See I always thought it was an unsaid rule that you don't flirt with a person who is into you unless you're into them. You're just making it worse.
But that's the predicament. I wasn't flirting more than I do with any regular girl I know. It's how I talk to girls. So after she complained, I had to start having conversations with her online and in person that were a lot more boring.
Edit: I hate when you "Go to newest unread post" and it's the last post on the page, so you don't think to check the page count, and then you quote and reply, and end up quoting and replying to something that was actually said 3 pages ago and has lost its relevance because people posted a lot of stuff to the thread overnight.
Awwww, I'll reply to your post.
I feel like if you can read a woman's signs of interest, and they're coming in loud and clear, you shouldn't lead her on. Even though, I get what you're saying about the conversation suffering. It's up to you to set the tone if you aren't into her, because when you lead a girl on like that, obviously you get 20 page love confessions.
Trying to force your SO to change religions or abandon a religion they find fulfilling is a huge dick move
It's basically saying, "I know this is important to you and everything but I don't personally like it and I want to remake you in my own image of what you should be, according to me"
Well, that might be true for some people... But for someone who actually believes that their religion is the objectively correct view of reality, it makes complete sense that they would want their SO to convert to their beliefs. After all, if you're an evangelical Christian and you fall in love with an atheist, you believe that the atheist - who is not saved - has a very high chance of going to hell forever and ever. If you actually love that person, you would want to save them from eternal torment in a lake of fire forever and ever. So even if the conversion attempts are awkward or stressful, it would be worth it if you could save your love from eternal torture.
Of course, that's all contingent upon you actually believing your own religion. Many people just "believe" half-heartedly because that's just what their family's religion is. In that case, yeah, it's a bit silly.
Trying to force your SO to change religions or abandon a religion they find fulfilling is a huge dick move
It's basically saying, "I know this is important to you and everything but I don't personally like it and I want to remake you in my own image of what you should be, according to me"
Well, that might be true for some people... But for someone who actually believes that their religion is the objectively correct view of reality, it makes complete sense that they would want their SO to convert to their beliefs. After all, if you're an evangelical Christian and you fall in love with an atheist, you believe that the atheist - who is not saved - has a very high chance of going to hell forever and ever. If you actually love that person, you would want to save them from eternal torment in a lake of fire forever and ever. So even if the conversion attempts are awkward or stressful, it would be worth it if you could save your love from eternal torture.
Of course, that's all contingent upon you actually believing your own religion. Many people just "believe" half-heartedly because that's just what their family's religion is. In that case, yeah, it's a bit silly.
Most conversion-based religions discourage their members from getting in relationships with people who have conflicting views exactly for this reason.
Also, we're talking about an atheist trying to "convert" a moderately observant Jew into being an atheist (like him) for no good reason. At the very best he's being an obnoxious twat (he knew she was religious when he got in the relationship, after all), at the worst he's trying to mold her belief structure so she'll be easier for him to control. Trying to force someone to change deeply-held beliefs, like religion, to fit their own purposes is textbook domestic abuse behavior.
Trying to force your SO to change religions or abandon a religion they find fulfilling is a huge dick move
It's basically saying, "I know this is important to you and everything but I don't personally like it and I want to remake you in my own image of what you should be, according to me"
Well, that might be true for some people... But for someone who actually believes that their religion is the objectively correct view of reality, it makes complete sense that they would want their SO to convert to their beliefs. After all, if you're an evangelical Christian and you fall in love with an atheist, you believe that the atheist - who is not saved - has a very high chance of going to hell forever and ever. If you actually love that person, you would want to save them from eternal torment in a lake of fire forever and ever. So even if the conversion attempts are awkward or stressful, it would be worth it if you could save your love from eternal torture.
Of course, that's all contingent upon you actually believing your own religion. Many people just "believe" half-heartedly because that's just what their family's religion is. In that case, yeah, it's a bit silly.
Yeah, but atheists don't believe their partners are going to go to hell.
So other than examples I mentioned - like where it's detrimental to your kid's education etc. - there's no serious reason for an atheist to be trying to convert their partner like that.
Trying to force your SO to change religions or abandon a religion they find fulfilling is a huge dick move
It's basically saying, "I know this is important to you and everything but I don't personally like it and I want to remake you in my own image of what you should be, according to me"
Well, that might be true for some people... But for someone who actually believes that their religion is the objectively correct view of reality, it makes complete sense that they would want their SO to convert to their beliefs. After all, if you're an evangelical Christian and you fall in love with an atheist, you believe that the atheist - who is not saved - has a very high chance of going to hell forever and ever. If you actually love that person, you would want to save them from eternal torment in a lake of fire forever and ever. So even if the conversion attempts are awkward or stressful, it would be worth it if you could save your love from eternal torture.
Of course, that's all contingent upon you actually believing your own religion. Many people just "believe" half-heartedly because that's just what their family's religion is. In that case, yeah, it's a bit silly.
Most conversion-based religions discourage their members from getting in relationships with people who have conflicting views exactly for this reason.
Also, we're talking about an atheist trying to "convert" a moderately observant Jew into being an atheist (like him) for no good reason. At the very best he's being an obnoxious twat (he knew she was religious when he got in the relationship, after all), at the worst he's trying to mold her belief structure so she'll be easier for him to control. Trying to force someone to change deeply-held beliefs, like religion, to fit their own purposes is textbook domestic abuse behavior.
That's my bad for not reading the entire thread. Sorry!
My girlfriend's a lapsed Catholic and I'm an agnostic atheist or "soft atheist." She doesn't go to church or try to convert me or anything. It's a dynamic that works pretty well, as long as we don't talk about beliefs. I actually don't really mind when she explains to me her religion (I find it fairly interesting), but she always gets REALLY pissed off when I try to expound on mine. She flipped a shit on me and accused me of "forcing my beliefs" on her when I tried to explain why I don't believe in heaven or hell— probably because she doesn't like hearing someone logically deconstructing the idea of paradisal afterlife when she believes her grandfathers are waiting for her up there. Sometimes I wish she's find a better belief system, though, because right now she's not-so-secretly convinced that she's going to hell for all the moral/grave sins she's committed in life.
The only thing I'm worried about is if we ever get married and have kids. There's no fucking way I'm having a Catholic ceremony—my parents are Jews, and I think it's all a bunch of nonsense anyway—and she's pretty adamant on raising her kids Catholic. Why the fuck would I want my kids beating themselves up over every little thing the church defines as a sin, or believing in a system that tells them that they're filthy creatures who need to be saved? No disrespect to the girlfriend or any Catholics on the board, but I'd want my kids to have the choice before entering into such a potentially-masochistic belief system.
I guess what I'm getting at is that there is a pretty serious and compelling reason for an atheist to try to "convert" the partner—even a moderately observant one, like my girlfriend— or at least get her to make her beliefs personal and not force them on future kids. A lot of atheists wish people "saved" from their own hurtful belief systems, and while most of us can respect an individual's right to religion, things can get iffy when marriage or children are thrown into the mix.
(Maybe this is getting off-topic enough to warrant a new thread. Something on mixed-religion relationships, maybe?)
edit: Not that I'm trying to defend celandine's boyfriend's behavior, that guy's just being a dick from the sound of it.
My girlfriend's a lapsed Catholic and I'm an agnostic atheist or "soft atheist." She doesn't go to church or try to convert me or anything. It's a dynamic that works pretty well, as long as we don't talk about beliefs. I actually don't really mind when she explains to me her religion (I find it fairly interesting), but she always gets REALLY pissed off when I try to expound on mine. She flipped a shit on me and accused me of "forcing my beliefs" on her when I tried to explain why I don't believe in heaven or hell— probably because she doesn't like hearing someone logically deconstructing the idea of paradisal afterlife when she believes her grandfathers are waiting for her up there. Sometimes I wish she's find a better belief system, though, because right now she's not-so-secretly convinced that she's going to hell for all the moral/grave sins she's committed in life.
The only thing I'm worried about is if we ever get married and have kids. There's no fucking way I'm having a Catholic ceremony—my parents are Jews, and I think it's all a bunch of nonsense anyway—and she's pretty adamant on raising her kids Catholic. Why the fuck would I want my kids beating themselves up over every little thing the church defines as a sin, or believing in a system that tells them that they're filthy creatures who need to be saved? No disrespect to the girlfriend or any Catholics on the board, but I'd want my kids to have the choice before entering into such a potentially-masochistic belief system.
I guess what I'm getting at is that there is a pretty serious and compelling reason for an atheist to try to "convert" the partner—even a moderately observant one, like my girlfriend— or at least get her to make her beliefs personal and not force them on future kids. A lot of atheists wish people "saved" from their own hurtful belief systems, and while most of us can respect an individual's right to religion, things can get iffy when marriage or children are thrown into the mix.
(Maybe this is getting off-topic enough to warrant a new thread. Something on mixed-religion relationships, maybe?)
Uh, maybe because Catholics don't think like that. I grew up in a Irish-Catholic household, went to church, was an altar boy, and sent to Catholic Primary and High Schools. It was boring and repetitive, but nothing worse. Even before I became an atheist I wasn't wrapped in self-loathing, whipping myself every time I looked down a girl's blouse. So whilst I'd rather they weren't, I wouldn't have a cow if my kids were given a "moderately observant" upbringing.
My girlfriend's a lapsed Catholic and I'm an agnostic atheist or "soft atheist." She doesn't go to church or try to convert me or anything. It's a dynamic that works pretty well, as long as we don't talk about beliefs. I actually don't really mind when she explains to me her religion (I find it fairly interesting), but she always gets REALLY pissed off when I try to expound on mine. She flipped a shit on me and accused me of "forcing my beliefs" on her when I tried to explain why I don't believe in heaven or hell— probably because she doesn't like hearing someone logically deconstructing the idea of paradisal afterlife when she believes her grandfathers are waiting for her up there. Sometimes I wish she's find a better belief system, though, because right now she's not-so-secretly convinced that she's going to hell for all the moral/grave sins she's committed in life.
The only thing I'm worried about is if we ever get married and have kids. There's no fucking way I'm having a Catholic ceremony—my parents are Jews, and I think it's all a bunch of nonsense anyway—and she's pretty adamant on raising her kids Catholic. Why the fuck would I want my kids beating themselves up over every little thing the church defines as a sin, or believing in a system that tells them that they're filthy creatures who need to be saved? No disrespect to the girlfriend or any Catholics on the board, but I'd want my kids to have the choice before entering into such a potentially-masochistic belief system.
I guess what I'm getting at is that there is a pretty serious and compelling reason for an atheist to try to "convert" the partner—even a moderately observant one, like my girlfriend— or at least get her to make her beliefs personal and not force them on future kids. A lot of atheists wish people "saved" from their own hurtful belief systems, and while most of us can respect an individual's right to religion, things can get iffy when marriage or children are thrown into the mix.
(Maybe this is getting off-topic enough to warrant a new thread. Something on mixed-religion relationships, maybe?)
edit: Not that I'm trying to defend celandine's boyfriend's behavior, that guy's just being a dick from the sound of it.
I'm not sure you're seeing it from her point of view, though. You only see the negative aspects of the religion and don't see the reason she does it, and while it may be difficult for you, as an outsider and a nonbeliever, to understand, people don't just choose to be religious because they're afraid not to. It's much more complex than that.
EDIT: For instance, most people like to feel that their own families will be a continuation of what came before them. Since her family was a Catholic and she had a Catholic childhood and upbringing, she wants her own children to have similar experiences to her own (and her parents, and grandparents...). It's a kind of bond that forms that can be important even entirely independent of the religious and spiritual aspect. She may feel that, in not raising her children as Catholic, she would be driving a wedge between her own family, and you all and your children. She may feel that her own family would be disappointed in her and take raising her children out of the church as a kind of rejection. We could speculate on reasons all day, but suffice to say that religious transmission has a lot more going on than just "not going to hell".
And, as I mentioned in an earlier post - really, you knew when you got into this (serious) relationship that she was religious and this would eventually come up. If you try to change her beliefs you're trying to change one of the most fundamental aspects of her personality to fit your own beliefs and desires. I'm not saying you're doing this selfishly, like I think celandine's BF is - actually, just the opposite.
But you're still doing it, and the effects could be very harmful down the road even though your intentions were entirely good. What are you going to do fifteen years from now when you find out that, despite what you may have thought, she still feels the same way she used only now she resents you for trying to do something she sees as so hurtful?
It's a complicated topic, obviously. Definitely not saying you should break up with her but you're going to need to compromise somehow on it or things are gonna get really bad.
(I would be willing/interested in making this a new topic, but I'm afraid it would just be another lolreligion thread after ten pages, that's the way it usually goes)
(I would be willing to make this a new topic, but I'm afraid people would just be another lolreligion thread after ten pages, that's the way it usually goes)
I was convinced this would turn into a continuation of the Pick-up artists thread.
I don't really have any problems with the Catholic faith (well, aside from the Vatican's politics anyway), and appreciate that people have complicated, individual reasons for being religious. I'd never want to force my girlfriend to change her belief system.
The big problem is that her beliefs and mine—even in their "moderate" forms—engender pretty strong feelings when it comes to children. I don't want my kids brought up in any religion. I want them brought up in the morals we both believe, and taught the ideals we want them taught. When they're old enough, they can decide for themselves whether or not they want to enter into any particular religion (and at that point I'd want to expose them to many different religions, so that they can follow the creed that truly speaks to them). She, on the other hand, thinks that morals and religion go hand in hand, and that it's her moral responsibility to make sure her children are raised Catholic (she's said as much in conversations we've had on the topic). That bothers me, because while plenty of Catholics turn out OK and get positive experiences from their faith, plenty don't. I want religion to be a choice, not an imperative—not the sort of thing where my kid will say "it's the only thing I've ever known since birth, I couldn't ever believe anything else, you can't teach an old dog new tricks." Not to insult celandine, but it's exactly her kind of beliefs that I fear— the sort of religiosity so deeply ingrained that it actually becomes mentally painful and morally challenging to seriously consider other worldviews.
It's a problem that's a long way off—neither of us plans on getting married or having kids in the next 5 years—but I can already tell that it's going to be a pretty nasty issue when it pops up.
I don't really have any problems with the Catholic faith (well, aside from the Vatican's politics anyway), and appreciate that people have complicated, individual reasons for being religious. I'd never want to force my girlfriend to change her belief system.
The big problem is that her beliefs and mine—even in their "moderate" forms—engender pretty strong feelings when it comes to children. I don't want my kids brought up in any religion. I want them brought up in the morals we both believe, and taught the ideals we want them taught. When they're old enough, they can decide for themselves whether or not they want to enter into any particular religion (and at that point I'd want to expose them to many different religions, so that they can follow the creed that truly speaks to them). She, on the other hand, thinks that morals and religion go hand in hand, and that it's her moral responsibility to make sure her children are raised Catholic (she's said as much in conversations we've had on the topic). That bothers me, because while plenty of Catholics turn out OK and get positive experiences from their faith, plenty don't. I want religion to be a choice, not an imperative—not the sort of thing where my kid will say "it's the only thing I've ever known since birth, I couldn't ever believe anything else, you can't teach an old dog new tricks." Not to insult celandine, but it's exactly her kind of beliefs that I fear— the sort of religiosity so deeply ingrained that it actually becomes mentally painful and morally challenging to seriously consider other worldviews.
It's a problem that's a long way off—neither of us plans on getting married or having kids in the next 5 years—but I can already tell that it's going to be a pretty nasty issue when it pops up.
I think the problem with Celandine is that A: The guy seems to be very forceful in changing her beliefs and B: He's sounds like a total cockbag. I mean wouldn't you find Athesism unappealing when the guy pushing it on you is an amoral controlling layabout?
Also where do you live Chopper? Because I can understand your position on this if your definition of "moderate" is by a different set of standards.
I don't really have any problems with the Catholic faith (well, aside from the Vatican's politics anyway), and appreciate that people have complicated, individual reasons for being religious. I'd never want to force my girlfriend to change her belief system.
The big problem is that her beliefs and mine—even in their "moderate" forms—engender pretty strong feelings when it comes to children. I don't want my kids brought up in any religion. I want them brought up in the morals we both believe, and taught the ideals we want them taught. When they're old enough, they can decide for themselves whether or not they want to enter into any particular religion (and at that point I'd want to expose them to many different religions, so that they can follow the creed that truly speaks to them). She, on the other hand, thinks that morals and religion go hand in hand, and that it's her moral responsibility to make sure her children are raised Catholic (she's said as much in conversations we've had on the topic). That bothers me, because while plenty of Catholics turn out OK and get positive experiences from their faith, plenty don't. I want religion to be a choice, not an imperative—not the sort of thing where my kid will say "it's the only thing I've ever known since birth, I couldn't ever believe anything else, you can't teach an old dog new tricks." Not to insult celandine, but it's exactly her kind of beliefs that I fear— the sort of religiosity so deeply ingrained that it actually becomes mentally painful and morally challenging to seriously consider other worldviews.
It's a problem that's a long way off—neither of us plans on getting married or having kids in the next 5 years—but I can already tell that it's going to be a pretty nasty issue when it pops up.
I mean, I see your point but really what it comes down to is this:
You believe (x) and want your potential children brought up (x) way.
GF believes (y) and wants your potential children brought up (y) way.
x =/= y
And it sounds like you're both old and mature enough that your minds are probably made up about it. I wish you the best of luck and I hope it works out for you, but as you've already realized this is probably going to be a pretty ugly situation unless someone is willing to compromise.
You want to teach your kids to have good morals and be good people
She wants to teach your kids to believe in God because people who believe in God have morals and therefore are good people
Forcing them to do it one way seems problematic as opposed to at least letting them choose. Then again, I feel being pro-choice in any matter is better than the alternative, because a choice is just that- a choice. You can choose to go one way or to go another way.
Don't you think it's an issue when you say something like "My SO is really great except when it comes to religion. Religion, or lack thereof, is an important part of both of our lives, but we never really discuss it." I thought you were supposed to be able to discuss these sorts of things with your partner, and not leave it for the future version of yourself to argue about, when you've wasted years of your lives feeling you'd be compatible when you aren't
You want to teach your kids to have good morals and be good people
She wants to teach your kids to believe in God because people who believe in God have morals and therefore are good people
Forcing them to do it one way seems problematic as opposed to at least letting them choose. Then again, I feel being pro-choice in any matter is better than the alternative, because a choice is just that- a choice. You can choose to go one way or to go another way.
Except that you're not raising your kids as blank slates by raising them in an atheist manner. You are giving them a bias towards atheism, in the same way raising them in religion X gives them a bias towards religion X.
Also, provided they're not being raised in a fanatically-strict environment, they will have as much the option to choose either way. You can choose to give up the religion you were raised with and become an atheist just as easily as you can choose to give up the atheism you were raised with and become religious.
Don't you think it's an issue when you say something like "My SO is really great except when it comes to religion. Religion, or lack thereof, is an important part of both of our lives, but we never really discuss it." I thought you were supposed to be able to discuss these sorts of things with your partner, and not leave it for the future version of yourself to argue about, when you've wasted years of your lives feeling you'd be compatible when you aren't
It's a tough situation you've got with the Catholic wife -- I'm starting to realize that a lot of problems that don't seem bad in a relationship would be catastrophic if marriage and kids were involved. You could always do the sort of informal arrangement that was more common in the past (say, my 1950's grandparents): mom takes the kids to Sunday school, but they can see that Dad never goes to church, thinks that organized religion is hogwash, and seems to be a decent person anyway.
As for my own bf, I do think he was being a dick, though I'm going to try and make lemonade from the lemons and use this as an opportunity to examine my own faith critically.
The thing is, he's a bit intolerant, despite all his well-meaning liberal politics. Like, if we go into a normal, Bud Lite-selling corner bar, he'll make all kinds of remarks under his breath about how weird it is to visit "Middle America." There's also some weirdness about non-white neighborhoods. He's simply not very understanding about different kinds of people, whether that be class or background or religion -- he's so exclusively a product of his Upper West Side upbringing that he isn't very good at putting himself in anybody else's shoes. (Partly why he didn't get along with my parents -- he was always inadvertently offending them because he isn't very good at picking up people's feelings.) He was just baffled that anyone worth taking seriously might believe in a religion. And that, I think, is insulting.
celandine, casting a critical objective eye on your views, be them religious or otherwise, is a very good thing. But you can do that without having to endure that guy as your boyfriend. Honestly, the more you describe him, the more he sounds like a horrible person, and the more I wonder why you're dating him.
It's a tough situation you've got with the Catholic wife -- I'm starting to realize that a lot of problems that don't seem bad in a relationship would be catastrophic if marriage and kids were involved. You could always do the sort of informal arrangement that was more common in the past (say, my 1950's grandparents): mom takes the kids to Sunday school, but they can see that Dad never goes to church, thinks that organized religion is hogwash, and seems to be a decent person anyway.
As for my own bf, I do think he was being a dick, though I'm going to try and make lemonade from the lemons and use this as an opportunity to examine my own faith critically.
The thing is, he's a bit intolerant, despite all his well-meaning liberal politics. Like, if we go into a normal, Bud Lite-selling corner bar, he'll make all kinds of remarks under his breath about how weird it is to visit "Middle America." There's also some weirdness about non-white neighborhoods. He's simply not very understanding about different kinds of people, whether that be class or background or religion -- he's so exclusively a product of his Upper West Side upbringing that he isn't very good at putting himself in anybody else's shoes. (Partly why he didn't get along with my parents -- he was always inadvertently offending them because he isn't very good at picking up people's feelings.) He was just baffled that anyone worth taking seriously might believe in a religion. And that, I think, is insulting.
Wow. Damn. This dude is the gift that keeps on giving.
I mean, no offense toward you intended but it sounds like this dude is one the most pure and undiluted assholes I've ever heard of. Not really Ted Bundy-like or whatever but just like someone took the Prick-o-meter (tm) and cranked it up to twelve.
I also don't really see how well-meaning his politics can be if he's openly disparaging toward a) all white people of lower social class than his own upper-upper-upper-class ass and b) all minorities.
My girlfriend's a lapsed Catholic and I'm an agnostic atheist or "soft atheist." She doesn't go to church or try to convert me or anything. It's a dynamic that works pretty well, as long as we don't talk about beliefs. I actually don't really mind when she explains to me her religion (I find it fairly interesting), but she always gets REALLY pissed off when I try to expound on mine. She flipped a shit on me and accused me of "forcing my beliefs" on her when I tried to explain why I don't believe in heaven or hell— probably because she doesn't like hearing someone logically deconstructing the idea of paradisal afterlife when she believes her grandfathers are waiting for her up there. Sometimes I wish she's find a better belief system, though, because right now she's not-so-secretly convinced that she's going to hell for all the moral/grave sins she's committed in life.
The only thing I'm worried about is if we ever get married and have kids. There's no fucking way I'm having a Catholic ceremony—my parents are Jews, and I think it's all a bunch of nonsense anyway—and she's pretty adamant on raising her kids Catholic. Why the fuck would I want my kids beating themselves up over every little thing the church defines as a sin, or believing in a system that tells them that they're filthy creatures who need to be saved? No disrespect to the girlfriend or any Catholics on the board, but I'd want my kids to have the choice before entering into such a potentially-masochistic belief system.
I guess what I'm getting at is that there is a pretty serious and compelling reason for an atheist to try to "convert" the partner—even a moderately observant one, like my girlfriend— or at least get her to make her beliefs personal and not force them on future kids. A lot of atheists wish people "saved" from their own hurtful belief systems, and while most of us can respect an individual's right to religion, things can get iffy when marriage or children are thrown into the mix.
(Maybe this is getting off-topic enough to warrant a new thread. Something on mixed-religion relationships, maybe?)
Uh, maybe because Catholics don't think like that. I grew up in a Irish-Catholic household, went to church, was an altar boy, and sent to Catholic Primary and High Schools. It was boring and repetitive, but nothing worse. Even before I became an atheist I wasn't wrapped in self-loathing, whipping myself every time I looked down a girl's blouse. So whilst I'd rather they weren't, I wouldn't have a cow if my kids were given a "moderately observant" upbringing.
It's tough to say "maybe because Catholics don't think that" - because it implies that you're saying all Catholics don't think that. That just isn't true, because if you actually follow and believe the teachings of the Church - presumably, that's what your Catholic schools want you to do - then you should be constantly worrying about sins. I mean, you do understand that Catholicism teaches that you will tortured in Hell forever and ever, for all eternity without end or a break, without any hope of salvation if you commit a mortal sin without repenting of it, right? That's some serious fucking shit. They basically tell you that if you do something bad, you are at serious risk of being thrown in a dark hole for the entirety of your existence (which, by the way, will never end) where you will be subject to torture and fire and pain for all time, forever, and you'll always be there - you'll never be allowed to leave. And you're at serious risk of this eternal damnation with every grave sin - masturbation, homosexuality, abortion, sloth, lust, pride, envy, etc etc etc etc.
It is cruel to teach a child that.
Just because you apparently did not take that threat seriously doesn't mean you ought to send your children to a school that will encourage that belief system, or raise them in an enviornment where that belief system will be taught. Because some kids, like myself, do take them seriously - and that can cause harm.
In the interest of moving this thread back on topic I've decided to relate the most annoying experience ever
So first comes the phone call. I never gave this girl my nu,mber nor did I know she existed until that moment. She says I HAVE to take her to prom since she bought a dress and "everything". I calmly explained that would be impossible since Lone wolfs don't mingle with the pack( I may have said "I-I'm s-s-sorry but um I'm not um interested" you'll never prove it though). Despite her protests I assured her it was for the best and we hung up.
It doesn't end though.
So in class the next day the Nigerian exchange student comes up. She hands me a note then goes to her seat before class starts.
Why I opened it I'll never know. It said:
" My friend Shawnee wants you to take her to Prom. Her boyfriend said it was okay.
Why won't you?"
I'm a bit stunned at that point so after class I talk to her about it. After some discussion it becomes apparent that by process of elimination I am one of the 6-7 available boys for Prom. The others have said no. I am apparently the last hope.
Normally I probably would have relented but I was pretty insulted that out of seven guys I was last choice. I told her " I'm not interested. Tell her I'm sorry though." and left for whatever class was next.
Then the girl calls again afterschool.
She's pretty mad this time. Saying that since she bought her dress and "everything"( I never found out what "everything" was) if I wont take her I should pay her back. You know because we totally committed to going to the prom years ago in a blood pact or something.
I was pretty mad at this point. I said the following" Listen. I am not interested.
AT. ALL. I've never met you before. I still haven't met you. Prom costs what 200 bucks? I could buy a giant bag of Cocaine( I don't know why I used this as an example) for 200 bucks and have a much better time than going with a girl who wants to use me as a human ticket !"
She hung up.
I never heard from her again.
King Riptor on
I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
Well his first paragraph is true. If I had to go through that shit I'd be pretty fucking biased too.
Having been to a catholic school I can say his experience is not universal. I dare say it's almost exclusive.
Depends on the school obviously, and back to what Melk was saying, the morals of the particular person doing the teaching. You're right in that there are Catholics who preach what Melk is saying and others who are more moderate. And there are others who are Catholic in name only.
Prom costs what 200 bucks? I could buy a giant bag of Cocaine( I don't know why I used this as an example) for 200 bucks and have a much better time than going with a girl who wants to use me as a human ticket !"
She hung up.
In the interest of moving this thread back on topic I've decided to relate the most annoying experience ever
So first comes the phone call. I never gave this girl my nu,mber nor did I know she existed until that moment. She says I HAVE to take her to prom since she bought a dress and "everything". I calmly explained that would be impossible since Lone wolfs don't mingle with the pack( I may have said "I-I'm s-s-sorry but um I'm not um interested" you'll never prove it though). Despite her protests I assured her it was for the best and we hung up.
It doesn't end though.
So in class the next day the Nigerian exchange student comes up. She hands me a note then goes to her seat before class starts.
Why I opened it I'll never know. It said:
" My friend Shawnee wants you to take her to Prom. Her boyfriend said it was okay.
Why won't you?"
I'm a bit stunned at that point so after class I talk to her about it. After some discussion it becomes apparent that by process of elimination I am one of the 6-7 available boys for Prom. The others have said no. I am apparently the last hope.
Normally I probably would have relented but I was pretty insulted that out of seven guys I was last choice. I told her " I'm not interested. Tell her I'm sorry though." and left for whatever class was next.
Then the girl calls again afterschool.
She's pretty mad this time. Saying that since she bought her dress and "everything"( I never found out what "everything" was) if I wont take her I should pay her back. You know because we totally committed to going to the prom years ago in a blood pact or something.
I was pretty mad at this point. I said the following" Listen. I am not interested.
AT. ALL. I've never met you before. I still haven't met you. Prom costs what 200 bucks? I could buy a giant bag of Cocaine( I don't know why I used this as an example) for 200 bucks and have a much better time than going with a girl who wants to use me as a human ticket !"
She hung up.
I never heard from her again.
Oh, boy, high school. Just wait it out, man.
I sympathize a little with Prom Dress Girl (though she has zero awareness of what's socially appropriate and not much consideration for you.) I remember being seventeen -- nobody was going to ask me to prom, so I asked a few guys, with increasing desperation, and struck out with all of them. Not having a date to prom feels like total failure. Then, of course, life goes on.
Well his first paragraph is true. If I had to go through that shit I'd be pretty fucking biased too.
Where does it say he went through it? All I see is a lecture on what 'real' Catholics believe/do, because obviously being raised catholic, going to a catholic school, being an assistant to the clergy until my late teens and having almost-universally Catholic friends until College doesn't give me a good perspective on Catholics.
In the interest of moving this thread back on topic I've decided to relate the most annoying experience ever
So first comes the phone call. I never gave this girl my nu,mber nor did I know she existed until that moment. She says I HAVE to take her to prom since she bought a dress and "everything". I calmly explained that would be impossible since Lone wolfs don't mingle with the pack( I may have said "I-I'm s-s-sorry but um I'm not um interested" you'll never prove it though). Despite her protests I assured her it was for the best and we hung up.
It doesn't end though.
So in class the next day the Nigerian exchange student comes up. She hands me a note then goes to her seat before class starts.
Why I opened it I'll never know. It said:
" My friend Shawnee wants you to take her to Prom. Her boyfriend said it was okay.
Why won't you?"
I'm a bit stunned at that point so after class I talk to her about it. After some discussion it becomes apparent that by process of elimination I am one of the 6-7 available boys for Prom. The others have said no. I am apparently the last hope.
Normally I probably would have relented but I was pretty insulted that out of seven guys I was last choice. I told her " I'm not interested. Tell her I'm sorry though." and left for whatever class was next.
Then the girl calls again afterschool.
She's pretty mad this time. Saying that since she bought her dress and "everything"( I never found out what "everything" was) if I wont take her I should pay her back. You know because we totally committed to going to the prom years ago in a blood pact or something.
I was pretty mad at this point. I said the following" Listen. I am not interested.
AT. ALL. I've never met you before. I still haven't met you. Prom costs what 200 bucks? I could buy a giant bag of Cocaine( I don't know why I used this as an example) for 200 bucks and have a much better time than going with a girl who wants to use me as a human ticket !"
She hung up.
I never heard from her again.
Oh, boy, high school. Just wait it out, man.
I sympathize a little with Prom Dress Girl (though she has zero awareness of what's socially appropriate and not much consideration for you.) I remember being seventeen -- nobody was going to ask me to prom, so I asked a few guys, with increasing desperation, and struck out with all of them. Not having a date to prom feels like total failure. Then, of course, life goes on.
But yeah, that's quite a meltdown.
I'm 26. That was the extent of my high school dating career. Loving Transformers and anime did nothing to increase my social standing.
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Well his first paragraph is true. If I had to go through that shit I'd be pretty fucking biased too.
Having been to a catholic school I can say his experience is not universal. I dare say it's almost exclusive.
Hell and mortal sin are clear Catholic teachings that you probably would have been taught at a Catholic school. You apparently did not take them seriously. That's fine. I guess you were either smarter than me as a child, or just apathetic.
In the interest of moving this thread back on topic I've decided to relate the most annoying experience ever
So first comes the phone call. I never gave this girl my nu,mber nor did I know she existed until that moment. She says I HAVE to take her to prom since she bought a dress and "everything". I calmly explained that would be impossible since Lone wolfs don't mingle with the pack( I may have said "I-I'm s-s-sorry but um I'm not um interested" you'll never prove it though). Despite her protests I assured her it was for the best and we hung up.
It doesn't end though.
So in class the next day the Nigerian exchange student comes up. She hands me a note then goes to her seat before class starts.
Why I opened it I'll never know. It said:
" My friend Shawnee wants you to take her to Prom. Her boyfriend said it was okay.
Why won't you?"
I'm a bit stunned at that point so after class I talk to her about it. After some discussion it becomes apparent that by process of elimination I am one of the 6-7 available boys for Prom. The others have said no. I am apparently the last hope.
Normally I probably would have relented but I was pretty insulted that out of seven guys I was last choice. I told her " I'm not interested. Tell her I'm sorry though." and left for whatever class was next.
Then the girl calls again afterschool.
She's pretty mad this time. Saying that since she bought her dress and "everything"( I never found out what "everything" was) if I wont take her I should pay her back. You know because we totally committed to going to the prom years ago in a blood pact or something.
I was pretty mad at this point. I said the following" Listen. I am not interested.
AT. ALL. I've never met you before. I still haven't met you. Prom costs what 200 bucks? I could buy a giant bag of Cocaine( I don't know why I used this as an example) for 200 bucks and have a much better time than going with a girl who wants to use me as a human ticket !"
She hung up.
I never heard from her again.
Oh, boy, high school. Just wait it out, man.
I sympathize a little with Prom Dress Girl (though she has zero awareness of what's socially appropriate and not much consideration for you.) I remember being seventeen -- nobody was going to ask me to prom, so I asked a few guys, with increasing desperation, and struck out with all of them. Not having a date to prom feels like total failure. Then, of course, life goes on.
But yeah, that's quite a meltdown.
I'm 26. That was the extent of my high school dating career. Loving Transformers and anime did nothing to increase my social standing.
Oddly, loving transformers and anime did wonders for my social standing at university.
Just not with the ladies.
Also since you guys are talking about bad prom experiences and this is the "god my ex was horrible" thread...
Are you ready?
It's pretty bad.
I broke up with my girlfriend right before I was supposed to take her to prom night
Well his first paragraph is true. If I had to go through that shit I'd be pretty fucking biased too.
Where does it say he went through it? All I see is a lecture on what 'real' Catholics believe/do, because obviously being raised catholic, going to a catholic school, being an assistant to the clergy until my late teens and having almost-universally Catholic friends until College doesn't give me a good perspective on Catholics.
My girlfriend's a lapsed Catholic and I'm an agnostic atheist or "soft atheist." She doesn't go to church or try to convert me or anything. It's a dynamic that works pretty well, as long as we don't talk about beliefs. I actually don't really mind when she explains to me her religion (I find it fairly interesting), but she always gets REALLY pissed off when I try to expound on mine. She flipped a shit on me and accused me of "forcing my beliefs" on her when I tried to explain why I don't believe in heaven or hell— probably because she doesn't like hearing someone logically deconstructing the idea of paradisal afterlife when she believes her grandfathers are waiting for her up there. Sometimes I wish she's find a better belief system, though, because right now she's not-so-secretly convinced that she's going to hell for all the moral/grave sins she's committed in life.
The only thing I'm worried about is if we ever get married and have kids. There's no fucking way I'm having a Catholic ceremony—my parents are Jews, and I think it's all a bunch of nonsense anyway—and she's pretty adamant on raising her kids Catholic. Why the fuck would I want my kids beating themselves up over every little thing the church defines as a sin, or believing in a system that tells them that they're filthy creatures who need to be saved? No disrespect to the girlfriend or any Catholics on the board, but I'd want my kids to have the choice before entering into such a potentially-masochistic belief system.
I guess what I'm getting at is that there is a pretty serious and compelling reason for an atheist to try to "convert" the partner—even a moderately observant one, like my girlfriend— or at least get her to make her beliefs personal and not force them on future kids. A lot of atheists wish people "saved" from their own hurtful belief systems, and while most of us can respect an individual's right to religion, things can get iffy when marriage or children are thrown into the mix.
(Maybe this is getting off-topic enough to warrant a new thread. Something on mixed-religion relationships, maybe?)
Uh, maybe because Catholics don't think like that. I grew up in a Irish-Catholic household, went to church, was an altar boy, and sent to Catholic Primary and High Schools. It was boring and repetitive, but nothing worse. Even before I became an atheist I wasn't wrapped in self-loathing, whipping myself every time I looked down a girl's blouse. So whilst I'd rather they weren't, I wouldn't have a cow if my kids were given a "moderately observant" upbringing.
It's tough to say "maybe because Catholics don't think that" - because it implies that you're saying all Catholics don't think that. That just isn't true, because if you actually follow and believe the teachings of the Church - presumably, that's what your Catholic schools want you to do - then you should be constantly worrying about sins. I mean, you do understand that Catholicism teaches that you will tortured in Hell forever and ever, for all eternity without end or a break, without any hope of salvation if you commit a mortal sin without repenting of it, right? That's some serious fucking shit. They basically tell you that if you do something bad, you are at serious risk of being thrown in a dark hole for the entirety of your existence (which, by the way, will never end) where you will be subject to torture and fire and pain for all time, forever, and you'll always be there - you'll never be allowed to leave. And you're at serious risk of this eternal damnation with every grave sin - masturbation, homosexuality, abortion, sloth, lust, pride, envy, etc etc etc etc.
It is cruel to teach a child that.
Just because you apparently did not take that threat seriously doesn't mean you ought to send your children to a school that will encourage that belief system, or raise them in an enviornment where that belief system will be taught. Because some kids, like myself, do take them seriously - and that can cause harm.
As far as my post being a 'lecture' of what "real" Catholics believe, I was simply repeating the teachings of the Church. Look it up (links below). Hell and mortal sin are things taught to every child who goes into Sunday School, High School Youth Group, or adult who takes Adult RCIA, any college student who takes a Catholic studies class, or any kid who attends a Catholic elementary school.
And here's my citation, straight from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Hell and mortal sin
Well his first paragraph is true. If I had to go through that shit I'd be pretty fucking biased too.
Where does it say he went through it? All I see is a lecture on what 'real' Catholics believe/do, because obviously being raised catholic, going to a catholic school, being an assistant to the clergy until my late teens and having almost-universally Catholic friends until College doesn't give me a good perspective on Catholics.
My girlfriend's a lapsed Catholic and I'm an agnostic atheist or "soft atheist." She doesn't go to church or try to convert me or anything. It's a dynamic that works pretty well, as long as we don't talk about beliefs. I actually don't really mind when she explains to me her religion (I find it fairly interesting), but she always gets REALLY pissed off when I try to expound on mine. She flipped a shit on me and accused me of "forcing my beliefs" on her when I tried to explain why I don't believe in heaven or hell— probably because she doesn't like hearing someone logically deconstructing the idea of paradisal afterlife when she believes her grandfathers are waiting for her up there. Sometimes I wish she's find a better belief system, though, because right now she's not-so-secretly convinced that she's going to hell for all the moral/grave sins she's committed in life.
The only thing I'm worried about is if we ever get married and have kids. There's no fucking way I'm having a Catholic ceremony—my parents are Jews, and I think it's all a bunch of nonsense anyway—and she's pretty adamant on raising her kids Catholic. Why the fuck would I want my kids beating themselves up over every little thing the church defines as a sin, or believing in a system that tells them that they're filthy creatures who need to be saved? No disrespect to the girlfriend or any Catholics on the board, but I'd want my kids to have the choice before entering into such a potentially-masochistic belief system.
I guess what I'm getting at is that there is a pretty serious and compelling reason for an atheist to try to "convert" the partner—even a moderately observant one, like my girlfriend— or at least get her to make her beliefs personal and not force them on future kids. A lot of atheists wish people "saved" from their own hurtful belief systems, and while most of us can respect an individual's right to religion, things can get iffy when marriage or children are thrown into the mix.
(Maybe this is getting off-topic enough to warrant a new thread. Something on mixed-religion relationships, maybe?)
Uh, maybe because Catholics don't think like that. I grew up in a Irish-Catholic household, went to church, was an altar boy, and sent to Catholic Primary and High Schools. It was boring and repetitive, but nothing worse. Even before I became an atheist I wasn't wrapped in self-loathing, whipping myself every time I looked down a girl's blouse. So whilst I'd rather they weren't, I wouldn't have a cow if my kids were given a "moderately observant" upbringing.
It's tough to say "maybe because Catholics don't think that" - because it implies that you're saying all Catholics don't think that. That just isn't true, because if you actually follow and believe the teachings of the Church - presumably, that's what your Catholic schools want you to do - then you should be constantly worrying about sins. I mean, you do understand that Catholicism teaches that you will tortured in Hell forever and ever, for all eternity without end or a break, without any hope of salvation if you commit a mortal sin without repenting of it, right? That's some serious fucking shit. They basically tell you that if you do something bad, you are at serious risk of being thrown in a dark hole for the entirety of your existence (which, by the way, will never end) where you will be subject to torture and fire and pain for all time, forever, and you'll always be there - you'll never be allowed to leave. And you're at serious risk of this eternal damnation with every grave sin - masturbation, homosexuality, abortion, sloth, lust, pride, envy, etc etc etc etc.
It is cruel to teach a child that.
Just because you apparently did not take that threat seriously doesn't mean you ought to send your children to a school that will encourage that belief system, or raise them in an enviornment where that belief system will be taught. Because some kids, like myself, do take them seriously - and that can cause harm.
As far as my post being a 'lecture' of what "real" Catholics believe, I was simply repeating the teachings of the Church. Look it up (links below). Hell and mortal sin are things taught to every child who goes into Sunday School, High School Youth Group, or adult who takes Adult RCIA, any college student who takes a Catholic studies class, or any kid who attends a Catholic elementary school.
And here's my citation, straight from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Hell and mortal sin
Yes, I'm aware of the idea of hell and mortal sin, or it wouldn't have been a very good religious school would it? Neither I nor any of the more religiously observant kids I grew up with fretted over the idea of sin any more than they did being caught running in the corridors. Your parents, teachers or whoever's duty it was to teach you this stuff obviously neglected to lecture you on Purgatory or the relevence of the New Testament vis-a-vis judgement and forgiveness. Sorry about that. But your concept of religion seems to be a mix of your own bad experiences and a Bill Maher rant.
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Awwww, I'll reply to your post.
I feel like if you can read a woman's signs of interest, and they're coming in loud and clear, you shouldn't lead her on. Even though, I get what you're saying about the conversation suffering. It's up to you to set the tone if you aren't into her, because when you lead a girl on like that, obviously you get 20 page love confessions.
You monster.
Honestly, she had a huge head, or at least that's how it appeared in photos. I didn't really notice until she started cutting her hair shorter.
That's not why I left her or anything though.
Should've said, "Sometimes I wish you had more hair."
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I figure I'll hear that a lot when I'm 50.
Well, that might be true for some people... But for someone who actually believes that their religion is the objectively correct view of reality, it makes complete sense that they would want their SO to convert to their beliefs. After all, if you're an evangelical Christian and you fall in love with an atheist, you believe that the atheist - who is not saved - has a very high chance of going to hell forever and ever. If you actually love that person, you would want to save them from eternal torment in a lake of fire forever and ever. So even if the conversion attempts are awkward or stressful, it would be worth it if you could save your love from eternal torture.
Of course, that's all contingent upon you actually believing your own religion. Many people just "believe" half-heartedly because that's just what their family's religion is. In that case, yeah, it's a bit silly.
Most conversion-based religions discourage their members from getting in relationships with people who have conflicting views exactly for this reason.
Also, we're talking about an atheist trying to "convert" a moderately observant Jew into being an atheist (like him) for no good reason. At the very best he's being an obnoxious twat (he knew she was religious when he got in the relationship, after all), at the worst he's trying to mold her belief structure so she'll be easier for him to control. Trying to force someone to change deeply-held beliefs, like religion, to fit their own purposes is textbook domestic abuse behavior.
Yeah, but atheists don't believe their partners are going to go to hell.
So other than examples I mentioned - like where it's detrimental to your kid's education etc. - there's no serious reason for an atheist to be trying to convert their partner like that.
edit: dammnit Duffel
That's my bad for not reading the entire thread. Sorry!
The only thing I'm worried about is if we ever get married and have kids. There's no fucking way I'm having a Catholic ceremony—my parents are Jews, and I think it's all a bunch of nonsense anyway—and she's pretty adamant on raising her kids Catholic. Why the fuck would I want my kids beating themselves up over every little thing the church defines as a sin, or believing in a system that tells them that they're filthy creatures who need to be saved? No disrespect to the girlfriend or any Catholics on the board, but I'd want my kids to have the choice before entering into such a potentially-masochistic belief system.
I guess what I'm getting at is that there is a pretty serious and compelling reason for an atheist to try to "convert" the partner—even a moderately observant one, like my girlfriend— or at least get her to make her beliefs personal and not force them on future kids. A lot of atheists wish people "saved" from their own hurtful belief systems, and while most of us can respect an individual's right to religion, things can get iffy when marriage or children are thrown into the mix.
(Maybe this is getting off-topic enough to warrant a new thread. Something on mixed-religion relationships, maybe?)
edit: Not that I'm trying to defend celandine's boyfriend's behavior, that guy's just being a dick from the sound of it.
Uh, maybe because Catholics don't think like that. I grew up in a Irish-Catholic household, went to church, was an altar boy, and sent to Catholic Primary and High Schools. It was boring and repetitive, but nothing worse. Even before I became an atheist I wasn't wrapped in self-loathing, whipping myself every time I looked down a girl's blouse. So whilst I'd rather they weren't, I wouldn't have a cow if my kids were given a "moderately observant" upbringing.
EDIT: For instance, most people like to feel that their own families will be a continuation of what came before them. Since her family was a Catholic and she had a Catholic childhood and upbringing, she wants her own children to have similar experiences to her own (and her parents, and grandparents...). It's a kind of bond that forms that can be important even entirely independent of the religious and spiritual aspect. She may feel that, in not raising her children as Catholic, she would be driving a wedge between her own family, and you all and your children. She may feel that her own family would be disappointed in her and take raising her children out of the church as a kind of rejection. We could speculate on reasons all day, but suffice to say that religious transmission has a lot more going on than just "not going to hell".
And, as I mentioned in an earlier post - really, you knew when you got into this (serious) relationship that she was religious and this would eventually come up. If you try to change her beliefs you're trying to change one of the most fundamental aspects of her personality to fit your own beliefs and desires. I'm not saying you're doing this selfishly, like I think celandine's BF is - actually, just the opposite.
But you're still doing it, and the effects could be very harmful down the road even though your intentions were entirely good. What are you going to do fifteen years from now when you find out that, despite what you may have thought, she still feels the same way she used only now she resents you for trying to do something she sees as so hurtful?
It's a complicated topic, obviously. Definitely not saying you should break up with her but you're going to need to compromise somehow on it or things are gonna get really bad.
(I would be willing/interested in making this a new topic, but I'm afraid it would just be another lolreligion thread after ten pages, that's the way it usually goes)
I was convinced this would turn into a continuation of the Pick-up artists thread.
The big problem is that her beliefs and mine—even in their "moderate" forms—engender pretty strong feelings when it comes to children. I don't want my kids brought up in any religion. I want them brought up in the morals we both believe, and taught the ideals we want them taught. When they're old enough, they can decide for themselves whether or not they want to enter into any particular religion (and at that point I'd want to expose them to many different religions, so that they can follow the creed that truly speaks to them). She, on the other hand, thinks that morals and religion go hand in hand, and that it's her moral responsibility to make sure her children are raised Catholic (she's said as much in conversations we've had on the topic). That bothers me, because while plenty of Catholics turn out OK and get positive experiences from their faith, plenty don't. I want religion to be a choice, not an imperative—not the sort of thing where my kid will say "it's the only thing I've ever known since birth, I couldn't ever believe anything else, you can't teach an old dog new tricks." Not to insult celandine, but it's exactly her kind of beliefs that I fear— the sort of religiosity so deeply ingrained that it actually becomes mentally painful and morally challenging to seriously consider other worldviews.
It's a problem that's a long way off—neither of us plans on getting married or having kids in the next 5 years—but I can already tell that it's going to be a pretty nasty issue when it pops up.
I think the problem with Celandine is that A: The guy seems to be very forceful in changing her beliefs and B: He's sounds like a total cockbag. I mean wouldn't you find Athesism unappealing when the guy pushing it on you is an amoral controlling layabout?
Also where do you live Chopper? Because I can understand your position on this if your definition of "moderate" is by a different set of standards.
You believe (x) and want your potential children brought up (x) way.
GF believes (y) and wants your potential children brought up (y) way.
x =/= y
And it sounds like you're both old and mature enough that your minds are probably made up about it. I wish you the best of luck and I hope it works out for you, but as you've already realized this is probably going to be a pretty ugly situation unless someone is willing to compromise.
You want to teach your kids to have good morals and be good people
She wants to teach your kids to believe in God because people who believe in God have morals and therefore are good people
Forcing them to do it one way seems problematic as opposed to at least letting them choose. Then again, I feel being pro-choice in any matter is better than the alternative, because a choice is just that- a choice. You can choose to go one way or to go another way.
Don't you think it's an issue when you say something like "My SO is really great except when it comes to religion. Religion, or lack thereof, is an important part of both of our lives, but we never really discuss it." I thought you were supposed to be able to discuss these sorts of things with your partner, and not leave it for the future version of yourself to argue about, when you've wasted years of your lives feeling you'd be compatible when you aren't
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Also, provided they're not being raised in a fanatically-strict environment, they will have as much the option to choose either way. You can choose to give up the religion you were raised with and become an atheist just as easily as you can choose to give up the atheism you were raised with and become religious.
That I completely agree with.
As for my own bf, I do think he was being a dick, though I'm going to try and make lemonade from the lemons and use this as an opportunity to examine my own faith critically.
The thing is, he's a bit intolerant, despite all his well-meaning liberal politics. Like, if we go into a normal, Bud Lite-selling corner bar, he'll make all kinds of remarks under his breath about how weird it is to visit "Middle America." There's also some weirdness about non-white neighborhoods. He's simply not very understanding about different kinds of people, whether that be class or background or religion -- he's so exclusively a product of his Upper West Side upbringing that he isn't very good at putting himself in anybody else's shoes. (Partly why he didn't get along with my parents -- he was always inadvertently offending them because he isn't very good at picking up people's feelings.) He was just baffled that anyone worth taking seriously might believe in a religion. And that, I think, is insulting.
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I mean, no offense toward you intended but it sounds like this dude is one the most pure and undiluted assholes I've ever heard of. Not really Ted Bundy-like or whatever but just like someone took the Prick-o-meter (tm) and cranked it up to twelve.
I also don't really see how well-meaning his politics can be if he's openly disparaging toward a) all white people of lower social class than his own upper-upper-upper-class ass and b) all minorities.
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That's what is going on, it's just a little bit early is all.
EDIT: Damn you, cooljammer.
It's tough to say "maybe because Catholics don't think that" - because it implies that you're saying all Catholics don't think that. That just isn't true, because if you actually follow and believe the teachings of the Church - presumably, that's what your Catholic schools want you to do - then you should be constantly worrying about sins. I mean, you do understand that Catholicism teaches that you will tortured in Hell forever and ever, for all eternity without end or a break, without any hope of salvation if you commit a mortal sin without repenting of it, right? That's some serious fucking shit. They basically tell you that if you do something bad, you are at serious risk of being thrown in a dark hole for the entirety of your existence (which, by the way, will never end) where you will be subject to torture and fire and pain for all time, forever, and you'll always be there - you'll never be allowed to leave. And you're at serious risk of this eternal damnation with every grave sin - masturbation, homosexuality, abortion, sloth, lust, pride, envy, etc etc etc etc.
It is cruel to teach a child that.
Just because you apparently did not take that threat seriously doesn't mean you ought to send your children to a school that will encourage that belief system, or raise them in an enviornment where that belief system will be taught. Because some kids, like myself, do take them seriously - and that can cause harm.
I sense some bias.
Well his first paragraph is true. If I had to go through that shit I'd be pretty fucking biased too.
Having been to a catholic school I can say his experience is not universal. I dare say it's almost exclusive.
So first comes the phone call. I never gave this girl my nu,mber nor did I know she existed until that moment. She says I HAVE to take her to prom since she bought a dress and "everything". I calmly explained that would be impossible since Lone wolfs don't mingle with the pack( I may have said "I-I'm s-s-sorry but um I'm not um interested" you'll never prove it though). Despite her protests I assured her it was for the best and we hung up.
It doesn't end though.
So in class the next day the Nigerian exchange student comes up. She hands me a note then goes to her seat before class starts.
Why I opened it I'll never know. It said:
" My friend Shawnee wants you to take her to Prom. Her boyfriend said it was okay.
Why won't you?"
I'm a bit stunned at that point so after class I talk to her about it. After some discussion it becomes apparent that by process of elimination I am one of the 6-7 available boys for Prom. The others have said no. I am apparently the last hope.
Normally I probably would have relented but I was pretty insulted that out of seven guys I was last choice. I told her " I'm not interested. Tell her I'm sorry though." and left for whatever class was next.
Then the girl calls again afterschool.
She's pretty mad this time. Saying that since she bought her dress and "everything"( I never found out what "everything" was) if I wont take her I should pay her back. You know because we totally committed to going to the prom years ago in a blood pact or something.
I was pretty mad at this point. I said the following" Listen. I am not interested.
AT. ALL. I've never met you before. I still haven't met you. Prom costs what 200 bucks? I could buy a giant bag of Cocaine( I don't know why I used this as an example) for 200 bucks and have a much better time than going with a girl who wants to use me as a human ticket !"
She hung up.
I never heard from her again.
Depends on the school obviously, and back to what Melk was saying, the morals of the particular person doing the teaching. You're right in that there are Catholics who preach what Melk is saying and others who are more moderate. And there are others who are Catholic in name only.
Haha well done.
Oh, boy, high school. Just wait it out, man.
I sympathize a little with Prom Dress Girl (though she has zero awareness of what's socially appropriate and not much consideration for you.) I remember being seventeen -- nobody was going to ask me to prom, so I asked a few guys, with increasing desperation, and struck out with all of them. Not having a date to prom feels like total failure. Then, of course, life goes on.
But yeah, that's quite a meltdown.
http://numberblog.wordpress.com/
Where does it say he went through it? All I see is a lecture on what 'real' Catholics believe/do, because obviously being raised catholic, going to a catholic school, being an assistant to the clergy until my late teens and having almost-universally Catholic friends until College doesn't give me a good perspective on Catholics.
I'm 26. That was the extent of my high school dating career. Loving Transformers and anime did nothing to increase my social standing.
Hell and mortal sin are clear Catholic teachings that you probably would have been taught at a Catholic school. You apparently did not take them seriously. That's fine. I guess you were either smarter than me as a child, or just apathetic.
Oddly, loving transformers and anime did wonders for my social standing at university.
Also since you guys are talking about bad prom experiences and this is the "god my ex was horrible" thread...
Yes, I was that monster.
I did go through it, and I did say that here:
As far as my post being a 'lecture' of what "real" Catholics believe, I was simply repeating the teachings of the Church. Look it up (links below). Hell and mortal sin are things taught to every child who goes into Sunday School, High School Youth Group, or adult who takes Adult RCIA, any college student who takes a Catholic studies class, or any kid who attends a Catholic elementary school.
And here's my citation, straight from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Hell and mortal sin
Yes, I'm aware of the idea of hell and mortal sin, or it wouldn't have been a very good religious school would it? Neither I nor any of the more religiously observant kids I grew up with fretted over the idea of sin any more than they did being caught running in the corridors. Your parents, teachers or whoever's duty it was to teach you this stuff obviously neglected to lecture you on Purgatory or the relevence of the New Testament vis-a-vis judgement and forgiveness. Sorry about that. But your concept of religion seems to be a mix of your own bad experiences and a Bill Maher rant.
Well, she had....