FandyienBut Otto, what about us? Registered Userregular
edited June 2009
Artreus, what you are forgetting is that North Korea is already totally devestated. A decade ago the country was so wracked by famine nearly everyone and their mother starved.
And NK-China relations are strained at best. North Korea disseminates methamphetamine and sex slaves into eastern China. China produces tons and tons of shitty products that make their way into the Korean market at very little profit, since the NK economy is basically ten million people illegallly selling each other rice.
Indeed, I think if the west did go to war with NK, we'd have some hella staunch backing from the Chinese government. North Korea makes them look bad, and doesn't do a lot for the PROC.
Also on a personal note, I both want this to be over and I don't. For a little while now I've been hoping to end up in an embassy position in that region and I've recently been focusing on the Korea's. It is a weird thought to think that your career choice might be wrong because the country you are hoping to help might not be there anymore. I mean I could just shift back to US-Japanese-Chinese relations, because those are going to remain players for quite some time and they are still up and coming. But I think by the time I graduate and get into the field, something big will have happened.
Would your studies be broad enough that you could encompass both?
Flexible enough that you could easily switch over to U-J-C if it came down to it?
If the North Korea thing gets too real, it could eliminate the need for diplomats able to work with North Korea. Anything short of that, though, will increase the demand drastically. Beyond that, the culture doesn't disappear just because it's political status changes, unless you're counting on total genocide both at home and abroad.
FandyienBut Otto, what about us? Registered Userregular
edited June 2009
I just have a WWII esque sensation about war with North Korea. Even the Chomsky within me supports military action. Why aren't we actually fighting the good fight - since we're the good guys - for once?
I just have a WWII esque sensation about war with North Korea. Even the Chomsky within me supports military action. Why aren't we actually fighting the good fight - since we're the good guys - for once?
Srsly
Because Kim Jong Il has the funniest fuckin' haircut
I just have a WWII esque sensation about war with North Korea. Even the Chomsky within me supports military action. Why aren't we actually fighting the good fight - since we're the good guys - for once?
Srsly
Fandy, would you mind if I used to term "benign bloodbath?"
I just have a WWII esque sensation about war with North Korea. Even the Chomsky within me supports military action. Why aren't we actually fighting the good fight - since we're the good guys - for once?
Srsly
Fandy, would you mind if I used to term "benign bloodbath?"
I just have a WWII esque sensation about war with North Korea. Even the Chomsky within me supports military action. Why aren't we actually fighting the good fight - since we're the good guys - for once?
Srsly
Gigantic army, mountainous terrain, massive conventional fire power aimed at friendly civilians. No doubt North Korea would be dismantled right fucking quick, but the cost would be high. Also the cost is humans.
And it's been a good long while since we've seen a successful nation building after a war.
I just have a WWII esque sensation about war with North Korea. Even the Chomsky within me supports military action. Why aren't we actually fighting the good fight - since we're the good guys - for once?
Srsly
Fandy, would you mind if I used to term "benign bloodbath?"
Artreus, what you are forgetting is that North Korea is already totally devestated. A decade ago the country was so wracked by famine nearly everyone and their mother starved.
And NK-China relations are strained at best. North Korea disseminates methamphetamine and sex slaves into eastern China. China produces tons and tons of shitty products that make their way into the Korean market at very little profit, since the NK economy is basically ten million people illegallly selling each other rice.
Indeed, I think if the west did go to war with NK, we'd have some hella staunch backing from the Chinese government. North Korea makes them look bad, and doesn't do a lot for the PROC.
Oh, my entire point was that North Korea is so devastated that if whatever the hell it has going for it collapses, everybody around it will have to pick up the tab, which they have thus far avoided having to pay for. And I'm well aware of the famine, it got so bad the government even let people set up free market farms out in the countryside for a while.
And as far as the NK-China thing, I wasn't saying China would fight on North Korea's side so much as they would do what they have been trying to do for a while and that is absorb North Korea. They have already been teaching that North Korea is actually historically Chinese in the borderland areas for a while now, so something is shaping up in that regard. My concern there was that China would try to get a cut of South Korea under the guise of helping mop up the North's forces. So I'm not saying China would at all come in on North Korea's side in a big fight.
And by devastate North Korea I meant take out it's capability to wage war. It has zero to little capability to wage a prolonged war of any kind, it's danger lies in causing a lot of damage in a short period of time. What I was saying is that right now, we have the power to wipe out their military. But as we have both pointed out, their economy is so close to non-existent at this point that if the house of cards comes tumbling down, everybody in the region is going to have to pick up the check, which would be bad under the best of circumstances, and it even worse in today's economy.
So, I'm saying that while China would not attack us necessarily, they might try pulling some shifty shit I am not entirely comfortable with. They would most definitely contribute arms to the fight, but the end result would be messy as hell.
I need to stress how bad a collapse of the North Korean regime as it stands would be. While something does need to be done, it would be incredibly expensive to rebuild the country or even just take care of all the refugees. While it might be the humanitarian thing to do for the citizens of the North, it would fuck up the economies of the surrounding nation's something Fierce. Even China, with the enormous economy that it has would be hurt pretty badly.
Also fuzz, my main focus has actually been in Japanese culture and history, with some general political science thrown in. The North Korean focus has only been a recent passion of mine and it was something I wanted to start doing more. It would not be very hard to switch back to Japan and China, especially since my language training in Japanese and Chinese have had more success so far.
We'll never again have a war that is almost universally agreed to be necessary to stop the spread of real evil
It's all just shades of gray in this world
The vast majority of wars throughout history were of this sort. It's nothing new.
Even most modern wars were like this. WWII was just such an extreme counterexample that it colors our perception of a just war nearly in the absolute.
Even then, you have shit like the bombing of Dresden that makes you go ":(" again.
The methods were somewhat ambiguous, but the causes were significantly less so. One both fronts, there was a clear aggressor without reasonable cause accompanied by inhumane behavior in the extreme.
Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki play major roles in keeping it away from an absolutely black and white situation, but aren't nearly enough to make it nearly as gray as the norm.
laughingfuzzball on
0
ArtreusI'm a wizardAnd that looks fucked upRegistered Userregular
We'll never again have a war that is almost universally agreed to be necessary to stop the spread of real evil
It's all just shades of gray in this world
The vast majority of wars throughout history were of this sort. It's nothing new.
Even most modern wars were like this. WWII was just such an extreme counterexample that it colors our perception of a just war nearly in the absolute.
Even then, you have shit like the bombing of Dresden that makes you go ":(" again.
The methods were somewhat ambiguous, but the causes were significantly less so. One both fronts, there was a clear aggressor without reasonable cause accompanied by inhumane behavior in the extreme.
Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki play major roles in keeping it away from an absolutely black and white situation, but aren't nearly enough to make it nearly as gray as the norm.
Hiroshima was much, much less grey in my opinion than Dresden and Nagasaki.
We'll never again have a war that is almost universally agreed to be necessary to stop the spread of real evil
It's all just shades of gray in this world
The vast majority of wars throughout history were of this sort. It's nothing new.
Even most modern wars were like this. WWII was just such an extreme counterexample that it colors our perception of a just war nearly in the absolute.
Even then, you have shit like the bombing of Dresden that makes you go ":(" again.
The methods were somewhat ambiguous, but the causes were significantly less so. One both fronts, there was a clear aggressor without reasonable cause accompanied by inhumane behavior in the extreme.
Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki play major roles in keeping it away from an absolutely black and white situation, but aren't nearly enough to make it nearly as gray as the norm.
Hiroshima was much, much less grey in my opinion than Dresden and Nagasaki.
I think they all ended up pretty grey afterwards! Ho ho!!!
and yet now they are one of the most successful modern nations on the planet
clearly the answer is to nuke Africa
You do that and an entire generation of Kenyans are gonna grow up masturbating to comics of fourteen headed lions fucking women who look like 13 year old white girls.
I read an interesting article on Ethiopia years ago that proposed that international aid was perpetuating starvation by easing immediate concerns to the point that it creates an increase in birth rates without providing the infrastructure to support the resulting population.
In short, I'm with Monroe.
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FandyienBut Otto, what about us? Registered Userregular
edited June 2009
In The Man In the High Castle the third reich exterminates all of Africa and makes the remaining negroes slaves
and yet now they are one of the most successful modern nations on the planet
clearly the answer is to nuke Africa
We might wipe out all sorts of nasty diseases in the process.
Of course, we'll end up creating some new nasty bastard that wipes out the human race, but that's just our luck.
Edit: Or maybe Karma for nuking Africa. One of those. Pick.
and yet now they are one of the most successful modern nations on the planet
clearly the answer is to nuke Africa
We might wipe out all sorts of nasty diseases in the process.
Of course, we'll end up creating some new nasty bastard that wipes out the human race, but that's just our luck.
Edit: Or maybe Karma for nuking Africa. One of those. Pick.
Pretty sure the nuclear fallout from nuking the entire continent would be karma enough.
I read an interesting article on Ethiopia years ago that proposed that international aid was perpetuating starvation by easing immediate concerns to the point that it creates an increase in birth rates without providing the infrastructure to support the resulting population.
In short, I'm with Monroe.
This is pretty much it. All of the aid we are sending to Africa is only prolonging the problem since we are doing jack shit to put in place infrastructure for functioning countries. I mean there are other concerns that are preventing that from happening anyway ie: warlords.
edit: there was something else important here that I was going to say, but I forget it.
We'll never again have a war that is almost universally agreed to be necessary to stop the spread of real evil
It's all just shades of gray in this world
The unfortunate thing is that there never really has been. As someone who enjoys studying (fuck that comes off as pretentious but basically I read a lot of books about it, okay) the dubyadubya 2 as a hobby it was never as a black and white as it is remembered in the countries that won. It is however about as close as its gotten to good vs. evil.
Ol' Sparky on
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ArtreusI'm a wizardAnd that looks fucked upRegistered Userregular
We'll never again have a war that is almost universally agreed to be necessary to stop the spread of real evil
It's all just shades of gray in this world
The unfortunate thing is that there never really has been. As someone who enjoys studying (fuck that comes off as pretentious but basically I read a lot of books about it, okay) the dubyadubya 2 as a hobby it was never as a black and white as it is remembered in the countries that won. It is however about as close as its gotten to good vs. evil.
The principles were pretty black and white, the execution, not so much.
I read an interesting article on Ethiopia years ago that proposed that international aid was perpetuating starvation by easing immediate concerns to the point that it creates an increase in birth rates without providing the infrastructure to support the resulting population.
In short, I'm with Monroe.
This is pretty much it. All of the aid we are sending to Africa is only prolonging the problem since we are doing jack shit to put in place infrastructure for functioning countries. I mean there are other concerns that are preventing that from happening anyway ie: warlords.
Exactly.
We'll reduce the population to levels sustainable with current infrastructure, then pull out all aid so that the birth rate remains more in line with the country's ability to sustain growth.
laughingfuzzball on
0
ArtreusI'm a wizardAnd that looks fucked upRegistered Userregular
I read an interesting article on Ethiopia years ago that proposed that international aid was perpetuating starvation by easing immediate concerns to the point that it creates an increase in birth rates without providing the infrastructure to support the resulting population.
In short, I'm with Monroe.
This is pretty much it. All of the aid we are sending to Africa is only prolonging the problem since we are doing jack shit to put in place infrastructure for functioning countries. I mean there are other concerns that are preventing that from happening anyway ie: warlords.
Exactly.
We'll reduce the population to levels sustainable with current infrastructure, then pull out all aid so that the birth rate remains more in line with the country's ability to sustain growth.
Er. I was agreeing with the assessment of the problem, not the solution. Although I'm pretty sure we are all joking here I am still uncomfortable with "olol nuke Africa"
I read an interesting article on Ethiopia years ago that proposed that international aid was perpetuating starvation by easing immediate concerns to the point that it creates an increase in birth rates without providing the infrastructure to support the resulting population.
In short, I'm with Monroe.
This is pretty much it. All of the aid we are sending to Africa is only prolonging the problem since we are doing jack shit to put in place infrastructure for functioning countries. I mean there are other concerns that are preventing that from happening anyway ie: warlords.
Exactly.
We'll reduce the population to levels sustainable with current infrastructure, then pull out all aid so that the birth rate remains more in line with the country's ability to sustain growth.
I think we should pull out the aid before we do the population reduction. Just out of courtesy...
Posts
And NK-China relations are strained at best. North Korea disseminates methamphetamine and sex slaves into eastern China. China produces tons and tons of shitty products that make their way into the Korean market at very little profit, since the NK economy is basically ten million people illegallly selling each other rice.
Indeed, I think if the west did go to war with NK, we'd have some hella staunch backing from the Chinese government. North Korea makes them look bad, and doesn't do a lot for the PROC.
Would your studies be broad enough that you could encompass both?
Flexible enough that you could easily switch over to U-J-C if it came down to it?
If the North Korea thing gets too real, it could eliminate the need for diplomats able to work with North Korea. Anything short of that, though, will increase the demand drastically. Beyond that, the culture doesn't disappear just because it's political status changes, unless you're counting on total genocide both at home and abroad.
Wasn't serious!
Srsly
Because Kim Jong Il has the funniest fuckin' haircut
Oh my god
There are no bad guys
We'll never again have a war that is almost universally agreed to be necessary to stop the spread of real evil
It's all just shades of gray in this world
No
Gigantic army, mountainous terrain, massive conventional fire power aimed at friendly civilians. No doubt North Korea would be dismantled right fucking quick, but the cost would be high. Also the cost is humans.
And it's been a good long while since we've seen a successful nation building after a war.
The vast majority of wars throughout history were of this sort. It's nothing new.
Even most modern wars were like this. WWII was just such an extreme counterexample that it colors our perception of a just war nearly in the absolute.
Oh, my entire point was that North Korea is so devastated that if whatever the hell it has going for it collapses, everybody around it will have to pick up the tab, which they have thus far avoided having to pay for. And I'm well aware of the famine, it got so bad the government even let people set up free market farms out in the countryside for a while.
And as far as the NK-China thing, I wasn't saying China would fight on North Korea's side so much as they would do what they have been trying to do for a while and that is absorb North Korea. They have already been teaching that North Korea is actually historically Chinese in the borderland areas for a while now, so something is shaping up in that regard. My concern there was that China would try to get a cut of South Korea under the guise of helping mop up the North's forces. So I'm not saying China would at all come in on North Korea's side in a big fight.
And by devastate North Korea I meant take out it's capability to wage war. It has zero to little capability to wage a prolonged war of any kind, it's danger lies in causing a lot of damage in a short period of time. What I was saying is that right now, we have the power to wipe out their military. But as we have both pointed out, their economy is so close to non-existent at this point that if the house of cards comes tumbling down, everybody in the region is going to have to pick up the check, which would be bad under the best of circumstances, and it even worse in today's economy.
So, I'm saying that while China would not attack us necessarily, they might try pulling some shifty shit I am not entirely comfortable with. They would most definitely contribute arms to the fight, but the end result would be messy as hell.
I need to stress how bad a collapse of the North Korean regime as it stands would be. While something does need to be done, it would be incredibly expensive to rebuild the country or even just take care of all the refugees. While it might be the humanitarian thing to do for the citizens of the North, it would fuck up the economies of the surrounding nation's something Fierce. Even China, with the enormous economy that it has would be hurt pretty badly.
Also fuzz, my main focus has actually been in Japanese culture and history, with some general political science thrown in. The North Korean focus has only been a recent passion of mine and it was something I wanted to start doing more. It would not be very hard to switch back to Japan and China, especially since my language training in Japanese and Chinese have had more success so far.
Even then, you have shit like the bombing of Dresden that makes you go ":(" again.
The methods were somewhat ambiguous, but the causes were significantly less so. One both fronts, there was a clear aggressor without reasonable cause accompanied by inhumane behavior in the extreme.
Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki play major roles in keeping it away from an absolutely black and white situation, but aren't nearly enough to make it nearly as gray as the norm.
Hiroshima was much, much less grey in my opinion than Dresden and Nagasaki.
I think they all ended up pretty grey afterwards! Ho ho!!!
Too soon? :?
clearly the answer is to nuke Africa
You do that and an entire generation of Kenyans are gonna grow up masturbating to comics of fourteen headed lions fucking women who look like 13 year old white girls.
In short, I'm with Monroe.
We might wipe out all sorts of nasty diseases in the process.
Of course, we'll end up creating some new nasty bastard that wipes out the human race, but that's just our luck.
Edit: Or maybe Karma for nuking Africa. One of those. Pick.
They didn't do a very good job
This is pretty much it. All of the aid we are sending to Africa is only prolonging the problem since we are doing jack shit to put in place infrastructure for functioning countries. I mean there are other concerns that are preventing that from happening anyway ie: warlords.
edit: there was something else important here that I was going to say, but I forget it.
The unfortunate thing is that there never really has been. As someone who enjoys studying (fuck that comes off as pretentious but basically I read a lot of books about it, okay) the dubyadubya 2 as a hobby it was never as a black and white as it is remembered in the countries that won. It is however about as close as its gotten to good vs. evil.
The principles were pretty black and white, the execution, not so much.
Exactly.
We'll reduce the population to levels sustainable with current infrastructure, then pull out all aid so that the birth rate remains more in line with the country's ability to sustain growth.
Er. I was agreeing with the assessment of the problem, not the solution. Although I'm pretty sure we are all joking here I am still uncomfortable with "olol nuke Africa"
I think we should pull out the aid before we do the population reduction. Just out of courtesy...