I got caught up on the Batwoman issues of Detective Comics today, and I'm totally in love with that book. I really didn't like the art style from the previews, but actually seeing in on the page is a whole other story, and it really works. And The Question backup is lots of fun.
Anyone else reading Batgirl? The writing felt really choppy to me but I'm liking Stephanie so far.
(note I have no previous history with any batgirl outside of Babs from the Cartoons)
I didn't really like #2. Babs is GRR ANGRY to the point where they need to give her a red ring already and she comes off as unlikable. The "You're not good enough to operate in this town!" thing is a little old, especially in relation to Steph, and it's starting to sound like a broken record (she's already been told this by Tim and Babs, Damian has mentioned how lousy she is to Dick, and I'm guessing Dick himself is going to show up and say the exact same thing next issue). And the story itself just has so many cliches. You can tell that the writer came from the world of TV, since the book includes everyone's favorite teen drama scene where a mean character pushes the hero, causing her to drop her books and papers everywhere, and a future love interest helps her pick up her things.
I really want to like the book, so I hope that it gets better. Hopefully Babs will stop raging at everyone because she can't be Batgirl, and people will start letting Steph do her own thing, and this new detective character will disappear and never be seen again. This issue didn't have anything that excited me, and I was actually glad that Cass was being ignored in it.
Anyone else reading Batgirl? The writing felt really choppy to me but I'm liking Stephanie so far.
(note I have no previous history with any batgirl outside of Babs from the Cartoons)
I didn't really like #2. Babs is GRR ANGRY to the point where they need to give her a red ring already and she comes off as unlikable. The "You're not good enough to operate in this town!" thing is a little old, especially in relation to Steph, and it's starting to sound like a broken record (she's already been told this by Tim and Babs, Damian has mentioned how lousy she is to Dick, and I'm guessing Dick himself is going to show up and say the exact same thing next issue). And the story itself just has so many cliches. You can tell that the writer came from the world of TV, since the book includes everyone's favorite teen drama scene where a mean character pushes the hero, causing her to drop her books and papers everywhere, and a future love interest helps her pick up her things.
I really want to like the book, so I hope that it gets better. Hopefully Babs will stop raging at everyone because she can't be Batgirl, and people will start letting Steph do her own thing, and this new detective character will disappear and never be seen again. This issue didn't have anything that excited me, and I was actually glad that Cass was being ignored in it.
Babs should go see any of the number of people who can fix her spine in 10 seconds then go get laid, a lot.
Why is Babs dicking around with Steph anyway? She's got connections to dozens of heroes. There's no reason she should be working with a novice teenager.
Why is Babs dicking around with Steph anyway? She's got connections to dozens of heroes. There's no reason she should be working with a novice teenager.
I'd assume it's because this novice teenager is trying to be Batgirl.
Also, where's Misfit now?
Who knows? Babs just kind of up and left her at the end of BoP. She's about as bad of a mentor as Batman.
She's ultimately going to support Steph in her new role, of course. I just can't understand why when she has all sorts of B-List heroes on speed dial who can defend Gotham instead, and at considerably less risk to themselves.
As for how to deal with Steph, telling Batman and her mom to shut her down seems more reasonable than abiding her behavior.
She's ultimately going to support Steph in her new role, of course. I just can't understand why when she has all sorts of B-List heroes on speed dial who can defend Gotham instead, and at considerably less risk to themselves.
As for how to deal with Steph, telling Batman and her mom to shut her down seems more reasonable than abiding her behavior.
I liked the BoP influence (more the terrible TV show) but yeah the writing and story weren't great. I guess I just liked the fight scene with Steph and Babs where she helps out being the "eye in the sky" or "Oracle" if you will.
I thought it was kind of weird that apparently Cass had all this crazy technology in her suit that she never once used. I guess it fits her character, though.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
edited September 2009
Didn't Steph basically embroil Gotham in a Gang War and almost die the last time she tried to do anything on her own? I mean, skepticism is kind of warranted, I think,
Yeah, but when the new Robin happens to be a four-foot-tall psychopath, I don't think the Gotham heroes have too much of a leg to stand on when criticizing Steph, who is essentially normal but has made some bad mistakes and just needs someone to guide her in the ways of not screwing up. It's obvious by this point that she's not going to give up just because Babs or Dick looks at her mean and tells her to go away.
Batman Family: I'm not crazy about the dark knight having a team. But if you go back to the 'Knightfall' saga, you'll find justification for the modern incarnation of Batman having an extended crime fighting family. After his defeat at the hands of Bane (Which happened more or less because he was pushing himself to hard) and subsequent recovery, Batman realizes that he can't do it alone, as well as understanding that other people have as much as a right to fight crime as he does. And despite what Frank Miller would like to have us think, Batman did give Dick Grayson a choice.
That being said...
All Star Batman and Robin: Great Art, lousy story. Someone posted about how Miller held back his hormones in Year One, and I think that nails it on the head. While there are certain elements of the story here that are worthwhile, it is completely overshadowed by Miller's style, I can only imagine he was doing alot of drugs at the time. Give credit to Jim Lee for beautifully illustrating Miller's vision, however awful it may be, although I gotta wonder what was going through 'Lil Jim's head when he got handed the note draw a chick with schwastikas instead of nipples. I was sort of hoping they would eventually get around to explaining that this is a twenty-something Batman who still hasn't quite got a grip on his mission and identity, even though all the combat training, gadgets, and detective skills are there. It's worth a read for the art.
Batman Arkham Asylum: Omg why am I at work instead of home taking bong hits and playing this game? What a fantastic meeting of classic elements from TAS, current Batman mythology, and cutting edge graphics and gameplay. This game has some of the best easter eggs I have ever seen, it is essential to any Batophile's catalogue.
Dick Grayson as Batman: I haven't read much Grant Morrison, but I respect this bold choice. I only wish they were really moving forward with Dick as Bruce's replacement, rather than as a placeholder until the real Batman returns. You just know that they'll return things to the status quo eventually, and thats a shame because we are talking about a character that is almost 100 years old. Why not move the storyline forward by a generation? We could watch Dick or Damien grow into the role after Dick retires. It's something that has never been done. Maybe it can't be done.
Yeah, Dick at the moment is just a guy in a costume, they're not really doing anything to make him his own.
And I said this in the main game-thread but I would listen to Mark Hamill do Joker lines all day.
I also liked Streets of Gotham this week and the Broker character, dunno if hes new or not but while I'm normally all for Batmans rogues running about No Mans Land style I don't like what Zsasz seems to have planned here and want them to stop him quickly.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Yeah, but when the new Robin happens to be a four-foot-tall psychopath, I don't think the Gotham heroes have too much of a leg to stand on when criticizing Steph, who is essentially normal but has made some bad mistakes and just needs someone to guide her in the ways of not screwing up. It's obvious by this point that she's not going to give up just because Babs or Dick looks at her mean and tells her to go away.
Meh, they're being hypocritical with Damian yes, but that doesn't mean they don't have cause to be wary of Steph. It just means they're being idiots with Damian.
Meh, they're being hypocritical with Damian yes, but that doesn't mean they don't have cause to be wary of Steph. It just means they're being idiots with Damian.
Maybe, but I just question that going "GRRRR GET OUT OF MY CITY/COSTUME" is the best way to treat her, when that approach has never, ever, ever worked when dealing with this character, or really any young hero. You'd think the logical thing would be to teach and train her so that when she inevitably hits the streets at night, she won't screw things up like she has in the past. At this point it's just hilariously irresponsible that Babs thinks she can grit her teeth and impersonate Clint Eastwood and it'll get Steph to hang up the costume when Bruce couldn't even get her to stop.
Steph gets blamed for the War Games stuff, but goddamn if it wasnt more Batman's fault for the most convuluted and 'preptime for shit goign south' plans in the first place.
Steph gets blamed for the War Games stuff, but goddamn if it wasnt more Batman's fault for the most convuluted and 'preptime for shit goign south' plans in the first place.
His plan was to basically rule all of the crime families in Gotham. The plan kind of hinged on him being in charge. Without him, there was chaos.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited September 2009
That reminds me of a plot under Winick before IC, where all these subsidiaries under Wayne Industries were being picked off one by one. He lost Kord industries, for instance, and some other ones. Did anything ever happen with that?
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Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
Wasn't she offered the gig back when they were going to make Misfit Batgirl, which probably would have been a horrible misstep no matter who was writing?
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Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
edited September 2009
I thought she was offered it for OYL. I remember reading that she wanted to make Cass religious (after saving a priest or something) and give her a white costume and stuff like that
The white costume would've been weird, but I mean, it's better than what happened!
I think she was also offered the job to write the current Batgirl series, which is unrelated to her Christian Batgirl pitch. I know she mentioned something on CBR I think about how Misfit was going to be Batgirl in early talks.
I've lost a lot of faith in Gail Simone due to Wonder Woman. Her arcs are really up and down. She's not very consistent at putting out good stories.
Simone's problem is that she has basically had to progress a story while cleaning up after Amazons Attack and the first 12 issues of the Wonder Woman relaunch. I think she's done a pretty good job, considering, and I've been enjoying the book.
RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
edited September 2009
It was interesting if you had zero appreciation for Batgirl as a character or anything written about her in the past. Which is exactly what DC has shown, right?
Gail Simone basically just wanted a way to explore the Christian faith from the perspective of a fictional character who's actually capable of believing it and who lives in a world where Zauriel is flying around. I don't think she put much thought into whether or not the Batgirl character would be well-served in the process.
I thought it was interesting myself, but not for Batgirl.
Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
edited September 2009
I think it would have been an interesting road to take Cassandra down, and it'd be believable for her to go down it. It just wouldn't be what made Cassandra "cool" (being a ninja)
What makes you say it'd be believable? As I recall, Gail didn't even explain why it fit the character. She just said, "Wouldn't it be cool if Cass read a Bible and it somehow all made sense to her? It doesn't make sense to me, of course, but since she's a fictional character I can make her believe things I don't myself believe in, and I find the prospect of that very exciting."
There was a massive convergence of emo and christianity a few years back; maybe the idea was that a character who was already an angsty teenage girl could pull in a new audience if she was suddenly Christian as well. The whole fierce, independent, angsty christian girl thing may have been conceived as the perfect combo to draw in an army of christian emo girls (not that it would've worked).
She pitched the idea around OYL when they were looking for a new direction for Cassandra.
I don't think it would have been a good direction for her. And her idea of Cass starting to call herself the "Angel of the Bat" and wearing all white was just corny and terrible. It would have been an interesting and different sort of story, but I think it probably would have just been a matter of time before someone restored the status quo, since I can't imagine Christian Batgirl being all that popular or other writers wanting to use her.
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Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
What makes you say it'd be believable? As I recall, Gail didn't even explain why it fit the character. She just said, "Wouldn't it be cool if Cass read a Bible and it somehow all made sense to her? It doesn't make sense to me, of course, but since she's a fictional character I can make her believe things I don't myself believe in, and I find the prospect of that very exciting."
Because Cassandra took on the Batgirl name and Bat-symbol not because she liked Bruce or Barbara, but because of what it stood for. After all she'd been through, she needed something to believe in, and it'd be perfectly reasonable for her to find religion.
Now, does Christianity make more sense for her than any other religion? Not necessarily. But if that's the one that found her, that's the one she'd go with.
She pitched the idea around OYL when they were looking for a new direction for Cassandra.
I don't think it would have been a good direction for her. And her idea of Cass starting to call herself the "Angel of the Bat" and wearing all white was just corny and terrible. It would have been an interesting and different sort of story, but I think it probably would have just been a matter of time before someone restored the status quo, since I can't imagine Christian Batgirl being all that popular or other writers wanting to use her.
Yeah, I think it would've been a neat Elseworlds or Annual story but in continuity? It sounds like something that would've been retconned when Gail left the book (which probably would've happened around the same time as she left All New Atom), kinda like her Mad Hatter (who had a hat fetish).
What makes you say it'd be believable? As I recall, Gail didn't even explain why it fit the character. She just said, "Wouldn't it be cool if Cass read a Bible and it somehow all made sense to her? It doesn't make sense to me, of course, but since she's a fictional character I can make her believe things I don't myself believe in, and I find the prospect of that very exciting."
Because Cassandra took on the Batgirl name and Bat-symbol not because she liked Bruce or Barbara, but because of what it stood for. After all she'd been through, she needed something to believe in, and it'd be perfectly reasonable for her to find religion.
Now, does Christianity make more sense for her than any other religion? Not necessarily. But if that's the one that found her, that's the one she'd go with.
Ah, now that I understand your point better it does make sense.
TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited September 2009
It would have been nice to have a superhero who believes in Christianity who
a) doesn't turn out to be a religious zealot stabbing people with flaming knives
b) isn't a retired 80 year old someone who inevitably dies in a story arc by a villain like Joker or Zsasz.
c) doesn't get corrupted just for plot value
While a white suit would be a bit ridiculous, making her grounded in faith would be a nice addition to the character.
Posts
I didn't really like #2. Babs is GRR ANGRY to the point where they need to give her a red ring already and she comes off as unlikable. The "You're not good enough to operate in this town!" thing is a little old, especially in relation to Steph, and it's starting to sound like a broken record (she's already been told this by Tim and Babs, Damian has mentioned how lousy she is to Dick, and I'm guessing Dick himself is going to show up and say the exact same thing next issue). And the story itself just has so many cliches. You can tell that the writer came from the world of TV, since the book includes everyone's favorite teen drama scene where a mean character pushes the hero, causing her to drop her books and papers everywhere, and a future love interest helps her pick up her things.
I really want to like the book, so I hope that it gets better. Hopefully Babs will stop raging at everyone because she can't be Batgirl, and people will start letting Steph do her own thing, and this new detective character will disappear and never be seen again. This issue didn't have anything that excited me, and I was actually glad that Cass was being ignored in it.
Babs should go see any of the number of people who can fix her spine in 10 seconds then go get laid, a lot.
Also, where's Misfit now?
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
I'd assume it's because this novice teenager is trying to be Batgirl.
Who knows? Babs just kind of up and left her at the end of BoP. She's about as bad of a mentor as Batman.
As for how to deal with Steph, telling Batman and her mom to shut her down seems more reasonable than abiding her behavior.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
Because Steph is way hotter than Ragman.
So did Batman with his satellites. Does anyone call him on that anymore?
Batman Family: I'm not crazy about the dark knight having a team. But if you go back to the 'Knightfall' saga, you'll find justification for the modern incarnation of Batman having an extended crime fighting family. After his defeat at the hands of Bane (Which happened more or less because he was pushing himself to hard) and subsequent recovery, Batman realizes that he can't do it alone, as well as understanding that other people have as much as a right to fight crime as he does. And despite what Frank Miller would like to have us think, Batman did give Dick Grayson a choice.
That being said...
All Star Batman and Robin: Great Art, lousy story. Someone posted about how Miller held back his hormones in Year One, and I think that nails it on the head. While there are certain elements of the story here that are worthwhile, it is completely overshadowed by Miller's style, I can only imagine he was doing alot of drugs at the time. Give credit to Jim Lee for beautifully illustrating Miller's vision, however awful it may be, although I gotta wonder what was going through 'Lil Jim's head when he got handed the note draw a chick with schwastikas instead of nipples. I was sort of hoping they would eventually get around to explaining that this is a twenty-something Batman who still hasn't quite got a grip on his mission and identity, even though all the combat training, gadgets, and detective skills are there. It's worth a read for the art.
Batman Arkham Asylum: Omg why am I at work instead of home taking bong hits and playing this game? What a fantastic meeting of classic elements from TAS, current Batman mythology, and cutting edge graphics and gameplay. This game has some of the best easter eggs I have ever seen, it is essential to any Batophile's catalogue.
Dick Grayson as Batman: I haven't read much Grant Morrison, but I respect this bold choice. I only wish they were really moving forward with Dick as Bruce's replacement, rather than as a placeholder until the real Batman returns. You just know that they'll return things to the status quo eventually, and thats a shame because we are talking about a character that is almost 100 years old. Why not move the storyline forward by a generation? We could watch Dick or Damien grow into the role after Dick retires. It's something that has never been done. Maybe it can't be done.
And I said this in the main game-thread but I would listen to Mark Hamill do Joker lines all day.
I also liked Streets of Gotham this week and the Broker character, dunno if hes new or not but while I'm normally all for Batmans rogues running about No Mans Land style I don't like what Zsasz seems to have planned here and want them to stop him quickly.
Maybe, but I just question that going "GRRRR GET OUT OF MY CITY/COSTUME" is the best way to treat her, when that approach has never, ever, ever worked when dealing with this character, or really any young hero. You'd think the logical thing would be to teach and train her so that when she inevitably hits the streets at night, she won't screw things up like she has in the past. At this point it's just hilariously irresponsible that Babs thinks she can grit her teeth and impersonate Clint Eastwood and it'll get Steph to hang up the costume when Bruce couldn't even get her to stop.
The white costume would've been weird, but I mean, it's better than what happened!
maybe it's my second favorite, after Batman and Robin
And her Batgirl idea was terrible.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
The one where Cass converts to christianity? Yeah, I didn't like that idea either.
I thought it was interesting myself, but not for Batgirl.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
Why not? Jesus was a ninja. http://archive.dailytidings.com/2006/April%202006/0412/041206c1.shtml
There was a massive convergence of emo and christianity a few years back; maybe the idea was that a character who was already an angsty teenage girl could pull in a new audience if she was suddenly Christian as well. The whole fierce, independent, angsty christian girl thing may have been conceived as the perfect combo to draw in an army of christian emo girls (not that it would've worked).
I don't think it would have been a good direction for her. And her idea of Cass starting to call herself the "Angel of the Bat" and wearing all white was just corny and terrible. It would have been an interesting and different sort of story, but I think it probably would have just been a matter of time before someone restored the status quo, since I can't imagine Christian Batgirl being all that popular or other writers wanting to use her.
Because Cassandra took on the Batgirl name and Bat-symbol not because she liked Bruce or Barbara, but because of what it stood for. After all she'd been through, she needed something to believe in, and it'd be perfectly reasonable for her to find religion.
Now, does Christianity make more sense for her than any other religion? Not necessarily. But if that's the one that found her, that's the one she'd go with.
Yeah, I think it would've been a neat Elseworlds or Annual story but in continuity? It sounds like something that would've been retconned when Gail left the book (which probably would've happened around the same time as she left All New Atom), kinda like her Mad Hatter (who had a hat fetish).
It just has to be on preteen girls, is the thing
Ah, now that I understand your point better it does make sense.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
a) doesn't turn out to be a religious zealot stabbing people with flaming knives
b) isn't a retired 80 year old someone who inevitably dies in a story arc by a villain like Joker or Zsasz.
c) doesn't get corrupted just for plot value
While a white suit would be a bit ridiculous, making her grounded in faith would be a nice addition to the character.