrible my spec is, since I logged out as ret.

    Still sad I missed out on a chance for Aesir's Edge, before our other heavy hitters decided to not show up last week. :(

    Cokebotle on
    工事中
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    if you want an avoidance enchant, Blade Ward is the best. if you want threat, go for Accuracy.

    Every other enchant is sub-par.

    Dhalphir on
  • Zephyranthes91Zephyranthes91 Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    The Crusade build sucks now due to the fact that you can't get Seals of the Pure, which is WAY more threat then the 3% increased damage from crusade. I don't Main Tank everything my guild rotates MT between our 3 tanks, Me, a the Guild Leader on his Warrior, and a DK. There's less fights in Ulduar that allow you to use Divine Sac then there are in Coliseum. I use it on phase 2 of Beasts since I don't tank either worm. If I'm on adds on Jaraxxus I'll use it when there are no adds out. I use it on faction champs. In Uld I'd use it on Freya Hard mode on a lasher phase if I'm add tanking. Thorim I'd use it when I have Unbalancing Strike. I'd use it on Vezax while I'd wait for the Animus to spawn. I use it on yogg all the time. It has its uses in a MT build and can save the raid a lot of the time.

    Zephyranthes91 on
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  • CokebotleCokebotle 穴掘りの Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    It's more threat if you use Righteousness, but not Vengeance, though...

    Cokebotle on
    工事中
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    The Crusade build sucks now due to the fact that you can't get Seals of the Pure, which is WAY more threat then the 3% increased damage from crusade. I don't Main Tank everything my guild rotates MT between our 3 tanks, Me, a the Guild Leader on his Warrior, and a DK. There's less fights in Ulduar that allow you to use Divine Sac then there are in Coliseum. I use it on phase 2 of Beasts since I don't tank either worm. If I'm on adds on Jaraxxus I'll use it when there are no adds out. I use it on faction champs. In Uld I'd use it on Freya Hard mode on a lasher phase if I'm add tanking. Thorim I'd use it when I have Unbalancing Strike. I'd use it on Vezax while I'd wait for the Animus to spawn. I use it on yogg all the time. It has its uses in a MT build and can save the raid a lot of the time.

    if you take three tanks to a raid (i don't see why you would these days, but ok) then yeah divine sac is a good talent choice if you're the third tank.

    Dhalphir on
  • Zephyranthes91Zephyranthes91 Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Have you tried doing 25 man Heroic Beasts with 2 tanks? It doesn't give enough time for impales to fall off. We only use 2 for XT, 3 for IC, 1 for Hodir, 3 for Thorim, 2 for Freya. Most fights we wind up having one of us go off spec DPS.
    Cokebotle wrote: »
    It's more threat if you use Righteousness, but not Vengeance, though...

    Umm......what? Have you read the talent?

    Seals of the Pure
    Rank 5/5
    Increases the damage done by your Seal of Righteousness, Seal of Vengeance and Seal of Corruption and their Judgement effects by 15%.

    Zephyranthes91 on
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  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Oh right, we've only made attempts at 25man heroic beasts so far. and i sat out for them. you definitely don't need more than 2 for anything in Ulduar.

    Dhalphir on
  • Zephyranthes91Zephyranthes91 Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    True, we do it as just a precaution. Having an extra tank with another set of cooldowns on say Thorim hard mode for example really helps. we don't usually use all 3 like I said one of us usually goes DPS off spec for fights were we need only 1 or 2.

    Zephyranthes91 on
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  • CokebotleCokebotle 穴掘りの Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Cokebotle wrote: »
    It's more threat if you use Righteousness, but not Vengeance, though...

    Umm......what? Have you read the talent?

    Seals of the Pure
    Rank 5/5
    Increases the damage done by your Seal of Righteousness, Seal of Vengeance and Seal of Corruption and their Judgement effects by 15%.

    Hm... don't remember that. Did they change it since Coliseum dropped?

    But I'd think 3% increased damage for ALL attacks vs just judgements and seals (which don't hit THAT hard as prot) would be better, especially since the bulk of our threat comes from our shield slam and hammer. But, I don't know how our damage breaks down off the top of my head. I'll have to take a look again next time I tank something.

    I could be wrong. *shrug*

    Cokebotle on
    工事中
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    the math has been done
    seals and judgements are a lot more a part of your threat than HotR i'd think, since 3.2. so 15% of that would be more than 3% of everything.

    Dhalphir on
  • CokebotleCokebotle 穴掘りの Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    *shrug* Maybe. I'd look it up myself to see, but network admins and assholes and the like.

    I guess thinking again, with a 4 target Hammer applying the dot for increased damage could help on overall AoE threat... I should probably brush up on some prot stuff post-3.2 then. Didn't know things had changed all THAT much considering. Ah well.

    Cokebotle on
    工事中
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    its probably not a gamebreaking difference

    Dhalphir on
  • CokebotleCokebotle 穴掘りの Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Probably not, but it'd be nice to have a better idea so I can calmly suggest to our new pally tank to NOT gem for mostly +20 expertise gems when he has the Vengeance Glyph >.<

    Edit: Assuming I'm correct in that he doesn't need to do that.

    Cokebotle on
    工事中
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I'm pretty sure with the new seal that 26 expertise is the goal for paladins.

    Dhalphir on
  • CokebotleCokebotle 穴掘りの Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    As in, he has 27 expertise without the seal. He specifically has his gear gemmed for +20 expertise gems in more than a few slots.

    Sorry, was kinda vague about that.

    Edit: Not saying he's incompetant, just... why not gem for stam/avoidance instead and stay capped with the glyph, is all.

    Cokebotle on
    工事中
  • Zephyranthes91Zephyranthes91 Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    The talent has been like that since 3.0 even before Wrath Launched. It's not that it's an AoE boost so much that it's just a huge threat bosst period with the new seal change. If things stay the same as they are on the PTR come next patch Seal of Command is going to be the AoE seal since it procs off Hammer of the Righteous on the PTR.

    Zephyranthes91 on
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  • CokebotleCokebotle 穴掘りの Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Isn't Command supposed to proc off of single target attacks, though? IE, that could be a bug that gets fixed.

    I've been meaning to read up a bit on Command for Ret, too. Where did you read that stuff? Maintankadin or EJ?

    Cokebotle on
    工事中
  • Zephyranthes91Zephyranthes91 Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I think it was posted in the old paladin thread or on the official Paladin forums. Command still sucks for ret compared to Vengeance it's just going to be better than Righteousness for trash packs come 3.2.2.

    Zephyranthes91 on
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  • CokebotleCokebotle 穴掘りの Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Yeah, it's hard to beat Vengeance for bosses, since I can't usually raid 25's and the free 10 expertise is rather nice. I'd been hearing Command is gonna be the new trash seal, which makes me glad I still have 1 point floating around my ret spec unused, because there's literally nowhere I wanna put it.

    Cokebotle on
    工事中
  • CokebotleCokebotle 穴掘りの Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Yeah, looks like SotP and Crusade are about the same if you go deep enough into Ret to unlock the tier, but crusade wins if it's a human, demon, elemental, undead. Gotcha.

    Eh... I think I'm gonna take the points out of Conviction and toss those into Vindication. Sounding like it has 100% uptime and we don't have a warrior, so if I have to tank it'd be nice to have.

    Cokebotle on
    工事中
  • superprokopsuperprokop Registered User
    edited September 2009
    What is our cap on expertise? With my gear I sit right now at 23 (117 rating) should I even worry about getting that last little bit?

    superprokop on
    Too big sig. Rules are for reading.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPI0C]
    Neyla wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    It's sort of like gay sex in prison. You shut your mouth and just grit your teeth and hope you don't come out with a torn rectum.

    Limed for great truth.

    I lol'd hard because it is so true...

    I bet you didn't even give him the courtesy of a reach around!
  • CokebotleCokebotle 穴掘りの Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    26 is the cap, I believe.

    Cokebotle on
    工事中
  • SabreMauSabreMau ネトゲしよう 판다리아Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    26 for dodges, which is all ret really needs. 56 for parries, which is what tanks worry more about.

    SabreMau on
  • superprokopsuperprokop Registered User
    edited September 2009
    So, 56 is what I will be working towards then. Thank you Sabre.

    superprokop on
    Too big sig. Rules are for reading.
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    Neyla wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    It's sort of like gay sex in prison. You shut your mouth and just grit your teeth and hope you don't come out with a torn rectum.

    Limed for great truth.

    I lol'd hard because it is so true...

    I bet you didn't even give him the courtesy of a reach around!
  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    If you're a Paladin tank, you want 26 expertise, period. You do not want more than that unless it's just a BiS piece of gear that has expertise on it. Seriously.

    These are the attacks Prot Paladins use that can be parried:

    Auto attack
    Hammer of the Righteous

    That's it. Below is the list of things that cannot be parried.

    Shield Slam
    Judgment
    Consecrate
    Avenger's Shield
    Holy Shield reflected damage
    Seal of Vengeance ticks

    So as you can see, Expertise above 26(Which is ridiculously easy to get with the SoCorr glyph) is pretty much wasted completely on a Prot Paladin. Prot Paladins don't need to gem for threat ever, ever, ever anyway, but if you really just wanted to gem for it for epeen or because you can't do your rotation properly without doing so, you'd gem Strength.

    Joshmvii on
  • superprokopsuperprokop Registered User
    edited September 2009
    I just gem for avoidance and stamina :)

    I thought that 56 did seem a bit high. I am at work right now, so I am unable to see what my expertise would be with Vengence active. But, I can't be too far off from cap. I rarely see parries against me, I am sure they are there though. Thank you for the in-depth.

    superprokop on
    Too big sig. Rules are for reading.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPI0C]
    Neyla wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    It's sort of like gay sex in prison. You shut your mouth and just grit your teeth and hope you don't come out with a torn rectum.

    Limed for great truth.

    I lol'd hard because it is so true...

    I bet you didn't even give him the courtesy of a reach around!
  • mattclemmattclem Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    the math has been done
    seals and judgements are a lot more a part of your threat than HotR i'd think, since 3.2. so 15% of that would be more than 3% of everything.

    I'm looking at the math - in this case Theck's from Maintankadin - and it's showing up with Crusade having a *big* edge on Demons/Undead/Humans/Elementals and SotP having a *small* edge on others.

    http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/viewtopic.php?p=474815#p474815

    Is there more recent analysis on the subject?

    mattclem on
  • mattclemmattclem Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Joshmvii wrote: »
    So as you can see, Expertise above 26(Which is ridiculously easy to get with the SoCorr glyph) is pretty much wasted completely on a Prot Paladin. Prot Paladins don't need to gem for threat ever, ever, ever anyway, but if you really just wanted to gem for it for epeen or because you can't do your rotation properly without doing so, you'd gem Strength.

    Recent research on Maintankadin has been looking into Expertise-as-avoidance; it's actually started showing up as a lot more worthwhile than I've been giving it credit for. Right now I'd probably take it over an equivalent amount of parry. The key change for us is that the *application* of the SoV DoT is now an extra melee attack, so we're effectively meleeing more than once per hit.

    The research I'm referring to is http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25611 .

    It's still *better* for the likes of warriors - and unless it's a massive upgrade for me I'd defer to a warrior or DK on an expertise item - but I'm reconsidering my "It's not worth it at all" standpoint.

    mattclem on
  • Zephyranthes91Zephyranthes91 Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    It's not worth specifically going after expertise. If it comes on a good piece of gear good for it. But passing up one piece of gear for one with expertise is something you really shouldnt do.

    Zephyranthes91 on
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  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Read that thread Zeph. It makes a lot of sense and the math seems sound.

    Dhalphir on
  • Zephyranthes91Zephyranthes91 Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    The math seems sound, but it still points to the fact that point for point straight avoidance is still better than expertise. Even with the change so SoV it still isn't really worth stacking since 2 attacks benefit it. Now I'm not saying having above 26 is bad and you suck if you have more than that, since my BiS list right now puts me with about 40 expertise with vengeance up. What I'm saying is that don't gem for it, don't enchant for it, and certainly don't pass up a straight avoidance piece for an expertise piece ( say something like T9 Chest vs. Chestplate of Towering Monstrosity.)

    My BiS list follows Ratanna's 3.2 BiS List.

    Zephyranthes91 on
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  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    it does, but I'm sure there cases where you'd have a piece with parry/dodge and a piece with expertise/dodge, where if you worked out the maths, the expertise would equal, or very nearly equal, the parry for avoidance value, and provide threat to boot. AND, expertise reduces damage where it matters the most...spike damage, whereas avoidance may just reduce incoming damage when it doesn't matter.

    Dhalphir on
  • Zephyranthes91Zephyranthes91 Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I don't know I still don't think it's worth going out of your way to get or that beneficial to have more than the 26 needed for dodges.

    Zephyranthes91 on
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  • HamurabiHamurabi MiamiRegistered User regular
    edited September 2009
    I dunno if I'm alone in being really eager to see Block come back as a "serious" mechanic. I mean sure, you only cared about it in TBC because of Crushing Blows, but it still mattered, and people were still concerned with it.

    I've kind of always had a soft spot for the physical act of blocking a blow. I'd be lying if I said part of that intrigue didn't come from the fight scenes in 300. >_>

    Hamurabi on
  • superprokopsuperprokop Registered User
    edited September 2009
    Attempted my first Heroic 10 man ToC. Didn't think anyone was really geared for it to be honest, but we decided to give it a whirl. MT and OT both pallys. I was going to be OT and be on the stationary worm during Beasts. We wipe on that centaur guy because of how much the debuff was ticking for on me and our MT. We decided 4 stacks was too much, and downed it to 3 stacks instead. Going AMAZING through the first phase, nothing going wrong except that the dps seemed a bit low for the fight. Whatever, right? As long as there is no enrage timer and. . . Oh shit, WHY DID THE GATES OPEN?! Out come the 2 worms while we still have our centaur dude out. I think "Oh, SHIT!" MH is yelling at our MT to grab the 1st boss and mobile worm, he drops, I attempt to pick up all 3 (lol good luck) and I drop. Then I hear vent blow up with laughter from our entire group. Wipe or not, the OH SHIT was too funny for us.

    Not going to step back in there for a while I do not think.

    superprokop on
    Too big sig. Rules are for reading.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPI0C]
    Neyla wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    It's sort of like gay sex in prison. You shut your mouth and just grit your teeth and hope you don't come out with a torn rectum.

    Limed for great truth.

    I lol'd hard because it is so true...

    I bet you didn't even give him the courtesy of a reach around!
  • Zephyranthes91Zephyranthes91 Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Yeah you have either a 3 or 4 minute timer in between boss spawns for Beasts on Heroic. The timer is the only thing that makes 25 man heroic difficult aside from tank damage.

    Zephyranthes91 on
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  • NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    edited September 2009
    Yeah you have either a 3 or 4 minute timer in between boss spawns for Beasts on Heroic. The timer is the only thing that makes 25 man heroic difficult aside from tank damage.


    It's 3 IIRC, and the main problem I saw with heroic beasts was people learning that "Not Standing In Shit" was much more important. As in, the tank is pointing the fire worm away from the raid for a reason. If he's having to reposition the worm (to get the fire dot closer to the poison worm tank), being in front of the fire worm is a "Bad Idea."

    Nobody on
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