I've only received one love note in my life and it was creepy as fuck. The girl drew a picture of herself with duct tape covering her mouth, and a single tear dropping from one eye, on the cover. The letter read like my opinion mattered to her more than that of anyone else, and she was willing to do anything I asked of her, and change in any way I wished so that I might like her. There was also something in there about my birthday.
This was back in highschool when I never told anyone when my birthday was, so I'm still not sure how she found that out. She also had a habit of fucking people for their attention and acceptance. Of my close circle of friends, I was the only one who didn't date, or almost date her, or have feelings for her of any kind. I'm almost positive she just wanted to get the whole gang showering her with attention and affection, and because I knew it and knew how she was I never gave in, and that's why she wanted me.
It was all pretty fucked up.
Also, earlier that year she tried to cast a Wiccan spell on me or something that would make me like her. I didn't show up for school the next day and when she noticed she thought she'd accidentally killed me with magic.
You should've come in and pretended she'd transformed you into a golem, or whatever the pagan/wiccan equivalent for that would be.
Rereading that story, the girl seems less like a crazy person and more like a lonely teenager desperate enough to pursue an obvious pussytease.
Honestly, the only nutty part of that whole story was the 20-page scented letter. But then, when I graduated I wrote a longwinded, lovesick letter to the girl I liked (and received one in turn—I had unknowlngly touched off a dramatastic orgy of crazy on her end, but that's a story for another day), so it's not THAT weird a thing for a teenager to do.
I've only received one love note in my life and it was creepy as fuck. The girl drew a picture of herself with duct tape covering her mouth, and a single tear dropping from one eye, on the cover. The letter read like my opinion mattered to her more than that of anyone else, and she was willing to do anything I asked of her, and change in any way I wished so that I might like her. There was also something in there about my birthday.
This was back in highschool when I never told anyone when my birthday was, so I'm still not sure how she found that out. She also had a habit of fucking people for their attention and acceptance. Of my close circle of friends, I was the only one who didn't date, or almost date her, or have feelings for her of any kind. I'm almost positive she just wanted to get the whole gang showering her with attention and affection, and because I knew it and knew how she was I never gave in, and that's why she wanted me.
It was all pretty fucked up.
Also, earlier that year she tried to cast a Wiccan spell on me or something that would make me like her. I didn't show up for school the next day and when she noticed she thought she'd accidentally killed me with magic.
You don't transform someone into a golem, you make golems out of things.
People can be transformed into things which can be made into golems. Or they can't...but...within the applicable framework I believe my statement is logically consistent.
If you tried to use a spell to make someone fall in love with you in a selfish manner (instead of, say, make them find their one true love), it would probably be expected to make you fall into a horrible emotion-wrenching love square or something.
You don't transform someone into a golem, you make golems out of things.
People can be transformed into things which can be made into golems. Or they can't...but...within the applicable framework I believe my statement is logically consistent.
Thus if somenody turned you into a pile of clay....
Alright I never thought that far ahead. I was trying to think of something vaguely like a zombie, and the golem from the X-Files popped into my head.
But then, when I graduated I wrote a longwinded, lovesick letter to the girl I liked (and received one in turn—I had unknowlngly touched off a dramatastic orgy of crazy on her end, but that's a story for this exact thread, so I'll get to typing that up right away), so it's not THAT weird a thing for a teenager to do.
Heh, fair enough. It's a long story, but I'll try to keep it as contained as I can. Honestly, I don't know who the crazier one in this story: the girl for all the shit she pulled, or me for putting up with it.
Backstory:
We were in high school, the girl was a year younger than me. She had always been into me, and late in my Sophomore year she had actually pursued me pretty aggressively (stopped me in hallways just to ask me throwaway questions e.g. "What time is it?", took a journalism elective because she knew I was in it, invited me to hang out with her friends afterschool, etc). At one point she even got me to take her home after a concert and sent me those "KISS ME NOW" signals as hard as she could. She was attractive enough and seemed nice and everything, but I just wasn't into her for reasons I couldn't explain, so I didn't go through with it. I really should have trusted my instincts!
That summer we avoided each other due to the awkwardness, but by the time I was a senior we were really close friends and laughed off our little romantic misfire. She had now had a boyfriend for a solid year, and while it was an unstable reboundish relationship (constant near break-ups, emotional rollercoaster sort of thing) she seemed happy. I, on the other hand, hadn't found anyone I cared about, and it bothered me that I had no one to share happy senior year memories with. Being a bit of a romantic teenager I started thinking, "I've been close friends with this girl for two years now... she's really pretty and really cool... I feel more comfortable around her than anyone I know... FUCK."
And now the crazy, spoiler'd for length:
Long story short, I found myself pining for a girl two years too late. Being a chivalrous little idiot, I decided that I should get my feelings off my chest while expressly renouncing any attempt to pursue her. She had been in a mostly happy relationship for over a year and I was leaving for college in three months, what was the point? So I wrote a sappy letter confessing my feelings and telling her that I was taking the summer off to let my emotions cool a bit, and that I would reestablish contact once I was safely settled at college 1000 miles away. I delivered said letter on the last day of classes, expecting not to see her for a long time.
That evening she appeared on my doorstep in tears, gave me her own sappy letter, dragged me out of the house and took me on a long walk. At that point she confessed that she had never stopped having feelings for me, that she cared more about me than she ever had before, and that she had dumped her boyfriend pretty much the hour she got my letter. She told me that we didn't have long, but we should make the best of the three months we still had together and see where things took us from there. Her first choice for college was a school near mine, after all.
D'aw... teenage love, happily ever after, right?
WRONG. You see, in all the years I had known her, I had never pried into this girl's love life. Thus I never discovered one very important thing about her: she was a crazy drama queen, the kind who routinely broke up with her then-boyfriend and got back together with him, just to keep things exciting. Without knowing it, I had handed this girl what one should NEVER EVER give to a crazy drama queen: the chance to make her life a soap opera.
Things were just peachy with us for about two weeks... and then my new girlfriend started acting a little distant, a little strange. I found out the reason soon after when her "ex-boyfriend" confronted me over the phone. You see, she had never broken up with the poor guy, and just one day prior admitted to him that she had cheated on him with me. I guess she had fed him some story about how I had taken advantage of her old feelings for me and forced her to do something she wouldn't otherwise do, that I was still pursuing her and she didn't know how she could get me to stop bothering her.
"WHAT THE FUCK," thought I. Angry and not a little bit heartbroken, I explained the situation as best I could to the "ex-boyfriend," found the girl, informed her that what she was doing to her boyfriend and me was seriously fucked up, and that she shouldn't bother calling me again. Good riddance to bad rubbish, right?
Wrong. A week and a half later, the girl re-establishes contact with me, apologizing profusely for the earlier drama, telling me she had been confused about her feelings. Now she was REALLY broken up with her boyfriend—this time I verified the story through mutual friends and independent sources—and she wanted to try things again. Being an idiot and a lovesick teenager, I decided to give her another shot.
Things were going swell for about 5 days, when she appears on my doorstep, her face locked and betraying no emotion. She quietly informs me that the night prior her ex-boyfriend had come over to her house to talk about things. Talking gave way to passion, and before she knew it they were fucking like rabbits.
"Oh," said I. I had the peculiar sensation of being both heartbroken and completely unsurprised. My chest was caving in while my brain was going, "not this shit again." I continued with the next logical question: why, exactly, did she feel the need to tell me that last part? Surely she could have spared me the graphic details?
Her answer: because their love had been so passionate that they had fucked unprotected. And he had checked his brain at the door and came inside her.
Now I was just relieved that I hadn't slept with the crazy bitch yet. "Why the fuck are you here and not at an abortion clinic?"
Because the ex-boyfriend was freaking out too much to drive her there, and she didn't want to go alone.
Incredulous, I asked her: was she seriously asking me to take her to the abortion clinic in lieu of her ex-boyfriend? Because while I was pretty sure I hated her now, I was willing to temporarily set that aside to help her through that. Abortion's serious business and no one should have to go through it alone unless absolutely necessary.
No, one of her best friends was going to do that for her. He had always been there for her, unlike me. She just thought she should let me know before she went. Also—and this should go without saying—things were over between us. (Damn right they were!) At that point I finally managed to slam the door in her face.
Let's review: she decided that the best way to break things off with me was to tell me she had fucked her ex-boyfriend, potentially gotten pregnant, and didn't even trust me to help get her to the abortion clinic. Later I found out, through a friend of a friend, that the whole thing had been a false alarm. Sure had to give her points for style though, mirite?
For any logical, non-masochistic person, that would have been the end of it. And it was, for a while. But unfortunately, I was a lonely teenager, and thus I was both illogical and masochistic.
Being a drama queen, she hated being hated. It truly bothered her that I refused to even be friends with her. I think it might have legitimately confused her that I wouldn't let bygones be bygones and talk to her again. So she tried, with dogged determination, to get back in contact with me. I don't remember how she managed it, but a few weeks after I started college she weaseled her way back into my life. I guess I figured that there was a 1000 miles distance between us and that I was too smart too fall for her shit a third time, so what the hell, we could be friends right?
Slowly, we began to talk on AIM and the phone again. Staggeringly, I began to have some feelings for her again—though I never openly admitted as much. She picked up on it, though, and began dropping hints that she was applying early decision to the college near mine, that she was on the rocks with her boyfriend (they were back together again), and that maybe if we could put things behind us we could try to have a relationship again. Basically, she was lulling me onto the backburner: she could stay with her boyfriend through her senior year, but have me as a sort of "back-up" boyfriend when she a) needed more than he could offer and/or b) left him for better pastures.
By the time I figured out what she was doing, it was Christmas break and I was back home. I decided to give her one last chance. We grabbed lunch together as friends, just to talk and catch up. Soon enough, though, she was making her characteristic move: she told me that she and her boyfriend wouldn't last this year, that she was almost positive that she was going to be going to school in the same area as me, and that she hoped we could get back together again when she arrived. I told her to go fuck herself, drove her home, and promised her that I would never speak to her again. She responded by spreading rumors among our mutual friends that I was obsessed and stalking her. Thankfully, all but her best friends were wise to how shittily she had treated me throughout the year and didn't believe her.
To this day I haven't spoken to her. But remember, she hates knowing that there is anyone out in the world who dislikes her. Even five years later, she still occasionally sends me (every 10 months or so) e-mails or letters attempting to manipulate me into being her friend again. You name it, she's tried it: apologizing, begging, flirting, threatening to hurt herself, trying to talk to me through her friends, threatening to transfer to the college near mine (she didn't make the cut).
About a year ago, she sent me an e-mail apologizing for everything she did, asking me if I could ever forgive her and be friends with her again. I wrote back, and in a message as short as I could manage I told her that I would forgive her if that's what it took for her to leave me alone, but that we would never be friends. I then reminded her that I preferred not to talk with her and dropped a not-so-subtle hint that I would take our a restraining order the next time she tried to contact me. That finally seemed to get through to her.
I still have serious trust issues thanks to this bitch. It's been hard for me to begin any relationship with a girl without assuming that she's got surreptitious motives, and for a long time I wouldn't let myself care about anyone because I was afraid it would leave me wide open to being manipulated and exploited again.
Happy ending, though: I've been with my current girlfriend for a year and a half and, thanks to her patience, I've successfully worked through most of these issues. She's the one who helped me finally send that letter a year ago. It's nice to know that not every girl I date isn't out to run me through the gamut of emotional abuse.
But then, when I graduated I wrote a longwinded, lovesick letter to the girl I liked (and received one in turn—I had unknowlngly touched off a dramatastic orgy of crazy on her end, but that's a story for this exact thread, so I'll get to typing that up right away), so it's not THAT weird a thing for a teenager to do.
Heh, fair enough. It's a long story, but I'll try to keep it as contained as I can. Honestly, I don't know who the crazier one in this story: the girl for all the shit she pulled, or me for putting up with it.
Backstory:
We were in high school, the girl was a year younger than me. She had always been into me, and late in my Sophomore year she had actually pursued me pretty aggressively (stopped me in hallways just to ask me throwaway questions e.g. "What time is it?", took a journalism elective because she knew I was in it, invited me to hang out with her friends afterschool, etc). At one point she even got me to take her home after a concert and sent me those "KISS ME NOW" signals as hard as she could. She was attractive enough and seemed nice and everything, but I just wasn't into her for reasons I couldn't explain, so I didn't go through with it. I really should have trusted my instincts!
That summer we avoided each other due to the awkwardness, but by the time I was a senior we were really close friends and laughed off our little romantic misfire. She had now had a boyfriend for a solid year, and while it was an unstable reboundish relationship (constant near break-ups, emotional rollercoaster sort of thing) she seemed happy. I, on the other hand, hadn't found anyone I cared about, and it bothered me that I had no one to share happy senior year memories with. Being a bit of a romantic teenager I started thinking, "I've been close friends with this girl for two years now... she's really pretty and really cool... I feel more comfortable around her than anyone I know... FUCK."
And now the crazy, spoiler'd for length:
Long story short, I found myself pining for a girl two years too late. Being a chivalrous little idiot, I decided that I should get my feelings off my chest while expressly renouncing any attempt to pursue her. She had been in a mostly happy relationship for over a year and I was leaving for college in three months, what was the point? So I wrote a sappy letter confessing my feelings and telling her that I was taking the summer off to let my emotions cool a bit, and that I would reestablish contact once I was safely settled at college 1000 miles away. I delivered said letter on the last day of classes, expecting not to see her for a long time.
That evening she appeared on my doorstep in tears, gave me her own sappy letter, dragged me out of the house and took me on a long walk. At that point she confessed that she had never stopped having feelings for me, that she cared more about me than she ever had before, and that she had dumped her boyfriend pretty much the hour she got my letter. She told me that we didn't have long, but we should make the best of the three months we still had together and see where things took us from there. Her first choice for college was a school near mine, after all.
D'aw... teenage love, happily ever after, right?
WRONG. You see, in all the years I had known her, I had never pried into this girl's love life. Thus I never discovered one very important thing about her: she was a crazy drama queen, the kind who routinely broke up with her then-boyfriend and got back together with him, just to keep things exciting. Without knowing it, I had handed this girl what one should NEVER EVER give to a crazy drama queen: the chance to make her life a soap opera.
Things were just peachy with us for about two weeks... and then my new girlfriend started acting a little distant, a little strange. I found out the reason soon after when her "ex-boyfriend" confronted me over the phone. You see, she had never broken up with the poor guy, and just one day prior admitted to him that she had cheated on him with me. I guess she had fed him some story about how I had taken advantage of her old feelings for me and forced her to do something she wouldn't otherwise do, that I was still pursuing her and she didn't know how she could get me to stop bothering her.
"WHAT THE FUCK," thought I. Angry and not a little bit heartbroken, I explained the situation as best I could to the "ex-boyfriend," found the girl, informed her that what she was doing to her boyfriend and me was seriously fucked up, and that she shouldn't bother calling me again. Good riddance to bad rubbish, right?
Wrong. A week and a half later, the girl re-establishes contact with me, apologizing profusely for the earlier drama, telling me she had been confused about her feelings. Now she was REALLY broken up with her boyfriend—this time I verified the story through mutual friends and independent sources—and she wanted to try things again. Being an idiot and a lovesick teenager, I decided to give her another shot.
Things were going swell for about 5 days, when she appears on my doorstep, her face locked and betraying no emotion. She quietly informs me that the night prior her ex-boyfriend had come over to her house to talk about things. Talking gave way to passion, and before she knew it they were fucking like rabbits.
"Oh," said I. I had the peculiar sensation of being both heartbroken and completely unsurprised. My chest was caving in while my brain was going, "not this shit again." I continued with the next logical question: why, exactly, did she feel the need to tell me that last part? Surely she could have spared me the graphic details?
Her answer: because their love had been so passionate that they had fucked unprotected. And he had checked his brain at the door and came inside her.
Now I was just relieved that I hadn't slept with the crazy bitch yet. "Why the fuck are you here and not at an abortion clinic?"
Because the ex-boyfriend was freaking out too much to drive her there, and she didn't want to go alone.
Incredulous, I asked her: was she seriously asking me to take her to the abortion clinic in lieu of her ex-boyfriend? Because while I was pretty sure I hated her now, I was willing to temporarily set that aside to help her through that. Abortion's serious business and no one should have to go through it alone unless absolutely necessary.
No, one of her best friends was going to do that for her. He had always been there for her, unlike me. She just thought she should let me know before she went. Also—and this should go without saying—things were over between us. (Damn right they were!) At that point I finally managed to slam the door in her face.
Let's review: she decided that the best way to break things off with me was to tell me she had fucked her ex-boyfriend, potentially gotten pregnant, and didn't even trust me to help get her to the abortion clinic. Later I found out, through a friend of a friend, that the whole thing had been a false alarm. Sure had to give her points for style though, mirite?
For any logical, non-masochistic person, that would have been the end of it. And it was, for a while. But unfortunately, I was a lonely teenager, and thus I was both illogical and masochistic.
Being a drama queen, she hated being hated. It truly bothered her that I refused to even be friends with her. I think it might have legitimately confused her that I wouldn't let bygones be bygones and talk to her again. So she tried, with dogged determination, to get back in contact with me. I don't remember how she managed it, but a few weeks after I started college she weaseled her way back into my life. I guess I figured that there was a 1000 miles distance between us and that I was too smart too fall for her shit a third time, so what the hell, we could be friends right?
Slowly, we began to talk on AIM and the phone again. Staggeringly, I began to have some feelings for her again—though I never openly admitted as much. She picked up on it, though, and began dropping hints that she was applying early decision to the college near mine, that she was on the rocks with her boyfriend (they were back together again), and that maybe if we could put things behind us we could try to have a relationship again. Basically, she was lulling me onto the backburner: she could stay with her boyfriend through her senior year, but have me as a sort of "back-up" boyfriend when she a) needed more than he could offer and/or b) left him for better pastures.
By the time I figured out what she was doing, it was Christmas break and I was back home. I decided to give her one last chance. We grabbed lunch together as friends, just to talk and catch up. Soon enough, though, she was making her characteristic move: she told me that she and her boyfriend wouldn't last this year, that she was almost positive that she was going to be going to school in the same area as me, and that she hoped we could get back together again when she arrived. I told her to go fuck herself, drove her home, and promised her that I would never speak to her again. She responded by spreading rumors among our mutual friends that I was obsessed and stalking her. Thankfully, all but her best friends were wise to how shittily she had treated me throughout the year and didn't believe her.
To this day I haven't spoken to her. But remember, she hates knowing that there is anyone out in the world who dislikes her. Even five years later, she still occasionally sends me (every 10 months or so) e-mails or letters attempting to manipulate me into being her friend again. You name it, she's tried it: apologizing, begging, flirting, threatening to hurt herself, trying to talk to me through her friends, threatening to transfer to the college near mine (she didn't make the cut).
About a year ago, she sent me an e-mail apologizing for everything she did, asking me if I could ever forgive her and be friends with her again. I wrote back, and in a message as short as I could manage I told her that I would forgive her if that's what it took for her to leave me alone, but that we would never be friends. I then reminded her that I preferred not to talk with her and dropped a not-so-subtle hint that I would take our a restraining order the next time she tried to contact me. That finally seemed to get through to her.
I still have serious trust issues thanks to this bitch. It's been hard for me to begin any relationship with a girl without assuming that she's got surreptitious motives, and for a long time I wouldn't let myself care about anyone because I was afraid it would leave me wide open to being manipulated and exploited again.
Happy ending, though: I've been with my current girlfriend for a year and a half and, thanks to her patience, I've successfully worked through most of these issues. She's the one who helped me finally send that letter a year ago. It's nice to know that not every girl I date isn't out to run me through the gamut of emotional abuse.
As much as I want to call you an idiot for the number of times you fell for her tricks, up until recently I probably could have done the same thing...and I don't even have the teenage excuse.
Heh, you should take that the "pick-up artists" thread.
Heh, fair enough. It's a long story, but I'll try to keep it as contained as I can. Honestly, I don't know who the crazier one in this story: the girl for all the shit she pulled, or me for putting up with it.
That's fairly common after the glow is dead.
edit: I'm a little surprised, and then relieved, you two never got to bang.
I'm almost positive she just wanted to get the whole gang showering her with attention and affection, and because I knew it and knew how she was I never gave in, and that's why she wanted me.
Funny how that happens. People tend to get so wrapped up over someone they know they can't have.
Heh, fair enough. It's a long story, but I'll try to keep it as contained as I can. Honestly, I don't know who the crazier one in this story: the girl for all the shit she pulled, or me for putting up with it.
That's fairly common after the glow is dead.
edit: I'm a little surprised, and then relieved, you two never got to bang.
Woah I missed that. So ChopperDave you got precisely zero benefit out of this entire sordid affair?
As much as I want to call you an idiot for the number of times you fell for her tricks, up until recently I probably could have done the same thing...and I don't even have the teenage excuse.
Heh, you should take that the "pick-up artists" thread.
Seriously, I don't think I can convey how brutally effective this girl was when it came to manipulating me (and for that matter, her on-again-off-again boyfriend). From reminding me of our two years of friendship—to an extent I always thought this new, manipulative side of her was "out of character" with what I remembered her being like—to appealing to my loneliness and romanticism, to even turning me into a white knight who would save her from her insipid, passionless relationship... this girl always knew exactly which of my buttons to push, at the exact right time.
I still think she would make an excellent spy or saleswoman.
Woah I missed that. So ChopperDave you got precisely zero benefit out of this entire sordid affair?
Nah, not once. Some making out and heavy petting aside this was a purely emotional affair, which I'm actually pretty relieved about myself. God knows what kind of can of worms I would have released if I slept with the girl. (I know from later experiences, and this thread, that sex tends to release an avalanche of craziness in the psychos out there).
Shit. I thought it was never going to actually come to this, but my boyfriend tried to make me an atheist. (I'm Jewish, not specially observant, hardly the sort of screechy fundamentalist who's hard to live with. I didn't think it was going to be a problem in our relationship.)
It's fucking with my head because I'm scared he might convince me, and if he does, I'm going to lose my sense of moral order. I seriously felt like I was losing my mind during our conversation. I cannot beat his arguments, and I'm just stuck with the powerful sense that it's just too damn convenient for him to believe that there is no God and no judge over our actions, and no need to feel haunted by guilt and gratitude. It fits his complacent personality too neatly.
He gave me one of those New Atheist books for my birthday. And then I didn't have the heart to fool around with him because I imagined God watching us acting like dumb naked mammals and I was disgusted. He seems to have no idea he's upset me. Stupid arrogant motherfucker.
Shit. I thought it was never going to actually come to this, but my boyfriend tried to make me an atheist. (I'm Jewish, not specially observant, hardly the sort of screechy fundamentalist who's hard to live with. I didn't think it was going to be a problem in our relationship.)
It's fucking with my head because I'm scared he might convince me, and if he does, I'm going to lose my sense of moral order. I seriously felt like I was losing my mind during our conversation. I cannot beat his arguments, and I'm just stuck with the powerful sense that it's just too damn convenient for him to believe that there is no God and no judge over our actions, and no need to feel haunted by guilt and gratitude. It fits his complacent personality too neatly.
He gave me one of those New Atheist books for my birthday. And then I didn't have the heart to fool around with him because I imagined God watching us acting like dumb naked mammals and I was disgusted. He seems to have no idea he's upset me. Stupid arrogant motherfucker.
Maybe your boyfriend shouldn't be trying to convince you to become an atheist, but you really don't suddenly become amoral if you're not religious. Atheists still have consciences. Neither believing in God(s) or not is justification for being selfish/evil.
There is a quote from one of the New Atheist books which talks about something called the overjustification effect, though, which is what sometimes happens in that sort of situation:
Still, people do often vigorously insist that religious beliefs are necessary to ensure moral behavior. Though the claim is quite clearly false of people in general, there is a sense in which it might be true if one has been brought up in a very religious environment. A classic experiment on the so-called overjustification effect by the psychologists David Greene, Betty Sternberg, and Mark Lepper is relevant. They exposed fourth- and fifth-grade students to a variety of intriguing mathematical games and measured the time the children played them. They found that the children seemed to possess a good deal of intrinsic interest in the games. The games were fun. After a few days, however, the psychologists began to reward the children for playing; those playing them more had a better chance of winning the prizes offered. The prizes did increase the time the children played the games, but when the prizes were stopped, the children lost almost all interest in the games and rarely played them. The extrinsic rewards had undercut the children's intrinsic interest. Likewise, religious injunctions and rewards promised to children for being good might, if repudiated in later life, drastically reduce the time people spend playing the "being good" game. This is another reason not to base ethics on religious teachings.
Shit. I thought it was never going to actually come to this, but my boyfriend tried to make me an atheist. (I'm Jewish, not specially observant, hardly the sort of screechy fundamentalist who's hard to live with. I didn't think it was going to be a problem in our relationship.)
It's fucking with my head because I'm scared he might convince me, and if he does, I'm going to lose my sense of moral order. I seriously felt like I was losing my mind during our conversation. I cannot beat his arguments, and I'm just stuck with the powerful sense that it's just too damn convenient for him to believe that there is no God and no judge over our actions, and no need to feel haunted by guilt and gratitude. It fits his complacent personality too neatly.
He gave me one of those New Atheist books for my birthday. And then I didn't have the heart to fool around with him because I imagined God watching us acting like dumb naked mammals and I was disgusted. He seems to have no idea he's upset me. Stupid arrogant motherfucker.
Maybe your boyfriend shouldn't be trying to convince you to become an atheist, but you really don't suddenly become amoral if you're not religious. Atheists still have consciences. Neither believing in God(s) or not is justification for being selfish/evil.
I think you're missing her point. Suddenly losing a fundamental part of your life and belief system (such as your religion) is a traumatizing event. Sure, people on both sides of the fence are ok, and some people transition from one side to the other (keyword: transition. slowly.) but suddenly being pushed from one side to the other can fuck you up.
@celandine: why are you with him anyway? If he wants to fundamentally change you, then clearly he doesn't love you for who you are. And if he hurts you as much as you make it sound in your post and he doesn't even realize it, well... why accept it?
There's no way I'd ever risk going that far to drag my partner over to my religious/political/marvel vs. dc position. Anything short of them being a nazi or something, the only situation I can think of that really being an issue would be kids - I wouldn't care too much about them being given your usual, run-of-the-mill definition of a "christian upbringing", but homeschooling them in creationism and all kinds of anti-educational crap is a big no-no. Frankly relationships are far too important to let things like that get in the way so easily.
Not to fault you, Celandine, but atheists can be good people too.
edit: And it's stuff like this that makes me religiously ambivalent. I guess the closest thing you could label me as is "agnostic". I don't believe in God, I don't NOT believe in God, I just don't care.
double edit: And don't write off those books so offhandedly. There are plenty of people who read the Bible simply as a book of ancient stories, as I did in High School. I've also read parts of the Torah and a little of the Quran (all translated, of course). That doesn't make me pagan scum. It makes me open to new ideas. I could read a well written atheist book. I don't have to change myself if I read a book, and if you read it and realize that maybe atheism is for you, it's a conclusion you came to yourself with ideas and facts presented to you.
triple edit: also, if you're so worried about God and all, then why the sex and the cursing?
I know perfectly well that atheists can be moral people. Hannah Arendt was no slouch in the ethics department. And my bf, pretty much, is a good guy himself. I would never try to convince anyone I know to convert to my religion -- I feel pretty strongly about people's right to follow their own consciences.
The thing is, I can't shake the belief that it would be incredibly wrong for me to be an atheist. There's a lot I don't know about religion and philosophy, and a lot of ways in which I fall short, but this is my source of stability. I honestly don't want to throw it all away. Put it this way. People have died rather than renounce being Jewish. If you look at it in historical perspective, it would be a major cop-out if I were to quit just because I've read some books and newspaper articles and gotten confused and faithless. There is something, which I don't entirely understand, that I want to be loyal to. And for me, there really is a moral order that falls apart if there is no God, though I can't speak for other people. There's an order and sanity in religion that I don't want to lose touch with.
As for why I stay with the boy:
1. we're close. We're very close; our minds work the same way; we complete each other's sentences. He's a smart guy, and conversation with him is addictive.
2. He's my first boyfriend. (Yes, I was a lonely little bookworm through my teenage years and only became more outgoing in college.) He opened up a new world for me.
3. The last time I tried breaking up with him, he lost his temper and broke my furniture. Then I missed
him and we got back together. It would be hell for both of us if we broke up again. (Though I'll have to, sometime this year, because I'm graduating and I don't want to do the long distance thing. This is no fun.)
4. I ... er ... like fooling around with him. True, I'm nice-looking and I could probably play the field, but I don't like getting drunk at parties and I don't want to be used by jerks I don't know very well. Having a long-term relationship means I can get laid by someone who's reasonably compassionate.
It's a screwy situation. He's nuts about me, and if not for me he'd never have any chance with a girl (being shy, unsure of what he's doing with his future, and a little pudgy and pimply.) My folks don't like him and my friends never warmed to him. But I don't know how I'd make it without him. I've tried once and couldn't do it -- it was too lonely. I've turned down lots of guys to stay with him. I think I still love him.
Not to fault you, Celandine, but atheists can be good people too.
edit: And it's stuff like this that makes me religiously ambivalent. I guess the closest thing you could label me as is "agnostic". I don't believe in God, I don't NOT believe in God, I just don't care.
double edit: And don't write off those books so offhandedly. There are plenty of people who read the Bible simply as a book of ancient stories, as I did in High School. I've also read parts of the Torah and a little of the Quran (all translated, of course). That doesn't make me pagan scum. It makes me open to new ideas. I could read a well written atheist book. I don't have to change myself if I read a book, and if you read it and realize that maybe atheism is for you, it's a conclusion you came to yourself with ideas and facts presented to you.
triple edit: also, if you're so worried about God and all, then why the sex and the cursing?
Again, I know atheists can be good people.
Why the sex and cursing?
I don't know of any religious injunction against foul language. Sorry if it offends you.
The sex? I thought it through, read a bunch of Susie Bright sex-positive feminist stuff, and came to the conclusion that it's possible to have ethical pre-marital sex. That's not consistent with a literal interpretation of the Bible, I know. I don't know what to make of it. I only know that I'm pretty sure that sex isn't wrong (and neither is homosexuality.) Most of the time I'm a nice American liberal/libertarian, whose ethical beliefs are about respecting rights and not harming people and that sort of thing. I also happen to be saddled with a 3000-year-old document that I can't dismiss, although it says very different things. It's confusing.
One of my girlfriends and I could never get along when it came to religion and we were both atheists. She'd be all, "Fuck religion all religious people are ignorant bastards" and I'd be like "No they're not be reasonable". Then she'd get on about how there is no God and religion is a lie but she's still spiritual and I'm dumb for being a 'complete atheist'.
Basically, a smart person and dumb person will not make a good couple, and religion has nothing to do with it.
One of my girlfriends and I could never get along when it came to religion and we were both atheists. She'd be all, "Fuck religion all religious people are ignorant bastards" and I'd be like "No they're not be reasonable". Then she'd get on about how there is no God and religion is a lie but she's still spiritual and I'm dumb for being a 'complete atheist'.
Basically, a smart person and dumb person will not make a good couple, and religion has nothing to do with it.
On the flip side, my first girlfriend was an atheist of Chinese-Buddhist decent and I'm Christian, and we never argued about religion. We were genuinely curious about each other's religious background, talked about it freely, and we even agreed on some points.
3. The last time I tried breaking up with him, he lost his temper and broke my furniture. Then I missed
him and we got back together. It would be hell for both of us if we broke up again. (Though I'll have to, sometime this year, because I'm graduating and I don't want to do the long distance thing. This is no fun.)
Help?
Holy shit. No offense, but I don't want my bf smashing my furniture is a very bad reason not to break up with someone, Celandine.
Also, I had the same fear of "long-distance" relationships - I broke up with two girlfriends because I didn't want to deal with it. I'm sure some people have heartwarming stories of staying together through that kind of thing, but honestly it's only something I'd consider if we'd been together a long time - at least around 8 months, we both felt things were steady, and we both thought the relationship serious. That's my advice, anyway.
Celandine- I'm sorry to say all of this, but he sounds a lot like my recent ex. He would try to change things about me that I thought were okay. My parents hated him, my friends never really liked him. He had a bad temper. He, like you, was my first boyfriend and I was absolutely devoted to him. We were close, too. but shit happened (unfortunately a lot of shit) and I realized that he was trying to change me too much.
He may not be doing all the shit my ex put me through (I've posted about him a couple pages back), but he's trying to change things about you that means an awful lot to you, and that's really shitty.
Edit: Shit, he broke your furniture, I'd be PISSED. Seriously, this sounds all too familiar to me. I hope you take what I say to heart, cause I've been there.
They just weren't my boyfriend and I was being faithful to him.
Well, you don't really need to worry about hooking up with users, then. You have options, and you can spot a user.
3 isn't a very good reason to stay with him either. You're going to have to deal with that shit sooner or later, unless you end up marrying this guy.
That leaves 2, which you should grow out of once your new world just becomes a world you're frustrated with, and 1. So yeah, as soon as you find some other way to sate your desires for riveting conversation, dump this guy WITH A VENGEANCE. He's clearly not what you're looking for from a longterm relationship, aside from the fact that he is a longterm relationship.
Yeah, I know. My best friend had the same reaction. Smashing furniture does seem like bad behavior to me. Maybe I do have to do something about this. I just really hate making a scene. And he needs me.
Yeah, I know. My best friend had the same reaction. Smashing furniture does seem like bad behavior to me. (Just like you, Alyce, my folks don't like him and my friends never warmed to him.) Maybe I do have to do something about this. I just really hate making a scene. And he needs me.
I'm sorry, but you shouldn't stay in a relationship for this reason, especially one that could potentially be abusive.
...how does he need you? You say he wouldn't be able to get another girlfriend, but he got you didn't he? I'm sure he'd be able to manage to get another girlfriend to try and manipulate. You're walking on eggshells for the guy, it seems. These are harsh words, but it took a lot of shit taking and a break up for me to realize that i could do much better. I don't want you to go through the same thing because you feel like the guy "needs" you.
Posts
You should've come in and pretended she'd transformed you into a golem, or whatever the pagan/wiccan equivalent for that would be.
No. No.
This is a story for right now, you tease.
Wicca usually has things like a three-fold penalty for being a jackass.
If you are a jackass to someone you'll get jackassery happening to you thrice over.
--
You don't transform someone into a golem, you make golems out of things.
Closest thing to a person golem is Frankenstein.
Arch,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_goGR39m2k
Zombies.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Eh?
Jeez thanks for ruining it :P
People can be transformed into things which can be made into golems. Or they can't...but...within the applicable framework I believe my statement is logically consistent.
Or such has been my impression.
--
Mori: Your magic is silly. :P
Thus if somenody turned you into a pile of clay....
Alright I never thought that far ahead. I was trying to think of something vaguely like a zombie, and the golem from the X-Files popped into my head.
*sigh*
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Heh, fair enough. It's a long story, but I'll try to keep it as contained as I can. Honestly, I don't know who the crazier one in this story: the girl for all the shit she pulled, or me for putting up with it.
Backstory:
That summer we avoided each other due to the awkwardness, but by the time I was a senior we were really close friends and laughed off our little romantic misfire. She had now had a boyfriend for a solid year, and while it was an unstable reboundish relationship (constant near break-ups, emotional rollercoaster sort of thing) she seemed happy. I, on the other hand, hadn't found anyone I cared about, and it bothered me that I had no one to share happy senior year memories with. Being a bit of a romantic teenager I started thinking, "I've been close friends with this girl for two years now... she's really pretty and really cool... I feel more comfortable around her than anyone I know... FUCK."
And now the crazy, spoiler'd for length:
That evening she appeared on my doorstep in tears, gave me her own sappy letter, dragged me out of the house and took me on a long walk. At that point she confessed that she had never stopped having feelings for me, that she cared more about me than she ever had before, and that she had dumped her boyfriend pretty much the hour she got my letter. She told me that we didn't have long, but we should make the best of the three months we still had together and see where things took us from there. Her first choice for college was a school near mine, after all.
D'aw... teenage love, happily ever after, right?
WRONG. You see, in all the years I had known her, I had never pried into this girl's love life. Thus I never discovered one very important thing about her: she was a crazy drama queen, the kind who routinely broke up with her then-boyfriend and got back together with him, just to keep things exciting. Without knowing it, I had handed this girl what one should NEVER EVER give to a crazy drama queen: the chance to make her life a soap opera.
Things were just peachy with us for about two weeks... and then my new girlfriend started acting a little distant, a little strange. I found out the reason soon after when her "ex-boyfriend" confronted me over the phone. You see, she had never broken up with the poor guy, and just one day prior admitted to him that she had cheated on him with me. I guess she had fed him some story about how I had taken advantage of her old feelings for me and forced her to do something she wouldn't otherwise do, that I was still pursuing her and she didn't know how she could get me to stop bothering her.
"WHAT THE FUCK," thought I. Angry and not a little bit heartbroken, I explained the situation as best I could to the "ex-boyfriend," found the girl, informed her that what she was doing to her boyfriend and me was seriously fucked up, and that she shouldn't bother calling me again. Good riddance to bad rubbish, right?
Wrong. A week and a half later, the girl re-establishes contact with me, apologizing profusely for the earlier drama, telling me she had been confused about her feelings. Now she was REALLY broken up with her boyfriend—this time I verified the story through mutual friends and independent sources—and she wanted to try things again. Being an idiot and a lovesick teenager, I decided to give her another shot.
Things were going swell for about 5 days, when she appears on my doorstep, her face locked and betraying no emotion. She quietly informs me that the night prior her ex-boyfriend had come over to her house to talk about things. Talking gave way to passion, and before she knew it they were fucking like rabbits.
"Oh," said I. I had the peculiar sensation of being both heartbroken and completely unsurprised. My chest was caving in while my brain was going, "not this shit again." I continued with the next logical question: why, exactly, did she feel the need to tell me that last part? Surely she could have spared me the graphic details?
Her answer: because their love had been so passionate that they had fucked unprotected. And he had checked his brain at the door and came inside her.
Now I was just relieved that I hadn't slept with the crazy bitch yet. "Why the fuck are you here and not at an abortion clinic?"
Because the ex-boyfriend was freaking out too much to drive her there, and she didn't want to go alone.
Incredulous, I asked her: was she seriously asking me to take her to the abortion clinic in lieu of her ex-boyfriend? Because while I was pretty sure I hated her now, I was willing to temporarily set that aside to help her through that. Abortion's serious business and no one should have to go through it alone unless absolutely necessary.
No, one of her best friends was going to do that for her. He had always been there for her, unlike me. She just thought she should let me know before she went. Also—and this should go without saying—things were over between us. (Damn right they were!) At that point I finally managed to slam the door in her face.
Let's review: she decided that the best way to break things off with me was to tell me she had fucked her ex-boyfriend, potentially gotten pregnant, and didn't even trust me to help get her to the abortion clinic. Later I found out, through a friend of a friend, that the whole thing had been a false alarm. Sure had to give her points for style though, mirite?
For any logical, non-masochistic person, that would have been the end of it. And it was, for a while. But unfortunately, I was a lonely teenager, and thus I was both illogical and masochistic.
Being a drama queen, she hated being hated. It truly bothered her that I refused to even be friends with her. I think it might have legitimately confused her that I wouldn't let bygones be bygones and talk to her again. So she tried, with dogged determination, to get back in contact with me. I don't remember how she managed it, but a few weeks after I started college she weaseled her way back into my life. I guess I figured that there was a 1000 miles distance between us and that I was too smart too fall for her shit a third time, so what the hell, we could be friends right?
Slowly, we began to talk on AIM and the phone again. Staggeringly, I began to have some feelings for her again—though I never openly admitted as much. She picked up on it, though, and began dropping hints that she was applying early decision to the college near mine, that she was on the rocks with her boyfriend (they were back together again), and that maybe if we could put things behind us we could try to have a relationship again. Basically, she was lulling me onto the backburner: she could stay with her boyfriend through her senior year, but have me as a sort of "back-up" boyfriend when she a) needed more than he could offer and/or b) left him for better pastures.
By the time I figured out what she was doing, it was Christmas break and I was back home. I decided to give her one last chance. We grabbed lunch together as friends, just to talk and catch up. Soon enough, though, she was making her characteristic move: she told me that she and her boyfriend wouldn't last this year, that she was almost positive that she was going to be going to school in the same area as me, and that she hoped we could get back together again when she arrived. I told her to go fuck herself, drove her home, and promised her that I would never speak to her again. She responded by spreading rumors among our mutual friends that I was obsessed and stalking her. Thankfully, all but her best friends were wise to how shittily she had treated me throughout the year and didn't believe her.
To this day I haven't spoken to her. But remember, she hates knowing that there is anyone out in the world who dislikes her. Even five years later, she still occasionally sends me (every 10 months or so) e-mails or letters attempting to manipulate me into being her friend again. You name it, she's tried it: apologizing, begging, flirting, threatening to hurt herself, trying to talk to me through her friends, threatening to transfer to the college near mine (she didn't make the cut).
About a year ago, she sent me an e-mail apologizing for everything she did, asking me if I could ever forgive her and be friends with her again. I wrote back, and in a message as short as I could manage I told her that I would forgive her if that's what it took for her to leave me alone, but that we would never be friends. I then reminded her that I preferred not to talk with her and dropped a not-so-subtle hint that I would take our a restraining order the next time she tried to contact me. That finally seemed to get through to her.
I still have serious trust issues thanks to this bitch. It's been hard for me to begin any relationship with a girl without assuming that she's got surreptitious motives, and for a long time I wouldn't let myself care about anyone because I was afraid it would leave me wide open to being manipulated and exploited again.
Happy ending, though: I've been with my current girlfriend for a year and a half and, thanks to her patience, I've successfully worked through most of these issues.
As much as I want to call you an idiot for the number of times you fell for her tricks, up until recently I probably could have done the same thing...and I don't even have the teenage excuse.
Heh, you should take that the "pick-up artists" thread.
That's fairly common after the glow is dead.
edit: I'm a little surprised, and then relieved, you two never got to bang.
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Funny how that happens. People tend to get so wrapped up over someone they know they can't have.
Woah I missed that. So ChopperDave you got precisely zero benefit out of this entire sordid affair?
Seriously, I don't think I can convey how brutally effective this girl was when it came to manipulating me (and for that matter, her on-again-off-again boyfriend). From reminding me of our two years of friendship—to an extent I always thought this new, manipulative side of her was "out of character" with what I remembered her being like—to appealing to my loneliness and romanticism, to even turning me into a white knight who would save her from her insipid, passionless relationship... this girl always knew exactly which of my buttons to push, at the exact right time.
I still think she would make an excellent spy or saleswoman.
Nah, not once. Some making out and heavy petting aside this was a purely emotional affair, which I'm actually pretty relieved about myself. God knows what kind of can of worms I would have released if I slept with the girl. (I know from later experiences, and this thread, that sex tends to release an avalanche of craziness in the psychos out there).
THis is going to turn into a Pick Up Artist thread again, but you never really hear about men using their male wiles. I blame society.
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It's fucking with my head because I'm scared he might convince me, and if he does, I'm going to lose my sense of moral order. I seriously felt like I was losing my mind during our conversation. I cannot beat his arguments, and I'm just stuck with the powerful sense that it's just too damn convenient for him to believe that there is no God and no judge over our actions, and no need to feel haunted by guilt and gratitude. It fits his complacent personality too neatly.
He gave me one of those New Atheist books for my birthday. And then I didn't have the heart to fool around with him because I imagined God watching us acting like dumb naked mammals and I was disgusted. He seems to have no idea he's upset me. Stupid arrogant motherfucker.
http://numberblog.wordpress.com/
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
This was generally stuff that kept me out of trouble rather than getting me into it.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Maybe your boyfriend shouldn't be trying to convince you to become an atheist, but you really don't suddenly become amoral if you're not religious. Atheists still have consciences. Neither believing in God(s) or not is justification for being selfish/evil.
There is a quote from one of the New Atheist books which talks about something called the overjustification effect, though, which is what sometimes happens in that sort of situation:
@celandine: why are you with him anyway? If he wants to fundamentally change you, then clearly he doesn't love you for who you are. And if he hurts you as much as you make it sound in your post and he doesn't even realize it, well... why accept it?
edit: And it's stuff like this that makes me religiously ambivalent. I guess the closest thing you could label me as is "agnostic". I don't believe in God, I don't NOT believe in God, I just don't care.
double edit: And don't write off those books so offhandedly. There are plenty of people who read the Bible simply as a book of ancient stories, as I did in High School. I've also read parts of the Torah and a little of the Quran (all translated, of course). That doesn't make me pagan scum. It makes me open to new ideas. I could read a well written atheist book. I don't have to change myself if I read a book, and if you read it and realize that maybe atheism is for you, it's a conclusion you came to yourself with ideas and facts presented to you.
triple edit: also, if you're so worried about God and all, then why the sex and the cursing?
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Been there. Though I still think that was because I fell for the girl while she was on the upswing of bipolar. Always sucks.
The thing is, I can't shake the belief that it would be incredibly wrong for me to be an atheist. There's a lot I don't know about religion and philosophy, and a lot of ways in which I fall short, but this is my source of stability. I honestly don't want to throw it all away. Put it this way. People have died rather than renounce being Jewish. If you look at it in historical perspective, it would be a major cop-out if I were to quit just because I've read some books and newspaper articles and gotten confused and faithless. There is something, which I don't entirely understand, that I want to be loyal to. And for me, there really is a moral order that falls apart if there is no God, though I can't speak for other people. There's an order and sanity in religion that I don't want to lose touch with.
As for why I stay with the boy:
1. we're close. We're very close; our minds work the same way; we complete each other's sentences. He's a smart guy, and conversation with him is addictive.
2. He's my first boyfriend. (Yes, I was a lonely little bookworm through my teenage years and only became more outgoing in college.) He opened up a new world for me.
3. The last time I tried breaking up with him, he lost his temper and broke my furniture. Then I missed
him and we got back together. It would be hell for both of us if we broke up again. (Though I'll have to, sometime this year, because I'm graduating and I don't want to do the long distance thing. This is no fun.)
4. I ... er ... like fooling around with him. True, I'm nice-looking and I could probably play the field, but I don't like getting drunk at parties and I don't want to be used by jerks I don't know very well. Having a long-term relationship means I can get laid by someone who's reasonably compassionate.
It's a screwy situation. He's nuts about me, and if not for me he'd never have any chance with a girl (being shy, unsure of what he's doing with his future, and a little pudgy and pimply.) My folks don't like him and my friends never warmed to him. But I don't know how I'd make it without him. I've tried once and couldn't do it -- it was too lonely. I've turned down lots of guys to stay with him. I think I still love him.
Help?
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Again, I know atheists can be good people.
Why the sex and cursing?
I don't know of any religious injunction against foul language. Sorry if it offends you.
The sex? I thought it through, read a bunch of Susie Bright sex-positive feminist stuff, and came to the conclusion that it's possible to have ethical pre-marital sex. That's not consistent with a literal interpretation of the Bible, I know. I don't know what to make of it. I only know that I'm pretty sure that sex isn't wrong (and neither is homosexuality.) Most of the time I'm a nice American liberal/libertarian, whose ethical beliefs are about respecting rights and not harming people and that sort of thing. I also happen to be saddled with a 3000-year-old document that I can't dismiss, although it says very different things. It's confusing.
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Basically, a smart person and dumb person will not make a good couple, and religion has nothing to do with it.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
They just weren't my boyfriend and I was being faithful to him.
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Holy shit. No offense, but I don't want my bf smashing my furniture is a very bad reason not to break up with someone, Celandine.
Also, I had the same fear of "long-distance" relationships - I broke up with two girlfriends because I didn't want to deal with it. I'm sure some people have heartwarming stories of staying together through that kind of thing, but honestly it's only something I'd consider if we'd been together a long time - at least around 8 months, we both felt things were steady, and we both thought the relationship serious. That's my advice, anyway.
He may not be doing all the shit my ex put me through (I've posted about him a couple pages back), but he's trying to change things about you that means an awful lot to you, and that's really shitty.
Edit: Shit, he broke your furniture, I'd be PISSED. Seriously, this sounds all too familiar to me. I hope you take what I say to heart, cause I've been there.
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Well, you don't really need to worry about hooking up with users, then. You have options, and you can spot a user.
3 isn't a very good reason to stay with him either. You're going to have to deal with that shit sooner or later, unless you end up marrying this guy.
That leaves 2, which you should grow out of once your new world just becomes a world you're frustrated with, and 1. So yeah, as soon as you find some other way to sate your desires for riveting conversation, dump this guy WITH A VENGEANCE. He's clearly not what you're looking for from a longterm relationship, aside from the fact that he is a longterm relationship.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
http://numberblog.wordpress.com/
I'm sorry, but you shouldn't stay in a relationship for this reason, especially one that could potentially be abusive.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
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