I prefer NWN2's UI to NWN1's if only for the sole reason that I don't need to somehow manage to fit 50+ spells (normal and metamagic'd), cast-on-use items, and feat icons onto 36 quickslots as a Wizard, which is my most commonly played NWN1/2 class.
He was implying that its better than BG's interface. And while BG's is too large when played at any resolution that existed at the time, its still more usable than either of the NWN interfaces from a functionality standpoint. It requires no hotkeys because everything is right there in plain sight.
Oh, better than BG's? Yeah, if they'd basically ported over BG2's interface to NWN, removed some of the less-used buttons like Talk, and gave a hovering info box detailing the basic stats for an item/spell when you hover over it, I'd have been in love.
korodullin on
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
I was implying that the character build UI is better. As for the main UI, I dunno. NWN can just eat a dick in general, and NWN2's wasn't so bad I thought. Not as good as the Infinity engine one, but there've definitely been far worse UIs in the history of gaming. (Birth of the Federation, anyone?)
Isn't the character creation pretty much the same thing? You go through a series of screens and select your stats, class, and skills?
Oh, better than BG's? Yeah, if they'd basically ported over BG2's interface to NWN, removed some of the less-used buttons like Talk, and gave a hovering info box detailing the basic stats for an item/spell when you hover over it, I'd have been in love.
All this talk of UI is making me want to play Dark Sun again, seeing as how it has the best UI ever. Too bad I fail at making DOSBOX do anything but run, and its basic mode lags just as bad as windows running it.
I was implying that the character build UI is better. As for the main UI, I dunno. NWN can just eat a dick in general, and NWN2's wasn't so bad I thought. Not as good as the Infinity engine one, but there've definitely been far worse UIs in the history of gaming. (Birth of the Federation, anyone?)
Isn't the character creation pretty much the same thing? You go through a series of screens and select your stats, class, and skills?
Well there was actually descriptions of the feats, as opposed to ... uh, I put a star in Longswords. What did that do? Okay now I have two stars. Umm...?
I mean, I'm currently in IWD's chargen, and my elf can be a Mage or a Cleric. But not a Mage/Cleric. But a half-elf can! Why? Who knows? Game sure as hell doesn't tell me.
(Similarly, my Halfling can be a Fighter or a Cleric, but not a Fighter/Cleric. And only Gnomes can be Cleric/Thieves?)
hippofant on
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
Yeah, the 2nd Ed race/class restrictions were arbitrary and intended for game balance with a dash of flavor, but didn't really work.
2e has rather arcane class restrictions based on race. It actually has level restrictions based on race, too, but BG ignores those. It assumes you are familiar with the ruleset, and to be fair, the manual is like a centimeter thick for BG 1 and an inch thick for 2. :rotate:
DisruptorX2 on
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AriviaI Like A ChallengeEarth-1Registered Userregular
The first time I played NWN2, I just sorta jumped right in, and I think I did all right with character generation. There weren't all sorts of crazy ass hidden rules I had to figure out - like dual-classing vs multi-classing. It was a much more streamlined process - that might partially be due to the better UI too.
But I know I missed out on a ton of shit, because I was just picking feats that sounded cool, and the complexity of 4-class characters, prestige classes, and all the prereqs escaped me. Even with more experience now, I still think I'm "missing" some things, because some of the prestige classes seem to be absolutely ass.
When I went a little overboard with character planning, I downloaded this NWN2 Excel character planner, and it really dawned on me how unbelieveably complicated this shit was. The order of my class levels mattered, the order of my feats mattered, the levels on which I spent skill points mattered. The damn file is 27.7 MBs and has 50+ sheets in it.
And the thing is in the end, I'm not really sure how much actual character customization I did. Everybody took 4x levels of Fighter, my meleers all went for Epic Weapon Focus & Epic Weapon Specialization and then either Whirlwind & Strength or Perfect Two-Handed Fighting & Epic Prowess. My casters went Empower, Maximize, Extend, Persistent, Spell Focus, Stats, and ranged characters all go Epic Weapon Focus & Spec & Improved Rapid Shot.
(Though to be fair, I did try NWN1 too. I can't remember how my character came out, because I was too full of rage.)
To be honest, none of that (especially the spreadsheet) is necessary to play NWN2, it's the equivalent of EJ for WoW or a kensai/mage dual class for baldur's gate: the really crazy broken option.
Well there was actually descriptions of the feats, as opposed to ... uh, I put a star in Longswords. What did that do? Okay now I have two stars. Umm...?
I mean, I'm currently in IWD's chargen, and my elf can be a Mage or a Cleric. But not a Mage/Cleric. But a half-elf can! Why? Who knows? Game sure as hell doesn't tell me.
(Similarly, my Halfling can be a Fighter or a Cleric, but not a Fighter/Cleric. And only Gnomes can be Cleric/Thieves?)
In their defense, all of that is described in the manual. And the restrictions descend from 2e's pen and paper system, some of which makes a weird sense, some of which is descended from setting issues, and some of which is just batshit fucking crazy.
Well there was actually descriptions of the feats, as opposed to ... uh, I put a star in Longswords. What did that do? Okay now I have two stars. Umm...?
Eh? It actually tells you pretty thoroughly in the window in the lower-right corner on the skill allocation screen in BG2 what different levels of proficiency do for weapons and styles.
korodullin on
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
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AriviaI Like A ChallengeEarth-1Registered Userregular
Well, from what I've read of the two Players Handbooks for 4e (just skimming borrowed copies, not really poring over them in-depth), it seems like it'd be really, really difficult to translate into something real-time. You have abilities that you can perform at-will each round that you have to manually target each time, stuff that shifts enemies around the battlefield that work fine on a grind-based dungeon map, but not so much with more "vague" distances in a real-time situation, and so forth.
I can only see a 4e game working in a turn-based Gold Box style, personally. With the rumors that Cryptic Studios, who are now owned by Atari, are doing a Neverwinter Nights MMO, which would almost certainly be based on 4e, I guess we'll find out how they plan to implement it eventually.
BG did get dimension door working. Also, anyone who says 3e games have better character creation UIs can go gag on the War domain, fucking hack that is.
Well there was actually descriptions of the feats, as opposed to ... uh, I put a star in Longswords. What did that do? Okay now I have two stars. Umm...?
Eh? It actually tells you pretty thoroughly in the window in the lower-right corner on the skill allocation screen in BG2 what different levels of proficiency do for weapons and styles.
I'm working off IWD right now, since it's what I'm playing, but fair enough. Anyways, I was mostly just commenting on how the 2e games seem to constantly prevent you from doing things you want for obscure reasons, and the 3e just seem to throw a bajillion options at you and detail them for you in depth, but really seems to present excess, relatively meaningless choice.
Actually I just beat IWD, and I was a little giddy on seeing the ending cinematic again, which really caught me by surprise the first time I played it.
hippofant on
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AriviaI Like A ChallengeEarth-1Registered Userregular
edited June 2009
By the way, the chess event in Durlag's Tower is way less fun than Kara. Apparently SCS buffs it big time. Whyyyyyyyy? It's hard as it is.
That's all you get. Here's what you can put points in; this is what you will look like.
Compared to this:
I mean, one of those UIs is CLEARLY better. Neither of them lists Thac0 or saving throw changes though. Nor spell casting ability gained, which I think BG2 did? That was nice. I knew exactly which spell levels to go to in the spellbook rather than paging through all of them.
Out of curiosity, what are the differences between Normal and Core rules for BG2? Neither the manual nor the in-game options menu go into any detail at all about it. I can assume some of the changes based on what Normal does, but are there any others? "Baldur's Gate rules apply" isn't exactly comprehensive.
korodullin on
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
Out of curiosity, what are the differences between Normal and Core rules for BG2? Neither the manual nor the in-game options menu go into any detail at all about it. I can assume some of the changes based on what Normal does, but are there any others? "Baldur's Gate rules apply" isn't exactly comprehensive.
In core rules, you roll for hp when you level, characters can die permanently, you can fail to learn spells, and enemies do full damage.
Pancake on
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AriviaI Like A ChallengeEarth-1Registered Userregular
Does IWD use AD&D 2e standard weapon proficiency rules or BG 2's made up rules? I think it came out before BG 2?
I'm pretty sure that's the Player's Option system that gets used in BG2.
I'm assuming Combat and Tactics is the Option in question.
I think so, I think Skills and Powers just detailed switching that option into CPs from picks.
Edit: In case anyone's wondering what we're going on about, 2e had a revision like 3e did with 3.5, except it was completely optional and only parts of it became customary for the last four or so years of 2e.
Does IWD use AD&D 2e standard weapon proficiency rules or BG 2's made up rules? I think it came out before BG 2?
I'm pretty sure that's the Player's Option system that gets used in BG2.
I'm assuming Combat and Tactics is the Option in question.
I think so, I think Skills and Powers just detailed switching that option into CPs from picks.
Edit: In case anyone's wondering what we're going on about, 2e had a revision like 3e did with 3.5, except it was completely optional and only parts of it became customary for the last four or so years of 2e.
Skills and Powers (I only own that, High-Level and Tome of Magic) was amazing.
Playable mantis-men and psychic powers and rules for making your own classes.
Xagarath on
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AriviaI Like A ChallengeEarth-1Registered Userregular
Does IWD use AD&D 2e standard weapon proficiency rules or BG 2's made up rules? I think it came out before BG 2?
I'm pretty sure that's the Player's Option system that gets used in BG2.
I'm assuming Combat and Tactics is the Option in question.
I think so, I think Skills and Powers just detailed switching that option into CPs from picks.
Edit: In case anyone's wondering what we're going on about, 2e had a revision like 3e did with 3.5, except it was completely optional and only parts of it became customary for the last four or so years of 2e.
Skills and Powers (I only own that, High-Level and Tome of Magic) was amazing.
Playable mantis-men and psychic powers and rules for making your own classes.
Oh Player's Option.
Let us never forget the ability to start off with a deafblind wizard who didn't know or and couldn't cast any spells.
I should have remembered that you can kill a character during creation quite easily with a function called wild talents in the psionics system when we were having that discussion.
High Level Option's section on wizards is hilarious. 'Yes, they're totally overpowered now. Suck it.'
Out of curiosity, what are the differences between Normal and Core rules for BG2? Neither the manual nor the in-game options menu go into any detail at all about it. I can assume some of the changes based on what Normal does, but are there any others? "Baldur's Gate rules apply" isn't exactly comprehensive.
In core rules, you roll for hp when you level, characters can die permanently, you can fail to learn spells, and enemies do full damage.
I'm pretty sure hp gain is maxed even on Core in BG2...?
Out of curiosity, what are the differences between Normal and Core rules for BG2? Neither the manual nor the in-game options menu go into any detail at all about it. I can assume some of the changes based on what Normal does, but are there any others? "Baldur's Gate rules apply" isn't exactly comprehensive.
In core rules, you roll for hp when you level, characters can die permanently, you can fail to learn spells, and enemies do full damage.
I'm pretty sure hp gain is maxed even on Core in BG2...?
Out of curiosity, what are the differences between Normal and Core rules for BG2? Neither the manual nor the in-game options menu go into any detail at all about it. I can assume some of the changes based on what Normal does, but are there any others? "Baldur's Gate rules apply" isn't exactly comprehensive.
In core rules, you roll for hp when you level, characters can die permanently, you can fail to learn spells, and enemies do full damage.
I'm pretty sure hp gain is maxed even on Core in BG2...?
nope, unless you mod it.
Weird, I guess I was changing the difficulty every time, 'cause I had a distinct memory of BG2 not having that annoying feature. Oh well.
Ed321 on
0
AriviaI Like A ChallengeEarth-1Registered Userregular
Out of curiosity, what are the differences between Normal and Core rules for BG2? Neither the manual nor the in-game options menu go into any detail at all about it. I can assume some of the changes based on what Normal does, but are there any others? "Baldur's Gate rules apply" isn't exactly comprehensive.
In core rules, you roll for hp when you level, characters can die permanently, you can fail to learn spells, and enemies do full damage.
I'm pretty sure hp gain is maxed even on Core in BG2...?
nope, unless you mod it.
Weird, I guess I was changing the difficulty every time, 'cause I had a distinct memory of BG2 not having that annoying feature. Oh well.
It's 2e D&D. The slider isn't an on/off button, it's a more/less masochism lever.
Out of curiosity, what are the differences between Normal and Core rules for BG2? Neither the manual nor the in-game options menu go into any detail at all about it. I can assume some of the changes based on what Normal does, but are there any others? "Baldur's Gate rules apply" isn't exactly comprehensive.
In core rules, you roll for hp when you level, characters can die permanently, you can fail to learn spells, and enemies do full damage.
I'm pretty sure hp gain is maxed even on Core in BG2...?
nope, unless you mod it.
Weird, I guess I was changing the difficulty every time, 'cause I had a distinct memory of BG2 not having that annoying feature. Oh well.
It's 2e D&D. The slider isn't an on/off button, it's a more/less masochism lever.
Well I didn't mind things like permenant death too much, since it encouraged roleplaying (unless it happened to a character I liked. Or a girl. Then I'd just reload). One odd thing I liked was petrification - I remember after the Shadow Dungeon fight thing Viconia got turned to stone and I had to trek all the way back to Athkatla to get a reversal scroll. It was like a little miniquest. Don't think it broke my romance, but I was fairly proficient with changing values in the console/shadowkeeper thanks to tutorials so maybe I just reactivated it.
I've been poking around various BG related sites, and I've discovered a few old guides for all you people (like me) that struggle with these games. I don't know how helpful it will be for all you folks out there who can beat Ascension with SCS2 installed using your nose for the keyboard and your teeth for the mouse, but for the rest of us little people, they might come in handy. These are about BG II, and having never played the Icewind Dale games I don't know how applicable they are to them.
I've been poking around various BG related sites, and I've discovered a few old guides for all you people (like me) that struggle with these games. I don't know how helpful it will be for all you folks out there who can beat Ascension with SCS2 installed using your nose for the keyboard and your teeth for the mouse, but for the rest of us little people, they might come in handy. These are about BG II, and having never played the Icewind Dale games I don't know how applicable they are to them.
The second one is a spell guide, which is heavily referenced in the cheese tactics guide as Xyx's Spell Guide: The BG2 Spell Reference
Interesting, I've played the game for years and didn't know half of those tricks. Although I think it's telling that the author repeatedly mentions the tactics mod as cause for writing the guide. It really makes you wodner what the point of making a tactics mod is if people are just going to cheese it.
In BG2 I'm clearing some keep and I've finally cleared out all the rooms except the last basement ones. I open the door to them and I'm greeted by 6 umber hulks. They proceed to confuse my whole party, should I blow my cloudkill wand charge on them or is there some trick I'm missing?
In BG2 I'm clearing some keep and I've finally cleared out all the rooms except the last basement ones. I open the door to them and I'm greeted by 6 umber hulks. They proceed to confuse my whole party, should I blow my cloudkill wand charge on them or is there some trick I'm missing?
Try skeletons and summons and shit to district them. Also their confusion ability isn't guaranteed to work every time. But locking them in with an AoE spell is also fine.
Steam / Xbox Live: WSDX NNID: W-S-D-X 3DS FC: 2637-9461-8549
0
ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
Hey, don't forget Charisma.
Remember: you're pretty much immortal. Most of the time, dying won't hurt you, though you don't want to cheese off the Lady, or the Master of Bones, or get incinerated by Dustmen.
It will, however, hurt someone else in the planes...
Remember: you're pretty much immortal. Most of the time, dying won't hurt you, though you don't want to cheese off the Lady, or the Master of Bones, or get incinerated by Dustmen.
It will, however, hurt someone else in the planes...
What is the best build as far as getting access to dialogue options and memories?
You want a Wisdom of 25 by the end of the game- basically as soon as possible. Intelligence and Charisma should also be high- at least 18, 21 is preferable. Stat increases are handed out like candy in Torment so it's fairly easy to buff them up.
Wisdom is all important. Constitution is also very worthwhile since hit points are retroactively added on, so even a late game Constitution buff can still give you a shit-ton of hit points. Some Dexterity can come in handy.
Basically, be a Mage. It is the most synergistic class with the Nameless One's abilities, and Torment had some of the most badass spells in the Infinity Engine series.
That BG1 writeup mentioned a few pages back is hilarious. One of the best LPs I've read.
I'm somewhat tempted to do a full playthrough of BG1&2 before Dragon's Age drops, but I'm in the middle of NWN2:Mask of the Betrayer then I have Storm of Zehir. Playing NWN2 again after several years, I've been impressed by how much Obsidian optimized the engine and fixed the AI with all the patches. It gives me hope that Alpha Protocol will turn out well eventually, even if it is a buggy mess at release.
Posts
Oh, better than BG's? Yeah, if they'd basically ported over BG2's interface to NWN, removed some of the less-used buttons like Talk, and gave a hovering info box detailing the basic stats for an item/spell when you hover over it, I'd have been in love.
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
Isn't the character creation pretty much the same thing? You go through a series of screens and select your stats, class, and skills?
All this talk of UI is making me want to play Dark Sun again, seeing as how it has the best UI ever. Too bad I fail at making DOSBOX do anything but run, and its basic mode lags just as bad as windows running it.
Well there was actually descriptions of the feats, as opposed to ... uh, I put a star in Longswords. What did that do? Okay now I have two stars. Umm...?
I mean, I'm currently in IWD's chargen, and my elf can be a Mage or a Cleric. But not a Mage/Cleric. But a half-elf can! Why? Who knows? Game sure as hell doesn't tell me.
(Similarly, my Halfling can be a Fighter or a Cleric, but not a Fighter/Cleric. And only Gnomes can be Cleric/Thieves?)
To be honest, none of that (especially the spreadsheet) is necessary to play NWN2, it's the equivalent of EJ for WoW or a kensai/mage dual class for baldur's gate: the really crazy broken option.
In their defense, all of that is described in the manual. And the restrictions descend from 2e's pen and paper system, some of which makes a weird sense, some of which is descended from setting issues, and some of which is just batshit fucking crazy.
Means we would have seen a lot more half-elf bards though.
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
BG did get dimension door working. Also, anyone who says 3e games have better character creation UIs can go gag on the War domain, fucking hack that is.
I'm working off IWD right now, since it's what I'm playing, but fair enough. Anyways, I was mostly just commenting on how the 2e games seem to constantly prevent you from doing things you want for obscure reasons, and the 3e just seem to throw a bajillion options at you and detail them for you in depth, but really seems to present excess, relatively meaningless choice.
Actually I just beat IWD, and I was a little giddy on seeing the ending cinematic again, which really caught me by surprise the first time I played it.
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
That's all you get. Here's what you can put points in; this is what you will look like.
Compared to this:
I mean, one of those UIs is CLEARLY better. Neither of them lists Thac0 or saving throw changes though. Nor spell casting ability gained, which I think BG2 did? That was nice. I knew exactly which spell levels to go to in the spellbook rather than paging through all of them.
It probably uses the same thing BG1 did.
I'm pretty sure that's the Player's Option system that gets used in BG2.
I'm assuming Combat and Tactics is the Option in question.
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
In core rules, you roll for hp when you level, characters can die permanently, you can fail to learn spells, and enemies do full damage.
I think so, I think Skills and Powers just detailed switching that option into CPs from picks.
Edit: In case anyone's wondering what we're going on about, 2e had a revision like 3e did with 3.5, except it was completely optional and only parts of it became customary for the last four or so years of 2e.
Skills and Powers (I only own that, High-Level and Tome of Magic) was amazing.
Playable mantis-men and psychic powers and rules for making your own classes.
Oh Player's Option.
Let us never forget the ability to start off with a deafblind wizard who didn't know or and couldn't cast any spells.
I should have remembered that you can kill a character during creation quite easily with a function called wild talents in the psionics system when we were having that discussion.
High Level Option's section on wizards is hilarious. 'Yes, they're totally overpowered now. Suck it.'
I'm pretty sure hp gain is maxed even on Core in BG2...?
nope, unless you mod it.
Weird, I guess I was changing the difficulty every time, 'cause I had a distinct memory of BG2 not having that annoying feature. Oh well.
It's 2e D&D. The slider isn't an on/off button, it's a more/less masochism lever.
Well I didn't mind things like permenant death too much, since it encouraged roleplaying (unless it happened to a character I liked. Or a girl. Then I'd just reload). One odd thing I liked was petrification - I remember after the Shadow Dungeon fight thing Viconia got turned to stone and I had to trek all the way back to Athkatla to get a reversal scroll. It was like a little miniquest. Don't think it broke my romance, but I was fairly proficient with changing values in the console/shadowkeeper thanks to tutorials so maybe I just reactivated it.
The first one is a guide to cheese tactics in Baldur's Gate II:
The Hero's Guide to a Successful Adventure
The second one is a spell guide, which is heavily referenced in the cheese tactics guide as Xyx's Spell Guide:
The BG2 Spell Reference
Interesting, I've played the game for years and didn't know half of those tricks. Although I think it's telling that the author repeatedly mentions the tactics mod as cause for writing the guide. It really makes you wodner what the point of making a tactics mod is if people are just going to cheese it.
Try skeletons and summons and shit to district them. Also their confusion ability isn't guaranteed to work every time. But locking them in with an AoE spell is also fine.
Yeah, widescreen and higher resolutions make it great:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/05/29/planescape-landscapes/
Apparently that mod in the article is an older version, I found a link to forums for the new one among the comments:
http://www.shsforums.net/index.php?showtopic=37221
Going to reinstall tonight
Forget everything else. Be a mage.
Remember: you're pretty much immortal. Most of the time, dying won't hurt you, though you don't want to cheese off the Lady, or the Master of Bones, or get incinerated by Dustmen.
You want a Wisdom of 25 by the end of the game- basically as soon as possible. Intelligence and Charisma should also be high- at least 18, 21 is preferable. Stat increases are handed out like candy in Torment so it's fairly easy to buff them up.
Wisdom is all important. Constitution is also very worthwhile since hit points are retroactively added on, so even a late game Constitution buff can still give you a shit-ton of hit points. Some Dexterity can come in handy.
Basically, be a Mage. It is the most synergistic class with the Nameless One's abilities, and Torment had some of the most badass spells in the Infinity Engine series.
I'm somewhat tempted to do a full playthrough of BG1&2 before Dragon's Age drops, but I'm in the middle of NWN2:Mask of the Betrayer then I have Storm of Zehir. Playing NWN2 again after several years, I've been impressed by how much Obsidian optimized the engine and fixed the AI with all the patches. It gives me hope that Alpha Protocol will turn out well eventually, even if it is a buggy mess at release.