The Bitching About Bad Comics Thread

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  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    TexiKen wrote: »
    I was going to put this in the Spidey thread, but it's going to turn into bitching anyway, but Tom Brevoort thinks Spidey is about youth, not responsibility

    Personally, I feel it's pretty 50/50. A superhero book about youth is nothing special; there's no shortage of books on the stands about young heroes learning the ropes, overcoming life obstacles, and trying to discover who they want to be. One of my chief complaints about the most recent iteration of Blue Beetle was that it followed that old, tired formula too closely, without saying anything new.

    But then, superhero books about responsibility aren't terribly unique either. One of the major themes of the classic superhero tale is that people who have the ability to help others should do so. This has led to many a story where the protagonist is challenged to live up to that heroic idea, with varying results; sometimes a conflicted hero throws in the towel and retires, sometimes heroes like the Punisher or Wolverine act in decidedly irresponsible ways, and sometimes you get heroes like Booster Gold who only choose to pursue their own ends, without regard for society's interests.

    What Spider-Man did was combine those two tired old genre tropes into something new and refreshing. Lee and Ditko created a young hero who was constantly forced to remind himself that he had responsibilities that would always separate him from his peers. Every time Peter missed a date with Gwen, showed up late for dinner with MJ, let his grades slip in school, forgot he was supposed to hang out with Harry, or failed to show up for a party, he was forced to evaluate whether he really needed to be The Responsible Spider-Man, when everyone else his age was just concerned with living life, and having fun.

    I think the real heart of the Spider-Man story is about becoming a an adult. It's about being young, and recognizing that youthful dalliances occasionally have to take a back seat to your responsibilities.

    My fear is that some of the writers and editors at Marvel believe that a youthful Spider-Man can only be depicted as a listless slacker in his early twenties, perpetually failing his friends and families, unable to hold any kind of real, steady job, and incapable of forming meaningful relationships with people.

    And as a reader in his early twenties, I find that kind of ridiculous, because it's not at all indicative of reality. Spidey has zero resonance with me whenever he's constantly backsliding into one mess or another due to his own youthful ignorance. If Marvel creators want readers to empathize with Peter, they need to have him win every now and then. They don't need to have him advance to the point that he's married with two kids, a salaried job at the Bugle, a mortgage, and a dog, but I'd have no problem reading about a Spider-Man dealing with the day-to-day annoyances and rewards of a committed relationship, or one that's struggling with the realities of a new career, or one that's forced to deal with his own mortality when his aunt dies. Because these are all things that I, or other readers in Peter's age bracket, can identify with to one degree or another.

    I think the problem is that most of the Spider-Man writers are older gentlemen, and consequently have distilled their memories of their twenties down into a potent concoction of getting blackout drunk, sleeping with random women, failing to hold a real job, and having longtime relationships dissolve.

    And making pacts with Satan.

    Munch on
  • HenslerHensler Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Wait... What?

    Anyway, am I alone in being totally fucking lost with FC Aftermath: Escape? Problem is, I'm committed now four issues into a six-issue mini, but WTF man.

    I was lost after the first issue.

    Hensler on
  • TexiKenTexiKen lllllet's go! Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    And while on this subject, I can't believe Waid/Morrison/Millar are so in love with Superman yet still thinks there should be a love triangle between Supes/Lois/Clark. That's not only tired and stupid, it's so demeaning to women (and I'm usually one to tune out when people start talking about feminism).

    TexiKen on
  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I

    what?

    august on
    Pac Man's character is difficult to explain even to the Japanese -- he is an innocent character. He hasn't been educated to discern between good and evil. He acts more like a small child than a grown-up person. Think of him as a child learning in the course of his daily activities. If someone tells him guns are evil, he would be the type to rush out and eat guns. But he would most probably eat any gun, even the pistols of policemen who need them.
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    It is a pretty dick for Clark to play with Lois' head like he does in those pre-marriage stories.

    The Astro City take on that story was cool, though.

    Robos A Go Go on
  • TexiKenTexiKen lllllet's go! Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Spoil, Robos.

    I need to read that series, because it's Busiek and he makes everything work well. Superman: Secret Identity? Golden.

    TexiKen on
  • The Lovely BastardThe Lovely Bastard Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I enjoy the Superman/Lois/Clark love triangle because it is such a dick move

    also the Lana/Lois rivalry

    so many great moments

    The Lovely Bastard on
  • The Lovely BastardThe Lovely Bastard Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I am pro-demeaning women, I guess, is what I am saying

    The Lovely Bastard on
  • TexiKenTexiKen lllllet's go! Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    And that's another thing, Lana Lang. What the hell, woman? You call it off with Clark, continue to float around in his life, name your son after Clark, marry Pete as your backup, then divorce him when he's VP because you think years later you can try and steal Clark from Lois again (Austen made Lana and Lois out to be complete psychos during his Action Comics run), and then because you can't get Superman you take Supergirl under your wing?

    TexiKen on
  • The Lovely BastardThe Lovely Bastard Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    that is all logical behavior

    The Lovely Bastard on
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    TexiKen wrote: »
    Spoil, Robos.

    I need to read that series, because it's Busiek and he makes everything work well. Superman: Secret Identity? Golden.
    Basically, a Lois Lane pastiche exists alongside a hero named Atomicus who was born in a nuclear reactor. There's also a male reporter who the woman believes to be Atomicus, and trying to prove that he is in fact a superhero is something she views as a cat and mouse game between her and him.
    astro_city_v3_002_16_rougher.jpg

    astro_city_v3_002_17_rougher.jpg

    astro_city_v3_002_18_rougher.jpg

    astro_city_v3_002_19_rougher.jpg

    astro_city_v3_002_20_rougher.jpg

    Robos A Go Go on
  • Futt BuckerFutt Bucker Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Wow.

    Time to buy Astro City trades.

    Futt Bucker on
    My color is black to the blind
  • RingoRingo He/Him Bury me at Lone Tree DenRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    At the very least, I disagree with the "Character X should always return to Natural State Y" conditions. I'd much prefer people try to tell good stories, and if you're going to bother to set those stories in specific continuity with each other, they'd better damn well lend to the overall narrative.

    Ringo on
    Sterica wrote: »
    I know my last visit to my grandpa on his deathbed was to find out how the whole Nazi werewolf thing turned out.
    Edcrab's Exigency RPG
  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I think what annoys me is how futile it is. No matter how often you try to get a character back to their roots, we'll still have 10 year intervals where you know, he's angsty or he's married or he's on the fucking moon or whatever. It doesn't matter how many times you reset the clock, it's only going to work for a short time. So why not just see what happens?

    durandal4532 on
    Take a moment to donate what you can to Critical Resistance and Black Lives Matter.
  • DeJesusDeJesus Registered User
    edited August 2009
    Munch wrote: »
    TexiKen wrote: »
    I was going to put this in the Spidey thread, but it's going to turn into bitching anyway, but Tom Brevoort thinks Spidey is about youth, not responsibility

    Personally, I feel it's pretty 50/50. A superhero book about youth is nothing special; there's no shortage of books on the stands about young heroes learning the ropes, overcoming life obstacles, and trying to discover who they want to be. One of my chief complaints about the most recent iteration of Blue Beetle was that it followed that old, tired formula too closely, without saying anything new.

    But then, superhero books about responsibility aren't terribly unique either. One of the major themes of the classic superhero tale is that people who have the ability to help others should do so. This has led to many a story where the protagonist is challenged to live up to that heroic idea, with varying results; sometimes a conflicted hero throws in the towel and retires, sometimes heroes like the Punisher or Wolverine act in decidedly irresponsible ways, and sometimes you get heroes like Booster Gold who only choose to pursue their own ends, without regard for society's interests.

    What Spider-Man did was combine those two tired old genre tropes into something new and refreshing. Lee and Ditko created a young hero who was constantly forced to remind himself that he had responsibilities that would always separate him from his peers. Every time Peter missed a date with Gwen, showed up late for dinner with MJ, let his grades slip in school, forgot he was supposed to hang out with Harry, or failed to show up for a party, he was forced to evaluate whether he really needed to be The Responsible Spider-Man, when everyone else his age was just concerned with living life, and having fun.

    I think the real heart of the Spider-Man story is about becoming a an adult. It's about being young, and recognizing that youthful dalliances occasionally have to take a back seat to your responsibilities.

    My fear is that some of the writers and editors at Marvel believe that a youthful Spider-Man can only be depicted as a listless slacker in his early twenties, perpetually failing his friends and families, unable to hold any kind of real, steady job, and incapable of forming meaningful relationships with people.

    And as a reader in his early twenties, I find that kind of ridiculous, because it's not at all indicative of reality. Spidey has zero resonance with me whenever he's constantly backsliding into one mess or another due to his own youthful ignorance. If Marvel creators want readers to empathize with Peter, they need to have him win every now and then. They don't need to have him advance to the point that he's married with two kids, a salaried job at the Bugle, a mortgage, and a dog, but I'd have no problem reading about a Spider-Man dealing with the day-to-day annoyances and rewards of a committed relationship, or one that's struggling with the realities of a new career, or one that's forced to deal with his own mortality when his aunt dies. Because these are all things that I, or other readers in Peter's age bracket, can identify with to one degree or another.

    I think the problem is that most of the Spider-Man writers are older gentlemen, and consequently have distilled their memories of their twenties down into a potent concoction of getting blackout drunk, sleeping with random women, failing to hold a real job, and having longtime relationships dissolve.

    And making pacts with Satan.

    I don't agree with tom for the most part. I can say i've liked ult spidey more than brand new day spidey. Brand new day feels like they are trying to reharsh the 60s and 70s but with out gwen.

    Some of my favorite peter parker stuff is his relationship with gorgeous redhead who is too hot for him, and no one gets why she likes him. I like spidey when he has friends and a gf and his problems are his superheroing getting in the way of his life, but he is compelled to do it.

    DeJesus on
  • TexiKenTexiKen lllllet's go! Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Why is it we now have no continuing story where Peter and MJ aren't together? You take it away in 616, now Ultimate, Spider-Girl is in limbo right now but is relegated to anthology titles every now and then, MA Spidey is more about being in his teens than relationships.

    TexiKen on
  • LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    He's still with MJ in movie continuity, right?
    That's at least something.
    Fuck BND/OMD

    Lucascraft on
  • FaynorFaynor Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Too bad Kirsten Dunst is the worst thing.

    The worst thing!
    It would actually be really interesting if Spider-Man died. Why doesn`t the superhero ever die? I think if Mary Jane was alone, pregnant and he died, she could give birth to a spider baby and carry on the series with another young boy or something like that.

    worst

    Faynor on
    do you wanna see me eat a hotdog
  • The Lovely BastardThe Lovely Bastard Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    god damn you Kirsten Dunst

    The Lovely Bastard on
  • The Lovely BastardThe Lovely Bastard Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    (I would totally see a movie based on that premise just to see how awful it was, though)

    The Lovely Bastard on
  • FaynorFaynor Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Bryce Dallas Howard totally should have been MJ originally

    Kirsten Dunst could have been dumb Gwen

    Faynor on
    do you wanna see me eat a hotdog
  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    yes Faynor you're only the millionth person ever to say that


    today

    Balefuego on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • FaynorFaynor Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Hey Bale shut up

    My opinions are all delicate, unique, beautiful snowflakes

    Faynor on
    do you wanna see me eat a hotdog
  • DeJesusDeJesus Registered User
    edited August 2009
    The only actress to who could ever bring jutice to the mj character would be tracy gold of growing pains fame.

    DeJesus on
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2009
    Christina Hendricks should play MJ in the next movie

    Reason 1) redhead

    Reason 2) Goddamn them titties

    Me Too! on
  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Bitch, you wouldn't have even known who she was if I hadn't mentioned her (for Black Widow, IIRC) in the movies thread like a fucking year ago.
    Faynor wrote: »
    Bryce Dallas Howard totally should have been MJ originally

    Kirsten Dunst could have been dumb Gwen

    Dunst could play Snaggletooth.

    Crimsondude on
  • WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Me Too! wrote: »
    Reason 2) Goddamn them titties
    I must confess this is a compelling reason.

    Wildcat on
  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Finally, a well-reasoned argument from Wiggin.

    Crimsondude on
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2009
    Bitch, you wouldn't have even known who she was if I hadn't mentioned her (for Black Widow, IIRC) in the movies thread like a fucking year ago.
    Faynor wrote: »
    Bryce Dallas Howard totally should have been MJ originally

    Kirsten Dunst could have been dumb Gwen

    Dunst could play Snaggletooth.

    I don't remember reading that thread more than four or five times, gonna be honest

    Also I know who she is because of Mad Men

    But seriously look at those things

    Me Too! on
  • KyouguKyougu Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    For a while there Nikki Cox would have made a perfect MJ.

    Kyougu on
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Don't ever say to yourself, "I wonder what Nikki Cox is up to now." The answer will terrify you.

    Robos A Go Go on
  • revcomrevcom Registered User
    edited August 2009
    Don't ever say to yourself, "I wonder what Nikki Cox is up to now." The answer will terrify you.

    chlamydia is a full time job

    revcom on
  • KyouguKyougu Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I naturally had to look up what she was doing now.

    First thing Google suggest in autocomplete? "Nikki Cox plastic surgery". Not a good sign. And then I click on the first result.

    :(

    Kyougu on
  • The Lovely BastardThe Lovely Bastard Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Las Vegas wasn't an awful show

    The Lovely Bastard on
  • DarkWarriorDarkWarrior __BANNED USERS
    edited August 2009
    Kyougu wrote: »
    I naturally had to look up what she was doing now.

    First thing Google suggest in autocomplete? "Nikki Cox plastic surgery". Not a good sign. And then I click on the first result.

    :(

    I'm surprised you'#ve managed to go this long without seeing the bride of Wildenstein 2.

    DarkWarrior on
  • revcomrevcom Registered User
    edited August 2009
    Las Vegas wasn't an awful show

    james caan deserves better

    revcom on
  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    He only got shot once on Las Vegas.

    But speaking of resurrecting old topics. I think this is the thread where I posted that godawful pic of her.

    Crimsondude on
  • TexiKenTexiKen lllllet's go! Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    OK, since this was in the Marvel solicits for November but, you know, it's Land, the cover to Uncanny #517:

    119_UNCANNY_X_MEN_517.jpg

    -It's too much work to draw a line to distinguish Emma's arm form her cape. It's not even trying something new with coloring, it's just lazy.
    -Emma's left hand is holding a sword that isn't there, probably erased out from a previous Land work.
    -Psylocke's hands are open when she makes her psychic knifes instead of being a closed fist, as shown for forever. Probably swiped from a sorcerer or something Land has traced before.
    -Psylocke lost her legs in an apparent too hard to fucking trace those legs incident
    -Cyclops had his left legs blown off by stupid, and also looks like that was a previous Wolverine pose.
    -Oh hey, X symbol just down there in the left corner, did someone just magnify you 300% to fill up space down there?

    And we are called jerks because we ask Quesada why this man keeps getting work? Really?

    TexiKen on
  • The Lovely BastardThe Lovely Bastard Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    No see Psylocke was off filming the sequel to Boxing Helena

    The Lovely Bastard on
  • FaynorFaynor Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Namor's face is so wavy.

    Also, that's like the second cover where Magneto is shooting pink lightning out of his eyes. New power, or just something that's fun to draw?

    Faynor on
    do you wanna see me eat a hotdog
This discussion has been closed.