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Pickup artists (related to Monday's front-page convo)
Spiffy McBang
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Linky: http://community.feministing.com/2009/08/updated-george-sodini-and-the.html
Right off the bat you might see the site name and say, "Ah christ, they're not going to be neutral at all." And that's true. In fact, I'm not a huge fan of the linked post myself- as I say in the comments there, the points are correct, but it's very negative, unnecessarily so.
But if the back-and-forth between Tycho and Gabe about pickup artists and their methods versus feminine wiles and whatnot got you thinking even a little bit, I encourage you to follow the link and read both the post and the comments. Please try not to jump on the couple of people who appear to overreact- I haven't been going to that site very long and I've still seen several instances where guys jump in and get all defensive when there's no need, and the regulars there are understandably tired of it. Read it over, get a feel for how the members of that site view the issue; it may well be considerably different from what you're used to hearing from others or thinking yourself.
Also, although the George Sodini case is only mentioned in passing (despite it being in the title), think about the size of the leap it takes to go from simply frustrated to murderously so. Think about some of the uberdorks you might know who obsess over finding a girlfriend but just can't figure out how to do it. A lot of them remain perfectly respectful, but some start getting angry at the women because they can't determine how they themselves are failing. And our culture, while enormously less accepting of violence against women than it once was, still often fails to treat it as a serious problem. Sodini was a batshit psycho, no doubt. But this is a case where it's possible to piece together where his frayed logic stemmed from. In those instances, we need to be aware that the same result could strike others, and if we know someone potentially like that, try to help them and steer them away from bitterness.
(If you don't know who George Sodini is, he's the guy that shot several women, killing three, in a fitness club near Pittsburgh. If that doesn't ring a bell, Google it.)
Hopefully this doesn't bomb off the first page in ten minutes. I'll be interested to see what people think, if this goes anywhere.
Right off the bat you might see the site name and say, "Ah christ, they're not going to be neutral at all." And that's true. In fact, I'm not a huge fan of the linked post myself- as I say in the comments there, the points are correct, but it's very negative, unnecessarily so.
But if the back-and-forth between Tycho and Gabe about pickup artists and their methods versus feminine wiles and whatnot got you thinking even a little bit, I encourage you to follow the link and read both the post and the comments. Please try not to jump on the couple of people who appear to overreact- I haven't been going to that site very long and I've still seen several instances where guys jump in and get all defensive when there's no need, and the regulars there are understandably tired of it. Read it over, get a feel for how the members of that site view the issue; it may well be considerably different from what you're used to hearing from others or thinking yourself.
Also, although the George Sodini case is only mentioned in passing (despite it being in the title), think about the size of the leap it takes to go from simply frustrated to murderously so. Think about some of the uberdorks you might know who obsess over finding a girlfriend but just can't figure out how to do it. A lot of them remain perfectly respectful, but some start getting angry at the women because they can't determine how they themselves are failing. And our culture, while enormously less accepting of violence against women than it once was, still often fails to treat it as a serious problem. Sodini was a batshit psycho, no doubt. But this is a case where it's possible to piece together where his frayed logic stemmed from. In those instances, we need to be aware that the same result could strike others, and if we know someone potentially like that, try to help them and steer them away from bitterness.
(If you don't know who George Sodini is, he's the guy that shot several women, killing three, in a fitness club near Pittsburgh. If that doesn't ring a bell, Google it.)
Hopefully this doesn't bomb off the first page in ten minutes. I'll be interested to see what people think, if this goes anywhere.
Spiffy McBang on
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Other than that.....good point, but ooooooooooold. Really, pick up artists and their misogynistic ways, treating women like objects for sex etc.....where's the news? Okay, so one went nuts and killed a bunch of people...the law of large numbers can be blamed for that, I guess. So again, no news.
And really, PUA's preyed on Sodini and continue to prey on guys like him, for nothing more than money. He was different from most victims of their scams in that probably always going to kill someone, but spending years and years taking his money and then convincing him that women owed him sex just because he washed and had a job just compounded the guy's frustrations to the point where this became not only possible, but highly probable.
also, they're dreadfully creepy fellows, the creepy is contagious, and I like my men non-creepy kthnx
While I think that the whole PUA thing is definitely a problem it's not the only problem. Grossly inappropriate behavior toward the opposite sex (esp. re: men toward women) is reinforced in our society and media from day one. The PUA community is just the honest about what it is and what beliefs undergird their worldview. Although they take them to a creepy and disturbing extreme, the ideas that underly their 'philosophy' are hardly uncommon. Sodini would have undoubtedly held these beliefs had he never been exposed to PUA, they just wouldn't have been so definite and explicit.
Seriously disturbing comments. NSFBP (Not Safe for Blood Pressure)
I don't think PUAs are what we should be concerned with when there are tons of men out there you believe THIS crap and haven't come into contact with PUAs but just are that way through possibly cultural means. The man felt he was owed sex and companionship because he was a man and that women really needed to wrap their heads around that. Apparently this thought process has a following, and these "people" are telling others that they shouldn't be surprised if more women get shot for being independent and choosing who they want to be with because they are women and don't really have a say in the matter.
It's a very sad place and if you look at all of the founders and what not the majority of them either broke down or realized just how childish they were and moved on.
It seems like anybody, even the creepiest perv on the bus who puts his hands down his pants every time a college student gets on, should realize what a strange nonsequitur this is. But apparently there are whole swathes of the male population who seem to believe that going up to a bartender, handing him a few dollars and telling him who to give it to gives them instant vaginal access?
I suppose it's just a residual belief in that "good girls are at home = women in public are whores = whores will have sex with you if adequately compensated" (in this case, with about $15 worth of drinks, apparently).
In detail: a goodly percentage of the above are really awful dudes with histories of abuse and massive entitlement issues, but another significant fraction are just kind of clueless, let their relationship slide without realising it, and then got blindsided by their partner leaving
so they go online looking for a little emotional support (because they also don't have many other strong RL ties now that their wife no longer mediates their social life), stumble into the wrong end of the internet, and find themselves being told over and over that they're being screwed over by the evil harpy and that the best cure is revenge, via an extended campaign of lawyer-assisted harassment
of course, half the people posting in that corner of the internet are said horrible dudes, and the rest are lawyers indulging in a new and interesting form of ambulance-chasing. Substitute PUA guys for lawyers, and bada bing
epic clusterfuck
I was reading this book when sitting in my local library and I have to agree the PUA community seems a little sad and messed up.
However, the reason I started to read the book is because although the execution of these guys is wrong they do have a point - one that Gabe made too, meeting girls can be incredibly difficult for guys. Essentially, though most people subscribe to ideas of equality i'd argue that in most situations were strangers meet the onus is on the man to make an initial move. This means that women have the right to say yes or no and not have that impact upon their self esteem.
I know this isn't the absolute iron cast way of things but in general at least men are putting themselves out there and risk emotional discomfort some people grow thickskins and treat women as objects and others retreat from the whole operation.
Though I think the whole PUA thing is a scam I've always wondered about the possibility of running a sexual politics university course...
I think a lot of "us" (socially inept males) have the belief, mistaken or not, that they're worthless at a majority of the things we do, and thus don't deserve any significant relationship with the other sex. Even though objectively I'm probably a "catch" (I'm hard-working, honest, polite, friendly, able to converse fairly well) my hang-ups (I'm clumsy, extremely forgetful, I say the wrong things unintentionally/ get tongue-tied easily, I'm awkward around people when I first meet them) put me in the position where I believe I'm a worthless persona and therefore a worthless boyfriend who doesn't deserve happiness
So, putting all the sexist misogynistic bullshit aside, if PUAs teach dudes to ignore their faults and have enough self-confidence to truly believe that they're hot shit and they have a right to a loving relationship, I'd say they are an objectively good thing
But I dunno
Instead they teach that all women are "bitches" (literally, this is terminology here) and that men are entitled to have sex with them and there are a few simple rules to follow and any woman will jump on their wang.
I would argue that females have a significantly easier time approaching males for the purposes of a relationship than males
I am more or less agreeing with you, just expanding on what its like to be a man.
Let's not get carried away. There are different camps and what not inside of the community. Some are more chauvinistic than others.
You don't have a right to anything. Pretending banging chicks is your inalienable "right" basically denies women the right to chose to say no. you can visibly see guys who take this approach get angry when they are rejected because they feel they're owed sex for doing the right things.
Also PUA philosophy have NOTHING TO DO WITH CONFIDENCE. It has everything to do with putting up false fronts and appearances. To someone with low self-esteem you're basically telling them "you're the guy girls don't want here pretend to be someone else and you'll get women".
Oh well then that's fucked up then
Yeah this. Most people don't want to accept that they are at fault by default (tee-hee) so when they stumble upon other people saying.
You're so right! You're totally not at fault at all!
They latch on.
I think that's what's essentially wrong with their philosophy. It's all about covering up the simple fact that people will have sex with you. Full stop. If people are not having sex with you, it's not because you're not asking the right way-- it's because you're not asking, period.
Do any of them regard women as human beings on the same level as men, whose right to choose is both respected and desired?
Just going to quote this.
While not every story is a story about promoting confidence, social skills, and improved well being they do exist.
Men don't know what its like to be a woman, and women don't know what its like to be a man. Trans-gendered people are really on the forefront of figuring this shit out, but I don't know how many are here.
This would be a great thread to go into the dating perceptions of both genders.
bullshit
its a two way street of nervousness
Yes.
Right
Because I said that "banging chicks is an inalienable right"
Or implied it
Or something
Instead of you strawmanning my arguement that "good guys with no self-confidence deserve to have a loving relationship instead of torturing themselves with the pretense that they're worthless human beings"
I mean seriously what the fuck?
also, why should this scariness be confined to sexual relationships? Are they the only ones worth talking about?
agh. I'm not trying to minimise how some of you clearly feel, but you have to realise that you're not any more or less hard done by than any other person in a similar position of social isolation.
That's great (no sarcasm intended at all) but I'm surprised people who thought that would have anything to do with people who describe themselves as Pick Up Artists.
Yes but one side is a 12-lane superhighway of nervousness and the other is one lane of anxiety
they're very much an exception though, and more importantly they're still charging for stuff you can learn for free
I won't get into it but PUA is a newer label that gained popularity. The whole thing started off under lots of different names.