See, this is where I think your argument falls apart. You could easily level the same exact charge against the United States. We basically gained our territory by committing genocide against the Native Americans. Do you feel that the US should give up its claims to its lands and return them to their rightful owners?
There aren't too many Native Americans left. We could probably do that in part.
Yeah, not to defend the U.S.'s sordid history with the Native Americans, but at least we give them citizenship and full political/economic rights within the United States. Granted, Native Americans deserve more than what they've been given and they aren't an existential threat like the Israelis perceive the Palestinians, but they've definitely got more than the Palestinians could ever hope to get from Israel.
I just want to throw out this terrible factoid: South Africa's apartheid was based primarily on Canada's Indian Act.
How's that for national shame.
A fair amount of Zionist thought directly references Western treatment of indigenous peoples as justification of their treatment of Palestinians. Read The Iron Wall sometime, and be horrified.
Yes, what Israel is doing is horrible. Not unheard of by any means, but horrible. What the U.S. is doing to help support what Israel is doing is a fucking tragedy.
And, do to on-going sacrifice of doing what's right for political expediency, I don't think this will ever change. See, you don't just have to wait for the boomers to die off... the fate of Israel has somehow been tied directly into the fate of Christianity by the fundamentalists... and those fuckers just won't die...
Aside: I loved Michael Chabon's take on this connection in The Yiddish Policeman's Union.
Yes, what Israel is doing is horrible. Not unheard of by any means, but horrible. What the U.S. is doing to help support what Israel is doing is a fucking tragedy.
And, do to on-going sacrifice of doing what's right for political expediency, I don't think this will ever change. See, you don't just have to wait for the boomers to die off... the fate of Israel has somehow been tied directly into the fate of Christianity by the fundamentalists... and those fuckers just won't die...
Aside: I loved Michael Chabon's take on this connection in The Yiddish Policeman's Union.
The death to Israel rhetoric they are always dealing with is bound to generate hatred for the Arab community. The Palestinians have also proven rather "difficult" to negotiate with, and what they do get from Israel often just produces ridiculous demands and the same amount of aggression as before.
Yeah, I know, they have such unreasonable demands, like "food," "water," "sovereignty," and "some land."
Yes, what Israel is doing is horrible. Not unheard of by any means, but horrible. What the U.S. is doing to help support what Israel is doing is a fucking tragedy.
And, do to on-going sacrifice of doing what's right for political expediency, I don't think this will ever change. See, you don't just have to wait for the boomers to die off... the fate of Israel has somehow been tied directly into the fate of Christianity by the fundamentalists... and those fuckers just won't die...
Aside: I loved Michael Chabon's take on this connection in The Yiddish Policeman's Union.
Care to explain?
Book spoilers, obviously
Union takes place in an alternate universe where Jews fleeing the Holocaust were given asylum in Alaska. There was an Israeli state, but it collapsed quickly after being formed. America has also become even more fundamentalist and puritanical than it is today. The Jews are also being forced out of Alaska after living there for sixty years because the public is against it. The current presidential administration believes that the existence of an Israeli state is necessary to precede the End Times and Rapture, so they help sponsor an illegal attack by Jewish extremists to clear out and seize the Holy Land. Its a conspiracy that's at the heart of the entire novel.
The death to Israel rhetoric they are always dealing with is bound to generate hatred for the Arab community. The Palestinians have also proven rather "difficult" to negotiate with, and what they do get from Israel often just produces ridiculous demands and the same amount of aggression as before.
Yeah, I know, they have such unreasonable demands, like "food," "water," "sovereignty," and "some land."
It's fucking ridiculous.
I wonder how the inevitable negotiations with Hamas will go. Unless things change a lot I really can't see any kind of reasonable (for both sides obviously) agreement made as they were pretty much elected on the basis of being the guys who want to fuck Israel as much as possible and similarly netanyahu's government was elected on the basis of being harsher towards the palestinians. I doubt either of these political entities will reach a good agreement because it is in neither of their interests to have populations that are happy and ambivalent towards each other.
The death to Israel rhetoric they are always dealing with is bound to generate hatred for the Arab community. The Palestinians have also proven rather "difficult" to negotiate with, and what they do get from Israel often just produces ridiculous demands and the same amount of aggression as before.
Yeah, I know, they have such unreasonable demands, like "food," "water," "sovereignty," and "some land."
It's fucking ridiculous.
Not to mention the ridiculous entitlement complex that leads to "stop bombing us please"
The death to Israel rhetoric they are always dealing with is bound to generate hatred for the Arab community. The Palestinians have also proven rather "difficult" to negotiate with, and what they do get from Israel often just produces ridiculous demands and the same amount of aggression as before.
Yeah, I know, they have such unreasonable demands, like "food," "water," "sovereignty," and "some land."
It's fucking ridiculous.
Not to mention the ridiculous entitlement complex that leads to "stop bombing us please"
Vicious cycle to be honest. While Hamas are in control Israel will refuse to believe the Palestinian government will do such a thing as disarming and stopping terrorist cells from running. So Israel will refuse to give any such supplies. So Palestine will continue to build up arms. So Israel will bomb them back to the stone age a bit. So Palestine will demand aid. So Israel will demand disarmanent.
Blah blah blah it goes on and on and on until Sharon rises from his coma and declares he's seen God and he wants a nuclear war.
The death to Israel rhetoric they are always dealing with is bound to generate hatred for the Arab community. The Palestinians have also proven rather "difficult" to negotiate with, and what they do get from Israel often just produces ridiculous demands and the same amount of aggression as before.
Yeah, I know, they have such unreasonable demands, like "food," "water," "sovereignty," and "some land."
It's fucking ridiculous.
Not to mention the ridiculous entitlement complex that leads to "stop bombing us please"
Vicious cycle to be honest. While Hamas are in control Israel will refuse to believe the Palestinian government will do such a thing as disarming and stopping terrorist cells from running. So Israel will refuse to give any such supplies. So Palestine will continue to build up arms. So Israel will bomb them back to the stone age a bit. So Palestine will demand aid. So Israel will demand disarmanent.
Blah blah blah it goes on and on and on until Sharon rises from his coma and declares he's seen God and he wants a nuclear war.
No, it's not a vicious cycle. One side is unwilling to acknowledge that their conduct is helping fuel matters.
The death to Israel rhetoric they are always dealing with is bound to generate hatred for the Arab community. The Palestinians have also proven rather "difficult" to negotiate with, and what they do get from Israel often just produces ridiculous demands and the same amount of aggression as before.
Yeah, I know, they have such unreasonable demands, like "food," "water," "sovereignty," and "some land."
It's fucking ridiculous.
Not to mention the ridiculous entitlement complex that leads to "stop bombing us please"
Vicious cycle to be honest. While Hamas are in control Israel will refuse to believe the Palestinian government will do such a thing as disarming and stopping terrorist cells from running. So Israel will refuse to give any such supplies. So Palestine will continue to build up arms. So Israel will bomb them back to the stone age a bit. So Palestine will demand aid. So Israel will demand disarmanent.
Blah blah blah it goes on and on and on until Sharon rises from his coma and declares he's seen God and he wants a nuclear war.
No, it's not a vicious cycle. One side is unwilling to acknowledge that their conduct is helping fuel matters.
Both sides are unwilling to acknowledge their own shitty policies. The goverment of Israel is no better then Hamas on this.
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HachfaceNot the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking ofDammit, Shepard!Registered Userregular
edited June 2009
Can't we just resolve that everyone who posts in this thread is aware that shittiness exists on both sides, and agree to stop making constant appeals to equivalency?
Can't we just resolve that everyone who posts in this thread is aware that shittiness exists on both sides, and agree to stop making constant appeals to equivalency?
Hmm yeah maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle (learned that on South Park, brah).
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This makes me weep.
Aside: I loved Michael Chabon's take on this connection in The Yiddish Policeman's Union.
Care to explain?
It's fucking ridiculous.
I wonder how the inevitable negotiations with Hamas will go. Unless things change a lot I really can't see any kind of reasonable (for both sides obviously) agreement made as they were pretty much elected on the basis of being the guys who want to fuck Israel as much as possible and similarly netanyahu's government was elected on the basis of being harsher towards the palestinians. I doubt either of these political entities will reach a good agreement because it is in neither of their interests to have populations that are happy and ambivalent towards each other.
Not to mention the ridiculous entitlement complex that leads to "stop bombing us please"
Vicious cycle to be honest. While Hamas are in control Israel will refuse to believe the Palestinian government will do such a thing as disarming and stopping terrorist cells from running. So Israel will refuse to give any such supplies. So Palestine will continue to build up arms. So Israel will bomb them back to the stone age a bit. So Palestine will demand aid. So Israel will demand disarmanent.
Blah blah blah it goes on and on and on until Sharon rises from his coma and declares he's seen God and he wants a nuclear war.
No, it's not a vicious cycle. One side is unwilling to acknowledge that their conduct is helping fuel matters.
Yeah Hamas is a bitch like that.
Hmm yeah maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle (learned that on South Park, brah).