Doing too much aoe on trash packs isn't a reason to nerf something.
The interrupt i can understand as it locks out that spell school for a few seconds and i'm sure pvpers got pissed off so we get the pve nerf because of it. Now 0 rogues will have throwing spec with points in it... hell all it affects is deadly throw now and i completely forgot we had a deadly throw spell. Whatever happened to making all talents an option?
I don't think throwing spec was really intended to be a PvE talent, so just don't pick it up.
Like I said in the other thread, hunters were pretty well raping everyone in AoE with the 3.0 Volley, so they nerfed that. They still seem to be doing all right though.
I was just in an AV where a couple rogues would just run into the battles and stand still spamming FoK. Personally with all the other PVP tools a rogue has, that seems like it shouldn't be a valid pvp tactic.
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Whether they find a life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet.
I was just in an AV where a couple rogues would just run into the battles and stand still spamming FoK. Personally with all the other PVP tools a rogue has, that seems like it shouldn't be a valid pvp tactic.
I mean... i guess it's a valid pvp tactic if the rogues wants to end up dead.
Also what do you mean by current FoK = Yogg 0 nerf? I think I missed this
I was just in an AV where a couple rogues would just run into the battles and stand still spamming FoK. Personally with all the other PVP tools a rogue has, that seems like it shouldn't be a valid pvp tactic.
I mean... i guess it's a valid pvp tactic if the rogues wants to end up dead.
Also what do you mean by current FoK = Yogg 0 nerf? I think I missed this
All viable yogg 0 strategies involve a rogue FOKing his little heart out for both ape damage to keep guardian damage low as well as imp throwing to interrupt life drains. The fan of knives change nerfs both.
I believe it's also done to get wound poison on the guardians to reduce the healing they get from the Yogg buff. Of course that will still be viable post-patch.
Yeah I would rather have just the talent/interrupt change for FoK to nerf it in PvP.
But at the same time, a rogue's main focus has always been single-target damage, so it's not a huge deal to me. I'm glad that they gave us an AoE in the first place, and it is pretty damn powerful as it is now.
And like others have said, who really cares about trash?
Hey, as a newly 80 rogue what stats should I gem for?
If you're a Mutilate Rogue, I believe your first order of business should be to get to the Expertise cap. I think the number you need, when looking at your character sheet, is 26/26, which is like... 215ish rating? And then you want 250ish Hit rating for your poisons to not miss. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong these days, as I've been on a bit of a hiatus.
No idea about Combat!
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SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
edited August 2009
Hit cap for poisons is 315 if you're not in a group with a Draenei--and only if you're specced 5/5 Precision, which is in the Combat tree (every major build uses it, as far as I know).
Expertise cap is like 25/25 or something, I forget.
Basically what you want to gem for is +hit and agility. Maybe some stam for survivability. Later on, when you get enough hit from only gear, I guess you'll be wanting haste and crit.
Hit cap for poisons is 315 if you're not in a group with a Draenei--and only if you're specced 5/5 Precision, which is in the Combat tree (every major build uses it, as far as I know).
Expertise cap is like 25/25 or something, I forget.
Basically what you want to gem for is +hit and agility. Maybe some stam for survivability. Later on, when you get enough hit from only gear, I guess you'll be wanting haste and crit.
ArPen is worth way more than haste to rogues. Also Attack power is more important than anything after you're hit/expertise capped.
Rogues
- Envenom's scaling has been increased from 7% to 9% of attack power per combo point.
- Fan of Knives: The damage done by this ability has been reduced by 30%.
Talents Assassination - Master Poisoner: Now also provides a 33/66/100% chance of preventing Envenom from consuming Deadly Poison. Combat
- Throwing Specialization: This talent no longer causes Fan of Knives to interrupt spellcasting. Subtlety
- Honor Among Thieves: A 1-second cooldown is now enforced on how often a rogue can gain combo points from his party via this talent.
3.2.2 build. Master Poisoner is getting an additional effect where Envenom doesn't consume Deadly Poison.
The Envenom change is hearsay but apparently it gets a 9% of ATP bonus to damage per combo point, instead of the previous 7.
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SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
edited August 2009
Also, while we're on the topic of Assassination--I recently got dual spec on my rogue and was toying around with the calculator. Cookie-cutter Mutilation is 51/13/7, 3/5 Close Quarters Combat.
I was thinking about 54/10/7, where I move the points from CQC to Master Poisoner (which now is very attractive given the recent omgwtfbuff to it). You're getting the same percentage of crit (assuming the target is poisoned, but Master Poisoner pretty much guarantees a poison within the first two seconds of an encounter), but with a whole lot more added utility of the talent. With luck, you should have Deadly on the mob almost instantly, so for practical purposes we could say that whatever opening move you use will have less chance to crit. In a long fight, I'm thinking the impact of this on DPS is miniscule.
Really, the change just reaffirms my belief that weapon mastery is unnecessary for Mutilate if you consider the options. Master Poisoner is a must-have at this point.
You would be losing crit if you raid with someone else who also gives the 3% crit debuff. Keep that in mind. Also, if you're not raiding with someone who gives the crit debuff, you should already have Master Poisoner.
I've always had Master Poisoner over Turn the Tables. In the end, 6% crit on mutilate seems less stellar than 3% crit for everything, in addition to giving 3% crit to everyone else.
Been a while since I've played, so help me out a bit here.
I typically level with an Assassination build that I threw together... I'll be hitting 80 tonight. What's the typical stat rundown for an Assassination Rogue? Should I sacrifice AP for Crit in most cases?
Well, typically in PvE questing I lead with ambush for about 3k damage, then Mutilate (puts me at 5 combo points), then Eviscerate and Mutilate. The Eviscerate typically kills them, making most mobs into a 2-3 hit kill.
Back when I played previously, I was told to put Wound Poison on mainhand, and instant poison on the offhand. Is this still true? I noticed there's a talent in Assassination that raises the instant poison chance by 50%, which is nice... and when combined with deadly brew (or whichever talent that puts crippling poison on, which makes Mutilate work better), Instant/Instant poison might be better?
I'm Serephim on Shadow Council, if you'd like to see my current build and berate me for what I'm doing wrong on talents and gear
If you're soloing I would just use either wound/wound or instant/wound. Stuff will die to fast for deadly to help much.
In a party/raid, you want instant main hand, deadly off-hand. Envenom will be your finisher. Deadly Brew is a pvp talent more than anything, so I wouldn't include it in a pve build.
As far as stats, you'll first want to make sure that you're hit capped for yellow attacks. Meaning you need 8% increased chance to hit, 5% of which you can get through Precision. AP will generaly be better than crit, but luckily most rogue gear comes with both, so you won't have to choose. If it's a choice of gems, you generally want to gem for AP. Or agility down the line.
Been a while since I've played, so help me out a bit here.
I typically level with an Assassination build that I threw together... I'll be hitting 80 tonight. What's the typical stat rundown for an Assassination Rogue? Should I sacrifice AP for Crit in most cases?
Hit rating until you hit the caps (9% for melee, 17% for poisons)
Expertise until you hit the caps (26 expertise skill)
Then agil.
Well, typically in PvE questing I lead with ambush for about 3k damage, then Mutilate (puts me at 5 combo points), then Eviscerate and Mutilate. The Eviscerate typically kills them, making most mobs into a 2-3 hit kill.
I'd open with cheap shot, 4 seconds of stun means you will kill them before they can hit you. Most mobs for me go cheapshot, mutilate, evis, and maybe another mutilate.
Back when I played previously, I was told to put Wound Poison on mainhand, and instant poison on the offhand. Is this still true? I noticed there's a talent in Assassination that raises the instant poison chance by 50%, which is nice... and when combined with deadly brew (or whichever talent that puts crippling poison on, which makes Mutilate work better), Instant/Instant poison might be better?
You won't want the deadly brew talent in a PvE spec, so stick with instant MH/wound OH.
I always tend to eek out more damage as Assassination than I do combat. Combat's a little too reliant on Sinister Strike crits to keep any kind of steady, controllable, consistent rotation.
My thought process was that 100% of your damage scales with AP, while not all of it scales with the melee crit agi gives you, but I have no idea what the number crunchers say. I'd imagine they're close enough that it doesn't really matter.
My thought process was that 100% of your damage scales with AP, while not all of it scales with the melee crit agi gives you, but I have no idea what the number crunchers say. I'd imagine they're close enough that it doesn't really matter.
Well crit is good for other things, like focused attacks and that talent I can't remember that gives you an extra combo point on combo builder criticals. So while it might not scale to the numbers as well as AP, it has valuable uses in and of itself.
Right, although the agi->crit rate is pretty low. I still just thought AP was generally better for overall damage scaling than agi, at least for some specs. On the plus side, this should be irrelevant in a little over a year!
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Doing too much aoe on trash packs isn't a reason to nerf something.
The interrupt i can understand as it locks out that spell school for a few seconds and i'm sure pvpers got pissed off so we get the pve nerf because of it. Now 0 rogues will have throwing spec with points in it... hell all it affects is deadly throw now and i completely forgot we had a deadly throw spell. Whatever happened to making all talents an option?
EDIT: too slow
Like I said in the other thread, hunters were pretty well raping everyone in AoE with the 3.0 Volley, so they nerfed that. They still seem to be doing all right though.
I mean... i guess it's a valid pvp tactic if the rogues wants to end up dead.
Also what do you mean by current FoK = Yogg 0 nerf? I think I missed this
All viable yogg 0 strategies involve a rogue FOKing his little heart out for both ape damage to keep guardian damage low as well as imp throwing to interrupt life drains. The fan of knives change nerfs both.
That axe looks HAWT.
Can't wait for a mainhand now
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
But at the same time, a rogue's main focus has always been single-target damage, so it's not a huge deal to me. I'm glad that they gave us an AoE in the first place, and it is pretty damn powerful as it is now.
And like others have said, who really cares about trash?
If you're a Mutilate Rogue, I believe your first order of business should be to get to the Expertise cap. I think the number you need, when looking at your character sheet, is 26/26, which is like... 215ish rating? And then you want 250ish Hit rating for your poisons to not miss. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong these days, as I've been on a bit of a hiatus.
No idea about Combat!
Expertise cap is like 25/25 or something, I forget.
Basically what you want to gem for is +hit and agility. Maybe some stam for survivability. Later on, when you get enough hit from only gear, I guess you'll be wanting haste and crit.
ArPen is worth way more than haste to rogues. Also Attack power is more important than anything after you're hit/expertise capped.
So much for having for watching the timer like a hawk to squeeze out that last tick of deadly poison. And I guess they're upping envenom damage again?
where are you reading this
Edit: oh, I found it.
Damn, that looks excellent.
The Envenom change is hearsay but apparently it gets a 9% of ATP bonus to damage per combo point, instead of the previous 7.
I was thinking about 54/10/7, where I move the points from CQC to Master Poisoner (which now is very attractive given the recent omgwtfbuff to it). You're getting the same percentage of crit (assuming the target is poisoned, but Master Poisoner pretty much guarantees a poison within the first two seconds of an encounter), but with a whole lot more added utility of the talent. With luck, you should have Deadly on the mob almost instantly, so for practical purposes we could say that whatever opening move you use will have less chance to crit. In a long fight, I'm thinking the impact of this on DPS is miniscule.
Really, the change just reaffirms my belief that weapon mastery is unnecessary for Mutilate if you consider the options. Master Poisoner is a must-have at this point.
Pretty much this.
I've always had Master Poisoner over Turn the Tables. In the end, 6% crit on mutilate seems less stellar than 3% crit for everything, in addition to giving 3% crit to everyone else.
I typically level with an Assassination build that I threw together... I'll be hitting 80 tonight. What's the typical stat rundown for an Assassination Rogue? Should I sacrifice AP for Crit in most cases?
Well, typically in PvE questing I lead with ambush for about 3k damage, then Mutilate (puts me at 5 combo points), then Eviscerate and Mutilate. The Eviscerate typically kills them, making most mobs into a 2-3 hit kill.
Back when I played previously, I was told to put Wound Poison on mainhand, and instant poison on the offhand. Is this still true? I noticed there's a talent in Assassination that raises the instant poison chance by 50%, which is nice... and when combined with deadly brew (or whichever talent that puts crippling poison on, which makes Mutilate work better), Instant/Instant poison might be better?
I'm Serephim on Shadow Council, if you'd like to see my current build and berate me for what I'm doing wrong on talents and gear
In a party/raid, you want instant main hand, deadly off-hand. Envenom will be your finisher. Deadly Brew is a pvp talent more than anything, so I wouldn't include it in a pve build.
As far as stats, you'll first want to make sure that you're hit capped for yellow attacks. Meaning you need 8% increased chance to hit, 5% of which you can get through Precision. AP will generaly be better than crit, but luckily most rogue gear comes with both, so you won't have to choose. If it's a choice of gems, you generally want to gem for AP. Or agility down the line.
For Groups and Raids, does Envenom completely replace Eviscerate? Does Mutilate replace backstab?
And even then the air elemental bosses are specifically NOT immune so as not to nerf mutilate.
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
Hit rating until you hit the caps (9% for melee, 17% for poisons)
Expertise until you hit the caps (26 expertise skill)
Then agil.
I'd open with cheap shot, 4 seconds of stun means you will kill them before they can hit you. Most mobs for me go cheapshot, mutilate, evis, and maybe another mutilate.
You won't want the deadly brew talent in a PvE spec, so stick with instant MH/wound OH.
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
Strike that, reverse it
Well crit is good for other things, like focused attacks and that talent I can't remember that gives you an extra combo point on combo builder criticals. So while it might not scale to the numbers as well as AP, it has valuable uses in and of itself.