Man, magic resistance really took a hit with the "not targeted" ruling. Now that shit like Wind of Undeath and Black Horror bypass MR and Ring of Hotek (well, only some with RoH) I'm a little less high on spending a lot of points on it.
Yeah, I have literally never had Gaze of Nagash or Curse of Years cast on any of my units, out of like 10 games against VC. I feel for armies like HE where the massive amount of MR is sort of a selling point. Of course, they also get Drain Magic and dispel at +1, so...
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
edited June 2009
so yeah
would the army be totally neutered without any sort of dispell?
This sort of brings up a discussion that pops up on other boards, how would you rank the armies? It's hard to be objective, but from the way I see it (not really in order):
Top tier
Demons of Chaos
Vampire Counts
Both armies can take all comers with a basic list and will annoy the shit out of just about any army. Some armies match up okay against them, but you're almost always at the advantage here. Coincidentally neither breaks and all units cause fear!
Upper tier
Dark Elves
High Elves
I think these two separate themselves from the next tier due to their flexibility, exploitable assets and leadership. Both can deal with Psychology well.
Middle tier
Warriors of Chaos
Empire (can be higher than WoC depending on how much of an asshole you are)
Dwarves
Lizardmen
Skaven (SAD)
Wood Elves (unless you whore Treemen)
Bretonnians (unless you whore Peg. Knights)
Most of these aren't really in order, although I do believe WoC are that high and Brets are that low. I'm not sure about new Lizardmen yet, but outside of the Saurus I'm just not horribly afraid of anything. Dwarves are good when they use their gunlines responsibly, but when does that happen? Skaven SAD is almost the literal definition of hit-or-miss, so it's hard to rank it up there, especially with leadership issues and their horrible statlines. Wood Elves, from fighting them a good bit, are great at not letting people get solid victories against them, however I've never seen them really rack up the kills. Brets, outside of flying circus, are just not that scary.
Lower Tier
Orcs and Goblins
Tomb Kings
Orcs and Goblins just pay too much for what they get most of the time and have to deal with animosity and low leadership. Tomb Kings just pay too much, have a straaaange magic phase and have shit for Magic items.
I'm not sure about new Lizardmen yet, but outside of the Saurus I'm just not horribly afraid of anything.
Old Blood on Carnisaur? Four stegs? Slaan? The Engine?
I think Lizardmen could be really competitive - High Elf competitive, anyway; Cold Blooded is ridiculously good and their core units are fairly costed - it's just that no one's bothered theory-crafting them properly yet because DoC beat everything anyway so who cares?
I think Dark Elves belong up in the first tier with daemons and VC. Technically you can make a dark elf army that sucks, but any competent general that plays dark elves is going to be just as hard to beat as a daemon or VC army.
Lizardmen definitely belong in second tier, along with high elves, empire, and warriors of chaos.
I'm not sure about new Lizardmen yet, but outside of the Saurus I'm just not horribly afraid of anything.
Old Blood on Carnisaur? Four stegs? Slaan? The Engine?
I think Lizardmen could be really competitive - High Elf competitive, anyway; Cold Blooded is ridiculously good and their core units are fairly costed - it's just that no one's bothered theory-crafting them properly yet because DoC beat everything anyway so who cares?
I have underestimated Old Bloods and/or Carnosaurs in every game I've played against them. To my detriment.
They are very, very good.
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AlazullYour body is not a temple, it's an amusement park.Enjoy the ride.Registered Userregular
edited June 2009
They are pretty tough, but at the same time the only thing that keeps them from dying to shooting now is they are no longer a Large Target.
Even still, all I see is another job for my Bolt Thrower when one is fielded. Basically, if it makes it into combat unwounded then my shooting phase is sucking dick.
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User name Alazull on Steam, PSN, Nintenders, Epic, etc.
I think tier lists really go against the spirit of warhammer. There's too many things that are exploitable, and you'll never get anyone to agree on an 'average' army to make comparisons. Match up lists would be more reasonable, at least there's specifics you can bring up that wouldn't be easily answered by "Yeah, but people who do that are douche bags and I don't play against them."
I'm not sure about new Lizardmen yet, but outside of the Saurus I'm just not horribly afraid of anything.
Old Blood on Carnisaur? Four stegs? Slaan? The Engine?
I think Lizardmen could be really competitive - High Elf competitive, anyway; Cold Blooded is ridiculously good and their core units are fairly costed - it's just that no one's bothered theory-crafting them properly yet because DoC beat everything anyway so who cares?
Those are all fantastic things, but I tend to look at armies from the DE point of view, and there's nothing there that I can't deal with using fairly normal (for the army) tactics. I admit I probably would rank them higher if I played another army. Also, maybe it's just me, but the Engine seems almost like more trouble than it's worth. It's a big point sink for something that you don't want to get into combat, but admittedly I've only seen it once.
Oh, question, do Spear Chukkas bounce into other ranks?
Did you mean penetrate ranks? If so, Grimmy is correct.
Dark elves kinda straddle the line between top and 2nd tier, I think. It also depends on the list. If you go with 2 hydras and ASF'ing blackguard, then you're probably swinging your other leg over the fence and hanging with the VC/DoC crowd. Who, by the way, are dicks and not the kind of people you want to hang out with.
Oh, question, do Spear Chukkas bounce into other ranks?
Did you mean penetrate ranks? If so, Grimmy is correct.
Dark elves kinda straddle the line between top and 2nd tier, I think. It also depends on the list. If you go with 2 hydras and ASF'ing blackguard, then you're probably swinging your other leg over the fence and hanging with the VC/DoC crowd. Who, by the way, are dicks and not the kind of people you want to hang out with.
My boyfriend is starting a VC army because he likes the fluff and lore. How much am I going to hate him?
My boyfriend is starting a VC army because he likes the fluff and lore. How much am I going to hate him?
With O&G and Empire? Lots. Depending.
If he goes full-out magic assault like most competitive vampire lists, you probably won't have that much fun playing against him. If he tones it down (no extra magic levels on the vamps, no death star unit, etc) then you'll probably be more or less okay. Call it "strongly dislike" as opposed to "hate".
Take fear-immune and ItP troops whenever possible, and gear up for magic defense.
Grimmy hit it on the head. A lot of it will depend on the list he runs. You will have to make fear checks against basically every damn unit he fields, and if he goes magic heavy those units will quickly be big enough to auto-break you. VC is generally not a good matchup for O&G.
For empire, you fare slightly better, if you have plenty of magic defense. Warrior priests are going to be key.
All of this is mitigated by him not making a cock-in-the-mouth list. Honestly if he felt like playing a magic-spam list where you raise on a single die 15 times a turn, you would be hard pressed to manage a win with empire, and probably unable to do anything but occasionally draw with your O&G.
I'm not sure about new Lizardmen yet, but outside of the Saurus I'm just not horribly afraid of anything.
Old Blood on Carnisaur? Four stegs? Slaan? The Engine?
I think Lizardmen could be really competitive - High Elf competitive, anyway; Cold Blooded is ridiculously good and their core units are fairly costed - it's just that no one's bothered theory-crafting them properly yet because DoC beat everything anyway so who cares?
Those are all fantastic things, but I tend to look at armies from the DE point of view, and there's nothing there that I can't deal with using fairly normal (for the army) tactics. I admit I probably would rank them higher if I played another army. Also, maybe it's just me, but the Engine seems almost like more trouble than it's worth. It's a big point sink for something that you don't want to get into combat, but admittedly I've only seen it once.
The engine is amazing, and I'm perfectly fine throwing it into combat. In the first round nothing is going to be hitting me back after I stomp your front rank with d6+1 S6 impact hits + 3 more stegadon attacks and 5 ninja skink attacks. Not many units that aren't unbreakable will even stick around on the turn this thing charges you.
The scariest things in the lizardmen list are (ranked from scariest to least scary): Terradons, Engine of the Gods, Slann, Skink Chief on Ancient Stegadon with warspear, Oldblood on Carnosaur.
By the way, if I bought the Wizard kit, am I stuck with a Bright Wizard and Celestial Wizard? Can I have my Celestial Wizard be of a different school? Lore of Light looks really good...
Also, Grimmy, when you have a free day me and the boy should come down and play a few games at the store.
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
By the way, if I bought the Wizard kit, am I stuck with a Bright Wizard and Celestial Wizard? Can I have my Celestial Wizard be of a different school? Lore of Light looks really good...
Also, Grimmy, when you have a free day me and the boy should come down and play a few games at the store.
The Empire wizard kit?
Not at all; that kit has an amazing array of bitz in there, sufficient to make at least one wizard of any of the orders. You probably won't be able to make two of the same one though.
My problem is generally that I actually paint 1 dude start to finish. I need to learn to production line.
I've got that problem too. I also don't know when to stop. I'm not good at saying "good enough for tabletop" and saving the effort for the display pieces.
I production line about 50% of my Empire guys - the general base colors. Then I go to them and spend about half an hour to forty five minutes doing the detail on them.
On the plus side, I'm finishing up the last guy for another set of five. Then I'll need 5 more state troops for a full group!
My problem is generally that I actually paint 1 dude start to finish. I need to learn to production line.
I've got that problem too. I also don't know when to stop. I'm not good at saying "good enough for tabletop" and saving the effort for the display pieces.
You 'n me, Grimmy. Like this:
I treat every model like it's a single project and needs to be as good as I can possibly manage before I can stand to have it seen on a table.
Doesn't help that I play Ogres and Cav/Ogre heavy Chaos, and you really can't hide shitty mass produced models in the rank 'n file of a block of infantry.
I'm not sure about new Lizardmen yet, but outside of the Saurus I'm just not horribly afraid of anything.
Old Blood on Carnisaur? Four stegs? Slaan? The Engine?
I think Lizardmen could be really competitive - High Elf competitive, anyway; Cold Blooded is ridiculously good and their core units are fairly costed - it's just that no one's bothered theory-crafting them properly yet because DoC beat everything anyway so who cares?
Those are all fantastic things, but I tend to look at armies from the DE point of view, and there's nothing there that I can't deal with using fairly normal (for the army) tactics. I admit I probably would rank them higher if I played another army. Also, maybe it's just me, but the Engine seems almost like more trouble than it's worth. It's a big point sink for something that you don't want to get into combat, but admittedly I've only seen it once.
The engine is amazing, and I'm perfectly fine throwing it into combat. In the first round nothing is going to be hitting me back after I stomp your front rank with d6+1 S6 impact hits + 3 more stegadon attacks and 5 ninja skink attacks. Not many units that aren't unbreakable will even stick around on the turn this thing charges you.
Generally that's when I'd throw: a BSB, Hydra with either killing blow or the 5+ ward save or a Manticore at it. The one time I faced it I used a Master on Manticore with the Deathpiercer and threw 7 KB attacks at the Priest. The Steg ended up breaking on the LD 6 roll.
The scariest things in the lizardmen list are (ranked from scariest to least scary): Terradons, Engine of the Gods, Slann, Skink Chief on Ancient Stegadon with warspear, Oldblood on Carnosaur.
Terradon Riders are pretty sweet. Maybe it's from playing against the old Slaan, but the new ones are just sorta whatever to me now. It's not that I worry that I can't kill them, it's that I'm not even inclined. They're very good wizards, but they're not quite the rape machines that they were.
Honestly, the thing that amazes me most about Lizardmen are Carnosaurs. Holy shit are those ever worth the points.
I'm not sure about new Lizardmen yet, but outside of the Saurus I'm just not horribly afraid of anything.
Old Blood on Carnisaur? Four stegs? Slaan? The Engine?
I think Lizardmen could be really competitive - High Elf competitive, anyway; Cold Blooded is ridiculously good and their core units are fairly costed - it's just that no one's bothered theory-crafting them properly yet because DoC beat everything anyway so who cares?
Those are all fantastic things, but I tend to look at armies from the DE point of view, and there's nothing there that I can't deal with using fairly normal (for the army) tactics. I admit I probably would rank them higher if I played another army. Also, maybe it's just me, but the Engine seems almost like more trouble than it's worth. It's a big point sink for something that you don't want to get into combat, but admittedly I've only seen it once.
The engine is amazing, and I'm perfectly fine throwing it into combat. In the first round nothing is going to be hitting me back after I stomp your front rank with d6+1 S6 impact hits + 3 more stegadon attacks and 5 ninja skink attacks. Not many units that aren't unbreakable will even stick around on the turn this thing charges you.
Generally that's when I'd throw: a BSB, Hydra with either killing blow or the 5+ ward save or a Manticore at it. The one time I faced it I used a Master on Manticore with the Deathpiercer and threw 7 KB attacks at the Priest. The Steg ended up breaking on the LD 6 roll.
The scariest things in the lizardmen list are (ranked from scariest to least scary): Terradons, Engine of the Gods, Slann, Skink Chief on Ancient Stegadon with warspear, Oldblood on Carnosaur.
Terradon Riders are pretty sweet. Maybe it's from playing against the old Slaan, but the new ones are just sorta whatever to me now. It's not that I worry that I can't kill them, it's that I'm not even inclined. They're very good wizards, but they're not quite the rape machines that they were.
Honestly, the thing that amazes me most about Lizardmen are Carnosaurs. Holy shit are those ever worth the points.
Your points about the priest being fragile are true. Hell, you can pretty much just focus fire a couple turns of RxB shooting at it and he'll eventually fail enough 2+ armor saves. The goal would be to never let an engine get charged by a hydra though. The manticore there isn't much I can do about, but even when the priest is dead you've got a big stompy stegadon to deal with that has an 80% change to stick around when a BSB is near by.
And ya, carnosaurs are scary but very easy to deal with. They're only WS3 T5. Your manticore rider could probably kill him on the charge.
I spray paint chaos black and then pick the models up and do a quick blue wash on the pants, red on the arms, whatever. Then I detail, high light, etc later
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
My boyfriend is starting a VC army because he likes the fluff and lore. How much am I going to hate him?
With O&G and Empire? Lots. Depending.
If he goes full-out magic assault like most competitive vampire lists, you probably won't have that much fun playing against him. If he tones it down (no extra magic levels on the vamps, no death star unit, etc) then you'll probably be more or less okay. Call it "strongly dislike" as opposed to "hate".
Take fear-immune and ItP troops whenever possible, and gear up for magic defense.
Posts
my theory was WAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
would the army be totally neutered without any sort of dispell?
Or Tomb Kings?
Thanks for the game, by the way. It was good to actually drag the bones off the shelf for once.
No, Tomb Kings were competitively fun! They were hard to beat but fair :P
DOC are just like LOL YOU ARE DEAD
Demons of Chaos
Vampire Counts
Both armies can take all comers with a basic list and will annoy the shit out of just about any army. Some armies match up okay against them, but you're almost always at the advantage here. Coincidentally neither breaks and all units cause fear!
Upper tier
Dark Elves
High Elves
I think these two separate themselves from the next tier due to their flexibility, exploitable assets and leadership. Both can deal with Psychology well.
Middle tier
Warriors of Chaos
Empire (can be higher than WoC depending on how much of an asshole you are)
Dwarves
Lizardmen
Skaven (SAD)
Wood Elves (unless you whore Treemen)
Bretonnians (unless you whore Peg. Knights)
Most of these aren't really in order, although I do believe WoC are that high and Brets are that low. I'm not sure about new Lizardmen yet, but outside of the Saurus I'm just not horribly afraid of anything. Dwarves are good when they use their gunlines responsibly, but when does that happen? Skaven SAD is almost the literal definition of hit-or-miss, so it's hard to rank it up there, especially with leadership issues and their horrible statlines. Wood Elves, from fighting them a good bit, are great at not letting people get solid victories against them, however I've never seen them really rack up the kills. Brets, outside of flying circus, are just not that scary.
Lower Tier
Orcs and Goblins
Tomb Kings
Orcs and Goblins just pay too much for what they get most of the time and have to deal with animosity and low leadership. Tomb Kings just pay too much, have a straaaange magic phase and have shit for Magic items.
Ogre Kingdom
Beasts of Chaos
I think these are self-explanatory.
I think Lizardmen could be really competitive - High Elf competitive, anyway; Cold Blooded is ridiculously good and their core units are fairly costed - it's just that no one's bothered theory-crafting them properly yet because DoC beat everything anyway so who cares?
Lizardmen definitely belong in second tier, along with high elves, empire, and warriors of chaos.
I have underestimated Old Bloods and/or Carnosaurs in every game I've played against them. To my detriment.
They are very, very good.
Even still, all I see is another job for my Bolt Thrower when one is fielded. Basically, if it makes it into combat unwounded then my shooting phase is sucking dick.
LoL: BunyipAristocrat
Those are all fantastic things, but I tend to look at armies from the DE point of view, and there's nothing there that I can't deal with using fairly normal (for the army) tactics. I admit I probably would rank them higher if I played another army. Also, maybe it's just me, but the Engine seems almost like more trouble than it's worth. It's a big point sink for something that you don't want to get into combat, but admittedly I've only seen it once.
Oh, question, do Spear Chukkas bounce into other ranks?
Yeah, they'd be treated like other spear-throwing warmachines unless they've got a rule that says otherwise. Which I don't imagine that they'd have.
Did you mean penetrate ranks? If so, Grimmy is correct.
Dark elves kinda straddle the line between top and 2nd tier, I think. It also depends on the list. If you go with 2 hydras and ASF'ing blackguard, then you're probably swinging your other leg over the fence and hanging with the VC/DoC crowd. Who, by the way, are dicks and not the kind of people you want to hang out with.
My boyfriend is starting a VC army because he likes the fluff and lore. How much am I going to hate him?
With O&G and Empire? Lots. Depending.
If he goes full-out magic assault like most competitive vampire lists, you probably won't have that much fun playing against him. If he tones it down (no extra magic levels on the vamps, no death star unit, etc) then you'll probably be more or less okay. Call it "strongly dislike" as opposed to "hate".
Take fear-immune and ItP troops whenever possible, and gear up for magic defense.
For empire, you fare slightly better, if you have plenty of magic defense. Warrior priests are going to be key.
All of this is mitigated by him not making a cock-in-the-mouth list. Honestly if he felt like playing a magic-spam list where you raise on a single die 15 times a turn, you would be hard pressed to manage a win with empire, and probably unable to do anything but occasionally draw with your O&G.
The engine is amazing, and I'm perfectly fine throwing it into combat. In the first round nothing is going to be hitting me back after I stomp your front rank with d6+1 S6 impact hits + 3 more stegadon attacks and 5 ninja skink attacks. Not many units that aren't unbreakable will even stick around on the turn this thing charges you.
The scariest things in the lizardmen list are (ranked from scariest to least scary): Terradons, Engine of the Gods, Slann, Skink Chief on Ancient Stegadon with warspear, Oldblood on Carnosaur.
It's also a good opportunity to try out the Hochland Long Rifle/Gold Wizard thing for vampire sniping.
Also, Grimmy, when you have a free day me and the boy should come down and play a few games at the store.
Not at all; that kit has an amazing array of bitz in there, sufficient to make at least one wizard of any of the orders. You probably won't be able to make two of the same one though.
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
-Paint 15 state troops (5 done)
-Finish Steam Tank
-Start Pistolliers
-basecoat 10 handgunners
I call it a productive day if I can paint one dude start to finish.
I've got that problem too. I also don't know when to stop. I'm not good at saying "good enough for tabletop" and saving the effort for the display pieces.
On the plus side, I'm finishing up the last guy for another set of five. Then I'll need 5 more state troops for a full group!
You 'n me, Grimmy. Like this:
I treat every model like it's a single project and needs to be as good as I can possibly manage before I can stand to have it seen on a table.
Doesn't help that I play Ogres and Cav/Ogre heavy Chaos, and you really can't hide shitty mass produced models in the rank 'n file of a block of infantry.
Generally that's when I'd throw: a BSB, Hydra with either killing blow or the 5+ ward save or a Manticore at it. The one time I faced it I used a Master on Manticore with the Deathpiercer and threw 7 KB attacks at the Priest. The Steg ended up breaking on the LD 6 roll.
Terradon Riders are pretty sweet. Maybe it's from playing against the old Slaan, but the new ones are just sorta whatever to me now. It's not that I worry that I can't kill them, it's that I'm not even inclined. They're very good wizards, but they're not quite the rape machines that they were.
Honestly, the thing that amazes me most about Lizardmen are Carnosaurs. Holy shit are those ever worth the points.
-10/15 State Troops done
-Pistolier horses about 60% done
-no work on steam tank
-two handgunners basecoated
Your points about the priest being fragile are true. Hell, you can pretty much just focus fire a couple turns of RxB shooting at it and he'll eventually fail enough 2+ armor saves. The goal would be to never let an engine get charged by a hydra though. The manticore there isn't much I can do about, but even when the priest is dead you've got a big stompy stegadon to deal with that has an 80% change to stick around when a BSB is near by.
And ya, carnosaurs are scary but very easy to deal with. They're only WS3 T5. Your manticore rider could probably kill him on the charge.
I spray paint chaos black and then pick the models up and do a quick blue wash on the pants, red on the arms, whatever. Then I detail, high light, etc later
Basecoat != Priming?