My boyfriend is starting a VC army because he likes the fluff and lore. How much am I going to hate him?
With O&G and Empire? Lots. Depending.
If he goes full-out magic assault like most competitive vampire lists, you probably won't have that much fun playing against him. If he tones it down (no extra magic levels on the vamps, no death star unit, etc) then you'll probably be more or less okay. Call it "strongly dislike" as opposed to "hate".
Take fear-immune and ItP troops whenever possible, and gear up for magic defense.
What do you mean by Death Star unit?
EDIT: How to hit Submit before you type anything, Grimmy. Smooooth.
Anyhow, a Death Star is a colloquialism for a big unkillable uber unit of doom. Usually it'll have a character or two in it, and comprise a large percentage of the player's points.
In the VC's specific case, a death star is usually a large unit of Grave Guard (with great weapons). In the unit will be a BSB carrying the Drakenhoff banner (gives them regeneration). Walking a few inches behind the GG will be a vampire with the Helm of Commandment, buffing the GG's weapon skill. It's a giant pain in the butt, unless you're fire-heavy or have a good way to kill characters quickly.
EDIT 2: Or you can run around avoiding it all game. Unless the person your playing against does the same trick, but with Blood Knights instead of Guard. Then you just hope that you've got a lot of sacrificial units with which to bait frenzied charges.
By the way, if I bought the Wizard kit, am I stuck with a Bright Wizard and Celestial Wizard? Can I have my Celestial Wizard be of a different school? Lore of Light looks really good...
TON of different options in that kit...same with the general kit. REALLY wish that VC had something similar.
Wow, I just checked the leadership on all the VC units.. it's horrible. I want to try out an oldblood running rampant with the blade of realities (take LD test or die with absolutely no saves) and a carnosaur pendant (frenzy after first unsaved wound).
Eterenal on
0
Options
AlazullYour body is not a temple, it's an amusement park.Enjoy the ride.Registered Userregular
edited June 2009
I thought a Death Star unit was one that was nigh unkillable except if you threw a bunch of stuff at it or found it's one weakness...which was usually so convoluted you could never count on it happening regularly.
@Eternal: Yeah, it doesn't have to be high because they never really take Leadership tests anyway. That's why Harry the Hammer's special rule against undead is kind of broken. He actually causes them to make fear tests, and take break tests at the end of combats they lose if I'm not mistaken.
Alazull on
User name Alazull on Steam, PSN, Nintenders, Epic, etc.
My boyfriend is starting a VC army because he likes the fluff and lore. How much am I going to hate him?
With O&G and Empire? Lots. Depending.
If he goes full-out magic assault like most competitive vampire lists, you probably won't have that much fun playing against him. If he tones it down (no extra magic levels on the vamps, no death star unit, etc) then you'll probably be more or less okay. Call it "strongly dislike" as opposed to "hate".
Take fear-immune and ItP troops whenever possible, and gear up for magic defense.
What do you mean by Death Star unit?
EDIT: How to hit Submit before you type anything, Grimmy. Smooooth.
Anyhow, a Death Star is a colloquialism for a big unkillable uber unit of doom. Usually it'll have a character or two in it, and comprise a large percentage of the player's points.
In the VC's specific case, a death star is usually a large unit of Grave Guard (with great weapons). In the unit will be a BSB carrying the Drakenhoff banner (gives them regeneration). Walking a few inches behind the GG will be a vampire with the Helm of Commandment, buffing the GG's weapon skill. It's a giant pain in the butt, unless you're fire-heavy or have a good way to kill characters quickly.
EDIT 2: Or you can run around avoiding it all game. Unless the person your playing against does the same trick, but with Blood Knights instead of Guard. Then you just hope that you've got a lot of sacrificial units with which to bait frenzied charges.
You also have the VC doggy deathstar, which is hilarious. A huge unit of wolves with 3-4 characters in it.
Wow, I just checked the leadership on all the VC units.. it's horrible. I want to try out an oldblood running rampant with the blade of realities (take LD test or die with absolutely no saves) and a carnosaur pendant (frenzy after first unsaved wound).
Yes, yes you should. The same Lizard player I tried out against played VC and just tore through a Vhargulf, a Black Coach and a unit of Black Knights. It was amazing.
Yeah, but thats not how the blade of realities works. You make a leadership test when you're hit by it. If you fail you die. If you succeed you can still be wounded as normal. Undead have notoriously rancid leadership, so they tend to fail the ld check a lot. You also don't get to use the general's leadership or anything. It goes off the base leadership of the model struck, no modifiers or substitutes allowed.
I'm not sure about new Lizardmen yet, but outside of the Saurus I'm just not horribly afraid of anything.
Old Blood on Carnisaur? Four stegs? Slaan? The Engine?
I think Lizardmen could be really competitive - High Elf competitive, anyway; Cold Blooded is ridiculously good and their core units are fairly costed - it's just that no one's bothered theory-crafting them properly yet because DoC beat everything anyway so who cares?
Those are all fantastic things, but I tend to look at armies from the DE point of view, and there's nothing there that I can't deal with using fairly normal (for the army) tactics. I admit I probably would rank them higher if I played another army. Also, maybe it's just me, but the Engine seems almost like more trouble than it's worth. It's a big point sink for something that you don't want to get into combat, but admittedly I've only seen it once.
The engine is amazing, and I'm perfectly fine throwing it into combat. In the first round nothing is going to be hitting me back after I stomp your front rank with d6+1 S6 impact hits + 3 more stegadon attacks and 5 ninja skink attacks. Not many units that aren't unbreakable will even stick around on the turn this thing charges you.
Generally that's when I'd throw: a BSB, Hydra with either killing blow or the 5+ ward save or a Manticore at it. The one time I faced it I used a Master on Manticore with the Deathpiercer and threw 7 KB attacks at the Priest. The Steg ended up breaking on the LD 6 roll.
The scariest things in the lizardmen list are (ranked from scariest to least scary): Terradons, Engine of the Gods, Slann, Skink Chief on Ancient Stegadon with warspear, Oldblood on Carnosaur.
Terradon Riders are pretty sweet. Maybe it's from playing against the old Slaan, but the new ones are just sorta whatever to me now. It's not that I worry that I can't kill them, it's that I'm not even inclined. They're very good wizards, but they're not quite the rape machines that they were.
Honestly, the thing that amazes me most about Lizardmen are Carnosaurs. Holy shit are those ever worth the points.
Your points about the priest being fragile are true. Hell, you can pretty much just focus fire a couple turns of RxB shooting at it and he'll eventually fail enough 2+ armor saves. The goal would be to never let an engine get charged by a hydra though. The manticore there isn't much I can do about, but even when the priest is dead you've got a big stompy stegadon to deal with that has an 80% change to stick around when a BSB is near by.
And ya, carnosaurs are scary but very easy to deal with. They're only WS3 T5. Your manticore rider could probably kill him on the charge.
Just to go back to this, the Carnosaur might only have T5 and AS4, but it has 5 fucking wounds. That is more than a Hydra or Manticore.
I am making my Lizardmen Army now, I'll post it later for critiques, but which do you guys think would be better, giving Blade of Realities to my Oldblood on a Carnosaur or to a Scar Veteran so that I don't have all my badass eggs in one basket.
I'm not sure about new Lizardmen yet, but outside of the Saurus I'm just not horribly afraid of anything.
Old Blood on Carnisaur? Four stegs? Slaan? The Engine?
I think Lizardmen could be really competitive - High Elf competitive, anyway; Cold Blooded is ridiculously good and their core units are fairly costed - it's just that no one's bothered theory-crafting them properly yet because DoC beat everything anyway so who cares?
Those are all fantastic things, but I tend to look at armies from the DE point of view, and there's nothing there that I can't deal with using fairly normal (for the army) tactics. I admit I probably would rank them higher if I played another army. Also, maybe it's just me, but the Engine seems almost like more trouble than it's worth. It's a big point sink for something that you don't want to get into combat, but admittedly I've only seen it once.
The engine is amazing, and I'm perfectly fine throwing it into combat. In the first round nothing is going to be hitting me back after I stomp your front rank with d6+1 S6 impact hits + 3 more stegadon attacks and 5 ninja skink attacks. Not many units that aren't unbreakable will even stick around on the turn this thing charges you.
Generally that's when I'd throw: a BSB, Hydra with either killing blow or the 5+ ward save or a Manticore at it. The one time I faced it I used a Master on Manticore with the Deathpiercer and threw 7 KB attacks at the Priest. The Steg ended up breaking on the LD 6 roll.
The scariest things in the lizardmen list are (ranked from scariest to least scary): Terradons, Engine of the Gods, Slann, Skink Chief on Ancient Stegadon with warspear, Oldblood on Carnosaur.
Terradon Riders are pretty sweet. Maybe it's from playing against the old Slaan, but the new ones are just sorta whatever to me now. It's not that I worry that I can't kill them, it's that I'm not even inclined. They're very good wizards, but they're not quite the rape machines that they were.
Honestly, the thing that amazes me most about Lizardmen are Carnosaurs. Holy shit are those ever worth the points.
Your points about the priest being fragile are true. Hell, you can pretty much just focus fire a couple turns of RxB shooting at it and he'll eventually fail enough 2+ armor saves. The goal would be to never let an engine get charged by a hydra though. The manticore there isn't much I can do about, but even when the priest is dead you've got a big stompy stegadon to deal with that has an 80% change to stick around when a BSB is near by.
And ya, carnosaurs are scary but very easy to deal with. They're only WS3 T5. Your manticore rider could probably kill him on the charge.
Just to go back to this, the Carnosaur might only have T5 and AS4, but it has 5 fucking wounds. That is more than a Hydra or Manticore.
I'm not sure about new Lizardmen yet, but outside of the Saurus I'm just not horribly afraid of anything.
Old Blood on Carnisaur? Four stegs? Slaan? The Engine?
I think Lizardmen could be really competitive - High Elf competitive, anyway; Cold Blooded is ridiculously good and their core units are fairly costed - it's just that no one's bothered theory-crafting them properly yet because DoC beat everything anyway so who cares?
Those are all fantastic things, but I tend to look at armies from the DE point of view, and there's nothing there that I can't deal with using fairly normal (for the army) tactics. I admit I probably would rank them higher if I played another army. Also, maybe it's just me, but the Engine seems almost like more trouble than it's worth. It's a big point sink for something that you don't want to get into combat, but admittedly I've only seen it once.
The engine is amazing, and I'm perfectly fine throwing it into combat. In the first round nothing is going to be hitting me back after I stomp your front rank with d6+1 S6 impact hits + 3 more stegadon attacks and 5 ninja skink attacks. Not many units that aren't unbreakable will even stick around on the turn this thing charges you.
Generally that's when I'd throw: a BSB, Hydra with either killing blow or the 5+ ward save or a Manticore at it. The one time I faced it I used a Master on Manticore with the Deathpiercer and threw 7 KB attacks at the Priest. The Steg ended up breaking on the LD 6 roll.
The scariest things in the lizardmen list are (ranked from scariest to least scary): Terradons, Engine of the Gods, Slann, Skink Chief on Ancient Stegadon with warspear, Oldblood on Carnosaur.
Terradon Riders are pretty sweet. Maybe it's from playing against the old Slaan, but the new ones are just sorta whatever to me now. It's not that I worry that I can't kill them, it's that I'm not even inclined. They're very good wizards, but they're not quite the rape machines that they were.
Honestly, the thing that amazes me most about Lizardmen are Carnosaurs. Holy shit are those ever worth the points.
Your points about the priest being fragile are true. Hell, you can pretty much just focus fire a couple turns of RxB shooting at it and he'll eventually fail enough 2+ armor saves. The goal would be to never let an engine get charged by a hydra though. The manticore there isn't much I can do about, but even when the priest is dead you've got a big stompy stegadon to deal with that has an 80% change to stick around when a BSB is near by.
And ya, carnosaurs are scary but very easy to deal with. They're only WS3 T5. Your manticore rider could probably kill him on the charge.
Just to go back to this, the Carnosaur might only have T5 and AS4, but it has 5 fucking wounds. That is more than a Hydra or Manticore.
In fairness cannons don't care
This is precisely why I miss my Empire army. That and the Lector on the Altar with the Speculum, Pip.
And double Steam Tanks.
And Karl Franz on a Dragon with the Ghal Maraz.
I only used one Steam Tank.
A duck! on
0
Options
PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
I would never have the patience to deal with the models (despite how good they look - pricey all-metal army is not for me) but in theory the 6th ed Dogs of War list is downright fearsome for just that reason.
You have pikemen (fight in 4 ranks bitches) and cheap cannons galore.
So, on a lark I looked at a friend's 6th Edition Empire book, and they had some good stuff. One thing that really stood out was Balthasar Gelt, what a badass. He cost 50 points more than the current model, but he could forgo his shitty ranged attack to heal a wound to himself or his pegasus, and his staff was 100 time better. Instead of adding +2 to his casts and ignoring the first miscast (which is still nice), he could take any one die thrown and increase it by one. So he'd need three 1s to miscast, and just a 5 and 6 to get irresistible force. I'd take that for 450.
A duck! on
0
Options
IanatorGaze upon my works, ye mightyand facepalm.Registered Userregular
edited June 2009
Okay, I'm going to be gaming some more this coming weekend, and I've just prepared a 1000pt list to get my basics down...
Orcs and Goblins, 995pts
Hero(G): Black Orc Big Boss
Black Orc Big Boss w/ heavy armor, shield, Martog's Best Basha, Dispel Scroll
Hero: Goblin Shaman
Lv2 Goblin Shaman w/ Wolf mount, Staff of Buduumm
Core: Orc Boyz
24 Boyz w/ moar choppaz, full command
Core: Orc Boyz
24 Boyz w/ shields, full command
Core: Spider Riders
5 Spider Riders w/ shortbows
Special: Goblin Spear Chukkas
2 Spear Chukkas
Special: Black Orcs
15 Black Orcs w/ shields
I'm still extremely new to this, but I could use some opinions: is this a viable list for a small battle?
Ianator on
Twitch | Blizzard: Ianator#1479 | 3DS: Ianator - 1779 2336 5317 | FFXIV: Iana Ateliere (NA Sarg) Backlog Challenge List
I dont know if removing the full command is worth savage Orcs, I know you could screen them with the spider riders to up their survivability, but I guess ive just had disasterous results with them. Its not a bad last , give er a shot and see how the list plays for you.
Draeven on
Morskitter wrote "Spikes, choppas, tentacles, magic? Can't hold a candle to Sergeant Pimp here."
I think savage orcs are fearsome but that's mainly because I've only played them with TK. A skeleton block being charged by savage orcs w/ double choppas is just !!!.
Drop a boy from each unit of standard boyz, since your characters joining them will each take up 2 spots in the unit - you'll only need units of 23 to make 5 ranks. I'd try to get your Big Boss mounted on a boar.
Pip's idea with the savage boar boys is honestly not bad.
Another option would be to get a big block of 30 or 40 night goblins with fanatics to operate as a tarpit. An extra group of 5 spider riders (or wolf riders) might not be a bad idea either.
Just to go back to this, the Carnosaur might only have T5 and AS4, but it has 5 fucking wounds. That is more than a Hydra or Manticore.
A hydra has 5 wounds, S5, T5, 7A (!) with hatred, and WS4. Hydra wins. On the charge the hydra will hit do around 3 wounds to the carnosaur and the carnosaur will hit back for about 2 wounds after regen and counting the d3 wounds. Next turn the Hydra will strike first and kill the carnosaur.
Granted that totally ignores the oldblood on top, but carnosaurs just aren't as OTT the rest of the monstrous mounts out there. They're amazing offensive power is balanced by the fact that most things can wound and kill them, with their low WS and armor save. Coupled with the fact that they're only M7 and that means most big nasties (be they fliers or just faster models) will get the charge and kill them.
Wow, that was an epic blank on my part with the Hydra's wounds. One element in the Carnosaur's favor, though, is that they don't count. They don't use any slot to put them in, while most 200+ point monstrous mounts take a hero slot away (or maybe they do and I missed it). Well, that and S7 with expanding wounds. I would put the thing on par or ahead of a Manticore (which is the same cost), since it's actually got better defense, better attacking power but is slower.
Every army needs to be given a new magic item: Hydra-b-Gone. Costs 25 points. Allows the bearer to ignore all regeneration, ward and armour saves as long as their opponent has exactly seven attacks.
Then they can give Hydras a new option: Lose 1 attack, costs 75 points.
Or they could just issue an erratum for the hydra to the effect that it's Attack value is also bound to its wounds, as in A==2+remaining wounds.
Man, Eterenal just reminted me that Hydras are fucking bullshit.
And he didn't even mention the 6 WS4 S3 AP attacks with Hatred from the Beastmasters!
Well I left out the oldblood too, who would finish the hydra and chase down the Beastmasters.
The thing about carny vs. hydra is that it's really dependant on the to hit rolls, as in if I roll really well and get 3-4 hits that may be a dead hydra right there, as I'm at 2+ to wound and do d3 wounds after regen.
I'm not saying carnosaurs are the suck, I think they're very balanced. Just not the scariest thing in the list. If I didn't give a crap about the fluff or flavor of the army, I'd trade the carny in for a manticore any day because flying terror causers are just that good.
Lots of armies have total bullshit, though. The first time I fought an Empire list with two Steam Tanks I was lucky to pull off a draw, as they racked up a Lord with Axe (235 points), a block of Black Guard (240-something more) and a Hydra.
Even better was the first time I fought a Treeman at 1000 points, where it annihilated my army. I experienced a total massacre because I couldn't take it off the board, especially after my Hydra got hit by a spite and lost 3 wounds. There are some armies where if they see a Treeman at that point level there is nothing they can do but die to it as little as possible.
As for the Carnosaur, I wouldn't expect a Hydra to win, as it's cheaper than the mount, let alone the pair. An Old-Blood on a Carnosaur with no equipment of magic items is a scant 5 points cheaper than two
Hydras. There's a battle I'd like to see.
EDIT - Worth noting, on average a Carnosaur will deal 1.67 wounds to a Hydra per round. On average, 1/2 attacks will hit, 5/6th will wound, no armor save, 1/2 will get by Regen and the remaining will double. They have a .208 chance to wound per attack. The Hydra/Beastmaster combo will put back about 3 on the first round, and around 2.4 after Hatred goes away.
Posts
EDIT: How to hit Submit before you type anything, Grimmy. Smooooth.
Anyhow, a Death Star is a colloquialism for a big unkillable uber unit of doom. Usually it'll have a character or two in it, and comprise a large percentage of the player's points.
In the VC's specific case, a death star is usually a large unit of Grave Guard (with great weapons). In the unit will be a BSB carrying the Drakenhoff banner (gives them regeneration). Walking a few inches behind the GG will be a vampire with the Helm of Commandment, buffing the GG's weapon skill. It's a giant pain in the butt, unless you're fire-heavy or have a good way to kill characters quickly.
EDIT 2: Or you can run around avoiding it all game. Unless the person your playing against does the same trick, but with Blood Knights instead of Guard. Then you just hope that you've got a lot of sacrificial units with which to bait frenzied charges.
TON of different options in that kit...same with the general kit. REALLY wish that VC had something similar.
@Eternal: Yeah, it doesn't have to be high because they never really take Leadership tests anyway. That's why Harry the Hammer's special rule against undead is kind of broken. He actually causes them to make fear tests, and take break tests at the end of combats they lose if I'm not mistaken.
You also have the VC doggy deathstar, which is hilarious. A huge unit of wolves with 3-4 characters in it.
Yes, yes you should. The same Lizard player I tried out against played VC and just tore through a Vhargulf, a Black Coach and a unit of Black Knights. It was amazing.
I = Retarded
She said basecoat and for some reason I just made the connection to primer.
If that's where you were going with this.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1450019_Harry_the_Hammer_Rules_and_Background.pdf
Just to go back to this, the Carnosaur might only have T5 and AS4, but it has 5 fucking wounds. That is more than a Hydra or Manticore.
In fairness cannons don't care
This is precisely why I miss my Empire army. That and the Lector on the Altar with the Speculum, Pip.
And double Steam Tanks.
And Karl Franz on a Dragon with the Ghal Maraz.
Two blocks of 10 Handgunners with 5 Handgunner detachments just because!
I would never have the patience to deal with the models (despite how good they look - pricey all-metal army is not for me) but in theory the 6th ed Dogs of War list is downright fearsome for just that reason.
You have pikemen (fight in 4 ranks bitches) and cheap cannons galore.
Hero(G): Black Orc Big Boss
Black Orc Big Boss w/ heavy armor, shield, Martog's Best Basha, Dispel Scroll
Hero: Goblin Shaman
Lv2 Goblin Shaman w/ Wolf mount, Staff of Buduumm
Core: Orc Boyz
24 Boyz w/ moar choppaz, full command
Core: Orc Boyz
24 Boyz w/ shields, full command
Core: Spider Riders
5 Spider Riders w/ shortbows
Special: Goblin Spear Chukkas
2 Spear Chukkas
Special: Black Orcs
15 Black Orcs w/ shields
I'm still extremely new to this, but I could use some opinions: is this a viable list for a small battle?
Twitch | Blizzard: Ianator#1479 | 3DS: Ianator - 1779 2336 5317 | FFXIV: Iana Ateliere (NA Sarg)
Backlog Challenge List
Hero(G): Black Orc Big Boss
Black Orc Big Boss w/ heavy armor, shield, Martog's Best Basha
Hero: Goblin Shaman
Lv2 Goblin Shaman w/ Wolf mount, Staff of Buduumm
Core: Orc Boyz
24 Boyz w/ moar choppaz, full command
Core: Orc Boyz
24 Boyz w/ shields, full command
Core: Spider Riders
7 Spider Riders w/ shortbows
Special: Goblin Spear Chukkas
2 Spear Chukkas
Special: Black Orcs
15 Black Orcs w/ shields
Anything else?
Twitch | Blizzard: Ianator#1479 | 3DS: Ianator - 1779 2336 5317 | FFXIV: Iana Ateliere (NA Sarg)
Backlog Challenge List
stick the big boss with the blorcs and rank them 5 wide
EDIT: also, nix the standard and champ in the boys units, remove 4 from each
then buy some savage boar boys
nix the big boss and a unit of boyz and take grimgor, and make the blorcs his immortalz
Edit. Ignore this, lord deep
Pip's idea with the savage boar boys is honestly not bad.
A hydra has 5 wounds, S5, T5, 7A (!) with hatred, and WS4. Hydra wins. On the charge the hydra will hit do around 3 wounds to the carnosaur and the carnosaur will hit back for about 2 wounds after regen and counting the d3 wounds. Next turn the Hydra will strike first and kill the carnosaur.
Granted that totally ignores the oldblood on top, but carnosaurs just aren't as OTT the rest of the monstrous mounts out there. They're amazing offensive power is balanced by the fact that most things can wound and kill them, with their low WS and armor save. Coupled with the fact that they're only M7 and that means most big nasties (be they fliers or just faster models) will get the charge and kill them.
And he didn't even mention the 6 WS4 S3 AP attacks with Hatred from the Beastmasters!
Then they can give Hydras a new option: Lose 1 attack, costs 75 points.
Or they could just issue an erratum for the hydra to the effect that it's Attack value is also bound to its wounds, as in A==2+remaining wounds.
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
Well I left out the oldblood too, who would finish the hydra and chase down the Beastmasters.
The thing about carny vs. hydra is that it's really dependant on the to hit rolls, as in if I roll really well and get 3-4 hits that may be a dead hydra right there, as I'm at 2+ to wound and do d3 wounds after regen.
I'm not saying carnosaurs are the suck, I think they're very balanced. Just not the scariest thing in the list. If I didn't give a crap about the fluff or flavor of the army, I'd trade the carny in for a manticore any day because flying terror causers are just that good.
Lots of armies have total bullshit, though. The first time I fought an Empire list with two Steam Tanks I was lucky to pull off a draw, as they racked up a Lord with Axe (235 points), a block of Black Guard (240-something more) and a Hydra.
Even better was the first time I fought a Treeman at 1000 points, where it annihilated my army. I experienced a total massacre because I couldn't take it off the board, especially after my Hydra got hit by a spite and lost 3 wounds. There are some armies where if they see a Treeman at that point level there is nothing they can do but die to it as little as possible.
As for the Carnosaur, I wouldn't expect a Hydra to win, as it's cheaper than the mount, let alone the pair. An Old-Blood on a Carnosaur with no equipment of magic items is a scant 5 points cheaper than two
Hydras. There's a battle I'd like to see.
EDIT - Worth noting, on average a Carnosaur will deal 1.67 wounds to a Hydra per round. On average, 1/2 attacks will hit, 5/6th will wound, no armor save, 1/2 will get by Regen and the remaining will double. They have a .208 chance to wound per attack. The Hydra/Beastmaster combo will put back about 3 on the first round, and around 2.4 after Hatred goes away.