I have had the exact same problems since launch, ebotastic.
This game really has DOTA syndrome. In DOTA, as soon as their character died or they thought their team was going to lose... Randomguy32 has left the game.
In L4D this isn't even just when my friends and I are pubstomping, this is every single game. No one wants to join a quick match once it is past the first round. Nor do they want to join in on a losing round.
It really made me sad to think I have only had one or two good random public games.
The last two games I've played have been against "friends" of friends. The first game of those two ended up with the other team playing Race4Dead right from the first map. And the second game had the other team quit in the second half of the finale, citing the "game was over". I was quick to remind them that, no, my team still had our turn to go as infected, but apparently the lead in score my team had being insurmountable even since the start of the second half of the fourth map escaped their notice until just then. :rotate:
So I haven't played L4D in 2-3 weeks because it's so insanely frustrating sometimes, even when I try to have the variables controlled.
I would always be infected first. I knew I was going to stay for their turn at the finale, but I can never get the reverse to happen to me. It is pretty sad. I think the community ruined L4D for me more than the lack of updates.
I have had the exact same problems since launch, ebotastic.
This game really has DOTA syndrome. In DOTA, as soon as their character died or they thought their team was going to lose... Randomguy32 has left the game.
In L4D this isn't even just when my friends and I are pubstomping, this is every single game. No one wants to join a quick match once it is past the first round. Nor do they want to join in on a losing round.
It really made me sad to think I have only had one or two good random public games.
The last two games I've played have been against "friends" of friends. The first game of those two ended up with the other team playing Race4Dead right from the first map. And the second game had the other team quit in the second half of the finale, citing the "game was over". I was quick to remind them that, no, my team still had our turn to go as infected, but apparently the lead in score my team had being insurmountable even since the start of the second half of the fourth map escaped their notice until just then. :rotate:
So I haven't played L4D in 2-3 weeks because it's so insanely frustrating sometimes, even when I try to have the variables controlled.
I would always be infected first. I knew I was going to stay for their turn at the finale, but I can never get the reverse to happen to me. It is pretty sad. I think the community ruined L4D for me more than the lack of updates.
This is a problem with a lot of online games I've played. Most recently for me, Killzone 2 had nothing but this. I'd join a game and we'd be down a bit after a bit, and I think "no big deal, we can come back in the coming rounds." Then the team just descends into terrible rounds, until I look at the player counts and realize my team left after being down just a bit. I've had games where literally I ended up being the only one left after losing by just a bit for only a few minutes. People suck sometimes. They just want to shoot some people and feel superior.
Incendiary rounds for one, seems to ruin the core of the game.
We don't know how often the ammo is showing up. I mean, yeah, it sort of detracts to a certain extent, but it also depends on how it's implemented and how common it is.
Not to mention, I think everything else is going to counterbalance it. I mean, the only degradation would essentially be that it makes incoming hoardes releatively nonthreatening, but it sounds like there will be PLENTY of other stuff to fuck over your team on Expert anyway.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
Looks like other character flash lights still don't illuminate for you. Which is kind of annoying but I understand it might be an engine limitation?
Yeah, pretty sure it would cause the Source engine to explode.
Isn't Killing Floor on Source?
'Cause while not perfect, other player flashlights show up for me in that.
Which isn't to say that L4D might not be modified in such a way that it's unfeasible with everything else going on, and thus, the likely far vaster number of things to illuminate, but I'm just saying it seems that it can be done.
I think the issue isn't rendering the lights, it is networking. Each flashlight for each player is something that has to be constantly updated and predicated. Then again I could be completely wrong.
I am worried that all these new additions to the game are going to degrade the core experience. If you think about Team Fortress Classic versus TF2, they stripped down the game in way that I think really paid off. L4D2 sounds like the opposite.
Degrade it how? And what are you defining as the "core experience"?
One would wonder why they were changing so much about the "core gameplay" in a sequel and not the ori-
OH SNAP.
As for the discussion about people rage quitting and such. This happens with every online game in existence (I was playing NS the other day and we lost a hive, all of my team except me and a few others quit instantly despite still having a chance to win). There is nothing unique to L4D about this guys.
Looks like other character flash lights still don't illuminate for you. Which is kind of annoying but I understand it might be an engine limitation?
Yeah, pretty sure it would cause the Source engine to explode.
Isn't Killing Floor on Source?
'Cause while not perfect, other player flashlights show up for me in that.
Which isn't to say that L4D might not be modified in such a way that it's unfeasible with everything else going on, and thus, the likely far vaster number of things to illuminate, but I'm just saying it seems that it can be done.
I think the issue isn't rendering the lights, it is networking. Each flashlight for each player is something that has to be constantly updated and predicated. Then again I could be completely wrong.
I am worried that all these new additions to the game are going to degrade the core experience. If you think about Team Fortress Classic versus TF2, they stripped down the game in way that I think really paid off. L4D2 sounds like the opposite.
Degrade it how? And what are you defining as the "core experience"?
One would wonder why they were changing so much about the "core gameplay" in a sequel and not the ori-
OH SNAP.
As for the discussion about people rage quitting and such. This happens with every online game in existence (I was playing NS the other day and we lost a hive, all of my team except me and a few others quit instantly despite still having a chance to win). There is nothing unique to L4D about this guys.
Totally, it's been going on since the early days of online gaming, but there's a certain sadness that comes out of it on L4D, because the game is based so much around co-op. If the Pubbers had the balls to stick around, and the brains to understand that "Losing doesn't make you less of a player" then we'd all have a much more enjoyable experience.
The A.I. covers it to a certain point, but neither side in a versus match enjoys that. The Survivors cannot communicate with/guide the A.I., and from an Infected standpoint it pulls of rare moments of sheer gun-fu it confounds gameplay mechanics. We were doing No Mercy on Versus today in a Pub game, and in the alleyway of the first map, myself and another Hunter pounced at the same time, two different targets - one A.I., one human. The human missed with the shotgun. The A.I. with the Shotgun on the other hand, managed to blow both of us out of the sky before we could land.
The exclusion of ranking (outside of Survival Mode, naturally) should encourage players not to ragequit, because there's nothing at stake. You're no more or less of a man for racking up a 4800 to 200 score in a versus game, regardless of what side you're on in that situation.
/rant mode off.
Addendum: There's still plenty of development time to go, and I hope they use it to work on the models a little bit more. The common infected look great, but I noticed the old skin of the Hunter in one part of the video, and it just doesn't make sense to keep it - the game's setting would sort of shun away from wearing dark, baggy clothing. Perhaps some sort of surfer-Hunter look would be better?
I don't know if I can blame people for not finding getting beaten 4800 to 200 fun.
I mean, I would stick around because I play with people I like to play with (although those peole wouldn't get raped like that), but I can't blame random pubbie for not having fun getting his or her ass handed to them. I mean, I know there's other reasons to play games, but fun is one of them, and if you're not having fun, you have little incentive to stick around.
EDIT:
I mean, this is independent on winning and losing. If you're getting beat THAT badly, you're not getting to play enough of a level for it to really be fun, and you sure as shit aren't doing dick as an infected player.
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DunxcoShould get a suitNever skips breakfastRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
That's true. It's the old individualism/altruism argument, and I'm firmly on the side of "If people are having fun, who am I to come in and stomp on their sand castles?". There's plenty of people wired the other way, and you're totally right, TwistedFate. As corny as it sounds, I just want everyone to have a good time in the game, and all I interpret quitting mid-game is player(s) not having fun, then leaving, which starts a cascade effect for everyone else. I'm actually starting to see "server shutting down: Not enough players" messages and it's kinda disheartening.
I have an idea, in order to spice things up in VS, hunters\smokers and Boomers should have regenerative health if they stay out of the fray for a few seconds
I have an idea, in order to spice things up in VS, hunters\smokers and Boomers should have regenerative health if they stay out of the fray for a few seconds
What ya think?
This reminds me of my old strategy of accidentally taking a stray bullet or a whole lot of purposeful bullets and then running as fast as I could in the opposite direction so I could respawn and gain all my health back. Good times.
EDIT
If Valve wants to insta-win my buy for L4D2, which is already practically a given, one word: explode.
Give it back to me, Valve...
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I have an idea, in order to spice things up in VS, hunters\smokers and Boomers should have regenerative health if they stay out of the fray for a few seconds
What ya think?
Bo-ring
What I'd like to see are some rare variations on the boomer/hunter/smoker that only come up like maybe 1 out of 20 spawns in Vs. Like a boomer that's even fatter than usual but can roll around like the goddamn Indiana Jones boulder down ramps and wide stairwells or can propel himself along straightaways by spraying bile, hunters that lack the whole facerape ability but instead can yank up survivors like the Charger and jump around with them for a bit before dumping them/the survivor breaks free, and a smoker that can do shit like zip-line across distances using their tongue and instead of just choking survivors can use his tongue to smack them around into stuff like a big human morning star or bola thing.
The tank? He loses the ability to throw shit, but wears trash cans for boxing gloves.
I have an idea, in order to spice things up in VS, hunters\smokers and Boomers should have regenerative health if they stay out of the fray for a few seconds
What ya think?
That doesn't spice anything up, it just encourages them to pussy out more often.
I want an infected that jumps on a survivor, burrows into their brain and takes control over their bodies (if other survivors don't shoot/melee you off in time). At which point the controlled survivor can turn their guns on the others.
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NappuccinoSurveyor of Things and StuffRegistered Userregular
Incendiary rounds for one, seems to ruin the core of the game.
We don't know how often the ammo is showing up. I mean, yeah, it sort of detracts to a certain extent, but it also depends on how it's implemented and how common it is.
Not to mention, I think everything else is going to counterbalance it. I mean, the only degradation would essentially be that it makes incoming hoardes releatively nonthreatening, but it sounds like there will be PLENTY of other stuff to fuck over your team on Expert anyway.[/QUOTE]
I'm more worried about VS atm... that's where the long term draw is for me.
Amazingly insightful chat with Chet that will fall on many, many deaf ears.
What's so insightful? It's all the same stuff he said in the last interview, and that Doug Lombardi said in his interview. What it basically comes down to is "trust us", which I generally will. Doesn't change the fact that when I look at the footage it looks just like Left 4 Dead. That's not necessarily a bad thing, I was just expecting that they'd take their time and really push things with a sequel. I do tend to agree that the stuff their pushing would have to work as an integrated whole, not something you can dole out piecemeal, so charging for it makes sense.
It was interesting to hear that even Gabe Newell didn't think it was a good idea though.
Incendiary rounds for one, seems to ruin the core of the game.
We don't know how often the ammo is showing up. I mean, yeah, it sort of detracts to a certain extent, but it also depends on how it's implemented and how common it is.
Not to mention, I think everything else is going to counterbalance it. I mean, the only degradation would essentially be that it makes incoming hoardes releatively nonthreatening, but it sounds like there will be PLENTY of other stuff to fuck over your team on Expert anyway.[/QUOTE]
I'm more worried about VS atm... that's where the long term draw is for me.
We don't even know if it's IN Versus. I mean, that's a valid concern, but you can't peg something for degrading the core experience if you don't know it's in the game.
That'd be like me saying "Gee, I sure hope every common infected isn't a tank during versus mode".
There is something people keep bringing up that I'm curious about, though. What exactly do you consider pushing the envelope in terms of making a "true" sequel. I mean, I may say it's fair to say what we're getting seems a little expansion-y and not sequel-ish, but to demand more without really stipulating what that looks like seems a bit off.
Especially because I trust Valve as game designers to the extent where suggesting "Oh, the sequel should have been a gigantic sandbox city" makes me believe that they don't think it contributes to what they're going for and that it would be a bad game design in general.
EDIT:
I love how that article has the paraphrase from Gabe talking about how he thought the idea of a sequel this soon didn't fit the character of the company, but that "if this is what you [dev team] want to do, if this is what you're excited about, go do it."
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So the team brought their concepts and ideas to create a sequel to Gabe Newell, and even he was skeptical about the idea. According to Faliszek, he expressed his doubts, and claimed this move was against the character of the company. "To Gabe's credit, and he's a great guy to work for, he said if this is what you want to do, if this is what you're excited about, go do it."
So I guess my feelings about this were right, this is a Turtlerock project first, and Valve second.
The thing is, he's not describing a sequel in that interview. He's describing an expansion pack. Which is something I would happily buy. I would love a good expansion pack for L4D, but there's no way I'm paying full game price for what amounts to a slightly shinier version of a game I bought 8 months ago. Especially since half of this project is what they already promised to bring to the original.
It's also laughable to compare this to the Orange Box. That was 2 full games and 3 episodic games for $50. HL2 and Ep 1 were basically free gifts with that.
I'm still holding out hope that they'll realize why people are so annoyed by this, and change their minds. But as-is, this is still a pretty dick move.
The thing is, he's not describing a sequel in that interview. He's describing an expansion pack. Which is something I would happily buy. I would love a good expansion pack for L4D, but there's no way I'm paying full game price for what amounts to a slightly shinier version of a game I bought 8 months ago. Especially since half of this project is what they already promised to bring to the original.
It's also laughable to compare this to the Orange Box. That was 2 full games and 3 episodic games for $50. HL2 and Ep 1 were basically free gifts with that.
I'm still holding out hope that they'll realize why people are so annoyed by this, and change their minds. But as-is, this is still a pretty dick move.
L4D2 is steep. Orange Box was a crazy value. I have no doubt they'll sell a ton of L4D2 copies at $50.
Show of hands. (Poll?) Who'll buy it at $50 day one?
The thing is, he's not describing a sequel in that interview. He's describing an expansion pack. Which is something I would happily buy. I would love a good expansion pack for L4D, but there's no way I'm paying full game price for what amounts to a slightly shinier version of a game I bought 8 months ago. Especially since half of this project is what they already promised to bring to the original.
It's also laughable to compare this to the Orange Box. That was 2 full games and 3 episodic games for $50. HL2 and Ep 1 were basically free gifts with that.
I'm still holding out hope that they'll realize why people are so annoyed by this, and change their minds. But as-is, this is still a pretty dick move.
L4D2 is steep. Orange Box was a crazy value. I have no doubt they'll sell a ton of L4D2 copies at $50.
Show of hands. (Poll?) Who'll buy it at $50 day one?
At the current rate, I'll only buy it deeply discounted.
Reading the interview, he's still just being as intentionally misleading as he did in the interview last year about new characters, weapons, movies, achievements, unlocks for L4D1. "Continued support" for L4D1 really means 1) Stuff they were already working on anyway 2) And has made no mention of support AFTER L4D2 is released 3) or if he implies it will be, what he really means it'll be up to the community to do it. i.e. Mappers who make their maps compatible for L4D1 instead of fully using features of L4D2 (again, he has only mentioned 1-way compatibility so far), i.e. gimping their maps for the 2nd class community still playing the old game instead of the new one.
The "it's too complex for an expansion, which is why we're gonna release it as a sequel at full sequel price" is pure bullshit. Relic did it for years, over like 4 expansions, for Dawn of War and Company of Heroes. The expansions had so much stuff they weren't compatible with the old game, so what did they do? Release it at expansion price, and allow you to enter in your keys from the original game/earlier expansion to use races/campaigns from them.
Nor have they viably addressed what happens to the L4D1 community that doesn't upgrade despite their claims of "we don't want to split the community." Making mappers make L4D1 compatible maps will not increase the number of L4D1 servers and players.
See, the year here helpfully suggests to smart consumers that there will be another version next year, allowing people to adjust expectations and finances accordingly. A vast improvement!
Some of the complaints on that boycott list are fucking ridiculous. Oh noes! The game is set during the daylight hours, zombies can't possibly be scary during the day!
The New Orleans day time setting was the first thing that I noticed and the first thing that I liked about seeing L4D2 screens. Making a stupid online boycott declaring the change of music and setting because Joe Gamer doesn't feel it fits the aesthetic is retarded.
I swear, gamers and their sense of entitlement are a fucking annoying lot at most times anymore.
When this game sells through the roof, will it finally be proof that people who post on GAF/Digg/etc. aren't remotely in touch with what the market wants?
Because if that's the case, I'd pay triple. God I hate nerds sometimes.
I don't see what all the hate is about. The amount of new content given in L4D2 is enough to warrant a $50 price tag. (chainsaws, come on people)
The hate is about people disagreeing with your statement here.
yeah, i suppose you're right. I think valve has given so much for free, that people have become conditioned to it. They expect to get all this great new content for free.
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I would always be infected first. I knew I was going to stay for their turn at the finale, but I can never get the reverse to happen to me. It is pretty sad. I think the community ruined L4D for me more than the lack of updates.
This is a problem with a lot of online games I've played. Most recently for me, Killzone 2 had nothing but this. I'd join a game and we'd be down a bit after a bit, and I think "no big deal, we can come back in the coming rounds." Then the team just descends into terrible rounds, until I look at the player counts and realize my team left after being down just a bit. I've had games where literally I ended up being the only one left after losing by just a bit for only a few minutes. People suck sometimes. They just want to shoot some people and feel superior.
We don't know how often the ammo is showing up. I mean, yeah, it sort of detracts to a certain extent, but it also depends on how it's implemented and how common it is.
Not to mention, I think everything else is going to counterbalance it. I mean, the only degradation would essentially be that it makes incoming hoardes releatively nonthreatening, but it sounds like there will be PLENTY of other stuff to fuck over your team on Expert anyway.
One would wonder why they were changing so much about the "core gameplay" in a sequel and not the ori-
OH SNAP.
As for the discussion about people rage quitting and such. This happens with every online game in existence (I was playing NS the other day and we lost a hive, all of my team except me and a few others quit instantly despite still having a chance to win). There is nothing unique to L4D about this guys.
Totally, it's been going on since the early days of online gaming, but there's a certain sadness that comes out of it on L4D, because the game is based so much around co-op. If the Pubbers had the balls to stick around, and the brains to understand that "Losing doesn't make you less of a player" then we'd all have a much more enjoyable experience.
The A.I. covers it to a certain point, but neither side in a versus match enjoys that. The Survivors cannot communicate with/guide the A.I., and from an Infected standpoint it pulls of rare moments of sheer gun-fu it confounds gameplay mechanics. We were doing No Mercy on Versus today in a Pub game, and in the alleyway of the first map, myself and another Hunter pounced at the same time, two different targets - one A.I., one human. The human missed with the shotgun. The A.I. with the Shotgun on the other hand, managed to blow both of us out of the sky before we could land.
The exclusion of ranking (outside of Survival Mode, naturally) should encourage players not to ragequit, because there's nothing at stake. You're no more or less of a man for racking up a 4800 to 200 score in a versus game, regardless of what side you're on in that situation.
/rant mode off.
Addendum: There's still plenty of development time to go, and I hope they use it to work on the models a little bit more. The common infected look great, but I noticed the old skin of the Hunter in one part of the video, and it just doesn't make sense to keep it - the game's setting would sort of shun away from wearing dark, baggy clothing. Perhaps some sort of surfer-Hunter look would be better?
I mean, I would stick around because I play with people I like to play with (although those peole wouldn't get raped like that), but I can't blame random pubbie for not having fun getting his or her ass handed to them. I mean, I know there's other reasons to play games, but fun is one of them, and if you're not having fun, you have little incentive to stick around.
EDIT:
I mean, this is independent on winning and losing. If you're getting beat THAT badly, you're not getting to play enough of a level for it to really be fun, and you sure as shit aren't doing dick as an infected player.
What ya think?
This reminds me of my old strategy of accidentally taking a stray bullet or a whole lot of purposeful bullets and then running as fast as I could in the opposite direction so I could respawn and gain all my health back. Good times.
EDIT
If Valve wants to insta-win my buy for L4D2, which is already practically a given, one word: explode.
Give it back to me, Valve...
tied scores after finale. I should also mention that when i joined the pubstomp I quickly turned the game around against the evil PAers.
What I'd like to see are some rare variations on the boomer/hunter/smoker that only come up like maybe 1 out of 20 spawns in Vs. Like a boomer that's even fatter than usual but can roll around like the goddamn Indiana Jones boulder down ramps and wide stairwells or can propel himself along straightaways by spraying bile, hunters that lack the whole facerape ability but instead can yank up survivors like the Charger and jump around with them for a bit before dumping them/the survivor breaks free, and a smoker that can do shit like zip-line across distances using their tongue and instead of just choking survivors can use his tongue to smack them around into stuff like a big human morning star or bola thing.
The tank? He loses the ability to throw shit, but wears trash cans for boxing gloves.
That doesn't spice anything up, it just encourages them to pussy out more often.
Amazingly insightful chat with Chet that will fall on many, many deaf ears.
What's so insightful? It's all the same stuff he said in the last interview, and that Doug Lombardi said in his interview. What it basically comes down to is "trust us", which I generally will. Doesn't change the fact that when I look at the footage it looks just like Left 4 Dead. That's not necessarily a bad thing, I was just expecting that they'd take their time and really push things with a sequel. I do tend to agree that the stuff their pushing would have to work as an integrated whole, not something you can dole out piecemeal, so charging for it makes sense.
It was interesting to hear that even Gabe Newell didn't think it was a good idea though.
So I guess my feelings about this were right, this is a Turtlerock project first, and Valve second.
Send all the hate there, fellas!
It's also laughable to compare this to the Orange Box. That was 2 full games and 3 episodic games for $50. HL2 and Ep 1 were basically free gifts with that.
I'm still holding out hope that they'll realize why people are so annoyed by this, and change their minds. But as-is, this is still a pretty dick move.
L4D2 is steep. Orange Box was a crazy value. I have no doubt they'll sell a ton of L4D2 copies at $50.
Show of hands. (Poll?) Who'll buy it at $50 day one?
At the current rate, I'll only buy it deeply discounted.
Reading the interview, he's still just being as intentionally misleading as he did in the interview last year about new characters, weapons, movies, achievements, unlocks for L4D1. "Continued support" for L4D1 really means 1) Stuff they were already working on anyway 2) And has made no mention of support AFTER L4D2 is released 3) or if he implies it will be, what he really means it'll be up to the community to do it. i.e. Mappers who make their maps compatible for L4D1 instead of fully using features of L4D2 (again, he has only mentioned 1-way compatibility so far), i.e. gimping their maps for the 2nd class community still playing the old game instead of the new one.
The "it's too complex for an expansion, which is why we're gonna release it as a sequel at full sequel price" is pure bullshit. Relic did it for years, over like 4 expansions, for Dawn of War and Company of Heroes. The expansions had so much stuff they weren't compatible with the old game, so what did they do? Release it at expansion price, and allow you to enter in your keys from the original game/earlier expansion to use races/campaigns from them.
Nor have they viably addressed what happens to the L4D1 community that doesn't upgrade despite their claims of "we don't want to split the community." Making mappers make L4D1 compatible maps will not increase the number of L4D1 servers and players.
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The New Orleans day time setting was the first thing that I noticed and the first thing that I liked about seeing L4D2 screens. Making a stupid online boycott declaring the change of music and setting because Joe Gamer doesn't feel it fits the aesthetic is retarded.
I swear, gamers and their sense of entitlement are a fucking annoying lot at most times anymore.
Agreed. Having at least one unique enemy or enemy type in each campaign would do a lot towards adding some much needed variety to the game.
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Because if that's the case, I'd pay triple. God I hate nerds sometimes.
The issue is there's no word on content release, not yet.
The fact that people are using Valve's exceptional work with supporting TF2 to attack Valve with is just the worst
-"hey do you like Left 4 Dead?"
"I love it"
-"That's great, cause we're making a sequel"
"fuck you"
The hate is about people disagreeing with your statement here.
Then they should choose not to buy the fucking game. It's that simple. Proposing a retarded online boycott is childish and histrionic.
yeah, i suppose you're right. I think valve has given so much for free, that people have become conditioned to it. They expect to get all this great new content for free.