One, the flow of information is pretty slow in a world without an internet, so keep that in mind. It makes hiding things from Sylvanas, Thrall, and the entire Alliance a lot easier. The Apothecary Society kills their test subjects and is generally torturous and evil, but it's mostly behind closed doors and little leaks out to the Horde or Sylvanas. The Alliance probably doesn't know about the Alliance killed in Tauren Mill just as much as Cairne doesn't know about the Tauren killed in the Apothecarium. Also remember that the fact that you as a player is helping them doesn't mean much lorewise, the people helping them in the lore are Forsaken supporters of their cause or Grimtotems interested in the plague for their own use. That means there's even less avenues for leaks.
Personally I'm sure Sylvanas heard stories about the Apothecaries' horrors, but waved them away as unfounded rumors or as the Scourge doing those things when the results of the Apothecaries' work came to light. They probably brought in Scourge and used the plague on it and it died, showing that their work was nearly complete, making Sylvanas happy. Of course they didn't show her using it on a living thing at the time which would have killed it, but hey. I'm sure Sylvanas is pretty torn up about the whole thing, realizing she was being used, that she didn't have control over the Dreadlord like she thought she did (she probably even swore to Thrall that she had him under her thumb to get Thrall to allow her keep him around, doubling the blow to her when it turned out that wasn't true), and how she made things worse not just for her Forsaken but for the Horde in general.
I see the Horde managed like the UN--where it's a group of races gathered together towards a common goal--while the Alliance is managed like a Kingdom--everyone's supposed to do what Wrynn says--so that's why Thrall escapes pretty blameless out of the whole thing. His job is to help unify these formerly savage/mindless/magic-addicted races and to move them towards peaceful civilization, not to micromanage everything everyone does.
I think you're giving Sylvanas herself a bit too much credit here. Way back in Vanilla the lore seemed to make it clear that Sylvanas knew the New Plague was meant for the living, not just the Scourge. Then again Blizz havn't been entirely consistent with Sylvanas' character, so maybe it's meant to have been retconned that the anti-personnel side of the New Plague was entirely Varimathras and his cohort's doing, and Sylvanas just meant it for Arthas and the scourge.
From what I understood Sylvanas was on some "Don't ask, don't tell" tip just so she could maintain plausible deniability. a lot of the quest text hinted at that's the attitude that was being passed around
Arthas is such a shit Nemesis. But Northrend is cool tho'
I'm impressed by the Biodiversity. Sholozar Basin in my favorite, although I really wish they'd made Azjol-Nerub into a fully-fledged zone as they originally intended.
Also a Grizzlemaw instance. I would have loved that, deku tree: WoW edition.
Problem with things like Grizzlemaw and other manimal things is they don't really make dangerous foes. They are too stupid. Rfk and Rfc were good levels to fight things like that, but after you've banished fucking space demons you really don't have time for bears.
Werewolves and Arugal excepted for obvious reasons.
Arthas is such a shit Nemesis. But Northrend is cool tho'
I'm impressed by the Biodiversity. Sholozar Basin in my favorite, although I really wish they'd made Azjol-Nerub into a fully-fledged zone as they originally intended.
Also a Grizzlemaw instance. I would have loved that, deku tree: WoW edition.
Problem with things like Grizzlemaw and other manimal things is they don't really make dangerous foes. They are too stupid. Rfk and Rfc were good levels to fight things like that, but after you've banished fucking space demons you really don't have time for bears.
Werewolves and Arugal excepted for obvious reasons.
I'm pretty sure I was fighting slightly-larger-than-usual boars around lvl 70-72, unfortunately.
The problem was simply removing Nerzhul from the equation and just making it super Arthas.
How did they simply remove Nerzhul, exactly? There's actually some pretty strong and repeated implication that Arthas is the one out of the equation if either of them are. He speaks of formerly being a shaman, he doesn't acknowledge or answer people who address him by Arthas, he no longer uses the name himself, instead going simply by The Lich King, and has cast away the last bits of him that tied him to his life as Arthas Menethil. From the moment he picked up Frostmourne, he's been losing himself to the Lich King, and I think the process has finished itself since he became the lich king.
Hevach on
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OtakuD00DCan I hit the exploding rocks?San DiegoRegistered Userregular
Sylvanas, at the very least, wants to wipe humanity off the face of Azeroth. She wants the living dead. Problem is, she put the plague in Putress's hands and he dropped it too early. It's confirmed in the Arthas novel that she oversaw the plague's production on innocent human subjects.
As for the Forsaken etcs... Dark Rangers show up in Northrend, and for everything else, Blizzard is lazy. :P
Really, she wants what every leader wants. For their race to be the biggest and strongest and most populated. To her and the rest of the Forsaken, the Blight is necessary for the population of their race. If a guy forsaken and a girl forsaken get busy they don't pop out a living forsaken. The Blight is their means of creating new mans.
So... Sylvanas just wants to sex everyone. That ain't so bad.
OtakuD00D on
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited September 2009
I just want to comment that the "Sylvanas just wants to ensure the propagation of her race" line of thinking is retarded.
"What are we if not slaves to this torment?"
Oh yeah.
Sounds like she wants to spread the love.
No, she's bitter about being undead and wants the earth razed and salted.
And the fact that Thrall has to depend on the forsaken and turn his back on their atrocities in order to get a better foothold in Northrend? That just makes him a shitty ass leader. Same with his tolerance of Garrosh.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Arthas is such a shit Nemesis. But Northrend is cool tho'
I'm impressed by the Biodiversity. Sholozar Basin in my favorite, although I really wish they'd made Azjol-Nerub into a fully-fledged zone as they originally intended.
Also a Grizzlemaw instance. I would have loved that, deku tree: WoW edition.
Problem with things like Grizzlemaw and other manimal things is they don't really make dangerous foes. They are too stupid. Rfk and Rfc were good levels to fight things like that, but after you've banished fucking space demons you really don't have time for bears.
Werewolves and Arugal excepted for obvious reasons.
I'm pretty sure I was fighting slightly-larger-than-usual boars around lvl 70-72, unfortunately.
The problem was simply removing Nerzhul from the equation and just making it super Arthas.
How did they simply remove Nerzhul, exactly? There's actually some pretty strong and repeated implication that Arthas is the one out of the equation if either of them are. He speaks of formerly being a shaman, he doesn't acknowledge or answer people who address him by Arthas, he no longer uses the name himself, instead going simply by The Lich King, and has cast away the last bits of him that tied him to his life as Arthas Menethil. From the moment he picked up Frostmourne, he's been losing himself to the Lich King, and I think the process has finished itself since he became the lich king.
Retconned through one of the shitty novels. Some scene where you see Arthas and Nerzhul in the lich king's head and Ner'zhul is like sup we are one and then Arthas is like naw and stabs Nerzhul and it's just him left alone in the Lich King.
I thought they made the Lich King a pretty great Villain in Warcraft III, they described him as being pretty ridiculously powerful, much more so that the Legion ever wanted. Sure he was an Overmind ripoff, but it was fucking Ner'zhul man how sweet was that.
Now he can't even beat up Tirion Fordring because he's standing next to a fucking church.
Especially about Garrosh and the Grand Theft Auto: Goblins stuff.
Horde needed to regain some spine, imo. Wrynn is a legitimate political threat and war makes more sense than anything tbh. Especially if they include the plot about resources becoming much more scarce due to the cataclysm.
Putting the war back in Warcraft is a good move, getting bored of the whole cold war thematic.
edit: oh lol, you were all already talking about this stuff.
The problem was simply removing Nerzhul from the equation and just making it super Arthas.
I always thought that was super lame. Having an interesting and lore important character go out like a punk offscreen. It also kind of makes Arthas being evil not really make any sense. He's evil just 'cuz.
Arthas was evil by the time he hired mercenaries to destroy his ships then killed the mercenaries to cover his tracks.
Arthas was evil because his daddy never gave him enough responsiblity, or something.
They've probably retconned it in the novel.
Spoilers for the Arthas novel.
Arthas, as a kid, plays on this local kids farm. Arthas is 'in disguise' and thinks no one knows he's there, but it's a shitty disguise and the farmers father recognizes it right away. Everyone decides that the best course of action is to let Arthas make friends with the kids on this farm and they'll let him keep the charade up but they'll keep some guards out.
Arthas is on the farm and one day, one of the horses gives birth. Arthas really wants that horse, so the farmer gives him the horse since it's the Prince and all. Arthas names it Invincible and they are best friends. Arthas really, really loves this horse. As soon as Invincible is old enough, Arthas starts riding it in the yard and training it and stuff.
One day it's really snowy and awful and Arthas wants to ride Invincible but the trainer is like hells to the no, the horse is too young for this terrain and weather. Arthas goes nope Invincible WANTS this I can see it in his eyes and sneaks Invincible out to ride anyways. Of course it goes horrible wrong and Invincible slips during a jump and dies.
This tears Arthas up. He's failed, and he lost his BEST FRIEND because of it. He becomes very, very possessive and perfectionalist, becoming determined to NEVER MESS UP AGAIN because he doesn't want to feel the pain of loss ever again.
And of course when this all leads to Arthas going Death Knight, the very first thing he does is go back to that bank and rez Invincible to ride as his steed in death.
The problem was simply removing Nerzhul from the equation and just making it super Arthas.
How did they simply remove Nerzhul, exactly? There's actually some pretty strong and repeated implication that Arthas is the one out of the equation if either of them are. He speaks of formerly being a shaman, he doesn't acknowledge or answer people who address him by Arthas, he no longer uses the name himself, instead going simply by The Lich King, and has cast away the last bits of him that tied him to his life as Arthas Menethil. From the moment he picked up Frostmourne, he's been losing himself to the Lich King, and I think the process has finished itself since he became the lich king.
Because the book "Arthas" blatantly says that the reason the Lich King sat on his ass for four years is because Arthas and Ner'zhul were having a fight of wills, and Arthas won.
The problem was simply removing Nerzhul from the equation and just making it super Arthas.
How did they simply remove Nerzhul, exactly? There's actually some pretty strong and repeated implication that Arthas is the one out of the equation if either of them are. He speaks of formerly being a shaman, he doesn't acknowledge or answer people who address him by Arthas, he no longer uses the name himself, instead going simply by The Lich King, and has cast away the last bits of him that tied him to his life as Arthas Menethil. From the moment he picked up Frostmourne, he's been losing himself to the Lich King, and I think the process has finished itself since he became the lich king.
Because the book "Arthas" blatantly says that the reason the Lich King sat on his ass for four years is because Arthas and Ner'zhul were having a fight of wills, and Arthas won.
Which is horseshit by itself because Warcraft III describes Ner'zhul's psychic faculties as being absurdly powerful. He played Arthas from the start and made him his bitch.
Only way to redeem this story is to make Ner'zhul make Arthas think that he won in order to somehow become the grand god of super mega death, and even that's cheesy and fucking ridiculous and shit.
Basically the novels and comics can go suck some ass.
The problem was simply removing Nerzhul from the equation and just making it super Arthas.
I always thought that was super lame. Having an interesting and lore important character go out like a punk offscreen. It also kind of makes Arthas being evil not really make any sense. He's evil just 'cuz.
Arthas was evil by the time he hired mercenaries to destroy his ships then killed the mercenaries to cover his tracks.
Arthas was evil because his daddy never gave him enough responsiblity, or something.
They've probably retconned it in the novel.
Spoilers for the Arthas novel.
Arthas, as a kid, plays on this local kids farm. Arthas is 'in disguise' and thinks no one knows he's there, but it's a shitty disguise and the farmers father recognizes it right away. Everyone decides that the best course of action is to let Arthas make friends with the kids on this farm and they'll let him keep the charade up but they'll keep some guards out.
Arthas is on the farm and one day, one of the horses gives birth. Arthas really wants that horse, so the farmer gives him the horse since it's the Prince and all. Arthas names it Invincible and they are best friends. Arthas really, really loves this horse. As soon as Invincible is old enough, Arthas starts riding it in the yard and training it and stuff.
One day it's really snowy and awful and Arthas wants to ride Invincible but the trainer is like hells to the no, the horse is too young for this terrain and weather. Arthas goes nope Invincible WANTS this I can see it in his eyes and sneaks Invincible out to ride anyways. Of course it goes horrible wrong and Invincible slips during a jump and dies.
This tears Arthas up. He's failed, and he lost his BEST FRIEND because of it. He becomes very, very possessive and perfectionalist, becoming determined to NEVER MESS UP AGAIN because he doesn't want to feel the pain of loss ever again.
And of course when this all leads to Arthas going Death Knight, the very first thing he does is go back to that bank and rez Invincible to ride as his steed in death.
Oh and also I think Arthas was supposed to be more 'chaotic good' than anything, which is why its easier for him to go evil - he always had good intentions.
Dread Pirate Arbuthnot on
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
Putting the war back in Warcraft is a good move, getting bored of the whole cold war thematic.
I don't think anyone really argues with this, more war in Warcraft is a good thing... it's just that I'd rather fight for a cool leader like Thrall or Saurfang instead of the fucking dunces Varian and Garrosh.
Ner'zhul destroyed a world, and then damn near razed another. Arthas... killed some peasants and burned some boats.
Obviously the whiny prince has more strength of will than the guy who tore Draenor asunder and then defied the burning legion even after they destroyed his body and forced his soul into a frozen prison.
The problem was simply removing Nerzhul from the equation and just making it super Arthas.
I always thought that was super lame. Having an interesting and lore important character go out like a punk offscreen. It also kind of makes Arthas being evil not really make any sense. He's evil just 'cuz.
Arthas was evil by the time he hired mercenaries to destroy his ships then killed the mercenaries to cover his tracks.
Arthas was evil because his daddy never gave him enough responsiblity, or something.
They've probably retconned it in the novel.
Spoilers for the Arthas novel.
Arthas, as a kid, plays on this local kids farm. Arthas is 'in disguise' and thinks no one knows he's there, but it's a shitty disguise and the farmers father recognizes it right away. Everyone decides that the best course of action is to let Arthas make friends with the kids on this farm and they'll let him keep the charade up but they'll keep some guards out.
Arthas is on the farm and one day, one of the horses gives birth. Arthas really wants that horse, so the farmer gives him the horse since it's the Prince and all. Arthas names it Invincible and they are best friends. Arthas really, really loves this horse. As soon as Invincible is old enough, Arthas starts riding it in the yard and training it and stuff.
One day it's really snowy and awful and Arthas wants to ride Invincible but the trainer is like hells to the no, the horse is too young for this terrain and weather. Arthas goes nope Invincible WANTS this I can see it in his eyes and sneaks Invincible out to ride anyways. Of course it goes horrible wrong and Invincible slips during a jump and dies.
This tears Arthas up. He's failed, and he lost his BEST FRIEND because of it. He becomes very, very possessive and perfectionalist, becoming determined to NEVER MESS UP AGAIN because he doesn't want to feel the pain of loss ever again.
And of course when this all leads to Arthas going Death Knight, the very first thing he does is go back to that bank and rez Invincible to ride as his steed in death.
Christ, what a shit plot device. Bad writing is bad.
Putting the war back in Warcraft is a good move, getting bored of the whole cold war thematic.
I don't think anyone really argues with this, more war in Warcraft is a good thing... it's just that I'd rather fight for a cool leader like Thrall or Saurfang instead of the fucking dunces Varian and Garrosh.
No way to make a war seem believable when both factions were written as being wise and ultimately good after Warcraft III.
They could have kept Thrall and essentially made the Alliance the villains with Varian, but that would piss too many people off because no one wants to play an asshole. So they just made both run by jerks.
And Garrosh isn't even that big a jerk. Some shit he says just makes sense imo. Like THERE IS YOUR SHIPPING LANE.
Actually that bit in Warsong Hold with Saurfang and Garrosh is probably the finest writing in the game. Not saying all that much, obviously, but the scene is legitimately cool.
The funny thing is that the info from the book does not mesh with the game.
When alliance do a starter quest in HF the Lich King says he used to be a shaman.
Darion mentions how the Lich King houses 2 of the strongest people ever. (dont remember exactly whathe said but along those lines).
edit: found em:
The Lich King says: "Shamanism has brought you here... Its scent permeates the air. *The Lich King laughs* I was once a shaman."
The Ebon Watcher says: "You are dealing with a being that holds within it the consciousness of the most cunning, intelligent, and ruthless individuals to ever live."
I just want to comment that the "Sylvanas just wants to ensure the propagation of her race" line of thinking is retarded.
"What are we if not slaves to this torment?"
Oh yeah.
Sounds like she wants to spread the love.
No, she's bitter about being undead and wants the earth razed and salted.
And the fact that Thrall has to depend on the forsaken and turn his back on their atrocities in order to get a better foothold in Northrend? That just makes him a shitty ass leader. Same with his tolerance of Garrosh.
You realize they just put a bunch of sound bites from WC3 when you click on heroes, right?
Same with Thrall. And Tyrande. Even Malfurion (or his image or whatever)
And why does it make him a shitty leader? It's the fucking definition of an alliance. A merging of efforts or interests by persons, families, states, or organizations.
Javen on
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
Putting the war back in Warcraft is a good move, getting bored of the whole cold war thematic.
I don't think anyone really argues with this, more war in Warcraft is a good thing... it's just that I'd rather fight for a cool leader like Thrall or Saurfang instead of the fucking dunces Varian and Garrosh.
No way to make a war seem believable when both factions were written as being wise and ultimately good after Warcraft III.
Well they wouldn't have to be wise and good, they'd just have to be less of a cunts.
The problem was simply removing Nerzhul from the equation and just making it super Arthas.
How did they simply remove Nerzhul, exactly? There's actually some pretty strong and repeated implication that Arthas is the one out of the equation if either of them are. He speaks of formerly being a shaman, he doesn't acknowledge or answer people who address him by Arthas, he no longer uses the name himself, instead going simply by The Lich King, and has cast away the last bits of him that tied him to his life as Arthas Menethil. From the moment he picked up Frostmourne, he's been losing himself to the Lich King, and I think the process has finished itself since he became the lich king.
Because the book "Arthas" blatantly says that the reason the Lich King sat on his ass for four years is because Arthas and Ner'zhul were having a fight of wills, and Arthas won.
Which is horseshit by itself because Warcraft III describes Ner'zhul's psychic faculties as being absurdly powerful. He played Arthas from the start and made him his bitch.
Only way to redeem this story is to make Ner'zhul make Arthas think that he won in order to somehow become the grand god of super mega death, and even that's cheesy and fucking ridiculous and shit.
Basically the novels and comics can go suck some ass.
Uhhh remember the Undead campaign in Frozen Throne? The one where Ner'zhul lost so much of his powers as to lose control over a huge faction of Scourge and almost be destroyed by Illidan?
The funny thing is that the info from the book does not mesh with the game.
When alliance do a starter quest in HF the Lich King says he used to be a shaman.
Darion mentions how the Lich King houses 2 of the strongest people ever. (dont remember exactly whathe said but along those lines).
Well, it's not like Darion knows the inner workings of the Lich Kings mind. And Arthas does have all of Ner'zhuls memories, including those of him being a shaman.
The funny thing is that the info from the book does not mesh with the game.
When alliance do a starter quest in HF the Lich King says he used to be a shaman.
Darion mentions how the Lich King houses 2 of the strongest people ever. (dont remember exactly whathe said but along those lines).
Well, it's not like Darion knows the inner workings of the Lich Kings mind. And Arthas does have all of Ner'zhuls memories, including those of him being a shaman.
Yeah but these are pretty big contradictions to a story that they are trying to set up.
I'm willing to bet that tidbit from the book will never show up at all in WoW.
Personally I think that part from the book is pretty shit. I'm hoping that the fight with the Lich King in Icecrown involves Nerzhul and Arthas fighting for control, or something like that, or at leat a passing reference to them being 2 parts of the Lich King. I'm worried that if the Lich King is killed while Arthas presumed to be the guy in control, Nerzhul goes all voldemort on everybody and flies away. I can see it now. "OOOoooOOOoooooOOOOO you'll never catch me!" It'd be magister's terrace all over again.
^^^ Won't happen. Arthas has purged any and all innocence from his heart (Matthias Lehner) as well as Ner'zul.
Lich King is 100% Arthas.
Also, pretty sure a blue post said that at the end of Icecrown, Arthas is dead. Like, definitively. They don't say HOW (whether it's you or outside influence) but they confirm that Yes, after Icecrown, Arthas is gone.
Putting the war back in Warcraft is a good move, getting bored of the whole cold war thematic.
I don't think anyone really argues with this, more war in Warcraft is a good thing... it's just that I'd rather fight for a cool leader like Thrall or Saurfang instead of the fucking dunces Varian and Garrosh.
No way to make a war seem believable when both factions were written as being wise and ultimately good after Warcraft III.
Well they wouldn't have to be wise and good, they'd just have to be less of a cunts.
Nah but I mean there's no reason for you as a player to want to go to war if you already know that the other side aren't cunts.
And the Shaman thing, I guess you could spin it as he was once a Shaman, because he was once Ner'zhul, but he isn't either anymore. The phrasing and the past tense let's you play with it a little.
But I think it's an obvious case of Blizz not making up their mind and then changing their choice halfway through.
I'd be a little happier to serve under dumbass Garrosh if I understood his transformation from "weepy crybaby in Nagrand" to "fucking jackass one sip of Mannoroth away from pulling another Grom Hellscream" better. I don't think I picked up on that while playing.
Also, I don't care what duties Thrall would have to the world after the Cataclysm. Barring something huge happening in Icecrown to raise Garrosh's status in his eyes, I really can't see a believable reason why he would let the coalition of races he's shed blood, sweat and tears to create fall under the command of an orc that's about as balanced as those crazy assholes in Hellfire.
Well once we beat the Lich King in Icecrown, Garrosh, as the leader of the Warsong Offensive, would have essentially won the war against the Scourge for the Horde. So he gets promoted. Like Eisenhower or some shit. Aaaaand he was pretty much about to kick Thrall's ass before the Scourge attacked Orrgrimmar.
Although, now that you mention it, technically the entirety of the Orcish race went through the same crappy transformation in Warcraft III. We are so depressed and in a malaise, but oh shit some young dick named Thrall showed up and suddenly we are mighty again for no reason. The fuck? At least we got that neat little quest line with the meeting between Thrall and Garrosh, and the explanation about hating his father for why Garrosh was being such a tentative pussy. In War III we got lol Thrall's here.
I just accept the crappiness of the character development because it ultimately doesn't really matter. I like the story in the games, but I mean it's not literature or anything. I can accept lack of subtlety liek this in a video game.
But honestly they did a far better job with Garrosh than Varian. Garrosh actually kind of has a point; the Alliance are the ones who started being dicks first, and it's pretty clear there's going to be war. So the Horde might as well fucking win while they're at it.
the Alliance are the ones who started being dicks first, and it's pretty clear there's going to be war. So the Horde might as well fucking win while they're at it.
Except the horde are basically remnants of an interdiminsional raiding party, theformer scourge and current plague-bringers, and jihadist elves. Sure the Tauren are chill and the horde does have the 17 trolls that aren't cannibalistic blood crazed chaos worshipers (or at least man eating chaos worshipers) but that hardly means the alliance were dicks first.
Shit even the Battle for the Undercity event results from the Horde's goddamned mismanagement.
But to be fair, we're a Horde. That doesn't scream diplomacy or civic responsibility. No that screams we're gonna fuck you up son.
That said, Saurfang for Warchief 2010. Someone make some signature pictures, stat.
^^^ Won't happen. Arthas has purged any and all innocence from his heart (Matthias Lehner) as well as Ner'zul.
Lich King is 100% Arthas.
Also, pretty sure a blue post said that at the end of Icecrown, Arthas is dead. Like, definitively. They don't say HOW (whether it's you or outside influence) but they confirm that Yes, after Icecrown, Arthas is gone.
Is the part about Ner'zhul also stated in the Arthas book? I recall the quest lines involving Matthias but nothing about about the former shaman that I can recall (from the horde-side, maybe it's done for the alliance?). I too had assumed that there would be some clash of wills between Arthas and Ner'zhul during the fight in icecrown that would allow us to kill one or both and depending on how it goes the lich king would survive somehow in the twisting nether or some crap.
As to crappy character development, I don't know if it's that or more that you sorta have to hunt around a ton to find all of it, such as that lost Thrall-based game that was supposed to explain more of why the orcs listened to Thrall and he wasn't some random handjob leading them to glory.
^^^ Won't happen. Arthas has purged any and all innocence from his heart (Matthias Lehner) as well as Ner'zul.
Lich King is 100% Arthas.
Also, pretty sure a blue post said that at the end of Icecrown, Arthas is dead. Like, definitively. They don't say HOW (whether it's you or outside influence) but they confirm that Yes, after Icecrown, Arthas is gone.
So I just saw a blood elf on the paladin forums with the High Warlord title......
wtf......
Human/Dwarf Paladin with Grand Marshall faction switched.
Same thing with Draenei Grand Marshall Shaman. Orc/Tauren/Troll Shaman with High Warlord.
Pretty sure the exact quote was something along the lines of arthas will be dead but the lich king might not be DOT DOT DOT (I think that was about the same time the rumour of Jaina becoming the new LK started).
My bet being a retcon for Ner'zhul being dormant in the LK armour and will return to power with it next time Metzen is asked to present a list of 30 raid bosses for us to kill.
Rami on
Steam / Xbox Live: WSDX NNID: W-S-D-X 3DS FC: 2637-9461-8549
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TTODewbackPuts the drawl in ya'llI think I'm in HellRegistered Userregular
edited September 2009
Is there anyway to add the little tooltip popup for WoW items on a website that isn't a pain in the ass? IE: MMO-Champ. Mouse over item link to see item tooltip.
Also champion of silvermoon a day after 80 woot woot.
After the second boss in ToC, what is the Alliance's justification for sending down their faction champs?
Because when you play alliance it's like
Jaraxxus: bleerrrgggghhhhhhh (that's a death sound)
Tirion: Good job!
Garrosh: Those mother fuckers tried to kill us all!
Tirion: The gnome acted on his own accord! Now, you will fight the grand knights of the Argent-
Garros: Nah nah fuck that. Them bitches tried to kill us, I demand they fight my homeboys.
Thrall: /facepalm
Tirion: Okay whatever.
Faction Champs: bleerrrgggghhhhhhh
Tirion: Good job, stupid. You just made your side weaker because of your pettiness. Now, bring out the twin hos!
Btw, I'm so glad Garrosh steps in there. The last thing I want is more jousting, especially in a 25 man setting.
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From what I understood Sylvanas was on some "Don't ask, don't tell" tip just so she could maintain plausible deniability. a lot of the quest text hinted at that's the attitude that was being passed around
"...only mights and maybes."
Problem with things like Grizzlemaw and other manimal things is they don't really make dangerous foes. They are too stupid. Rfk and Rfc were good levels to fight things like that, but after you've banished fucking space demons you really don't have time for bears.
Werewolves and Arugal excepted for obvious reasons.
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I'm pretty sure I was fighting slightly-larger-than-usual boars around lvl 70-72, unfortunately.
How did they simply remove Nerzhul, exactly? There's actually some pretty strong and repeated implication that Arthas is the one out of the equation if either of them are. He speaks of formerly being a shaman, he doesn't acknowledge or answer people who address him by Arthas, he no longer uses the name himself, instead going simply by The Lich King, and has cast away the last bits of him that tied him to his life as Arthas Menethil. From the moment he picked up Frostmourne, he's been losing himself to the Lich King, and I think the process has finished itself since he became the lich king.
So... Sylvanas just wants to sex everyone. That ain't so bad.
"What are we if not slaves to this torment?"
Oh yeah.
Sounds like she wants to spread the love.
No, she's bitter about being undead and wants the earth razed and salted.
And the fact that Thrall has to depend on the forsaken and turn his back on their atrocities in order to get a better foothold in Northrend? That just makes him a shitty ass leader. Same with his tolerance of Garrosh.
An instance full of them?
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Retconned through one of the shitty novels. Some scene where you see Arthas and Nerzhul in the lich king's head and Ner'zhul is like sup we are one and then Arthas is like naw and stabs Nerzhul and it's just him left alone in the Lich King.
I thought they made the Lich King a pretty great Villain in Warcraft III, they described him as being pretty ridiculously powerful, much more so that the Legion ever wanted. Sure he was an Overmind ripoff, but it was fucking Ner'zhul man how sweet was that.
Now he can't even beat up Tirion Fordring because he's standing next to a fucking church.
Also everything new I'm hearing about the new Horde stuff in Cataclysm sounds awesome.
Especially about Garrosh and the Grand Theft Auto: Goblins stuff.
Horde needed to regain some spine, imo. Wrynn is a legitimate political threat and war makes more sense than anything tbh. Especially if they include the plot about resources becoming much more scarce due to the cataclysm.
Putting the war back in Warcraft is a good move, getting bored of the whole cold war thematic.
edit: oh lol, you were all already talking about this stuff.
Spoilers for the Arthas novel.
Arthas is on the farm and one day, one of the horses gives birth. Arthas really wants that horse, so the farmer gives him the horse since it's the Prince and all. Arthas names it Invincible and they are best friends. Arthas really, really loves this horse. As soon as Invincible is old enough, Arthas starts riding it in the yard and training it and stuff.
One day it's really snowy and awful and Arthas wants to ride Invincible but the trainer is like hells to the no, the horse is too young for this terrain and weather. Arthas goes nope Invincible WANTS this I can see it in his eyes and sneaks Invincible out to ride anyways. Of course it goes horrible wrong and Invincible slips during a jump and dies.
This tears Arthas up. He's failed, and he lost his BEST FRIEND because of it. He becomes very, very possessive and perfectionalist, becoming determined to NEVER MESS UP AGAIN because he doesn't want to feel the pain of loss ever again.
And of course when this all leads to Arthas going Death Knight, the very first thing he does is go back to that bank and rez Invincible to ride as his steed in death.
Because the book "Arthas" blatantly says that the reason the Lich King sat on his ass for four years is because Arthas and Ner'zhul were having a fight of wills, and Arthas won.
wtf......
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Which is horseshit by itself because Warcraft III describes Ner'zhul's psychic faculties as being absurdly powerful. He played Arthas from the start and made him his bitch.
Only way to redeem this story is to make Ner'zhul make Arthas think that he won in order to somehow become the grand god of super mega death, and even that's cheesy and fucking ridiculous and shit.
Basically the novels and comics can go suck some ass.
Oh and also I think Arthas was supposed to be more 'chaotic good' than anything, which is why its easier for him to go evil - he always had good intentions.
I don't think anyone really argues with this, more war in Warcraft is a good thing... it's just that I'd rather fight for a cool leader like Thrall or Saurfang instead of the fucking dunces Varian and Garrosh.
Obviously the whiny prince has more strength of will than the guy who tore Draenor asunder and then defied the burning legion even after they destroyed his body and forced his soul into a frozen prison.
Christ, what a shit plot device. Bad writing is bad.
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No way to make a war seem believable when both factions were written as being wise and ultimately good after Warcraft III.
They could have kept Thrall and essentially made the Alliance the villains with Varian, but that would piss too many people off because no one wants to play an asshole. So they just made both run by jerks.
And Garrosh isn't even that big a jerk. Some shit he says just makes sense imo. Like THERE IS YOUR SHIPPING LANE.
Actually that bit in Warsong Hold with Saurfang and Garrosh is probably the finest writing in the game. Not saying all that much, obviously, but the scene is legitimately cool.
"I don't eat pork."
If they throw in an actual need for resources after Cataclysm, there are legitimate reasons for going to war.
Like we need food and water and crops and shit.
That sounds pretty cool actually. "Support the war effort! Do some dailies"
Or just go and loot an enemy town. World PvP for all!
When alliance do a starter quest in HF the Lich King says he used to be a shaman.
Darion mentions how the Lich King houses 2 of the strongest people ever. (dont remember exactly whathe said but along those lines).
edit: found em:
The Lich King says: "Shamanism has brought you here... Its scent permeates the air. *The Lich King laughs* I was once a shaman."
The Ebon Watcher says: "You are dealing with a being that holds within it the consciousness of the most cunning, intelligent, and ruthless individuals to ever live."
You realize they just put a bunch of sound bites from WC3 when you click on heroes, right?
Same with Thrall. And Tyrande. Even Malfurion (or his image or whatever)
And why does it make him a shitty leader? It's the fucking definition of an alliance. A merging of efforts or interests by persons, families, states, or organizations.
Well they wouldn't have to be wise and good, they'd just have to be less of a cunts.
Uhhh remember the Undead campaign in Frozen Throne? The one where Ner'zhul lost so much of his powers as to lose control over a huge faction of Scourge and almost be destroyed by Illidan?
Guess who knuckled up and saved his ass.
Well, it's not like Darion knows the inner workings of the Lich Kings mind. And Arthas does have all of Ner'zhuls memories, including those of him being a shaman.
Yeah but these are pretty big contradictions to a story that they are trying to set up.
I'm willing to bet that tidbit from the book will never show up at all in WoW.
Lich King is 100% Arthas.
Also, pretty sure a blue post said that at the end of Icecrown, Arthas is dead. Like, definitively. They don't say HOW (whether it's you or outside influence) but they confirm that Yes, after Icecrown, Arthas is gone.
Human/Dwarf Paladin with Grand Marshall faction switched.
Same thing with Draenei Grand Marshall Shaman. Orc/Tauren/Troll Shaman with High Warlord.
Nah but I mean there's no reason for you as a player to want to go to war if you already know that the other side aren't cunts.
And the Shaman thing, I guess you could spin it as he was once a Shaman, because he was once Ner'zhul, but he isn't either anymore. The phrasing and the past tense let's you play with it a little.
But I think it's an obvious case of Blizz not making up their mind and then changing their choice halfway through.
Also, I don't care what duties Thrall would have to the world after the Cataclysm. Barring something huge happening in Icecrown to raise Garrosh's status in his eyes, I really can't see a believable reason why he would let the coalition of races he's shed blood, sweat and tears to create fall under the command of an orc that's about as balanced as those crazy assholes in Hellfire.
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Although, now that you mention it, technically the entirety of the Orcish race went through the same crappy transformation in Warcraft III. We are so depressed and in a malaise, but oh shit some young dick named Thrall showed up and suddenly we are mighty again for no reason. The fuck? At least we got that neat little quest line with the meeting between Thrall and Garrosh, and the explanation about hating his father for why Garrosh was being such a tentative pussy. In War III we got lol Thrall's here.
I just accept the crappiness of the character development because it ultimately doesn't really matter. I like the story in the games, but I mean it's not literature or anything. I can accept lack of subtlety liek this in a video game.
But honestly they did a far better job with Garrosh than Varian. Garrosh actually kind of has a point; the Alliance are the ones who started being dicks first, and it's pretty clear there's going to be war. So the Horde might as well fucking win while they're at it.
Except the horde are basically remnants of an interdiminsional raiding party, theformer scourge and current plague-bringers, and jihadist elves. Sure the Tauren are chill and the horde does have the 17 trolls that aren't cannibalistic blood crazed chaos worshipers (or at least man eating chaos worshipers) but that hardly means the alliance were dicks first.
Shit even the Battle for the Undercity event results from the Horde's goddamned mismanagement.
But to be fair, we're a Horde. That doesn't scream diplomacy or civic responsibility. No that screams we're gonna fuck you up son.
That said, Saurfang for Warchief 2010. Someone make some signature pictures, stat.
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Is the part about Ner'zhul also stated in the Arthas book? I recall the quest lines involving Matthias but nothing about about the former shaman that I can recall (from the horde-side, maybe it's done for the alliance?). I too had assumed that there would be some clash of wills between Arthas and Ner'zhul during the fight in icecrown that would allow us to kill one or both and depending on how it goes the lich king would survive somehow in the twisting nether or some crap.
As to crappy character development, I don't know if it's that or more that you sorta have to hunt around a ton to find all of it, such as that lost Thrall-based game that was supposed to explain more of why the orcs listened to Thrall and he wasn't some random handjob leading them to glory.
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Is this any help?
http://www.mmo-champion.com/general-discussions-22/(epic)-complete-list-of-ulduar-boss-sound-scripts/msg853895/?topicseen
Apparently this is the upload of all the sound files as well http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?xyd1ljnymmc
I want to know more PA people on Twitter.
Pretty sure the exact quote was something along the lines of arthas will be dead but the lich king might not be DOT DOT DOT (I think that was about the same time the rumour of Jaina becoming the new LK started).
My bet being a retcon for Ner'zhul being dormant in the LK armour and will return to power with it next time Metzen is asked to present a list of 30 raid bosses for us to kill.
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After the second boss in ToC, what is the Alliance's justification for sending down their faction champs?
Because when you play alliance it's like
Jaraxxus: bleerrrgggghhhhhhh (that's a death sound)
Tirion: Good job!
Garrosh: Those mother fuckers tried to kill us all!
Tirion: The gnome acted on his own accord! Now, you will fight the grand knights of the Argent-
Garros: Nah nah fuck that. Them bitches tried to kill us, I demand they fight my homeboys.
Thrall: /facepalm
Tirion: Okay whatever.
Faction Champs: bleerrrgggghhhhhhh
Tirion: Good job, stupid. You just made your side weaker because of your pettiness. Now, bring out the twin hos!
Btw, I'm so glad Garrosh steps in there. The last thing I want is more jousting, especially in a 25 man setting.