As was foretold, we've added advertisements to the forums! If you have questions, or if you encounter any bugs, please visit this thread: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/240191/forum-advertisement-faq-and-reports-thread/
Options
Obama v. United Steel
The Green Eyed Monster
i blame hip hopRegistered User regular
i blame hip hopRegistered User regular
The short version is this: United Steelworkers wants President Obama to impose an "anti-dumping duty" (tariff) against Chinese tires, in part, because the same claim was denied to them all throughout Bush II's presidency. The ruling is upcoming, and many view Obama's decision on the tariff to be a strong indicator of how his administration will handle global trade -- will he side with unions and protect American labor, or will he instead value the interest of China as a trading partner?
The long version is in this article from the Wall Street Journal. Relevant excerpts below:
Now, frankly, I'm pro-union, but not in matters like this. This is just dumb, trying to unnaturally force a market competitor out by strong-arming politicians. It's not often I can say I agree with Bush the Lesser, but he was right to toss out previous tariff complaints (except in the really stupid case with steel early in his administration, that he was forced out of by trading partners). Hopefully Obama will follow suit.
The long version is in this article from the Wall Street Journal. Relevant excerpts below:
WASHINGTON -- A politically charged case involving Chinese tire imports will soon force the hand of an Obama administration that has yet to articulate a clear trade policy to anxious global trading partners.
President Barack Obama has until Sept. 17 to rule on a U.S. International Trade Commission recommendation that the White House put a 55% tariff on low-grade car tires imported from China. The ITC's finding followed a complaint by the United Steelworkers that a flood of cheap Chinese tires in recent years had cost more than 5,000 union jobs.
<...>
"Given that the [tire] petition was supported only by unions and not by the U.S. tire industry, our allies will want to see whether the administration's trade policy is informed by broader national economic interests or dictated by Democratic caucus politics," said Daniel Price, former assistant to Mr. Bush for international economic affairs and now a partner specializing in trade at law firm Sidley Austin.
<...>
American tire distributors and retailers say import penalties will do more harm than good, costing jobs and forcing Americans who rely on affordable tires to continue driving on old, worn tires. A set of four Chinese tires sold under the brand name "Finalist" retail for around $200 -- about half what premium brand names cost.
"Spending $400 to replace tires is a major expense for some folks," said Jim Mayfield, president of Del-Nat Tire Corp. of Memphis, Tenn., a large importer of Chinese tires. "This action would cost small tire retailers jobs and their customers money."
Now, frankly, I'm pro-union, but not in matters like this. This is just dumb, trying to unnaturally force a market competitor out by strong-arming politicians. It's not often I can say I agree with Bush the Lesser, but he was right to toss out previous tariff complaints (except in the really stupid case with steel early in his administration, that he was forced out of by trading partners). Hopefully Obama will follow suit.
The Green Eyed Monster on
0
Posts
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
Imposing a tariff because those Chinese tires are going to be made in vile factories with little to no regulation and the equivalent of slave labor? I'm ok with that, but unfortunately, that's never why they impose tariffs...
A valid complaint would be something like
"they get subsidies to make tires in china"
or
"they rape the environment to produce those tires at that price"
or
"the tires are unsafe"
"it's costing us jobs" is not a valid complaint....if that's the reasoning why do we allow imports of everything else from china?
Smoot-Hawley and all that?
The reason I mention all this is because, for most of the stuff that we import from China, we don't actually have comparable US manufacturing plants handling the same product any longer, so it doesn't really make sense to make a case for a tariff against cheap plastic goods if there's no US industry in place to pick up the slack.
If you're bored, feel free to scroll down a little bit on this page and click through the chapters to see the various duty rates. Apparel is chapters 61-64, if you want to see the tariffs paid on items you might have purchased.
I look forward to the next two weeks of crazy talk about this.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Pretty much this.
this is exactly how I feel about this.
as to which direction I want him to take?
On the one hand- increasing domestic jobs and domestic revenue is a good idea, but not at the expense of a powerful global trade partner
But chinese manufacturing is fraught with problems relating to quality and employee treatment (which I, and hopefully America! opposes)
BUT BUT we also don't really (as someone stated) have the infrastructure in place to meet demand if we lessen the supply of foreign tires.
very torn
Yeah, I was more referring to protectionist tariff policy that's specifically imposed to drive imports out of the market in favor of domestic production (which in this case doesn't even really exist).
Yeah. I wouldn't mind it if they were conditions they could meet to have the tariff reduced through having less shitty factories, but that won't happen or they won't reduce the tariff even if they started giving their employees free blowjobs.
If not this, then something else. I really hope his policy decision have absolutely no consideration for the morons who will try to spin it either way.
Domestic manufacturing (traditional) is dead. That's just a fact. Trying to price out imported competition when there is little to no infrastructure and next-to-no production of the same product domestically is just retarded.
If we want to save manufacturing in this country it will be restored by the green movement. Import tariffs aren't going to do anything useful.
The reason Chinese tires are cheap has a lot to do with their deplorable manufacturing processes. We may be able to produce similar products at only slightly more expensive costs here, but I imagine there's a reason we just buy the cheap stuff from China.
Atleast he'll be able to talk to school children in peace now.
Basically, if he slapped a 25% tariff on the tires, the Chinese manufacturers would still bring a cheaper product to market than American manufacturing can produce, at a slightly higher cost to the American consumer, only in this instance China (and probably the WTO) would be pissed that the US was essentially skimming off the top against the interest of free trade.
No I understand all that. I didn't elaborate, but that is what I was getting at. You are correct- this isn't just "Take Tire manufacturing from China and put it in American hands" Right now are hands are full, if there at all.
And there is no guarantee that this will create jobs anyhow, as it may just increase the price for imported and domestic tires. Which is bad for consumers but good for business.
Really I don't like this whole situation
Generally, the idea is that China is selling at prices low enough that it can only be sustained by charging more normal prices elsewhere or having a ridiculous rainy day fund. Because smaller, more regional suppliers can't afford to sell at a loss for as long a time as the international seller, they go out of business, allowing the international to raise prices due to the industry "supply shortage" and a "jump in demand." If the industry has high barriers to entry, new companies can't be formed to take advantage of the inflated prices, especially if the now monopoly blackballs anyone who tries to also sell the start-ups' products.
If Chinese tire producers really are doing this, imposing a tariff to keep prices over the price where they'd be sold at a loss makes lots of sense.
Umm, the domestic manufacturing sector is doing great in this country, actually. There just aren't any jobs in it. Blue collar workers haven't been forced out by cheap Japanese/Mexican/Taiwanese/Chinese/Vietnamese labour nearly as much as they have been forced out by cheap robotic labour. That isn't uniform across all industries, but its the primary trend. Don't complain about Hu Jintao, complain about R. Daneel Olivaw.
I wasn't complaining... just stating.
The (supposed) impetus behind this tariff idea is preserving U.S. manufacturing jobs... which is absurd because a) we don't even make the same grade of tire, and b) it's a ridiculously small portion of our manufacturing industry to risk pissing off the guys who own our country (China).
It would be an interesting WTO framework, but almost completely impossible to manage. Independent investigations into working conditions, environmental stewardship, domestic subsidies, &c. having a direct impact on tariffs between countries acting as a means to promote reform and ultimately promoting free trade as the end result too. Just too bad that I'm sure there's a lot of problems I'm missing.
*If Obama's going to side with the unions, he'll do it fast.
*If he's going to side against them, he'll drag his feet.
It all comes back to the healthcare bill, really. Everything. All other issues, take a number. The unions are starting to go on offense, Obama doesn't need that, and if he's got a sop to give them so they'll calm down, he'll give it.
It's kind of interesting how much more important things appear from the other side.
So then why are unions pushing for a tariff in the first place? Are they just stupid?
Probably because when the choice is between cheaper tires of average quality and expensive tires of premium quality, they don't get as many sales as if the choice is between expensive tires of average quality and expensive tires of premium quality?
A rough idea why:
The almighty United States simply doesn't need to care as much about the trade balance. It who produces a quarter of the world's GDP by itself can pretty much ignore minor trade issues.
Besides, it isn't really about tires per se, but more concern over where the administration intends to take trade policy in the future. Then the impacts stack up.
(as an aside, it is indeed probably true that the tariff will cost both sides)
edit:
Huh, okay. The "federal trade panel" is the US ITC. How nonpartisan is it, in reality?
edit #2: also, as AP notes:
which is true. But it also doesn't make too much sense, if this is supposed to be a union-appeasing move. Huh.
Everyone in the union hears about it and is happy, people who are potentially angered by it have a shot of missing it.
Come Overwatch with meeeee
I personally am ecstatic when foreign governments spend money so that we get more goods for cheaper.
In other words, "just exactly what everyone needs right now."
Sadly, this is the whole collective action problem.
The vast vast majority of people are more interested in saving a dollar, especially right now, than avoiding a brand.
So we get the government to impose these selective tariffs for us, and skip the consensus bit, which is idiotic here.
It's like with the environment - we should take the chance to correctly and morally do all we can to prevent the short-sighted among us from saving money by spreading the suffering to others who are much more constricted and poor. Our demand for goods that are cheap because the labor is exploited creates externalities for other humans, and we can't have that.
3rd world countries don't necessarily produce goods cheaply because of labor exploitation.
Their production advantage comes from having such low costs of living that a fair and non-exploitative wage for unskilled labor can still exist well below the subsistence wages of more developed nations.
Yeah, that's something a lot of people really don't understand. They hear "ZOMG These people are forced to live on $0.50 per day!" when in actuality, that's usually a living wage where they are located.
Not saying that these people are living comfortably, but it's not necessarily "evil" to pay them these low wages. Boycotting products made in these situations just screws the workers there.
I'm also not claiming the Chinese tire labor force is paid a just wage (whatever that means), because I don't know specifically. All I'm saying is research what you're boycotting before your self-righteous crusade is actually taking food out of the mouths of people you think you're helping.
("You" not directed at anyone in particular, here)