UtsanomikoBros before DoesRollin' in the thlayRegistered Userregular
edited March 2007
Veteran squads might be better if you want a unit with good accuracy. Only a point more and they get an actual BS4 with better overall leadership and more special weapons.
That list has a mindboggling-ly low amount of heavy weapons, Gigglio. It just won't do. It just won't. 3 lascannons in 1500 points? No plasma? No deal.
To be honest, I was trying to make the best Tyranid fighting force I could using as many guardsmen as I could. I mean, 12 missile launchers in 1500 points? 12 grenade launchers? That such a stupid amount of templates being shot. And plasma is only necessary against MEQ armies. Just think about the number of lasguns there are..no one is going to pass that many save checks.
Also, lascannons (in guard at least) are overrated. I'm gonna miss half the time anyway.
And I don't think you could have more heavy weapons than that (in 1500 pts, at least).
Right, and you can infiltrate veterans, and give them warrior weapons for free, which are also nice.
I honestly wouldn't have a non-vanilla IG army without veterans doctrine and 2 or 3 squads.
Consider some of the things you can do with veterans:
Anti-CC unit:
Jungle Fighters Doctrine
Flamer x3
Heavy Flamer x1
Power Fist/bolt pistol Sergeant
5 lp/ccw
4 autohit templates, one of which is at str 5.
Anti-MEQ/Terminator "lets all blow ourselves up" unit:
Plasma gun x3
Plasma pistol/ccw sergeant
6 lasguns
7 plasma shots per turn at 12" while moving, and infiltrate.
Crazy suicide anti-tank unit:
Melta gun x3
Sergeant with melta bombs
6 lasguns
4 s8 2d6 attacks on a charge
Mobile 24" Fire support unit:
Grenade launcher x3
Sergeant with storm bolter
6 lasguns
3 AP 4 S6 shots, 2 AP5 S4 shots, at 24", while moving, with an option for 3 blast templates
All of these cost only around 120pts with 10 veterans, which is a steal considering you're looking at a cost of 100 points for sharpshooters, a plasma gun, a vet sergeant, and a heavy weapon on a normal squad.
Plus if you take grenadiers as well it's not like you're losing any useful elite options anyway.
Thanks for the comments. Just finished priming some terrain and ruins, gonna call it good for the day .
PREPARE FOR GLORY!
Couldn't resist.
What would people recommend attaching to my powerfist/power sword commander squad-wise? Just veterans or something?
Also, I've heard that now Deathwing terminator squads can only have one heavy weapon or something, so does that mean my squad of five with two assault cannons will have to remove one of the cannons if I want to use them?
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UtsanomikoBros before DoesRollin' in the thlayRegistered Userregular
edited March 2007
Yeah, only one heavy, and Tac squads come with a sergeant plus four or nine regular Marines, but they can be split into two separate 5-man units.
You could put the Commander with vets or a command squad, ideally.
6 models total, 4 normal marines, one with a plasma cannon, one a vetran seargent.
(or would I have to remove one of the normal marines? And I get what you're saying about squads but I'd prefer a small amount of tac marines and more specialized units in my army)
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UtsanomikoBros before DoesRollin' in the thlayRegistered Userregular
edited March 2007
It's just five or ten in a squad, five's a basic Combat squad (with a special weapon option), ten is a full Tactical squad (which can then additionally take a heavy weapon). This applies to Assault, Dev, Scouts, and bikes (vets can split into two units as well, but they can be between 5 to 10 Marines in number).
If it were me, I'd use him as a sergeant with terminator honors of your command squad. Not because it's not a good model, it's an excellent model, but because a power fist will get an independant character killed quite easilly and is much more suited for someone with access to ablative wounds. So I'd have him be the right hand man of a equally awesome chaplain with crozius or commander with 2 lightning claws .
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UtsanomikoBros before DoesRollin' in the thlayRegistered Userregular
edited March 2007
Well, with power sword he could chose which to use as his main attack, I believe. If he's assaulting a lot of weak enemies he can hit at I4 with the powersword or use the fist when he's more concerned with doing S8 damage than hitting first. Either way it'd be a bit pricey but ensure 5 armor-ignoring attacks on the charge.
Wait, so does that mean that a veteran techmarine with a power weapon/ccw and servo harness can take all 6 of his attacks on a charge as power weapon shots? Because that would greatly improve my opinion of techmarines.
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UtsanomikoBros before DoesRollin' in the thlayRegistered Userregular
Wait, so does that mean that a veteran techmarine with a power weapon/ccw and servo harness can take all 6 of his attacks on a charge as power weapon shots? Because that would greatly improve my opinion of techmarines.
I'd have to look into it further, but would wager the servo harness attacks count separate from the 4 PW attacks on the charge, since they're specificaly listed in the harness entry that way, rather than "arms do S8 I1, gives techmarine +2 attacks." But I'm mostly going from memory here of rereading the rulebook when I wanted to determine how attacks were resolved with multiple weapon types on a model.
I wasn't aware that my custom Grand Master came 'standard' with a pistol... Does that mean it's included in the base point cost of 80 points? I'm using the old DA codex so correct me if it's changed. If so, I guess I should slap one on his belt or something :P.
Anyways, here's his gear list. Keep in mind this is mainly so beefed up so I can get to 500 points without too many models just for an army to learn how to play with.
base cost of Grand Master - 80
Purity Seals - 5
Power Fist - 25
Frag/Krak Grenades - 3
Master crafted power weapon (sword) - 30
Artificer Armor - 20
Point total = 163
I was also thinking of having his sword be the sword of secrets (40 points, making the point total 173), but that might be a little weird with a power fist there too? And can he have artificer armor if he has a command squad?
Well, the servo arm is listed as "Grants the user an additional close combat attack, counting as a power fist".
The harness entry merely states that it grants an additional servo harness, with an additional close combat attack.
The faq/errata says nothing more on this issue, but does state that "the plasma pistol on the servo harness counts as an additional weapon for granting an attack in close combat" which confuses me even more.
He can have artificer armor and still have a command squad.
Bolt pistol comes included in the cost of all DA.
Not sure about the sword of secrets, but unless it's specifically mentioned as being two handed then he can use it with a power fist.
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UtsanomikoBros before DoesRollin' in the thlayRegistered Userregular
edited March 2007
If that's what it says on Techmarines, then I guess they simply do count as additional attacks, and that the plasma pistol ensures they get +1 for having 2 CC weapons (since they can carry bolters by default).
I wasn't aware that my custom Grand Master came 'standard' with a pistol...
Does that mean it's included in the base point cost of 80 points? I'm using the old DA codex so correct me if it's changed. If so, I guess I should slap one on his belt or something :P.
Anyways, here's his gear list. Keep in mind this is mainly so beefed up so I can get to 500 points without too many models just for an army to learn how to play with.
base cost of Grand Master - 80
Purity Seals - 5
Power Fist - 25
Frag/Krak Grenades - 3
Master crafted power weapon (sword) - 30
Artificer Armor - 20
Point total = 163
I was also thinking of having his sword be the sword of secrets (40 points, making the point total 173), but that might be a little weird with a power fist there too? And can he have artificer armor if he has a command squad?
A lot has changed this edition, duder. They're 100pts by default, count as having Iron Halos, frag and krak grenades, as well as a pistol. The only other options available to Commanders you've listed is the Power weapon and Fist, bringing him to 140pts.
You really only need to add a pistol to the model if you want to; since it comes as standard equipment, the only players who are going to insist WYSIWYG trumps the army entry in this care are pillow fuckers.
lol, I almost want to put a bolt pistol in his power fist. Anyways, so what you were saying earlier is that my 6 man unit of marines (one veteran sergeant one plasma cannon holder) would NOT work. I would have to remove one of the marines so it was a 5-man unit, and replace the plasma cannon with whatever 'special weapon' a combat squad can have?
All I'm trying to do is use as few plain marines as possible, really. Scouts w/ snipers will be an option later, but not now.
Also, I'll pick up the new codexes tomorrow -_-.
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UtsanomikoBros before DoesRollin' in the thlayRegistered Userregular
lAnyways, so what you were saying earlier is that my 6 man unit of marines (one veteran sergeant one plasma cannon holder) would NOT work. I would have to remove one of the marines so it was a 5-man unit, and replace the plasma cannon with whatever 'special weapon' a combat squad can have?
Yes. Only a full ten-Marine Tactical squad can have heavy weapons. The 5-man squads are technicaly just combat squads and only have access to special weapons: plasma gun, melta gun, or flamer.
Thanks for enlightening my nubness .
The 5-man combat squads can still have a veteran sergeant though, right?
Assuming they can, what I'll probably do is have two of those and then a devastators squad.
Wait a minute I think I still have this all wrong. Is it possible to have two troops choices with only 10 marines, two of them being sergeants, or are the combat squads you're talking about simply a devision of the 10-man tactical squad which cannot be reduced in number (or must loose it's heavy weapon)?
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UtsanomikoBros before DoesRollin' in the thlayRegistered Userregular
edited March 2007
It's much more simple than your nub-math. :P
A squad is a Vet Sgt + 4 Marines. That's how it's purchased as standard for the Troop unit. As an upgrade it can add another 5 to boost it to a full squad. A full squad can be deployed as two units of five, which count as separate units for scoring and holding ground.
It can be left as simply a combat squad of 5 guys. It can be upgraded into a full Tactical/Devestator squad of 10. It can be fielded as one unit or two separate ones.
Thanks again :P, so it looks like what I'll do is have a full 10-man tactical squad with a plasma cannon and veteran sergeant, and then for my second troops choice I'll just do a scout sniper squad or perhaps 5-man space marine squad. Off to bed for tonight.
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
edited March 2007
Also, your commander dude can't have both a power weapon and a power fist. Both replace his default chainsword and you can't replace the same weapon twice. Also, master-crafting has disappeared from the list completely.
That would be exactly the opposite of how every army codex has worked since 3rd ed.
If the entry specifically says "The commander may exchange his chainsword for a power weapon at +X points or power fist for +Y points" then you're right, if it just says "the commander can be given any equipment from the space marine armory" then that literally means he can be given any equipment from the space marine armory, you could in theory buy 5 power fists for the same character, which would be fairly dumb as you could obviously only use 2 of those as weapons, but you could do it if you wanted.
Edit: Or actually well you couldn't specifically with space marines because their army entry specifically states "up to two weapons from the armory", but you get the point. Is there a DA codex rule specifically indicating that you can't upgrade the default bolt pistol to a power fist or power weapon?
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
edited March 2007
There is no armoury in the DA Codex.
You can replace his bolt pistol with a plasma and you have the following options to replace his chainsword: Power sword, power fist/lightning claw, pair of lightning claws/thunder hammer.
You can also add (without replacing anything) a combi-weapon/stormbolter and/or meltabombs and/or jump pack. That's it.
No MC, no purity seals, nada.
Alright, the list at present: (I did other stuff this afternoon, it didn't take me this long to get it together)
Your points are a bit off, SM min cost for a squad is 75 points.
A Dread's Default weaponry is exactly what you want against nids, but be mindful you cannot take one in combat patrol.
Captain, with Bolter: 70
Dreadnought :105
Assault Cannon
DCC plus Storm Bolter
Marine Unit 1: 80 pts
Sergeant, with bolter
4 Marines
- 1 Heavy Bolter
Marine Unit 2: 80 pts
Sergeant, with bolter
4 Marines
- 1 Heavy Bolter
total: 335 points.
With the points left, you can take another 2 5 man squads with 2x heavy bolters, or 1x missile launcher. Or take 2 razorbacks for the SM squads for more Heavy Bolter goodness.
Uhg. So I'm gonna have to find a new arm for him or something... Well if I can't have a Power weapon and fist, his sword will definitely be the sword of secrets, and in his other hand... are there any left-handed storm bolters?
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UtsanomikoBros before DoesRollin' in the thlayRegistered Userregular
edited March 2007
Sword of Secrets is a unique item to the Chapter-Master. I only know of right-handed SBs, but I glued a plastic one to a left arm fairly easily a while back for my army.
There is no armoury in the DA Codex.
You can replace his bolt pistol with a plasma and you have the following options to replace his chainsword: Power sword, power fist/lightning claw, pair of lightning claws/thunder hammer.
You can also add (without replacing anything) a combi-weapon/stormbolter and/or meltabombs and/or jump pack. That's it.
No MC, no purity seals, nada.
You're right, it totally slipped my mind last night and didn't think to check it
I hope that won't be the case with Blood Angels, I had some wicked assault character ideas. I suspect they'd be a bit more flexible with CC weapon combinations for that Legion over DA, though.
Aren't the people you play with a bit more flexible? I always found half the fun was seeing what weird unique stuff people would use. Unless it's obviously rubbish. I found role-played stuff was fun.
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
Uhg. So I'm gonna have to find a new arm for him or something... Well if I can't have a Power weapon and fist, his sword will definitely be the sword of secrets, and in his other hand... are there any left-handed storm bolters?
As Utsanomiko pointed out, there is only one Sword of Secrets, and it belongs to the Supreme Grand Master. Company commanders can't get one; their options are exactly as I outlined in my previous post, all I left out were the point costs.
Fortunately, there is a left-handed stormbolter that you can use - it's a component for the new Terminator Librarian that just came out on Saturday in the UK.
So, is it just me or are the close combat doctrines for IG pretty awful? +2 points a model for +1 attack at the cost of the lasgun? Overpriced +ws doctrine. Better to just swamp them with standard guard and conscripts.
I'm still looking over the list, but I find all the special options seem pretty shitty and overpriced. Afterall, IG already pay too much for troops, to balance the fact that they can take so many.
Vanilla seems the way to go...
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Gabriel_Pitt(effective against Russian warships)Registered Userregular
edited March 2007
I think I said it before in this thread, it's completely possible to give a IG model the stats of a space marine, but it's going to make them vastly more expensive to do so. That's why, for the most part, you see the same doctrines repeatedly being used, stuff like Drop Troops, Light Infantry, Iron Discipline, etc.
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UtsanomikoBros before DoesRollin' in the thlayRegistered Userregular
edited March 2007
While they certainly can't have T4 S4 or a 3+ save, you have a point. The doctrines seem to be too experimental in their pricing and usefulness when you consider you don't want to be running around charging things even with a higher weapon skill.
Why Warrior Weapons is anything but free is beyond me.
So, is it just me or are the close combat doctrines for IG pretty awful? +2 points a model for +1 attack at the cost of the lasgun? Overpriced +ws doctrine. Better to just swamp them with standard guard and conscripts.
I'm still looking over the list, but I find all the special options seem pretty shitty and overpriced. Afterall, IG already pay too much for troops, to balance the fact that they can take so many.
Vanilla seems the way to go...
There are some gems. Drop Troops, Veterans, Iron discipline, Close order drill, Light infantry, Die hards, chamileoline, grenadiers,chem inhalers, etc
Then there are some like mechanised or jungle fighters that are good for specialized army types.
Then there are a lot that are just absolute crap. Which is essentially anything involving close combat. Lots of people seem to want to do hardened fighters + carapace + warrior weapons and what you end up with is really crappy slugga boyz with t3 and no choppas that cost 11.5 points each.
Edit: For what it's worth, I'm currently running
Veterans
Light infantry
Jungle Fighters (veterans only, for the extra heavy flamer and ability to hide in woods, and fluff reasons)
Rough Riders (fluff reasons, and I need something nice and mobile to sit in my deployment zone and keep people from infiltrating or deep striking too close to my vehicles)
And then some other doctrine I haven't decided yet, but which will probably be either Iron Discipline, Close Order Drill, Genadiers, or Die Hards.
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To be honest, I was trying to make the best Tyranid fighting force I could using as many guardsmen as I could. I mean, 12 missile launchers in 1500 points? 12 grenade launchers? That such a stupid amount of templates being shot. And plasma is only necessary against MEQ armies. Just think about the number of lasguns there are..no one is going to pass that many save checks.
Also, lascannons (in guard at least) are overrated. I'm gonna miss half the time anyway.
And I don't think you could have more heavy weapons than that (in 1500 pts, at least).
I honestly wouldn't have a non-vanilla IG army without veterans doctrine and 2 or 3 squads.
Consider some of the things you can do with veterans:
Anti-CC unit:
Jungle Fighters Doctrine
Flamer x3
Heavy Flamer x1
Power Fist/bolt pistol Sergeant
5 lp/ccw
4 autohit templates, one of which is at str 5.
Anti-MEQ/Terminator "lets all blow ourselves up" unit:
Plasma gun x3
Plasma pistol/ccw sergeant
6 lasguns
7 plasma shots per turn at 12" while moving, and infiltrate.
Crazy suicide anti-tank unit:
Melta gun x3
Sergeant with melta bombs
6 lasguns
4 s8 2d6 attacks on a charge
Mobile 24" Fire support unit:
Grenade launcher x3
Sergeant with storm bolter
6 lasguns
3 AP 4 S6 shots, 2 AP5 S4 shots, at 24", while moving, with an option for 3 blast templates
All of these cost only around 120pts with 10 veterans, which is a steal considering you're looking at a cost of 100 points for sharpshooters, a plasma gun, a vet sergeant, and a heavy weapon on a normal squad.
Plus if you take grenadiers as well it's not like you're losing any useful elite options anyway.
PREPARE FOR GLORY!
Couldn't resist.
What would people recommend attaching to my powerfist/power sword commander squad-wise? Just veterans or something?
Also, I've heard that now Deathwing terminator squads can only have one heavy weapon or something, so does that mean my squad of five with two assault cannons will have to remove one of the cannons if I want to use them?
You could put the Commander with vets or a command squad, ideally.
6 models total, 4 normal marines, one with a plasma cannon, one a vetran seargent.
(or would I have to remove one of the normal marines? And I get what you're saying about squads but I'd prefer a small amount of tac marines and more specialized units in my army)
The PW+PF combo will be ok then.
Or do DA character models not get that?
Man, I need to finish reading that Codex. So much stuff to digest, it's like one of those big sub sandwiches you have to put down and take a break on.
I'd have to look into it further, but would wager the servo harness attacks count separate from the 4 PW attacks on the charge, since they're specificaly listed in the harness entry that way, rather than "arms do S8 I1, gives techmarine +2 attacks." But I'm mostly going from memory here of rereading the rulebook when I wanted to determine how attacks were resolved with multiple weapon types on a model.
Anyways, here's his gear list. Keep in mind this is mainly so beefed up so I can get to 500 points without too many models just for an army to learn how to play with.
base cost of Grand Master - 80
Purity Seals - 5
Power Fist - 25
Frag/Krak Grenades - 3
Master crafted power weapon (sword) - 30
Artificer Armor - 20
Point total = 163
I was also thinking of having his sword be the sword of secrets (40 points, making the point total 173), but that might be a little weird with a power fist there too? And can he have artificer armor if he has a command squad?
The harness entry merely states that it grants an additional servo harness, with an additional close combat attack.
The faq/errata says nothing more on this issue, but does state that "the plasma pistol on the servo harness counts as an additional weapon for granting an attack in close combat" which confuses me even more.
Bolt pistol comes included in the cost of all DA.
Not sure about the sword of secrets, but unless it's specifically mentioned as being two handed then he can use it with a power fist.
A lot has changed this edition, duder. They're 100pts by default, count as having Iron Halos, frag and krak grenades, as well as a pistol. The only other options available to Commanders you've listed is the Power weapon and Fist, bringing him to 140pts.
You really only need to add a pistol to the model if you want to; since it comes as standard equipment, the only players who are going to insist WYSIWYG trumps the army entry in this care are pillow fuckers.
All I'm trying to do is use as few plain marines as possible, really. Scouts w/ snipers will be an option later, but not now.
Also, I'll pick up the new codexes tomorrow -_-.
Yes. Only a full ten-Marine Tactical squad can have heavy weapons. The 5-man squads are technicaly just combat squads and only have access to special weapons: plasma gun, melta gun, or flamer.
The 5-man combat squads can still have a veteran sergeant though, right?
Assuming they can, what I'll probably do is have two of those and then a devastators squad.
Wait a minute I think I still have this all wrong. Is it possible to have two troops choices with only 10 marines, two of them being sergeants, or are the combat squads you're talking about simply a devision of the 10-man tactical squad which cannot be reduced in number (or must loose it's heavy weapon)?
A squad is a Vet Sgt + 4 Marines. That's how it's purchased as standard for the Troop unit. As an upgrade it can add another 5 to boost it to a full squad. A full squad can be deployed as two units of five, which count as separate units for scoring and holding ground.
It can be left as simply a combat squad of 5 guys. It can be upgraded into a full Tactical/Devestator squad of 10. It can be fielded as one unit or two separate ones.
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
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If the entry specifically says "The commander may exchange his chainsword for a power weapon at +X points or power fist for +Y points" then you're right, if it just says "the commander can be given any equipment from the space marine armory" then that literally means he can be given any equipment from the space marine armory, you could in theory buy 5 power fists for the same character, which would be fairly dumb as you could obviously only use 2 of those as weapons, but you could do it if you wanted.
Edit: Or actually well you couldn't specifically with space marines because their army entry specifically states "up to two weapons from the armory", but you get the point. Is there a DA codex rule specifically indicating that you can't upgrade the default bolt pistol to a power fist or power weapon?
You can replace his bolt pistol with a plasma and you have the following options to replace his chainsword: Power sword, power fist/lightning claw, pair of lightning claws/thunder hammer.
You can also add (without replacing anything) a combi-weapon/stormbolter and/or meltabombs and/or jump pack. That's it.
No MC, no purity seals, nada.
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
Your points are a bit off, SM min cost for a squad is 75 points.
A Dread's Default weaponry is exactly what you want against nids, but be mindful you cannot take one in combat patrol.
Captain, with Bolter: 70
Dreadnought :105
Assault Cannon
DCC plus Storm Bolter
Marine Unit 1: 80 pts
Sergeant, with bolter
4 Marines
- 1 Heavy Bolter
Marine Unit 2: 80 pts
Sergeant, with bolter
4 Marines
- 1 Heavy Bolter
total: 335 points.
With the points left, you can take another 2 5 man squads with 2x heavy bolters, or 1x missile launcher. Or take 2 razorbacks for the SM squads for more Heavy Bolter goodness.
You're right, it totally slipped my mind last night and didn't think to check it
I hope that won't be the case with Blood Angels, I had some wicked assault character ideas. I suspect they'd be a bit more flexible with CC weapon combinations for that Legion over DA, though.
Fortunately, there is a left-handed stormbolter that you can use - it's a component for the new Terminator Librarian that just came out on Saturday in the UK.
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
I'm still looking over the list, but I find all the special options seem pretty shitty and overpriced. Afterall, IG already pay too much for troops, to balance the fact that they can take so many.
Vanilla seems the way to go...
Why Warrior Weapons is anything but free is beyond me.
There are some gems. Drop Troops, Veterans, Iron discipline, Close order drill, Light infantry, Die hards, chamileoline, grenadiers,chem inhalers, etc
Then there are some like mechanised or jungle fighters that are good for specialized army types.
Then there are a lot that are just absolute crap. Which is essentially anything involving close combat. Lots of people seem to want to do hardened fighters + carapace + warrior weapons and what you end up with is really crappy slugga boyz with t3 and no choppas that cost 11.5 points each.
Edit: For what it's worth, I'm currently running
Veterans
Light infantry
Jungle Fighters (veterans only, for the extra heavy flamer and ability to hide in woods, and fluff reasons)
Rough Riders (fluff reasons, and I need something nice and mobile to sit in my deployment zone and keep people from infiltrating or deep striking too close to my vehicles)
And then some other doctrine I haven't decided yet, but which will probably be either Iron Discipline, Close Order Drill, Genadiers, or Die Hards.
I would imagine solid resin being more sturdy than standard plastic. plus it looks kinda cool.