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Hostage victims - their pleas vs. society's needs.

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Posts

  • RobmanRobman Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    The MISSING WHITE WOMAN and the dude from aussieland nobody cares about are supposedly locked in a small rock cell. After multiple escape attempts, it's doubtful she's afforded much more then bread, water, and rape.

    Robman on
  • KidDynamiteKidDynamite Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    If anything you take out the group and not allow them to ever try this method of terrorism again.


    I happen to agree. If kidnapping someone=dead, how many kidnappings would we see.

    KidDynamite on
  • redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    You know, there are a lot of countries and companies that will still pay ransoms regardless of the US's policies. If the kidnappers learn that the US policy is to kill them when they attempt to collect ransom, they aren't necessarily going to stop kidnapping people or even accidentally kidnapping americans. What may well happen is they will just dump the bodies of any kidnappies with US Passports in a ditch and move on to find people they can ransom.

    It's a thing we forget a lot, but other countries do exist and they don't always give a crap what america does nor will they follow suit.

    redx on
    They moistly come out at night, moistly.
  • DmanDman Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    redx wrote: »
    You know, there are a lot of countries and companies that will still pay ransoms regardless of the US's policies. If the kidnappers learn that the US policy is to kill them when they attempt to collect ransom, they aren't necessarily going to stop kidnapping people or even accidentally kidnapping americans. What may well happen is they will just dump the bodies of any kidnappies with US Passports in a ditch and move on to find people they can ransom.

    It's a thing we forget a lot, but other countries do exist and they don't always give a crap what america does nor will they follow suit.

    There are some companies and countries that have paid ransoms, and in particular ransoms to Somali pirates.

    There are also some countries that have sent in swat teams and successfully freed hostages.

    Someone said France paid the ransoms but I heard exactly the opposite:
    Four hostages, including a child, were freed from the hijacked yacht after almost a week of captivity, Nicolas Sarkozy's office said.

    The possibility that the pirates could take their hostages ashore was a red line that prompted the mission. The same red line triggered two successful rescue missions by the French military last year, the ministry said.
    http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/04/10/somalia.france/index.html


    Fucking around with military operations in another country is a big foreign relations and international law no no and exactly why the french acted before the pirates could take their hostages ashore and why Canada isn't sending in special forces to free these hostages.

    Paying the ransom is a bad idea. Would you rather some hostages of your nation occasionally be collateral damage, or would you rather people of your nation are specifically targeted for kidnapping?

    Dman on
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    redx wrote: »
    You know, there are a lot of countries and companies that will still pay ransoms regardless of the US's policies.
    Some insurance companies offer kidnapping insurance. The insurance includes the actual cost of the ransom, plus the cost of hiring a negotiator from a private security firm like Triple Canopy to handle the exchange of money and hostage. But, this is more likely to work in places like South America where the kidnappers are more professional.

    Is it the best policy, looking at the big picture? Probably not. But corporations that do business in dangerous locations are more concerned about getting their employees back, rather than the political implications.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
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  • GoslingGosling Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, Probably Watertown, WIRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    redx wrote: »
    You know, there are a lot of countries and companies that will still pay ransoms regardless of the US's policies. If the kidnappers learn that the US policy is to kill them when they attempt to collect ransom, they aren't necessarily going to stop kidnapping people or even accidentally kidnapping americans. What may well happen is they will just dump the bodies of any kidnappies with US Passports in a ditch and move on to find people they can ransom.

    It's a thing we forget a lot, but other countries do exist and they don't always give a crap what america does nor will they follow suit.
    Pretty much, for the same reason you don't pull a gun on a kidnapper. If you're too much trouble to deal with, they'll simply kill you right then and there and look for more manageable prey that they can actually ransom.

    I really don't think there's any one answer to the question, so I deal with it on a case-by-case basis. Every situation is different. Some kidnappers want attention, some want money, some want political leverage, and then there's the merits of how the hostage wound up there in the first place. And then there's the chance you get them back even if you do everything right. Sometimes the chances look pretty good and sometimes you pretty much consider the hostage as lost from the outset.

    Suffice to say I was much more willing to pay the price to get Laura Ling and Euna Lee back than I was for the wacko who broke into Aung Sun Suu Kyi's house.

    Gosling on
    I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I am reminded of a story of what happend in Beirut in the 80s, when hostage taking was big biz there.

    Apparently somebody thought that kidnapping Soviet diplomats was just as justified as kidnapping Americans.

    What happend next was a bunch of Spetznaz went in kidnapped a bunch of supporters of the group(not leaders, but lower levels). They then said release them or we start slitting troats. Hostages where released at once.

    No Idea if its true, but sounds like Soviet style.

    Kipling217 on
    The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
  • DeadlySherpaDeadlySherpa Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Wasn't the JTF2 created for this specific role?

    DeadlySherpa on
    tf2_sig.png
  • redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Modern Man wrote: »
    redx wrote: »
    You know, there are a lot of countries and companies that will still pay ransoms regardless of the US's policies.
    Some insurance companies offer kidnapping insurance. The insurance includes the actual cost of the ransom, plus the cost of hiring a negotiator from a private security firm like Triple Canopy to handle the exchange of money and hostage. But, this is more likely to work in places like South America where the kidnappers are more professional.

    Is it the best policy, looking at the big picture? Probably not. But corporations that do business in dangerous locations are more concerned about getting their employees back, rather than the political implications.

    I was under the impression that somolia was kinda new to the piracy thing, and that in the straights of mumublelmumble in Indonesia pirates ransoming back freighter crews and captains where a pretty common thing.

    South Africa is kinda neat, kidnappings are so common they actually put up "Highjack" caution signs on some of the roads. This kinda confused my ma when she was down their working. They do weird stuff like calling traffic signals robots(complete with "robot ahead" signs), so she figured it must be some sort of colloquialism. Nope.

    redx on
    They moistly come out at night, moistly.
  • JihadJesusJihadJesus Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Dman wrote: »

    Fucking around with military operations in another country is a big foreign relations and international law no no and exactly why the french acted before the pirates could take their hostages ashore and why Canada isn't sending in special forces to free these hostages.
    Since when have we given a shit about international law? We use our treaties as toilet paper whenever we decide it suits our interests better. Foreign relations I can see, but the international law argument is bull - we'll openly do what we think is best regardless of international law until someone actually has the clout to stop us, just like China and Russia and every other large nation on earth with a halfway capable military. Which is in stark contrast to every other country on earth, who will do the exact same thing only not as openly because they know we'll happily use it as an excuse to fuck them up should we ever decide we want to.

    JihadJesus on
  • DmanDman Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    Dman wrote: »

    Fucking around with military operations in another country is a big foreign relations and international law no no and exactly why the french acted before the pirates could take their hostages ashore and why Canada isn't sending in special forces to free these hostages.
    Since when have we given a shit about international law? We use our treaties as toilet paper whenever we decide it suits our interests better. Foreign relations I can see, but the international law argument is bull - we'll openly do what we think is best regardless of international law until someone actually has the clout to stop us, just like China and Russia and every other large nation on earth with a halfway capable military. Which is in stark contrast to every other country on earth, who will do the exact same thing only not as openly because they know we'll happily use it as an excuse to fuck them up should we ever decide we want to.

    I, um, are you talking about Canada or the US here? I don't think Canada forces other countries to act in the shadows because they are afraid if they break international law or treaties openly we will "use it as an excuse to fuck them up should we ever decide we want to"

    Dman on
  • JihadJesusJihadJesus Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Obviously hyperbole, but the US doesn't have the best record of adhering to international law. Nor does any other country, because no one really has the will or capacity to enforce it, unless it happens to dovetail nicely with their interests at the time anyway.

    JihadJesus on
  • travathiantravathian Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    fleggett wrote: »
    I think that sounds like a horrible idea, and most journalists with an ounce of self-preservation know that their non-combatant status works in their favor far more often than not.
    Why does carrying a Colt .45 automatically make you a combatant?

    Well, for one, in many, many countries carrying a personal firearm is against the law. The US has some of the most liberal gun laws in the world. Most countries don't have conceal and carry laws. Most countries don't have open carry laws. And the laws vary greatly by country, region and city. The last thing a reporter wants to do is end up in a jail cell because they crossed into a city and a cop spotted a bulge in their waistband. Secondly, if the kidnappers start assuming that all journalists are packing guns, then they will assume that are journalists ARE combatants and will react accordingly.
    You can still be a non-combatant and at least somewhat protected. What about, at the very, very least, a long and sharp knife? A taser? Pepper spray?

    A weapon is a weapon, and laws regarding these vary as well. Do you think the kidnappers just walk up to the journalists, shake their hand, introduce themselves and state that a kidnapping is taking place? WTF are you going to do with any of those items that will deter a few armed men from taking you?
    One could argue that the reason journalists are seemingly routinely kidnapped is because they don't carry these items.

    Hogwash. Banks have armed guards, they still get robbed. You walk up to the guard and put a gun to their head. Who do you think is going to win that reflex check? Same for a journalist. You think a journalist will be able to draw their firearm, load the chamber, aim and fire before the kidnapper can put half a clip in them?
    They're looking to avoid firefights and kidnappings, not 'win' them.
    But when it starts to happen, what then? "Winning" a kidnapping plot doesn't mean massacring the perpetrators, it just means getting away. If a gun helps to do that, why not?

    Again, you make it sound like the kidnappers announce themselves beforehand. If there are three journalists I want to capture and one has a gun, guess who will get shot first if needed. Right, the one with the gun. My van pulls up beside you, the door opens and there sits three of us with guns, what do you do:

    A) Put your hands up and do what we say.
    B) Reach for a gun
    C) Run like a mofo

    I'll give you a hint, one of these answers is fucking stupid when you are staring down the barrel of a gun.

    You're asleep in your crappy bed in your crappy motel somewhere in bumfuck Somalia. You have a loaded pistol in the nightstand. You're awakened by the door being kicked in and there stand three guys with flashlights and guns. What do you do? Hint: reaching for the gun in the nightstand is probably a stupid thing to do. Hell, even if the gun is under your pillow chances are they are running hot, already half aimed at you, and you're out numbered. Even with piss poor aim chances are good one of them will hit you once the lead starts flying.

    travathian on
  • InHumanInHuman Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    The Cat wrote: »
    InHuman wrote: »
    Dam, she is HOT!

    Like smokin' sexy.

    I think this warrants another one of bill's escapades.

    D:

    Holy inappropriate, Batman!


    Hey, we were all thinking it.

    If it was an ugly chick or some old people I wouldn't care as much.

    But this is a young intelligent person who just wanted to help the people of somalia through BRAVE reporting.

    Sure, she knew the risks.. but.. shes SEXXXY.

    InHuman on
  • SunstrandSunstrand Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    InHuman wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    InHuman wrote: »
    Dam, she is HOT!

    Like smokin' sexy.

    I think this warrants another one of bill's escapades.

    D:

    Holy inappropriate, Batman!


    Hey, we were all thinking it.

    If it was an ugly chick or some old people I wouldn't care as much.

    But this is a young intelligent person who just wanted to help the people of somalia through BRAVE reporting.

    Sure, she knew the risks.. but.. shes SEXXXY.

    Bullshit, if she was that smart she wouldn't have wandered into Somalia without proper protection, and as for helping people, the general feeling around here, (I'm from the same place as her) is she was trying to make a name for herself not help people.

    Sunstrand on
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  • GoslingGosling Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, Probably Watertown, WIRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    You know, I think this might be the first time since the original capture that Laura and/or Euna got ogled before Lisa.

    Granted, that's likely because the photos everyone kept using was Laura in a tight headshot, Euna looking like she was already in some dark interrogation room lit by one naked lightbulb, and Lisa at an awards ceremony with a plunging neckline. That's really not a fair competition.

    EDIT: ...oh, Somalia. I saw Bill and thought you guys got the countries mixed up.

    Gosling on
    I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
  • GoslingGosling Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, Probably Watertown, WIRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    As far as a hard-and-fast universal policy, again, once you're captured, the proper policy changes from situation to situation.

    But what you CAN do is put out some kind of a warning system for people that decide, for whatever reason, to travel to a country where kidnappings are a factor. You take three categories- journalists, tourists, and others- and for each combination of country and category, you assign a rating, 0-10. 0 is 'should you get caught, you're eventually going to get released' and 10 is 'if you get caught, we're pretty much going to consider you dead from the outset and act accordingly'. People looking to travel to those places then take that information and make the decision on their own as to whether to accept the risk.

    I operate on the principle that no matter what, someone is somewhere, somehow, eventually going to get kidnapped. It's inevitable. So if someone's going to get caught, they might as well get some idea of what to expect.

    Gosling on
    I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
  • DetharinDetharin Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    travathian wrote: »

    Well, for one, in many, many countries carrying a personal firearm is against the law. The US has some of the most liberal gun laws in the world. Most countries don't have conceal and carry laws. Most countries don't have open carry laws. And the laws vary greatly by country, region and city. The last thing a reporter wants to do is end up in a jail cell because they crossed into a city and a cop spotted a bulge in their waistband.

    Actually I was just going to say the last thing a reporter wants is to go home without a story, getting tossed in jail probably doesn't even make the top 10. Being gang raped for several years and living in a tiny concrete box is probably at least in the top 7.

    Other than that, the best advice is do not put yourself in dangerous situations if you can help it. i

    Detharin on
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