Club PA 2.0 has arrived! If you'd like to access some extra PA content and help support the forums, check it out at patreon.com/ClubPA
The image size limit has been raised to 1mb! Anything larger than that should be linked to. This is a HARD limit, please do not abuse it.
Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

Let's talk about rape culture.

1141517192042

Posts

  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    There's a distinct difference between saying "by wearing that dress, she was asking for it" and saying "by verbally asking me for it, she was asking for it", and between those two lies a slippery slope.

    In cases of purposeful rape there is ABSOLUTELY no one at fault other than the rapist. In cases of, for lack of a better term, "accidental rape", it becomes a bit trickier. If the "rapist" has no idea that he is carrying out a crime, whereas the other individual DOES know that a crime is occuring, but is witholding that information, then how do you place full fault on the "accidental rapist"?

    because a woman being raped is not an academy award winning actress. she is suffering, she is scared, she is in pain; any false consent will be visibly false consent if you care about the person you're having sex with.

    the problem is that a rape culture is one where people have difficulty seeing that there is no consent, or don't believe that the situation exists. the "accidental rapist" has harmed the victim, and is a danger to other potential victims - why shouldn't there be repercussions?

    I could list a bunch of scenarios where one could easily miss a lack of consent (after previous consent being given), but it would be a waste of time. The point is, we have already accepted that a woman could could give complete verbal consent, and even so it could actually be rape.

    I never said that there should be no repercussions to the "accidental rapist", what I said is that I have trouble with the idea that the woman has no obligation to say "no" or "please stop" in a situation where there is no apparent danger to her for doing so in order to be considered completely innocent herself. (Obviously if the man is known to be violent, this is a different situation.)



    Frankly, I find the entire insinuation to be a bit sexist. It treats women as helpless damsels who cannot actually speak up for themselves and consent on their own. Rather, it actually takes away a woman's power of consent, saying that she can only ACTUALLY consent if a man confirms her consent.

    the man's confirmation of a woman's consent has zero to do with whether her consent is real or not.

    the only thing that matters is if the individual in question wants to have sex.

    what do you propose to do to the woman who was raped but gave false consent? how, exactly, shall the blame for the situation be given to her? what penalties will it carry? will it lighten the sentence for the rapist? i think you just agreed that the rapist should be penalized, so no.

    so what is the point of blaming the victim, then? what will it accomplish except further reinforcing any shame or self-loathing that the rape generated?

    Evil Multifarious on
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    I fucking hate you Canadians.
  • <3Science<3Science Registered User
    edited October 2009
    Instead of arguing over anecdotal evidence or particular situations, would it not be better to try and come up with a concise definition for what Rape is? We can then test our definition to see if it is satisfactory.

    I would tentatively propose that raped should be defined as the following:

    Rape: Physical acts of a sexual nature, involving penetration of any orifice with either fingers or genitalia, wherin one party is not consenting. Consent in this case defined as having made an attempt, either physical or verbal, to prevent or interrupt the sexual acts being performed. If the individual is incapacitated, or for some other cultural,physical or emotional reason unable to convey their desire to prevent or interrupt the sexual acts it shall still be considered rape, but only on the provision that the individual themselves was not directly responsible for their incapacitation


    So I think what is important in our definition is that we should separate 'rape' from 'sexual assualt'. If I grab a womans breasts I would not consider it rape as it starts a slippery slope argument. We therefore need a threshold which we define, from this point onwards it is rape. In my opinion the clearest line is penetration of orifices (although I don't think sticking your fingers in another persons mouth constitutes rape, so this obviously has its limiations too).

    Secondly, and this is the much trickier topic, I think we need to elucidate the degree of individual responsibility. Many women in the world get drunk and DON'T get raped, so we must call into question why those who get drunked, have consensual sex at the time, but then feel raped afterwards, really were raped, because they decided to get drunk knowing full well that they might have consensual sex at a time they ma regret. With regards to the 'male stripper penis in mouth' story, I think so long as the Stripper laid out ground rules beforehand, then we could say he was raped. If he did not make his intentions clear, then regardless of how he may have personally felt violated, he was not raped.

    <3Science on
  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    logic7 wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    logic7 wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    logic7 wrote: »
    but if he wouldn't have minded that coming from a supermodel, wouldn't the defense have a leg to stand on?

    "Well... he's only crying rape because he finds the defendant unattractive".

    If he "wouldn't have minded it" from a different woman, then it would have been consensual.

    but he didn't consent to it from that specific woman (the unattractive one), thus making it rape, right?

    In your scenario, yes.

    That said, I don't know enough about male strippers to know how commonplace your scenario is, if it happens at all.


    try to find videos on it. I know they're out there on the net 'cause I've seen 'em, but I ain't posting it at all 'cause I'll prolly get booted from the site.

    Just google "male strip club" and you'll probably find some. As I said, I worked as a stripper for two weeks when I was 19 (the age I had to be to do it in Windsor, Ontario 'cause that's the legal drinking age). I saw it happen, it happened to me, you just shrug it off and keep it moving, collecting your tips and joke about it in the locker/dressing room.

    Tale of the dancing bear is not reality.

    mrt144 on
  • DraculaDracula DARCUL DAS WAMPY Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    mrt144 wrote: »
    Is it possible to rape a spouse? Or is there already implied consent?

    Can anyone cite such a court case?

    http://law.jrank.org/pages/13228/Oregon-v-Rideout.html

    Spousal rape is rape, just done by someone you had a marital vow with. And if rape doesn't invalidate that, I don't know what does?

    I'm pretty sure that here in Ohio, it's not rape unless she's moved out or has external physical injuries.

    Dracula on
  • MaLibuMaLibu Registered User
    edited October 2009
    Sheep wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Sheep wrote: »
    I've been drunk plenty of times and consented to sex.

    Woke up the next day and regretted it, but I wasn't raped and I didn't get in trouble.

    The fact that you did not have an issue with it the day after didn't make it not rape.

    If a rapist accidentally rapes someone with a rape fantasy who turns out to enjoy it (which doesn't happen but you get the idea) it is still rape.

    People stay in relationships where they get raped all the time.

    --

    If some hobo stole a baguette of bread from my shopping bag I wouldn't be upset either. Doesn't mean it wasn't theft.

    If you're at a bar drinking, intoxicated, and a hobo asks you for a quarter and you give it to him and decide the next day that you regret giving that quarter to that hobo, that does not make it theft.

    wow..so i must be a rapist now. the first time me and sheep hooked up, he was totally trashed. by your definition of rape, i have raped sheep like 9000 times. like the other night, he was ready for bed and i convinced him, in my rapist ways of course, to do the deed.

    regretting screwing some guy or girl doesn't make you a rape victim. if you are drugged or forced into a sexual act, then that is rape

    MaLibu on
  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Is it possible to rape a spouse? Or is there already implied consent?

    Can anyone cite such a court case?

    Of course it is possible to rape a spouse unless of course you are Phyllis Schlafly, who said "By getting married, the woman has consented to sex, and I don't think you can call it rape" because she is a terrible person.

    But no marital rape is now a crime thank god.

    Just a neat little fact, Jewish law requires a husband to sexually satisfy his wife. A wife not feeling sexually satisfied is actually grounds for her to ask the man to give her a divorce.

    Evander on
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Is it possible to rape a spouse? Or is there already implied consent?

    Can anyone cite such a court case?

    Spousal rape is actually a pretty big problem.

    Fencingsax on
    torchlight-sig-80.jpg
  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    Is it possible to rape a spouse? Or is there already implied consent?

    Can anyone cite such a court case?

    Of course it is possible to rape a spouse unless of course you are Phyllis Schlafly, who said "By getting married, the woman has consented to sex, and I don't think you can call it rape" because she is a terrible person.

    But no marital rape is now a crime thank god.

    Just a neat little fact, Jewish law requires a husband to sexually satisfy his wife. A wife not feeling sexually satisfied is actually grounds for her to ask the man to give her a divorce.

    Huh. No kidding. The things yo ucan learn.

    Synthesis on
    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • WinkyWinky Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Johannen wrote: »
    Policeman: "Ma'am, we found traces of your ejacualtory lubricating fluid all over the covers of the bed and on the mans crotch, with no traces of blood or of any damage to your vagina from forced entry. We have a tape of you telling him you wanted him to... *cough* "Oh yeah you sexy"... *aghem* "fucker".... <.< >.> ... "cum inside my dirty little pussy, I love you and your big dick fuck me now please".... *phew* whilst you masturbated his member. You then had sex with him, going on top whilst his hands were handcuffed to the bed and his feet tied together. You seem to be orgasming at one point in the movie... but I had to get a physician to tell me that because I'll be damned if I know what that looks like hehehehe...he...he.... *aghem*. Problem is: you're now saying you didn't want to have sex with him at all and that he scared you even though he is smaller than you and you're a trained martial artist according to this?"

    Woman: "Well, I wanted to have sex with him at the time.... sort of... but I had a little to drink and my standards dropped and now I really don't want to have had sex with him and don't think I actually wanted to at the time"

    Jury: "RAPIST, FRY THE BASTARD"

    what a wonderful hypothetical scenario

    i'm sure that happens way more often than the exact opposite, where a woman claims she didn't give consent and a man claims she did, and the jury lets the guy off because, i mean, what a slut, right?

    I've heard that this is the case, but I've never seen any data on it. I certainly believe it, but it is something I'd like to see more information on, just in general how often rape cases favor the victim or the defendant.

    Winky on
  • AroducAroduc regular
    edited October 2009
    Aroduc wrote: »

    Pretty much all eastern Asian society has pretty fucked up sexual views, Japan's just the only one with modems.

    Edit: And it's way beyond just sex too. Misogyny is pretty much ingrained into most of their culture.

    haha yeah it's just japan definitely couldn't happen here in the good old u s of a, right? what? how is misogyny not ingrained in our culture? How are misogyny and sex unrelated?

    Oh, no, it is here too. But nowhere near as much. It's not culturally acceptable for us to kill or abandon a baby just because it's a girl for example.

    Aroduc on
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    Our society definitely treats women as though they are helpless, and encourages women to behave helpless even when they are not.

    Yes. The dominant culture at least. There are lots of pockets of change thanks to feminism and the like, fortunately. But you can still be punished for acting outside of your gender role even in the most progressive areas.

    Incenjucar on
  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Winky wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    There's a distinct difference between saying "by wearing that dress, she was asking for it" and saying "by verbally asking me for it, she was asking for it", and between those two lies a slippery slope.

    In cases of purposeful rape there is ABSOLUTELY no one at fault other than the rapist. In cases of, for lack of a better term, "accidental rape", it becomes a bit trickier. If the "rapist" has no idea that he is carrying out a crime, whereas the other individual DOES know that a crime is occuring, but is witholding that information, then how do you place full fault on the "accidental rapist"?

    because a woman being raped is not an academy award winning actress. she is suffering, she is scared, she is in pain; any false consent will be visibly false consent if you care about the person you're having sex with.

    the problem is that a rape culture is one where people have difficulty seeing that there is no consent, or don't believe that the situation exists. the "accidental rapist" has harmed the victim, and is a danger to other potential victims - why shouldn't there be repercussions?

    I get the feeling that this, particularly, is not something you're going to find a black and white answer for. It will almost certainly be incredibly dependent on the conditions of the situation as to whether or not the "accidental rapist" can be held accountable or if no one can be held accountable for what was a case of terrible miss-communication.

    For instance, what if the rapist is autistic, or has some other fundamental misunderstanding about human emotions and intentions? If the victim is giving false consent the "accidental rapist" may not be capable of identifying that it is indeed false.

    Does this necessarily mean that this person is altogether a danger to society and should be institutionalized? Perhaps. But like I said it seems highly situational.

    I don't believe in retributive justice, anyways, so all I care about is preventing and deterring further such events. If there were some kind of institutional therapy for being a rapist, and it worked, sure! As long as measures are taken to prevent the individual in question from raping again.

    Evil Multifarious on
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    I fucking hate you Canadians.
  • MaceraMacera Registered User
    edited October 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Frankly, I find the entire insinuation to be a bit sexist. It treats women as helpless damsels who cannot actually speak up for themselves and consent on their own. Rather, it actually takes away a woman's power of consent, saying that she can only ACTUALLY consent if a man confirms her consent.

    "Women" are not helpless damsels.

    Some people, be they damsels or dudes, are helpless.

    Our society definitely treats women as though they are helpless, and encourages women to behave helpless even when they are not.

    Indeed. Just a cursory history you find women have endured things that would have mad the men of the times crying.

    And on a purely physical level, women are discouraged from becoming as strong as their peers, because out society believes physically strong women are unattractive.

    Macera on
    xet8c.gif
  • WashWash Sweet Christmas Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    mrt144 wrote: »
    logic7 wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    logic7 wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    logic7 wrote: »
    but if he wouldn't have minded that coming from a supermodel, wouldn't the defense have a leg to stand on?

    "Well... he's only crying rape because he finds the defendant unattractive".

    If he "wouldn't have minded it" from a different woman, then it would have been consensual.

    but he didn't consent to it from that specific woman (the unattractive one), thus making it rape, right?

    In your scenario, yes.

    That said, I don't know enough about male strippers to know how commonplace your scenario is, if it happens at all.


    try to find videos on it. I know they're out there on the net 'cause I've seen 'em, but I ain't posting it at all 'cause I'll prolly get booted from the site.

    Just google "male strip club" and you'll probably find some. As I said, I worked as a stripper for two weeks when I was 19 (the age I had to be to do it in Windsor, Ontario 'cause that's the legal drinking age). I saw it happen, it happened to me, you just shrug it off and keep it moving, collecting your tips and joke about it in the locker/dressing room.

    Tale of the dancing bear is not reality.

    Are you saying he wasn't really sexually assaulted? Because you're sounding like you're dismissing his experience.

    Wash on
    gi5h0gjqwti1.jpg
  • scrivenerjonesscrivenerjones Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    <3Science wrote: »
    Instead of arguing over anecdotal evidence or particular situations, would it not be better to try and come up with a concise definition for what Rape is? We can then test our definition to see if it is satisfactory.

    I would tentatively propose that raped should be defined as the following:

    Rape: Physical acts of a sexual nature, involving penetration of any orifice with either fingers or genitalia, wherin one party is not consenting. Consent in this case defined as having made an attempt, either physical or verbal, to prevent or interrupt the sexual acts being performed. If the individual is incapacitated, or for some other cultural,physical or emotional reason unable to convey their desire to prevent or interrupt the sexual acts it shall still be considered rape, but only on the provision that the individual themselves was not directly responsible for their incapacitation
    What the fuck, no

    First of all your definition for "consent" is actually the opposite of consent

    Second of all, the part about "not directly responsible for their incapacitation" is just not acceptable and you should probably think about why

    scrivenerjones on
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    MaLibu wrote: »
    wow..so i must be a rapist now. the first time me and sheep hooked up, he was totally trashed. by your definition of rape, i have raped sheep like 9000 times. like the other night, he was ready for bed and i convinced him, in my rapist ways of course, to do the deed.

    regretting screwing some guy or girl doesn't make you a rape victim. if you are drugged or forced into a sexual act, then that is rape

    Alcohol is a drug. So.

    If you and Sheep have a mutual understanding that sex while under the influence is okay, then consent has been granted until it is repealed.

    Incenjucar on
  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Macera wrote: »
    Sheep wrote: »
    mrt144 wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    And wow, it really is amazing how many guys are holding on to the notion that women are witholding frigid bitches who need to be pushed into putting out. And they're all in here, looking for societal permission to coerce and bully their way into sex should some woman ever have the nerve to not be especially interested in having sex with them specifically.

    Pathetic.

    Yes and also deliberately failing to recognize that the myth of man as aggressor and woman as passive vessel is a cornerstone of rape culture with these same pleas for validation.

    Japan = Rape culture. Not that they try and cover their tracks over there.

    No, what goes on in Congo and Sierra Leone and the like is a rape culture. Japan are just perves.

    Uh, Japan has at least one software company that specializes in producing, I don't what to call them, all about raping women and then avoiding the legal system.

    Given that people in this thread have already presented what I find as being fairly convincing reasons that the United States = Rape Culture, I wouldn't be surprised if the same was true about Japan (or, for that matter, where I was born, Taiwan), based on the same qualifiers. In fact, I'd tend to believe it.

    After all, we (and I'm saying this as an American citizen) have produced pornography in various forms dealing with rape fantasies. That's pretty obvious. Not to mention we also gave the world Isla: She-Wolf of the SS.

    There should be a separate category for Nazi Exploitation Pornography. Though what exactly, I can't say.

    Synthesis on
    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2009
    japan wrote: »
    Is it possible to rape a spouse? Or is there already implied consent?

    Can anyone cite such a court case?

    Are you seriously suggesting that someone is obligated to make their body available for the satisfaction of their spouse at all times

    its like an all you can rape buffet

    Doc on
  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Is it possible to rape a spouse? Or is there already implied consent?

    Can anyone cite such a court case?

    Spousal rape is actually a pretty big problem.

    Which is why I question whether it is rape culture or whether specific issues of rape are inherently more prone in specific demographics. To say an entire culture of people (Americans) give implicit consent of rape is ridiculous but that's the assertion being made.

    mrt144 on
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    mrt144 wrote: »
    Which is why I question whether it is rape culture or whether specific issues of rape are inherently more prone in specific demographics. To say an entire culture of people (Americans) give implicit consent of rape is ridiculous but that's the assertion being made.

    It's an issue with global culture. It's not just Americans. It's a patriarchy thing, mostly.

    Incenjucar on
  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    There's a distinct difference between saying "by wearing that dress, she was asking for it" and saying "by verbally asking me for it, she was asking for it", and between those two lies a slippery slope.

    In cases of purposeful rape there is ABSOLUTELY no one at fault other than the rapist. In cases of, for lack of a better term, "accidental rape", it becomes a bit trickier. If the "rapist" has no idea that he is carrying out a crime, whereas the other individual DOES know that a crime is occuring, but is witholding that information, then how do you place full fault on the "accidental rapist"?

    because a woman being raped is not an academy award winning actress. she is suffering, she is scared, she is in pain; any false consent will be visibly false consent if you care about the person you're having sex with.

    the problem is that a rape culture is one where people have difficulty seeing that there is no consent, or don't believe that the situation exists. the "accidental rapist" has harmed the victim, and is a danger to other potential victims - why shouldn't there be repercussions?

    I could list a bunch of scenarios where one could easily miss a lack of consent (after previous consent being given), but it would be a waste of time. The point is, we have already accepted that a woman could could give complete verbal consent, and even so it could actually be rape.

    I never said that there should be no repercussions to the "accidental rapist", what I said is that I have trouble with the idea that the woman has no obligation to say "no" or "please stop" in a situation where there is no apparent danger to her for doing so in order to be considered completely innocent herself. (Obviously if the man is known to be violent, this is a different situation.)



    Frankly, I find the entire insinuation to be a bit sexist. It treats women as helpless damsels who cannot actually speak up for themselves and consent on their own. Rather, it actually takes away a woman's power of consent, saying that she can only ACTUALLY consent if a man confirms her consent.

    the man's confirmation of a woman's consent has zero to do with whether her consent is real or not.

    the only thing that matters is if the individual in question wants to have sex.

    what do you propose to do to the woman who was raped but gave false consent? how, exactly, shall the blame for the situation be given to her? what penalties will it carry? will it lighten the sentence for the rapist? i think you just agreed that the rapist should be penalized, so no.

    so what is the point of blaming the victim, then? what will it accomplish except further reinforcing any shame or self-loathing that the rape generated?

    What do I propose? I propose that we focus on measures that will ACTUALLY prevent future cases, rather than just try to punish the men who were completely unware that they were doing anything wrong.



    First of all, we need a strong emphasis on teaching people (especially young girls) to speak up when they are uncomfortable. We DO teach this to our children, but then we let the media come in and undo all our effort. We need to put more in to this.

    And then, we need to recognize cases where a victim DOES contribute to their own circumstances. If there is a case where it is clear that the man had no idea of his wrong doing, by all means, punish him still, but perhaps require some counselling, or some assertiveness training, or something for that lady who gave false consent.



    We're talking about a situation where BOTH participants could be considered victims.

    Evander on
  • WashWash Sweet Christmas Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Comparing rape to giving a homeless guy money and regretting it later is immensely disgraceful. What the fuck.

    Wash on
    gi5h0gjqwti1.jpg
  • lenore beadsmanlenore beadsman Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Leitner wrote: »
    Sorry, I was being overly antagonistic. This thread's been moving fast, I'm sure you just missed it.

    It's just everyone in this thread is perpetuating this exact myth (count how many non-male on female examples have been used, or the frequent references to rape being unconsented penetration), and portraying rape as a solely feminist issue. It's not; it disproportionately hits women (by a significant degree) for sure, but by challenging it along these lines we couch it in certain terms which are damaging.

    And also, the challenging of the way people dress being a part of rape culture earlier? Squicky as hell, that kind of thinking leads to the burka.


    Totally right on all counts. The government isn't helping either. The UCR defines "forcible rape," which is I guess the only category of "rape" that fits under its "violent crimes" umbrella as:

    "the carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will. Assaults and attempts to commit rape by force or threat of force are also included; however, statutory rape (without force) and other sex offenses are excluded."

    CHARMING. So yes. If you want a good look at how these myths have become codified, there you go. Note "of a female" and "forcibly," because men can never be raped and there's no such thing as coercion.

    Oy.

    lenore beadsman on
  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    mrt144 wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Is it possible to rape a spouse? Or is there already implied consent?

    Can anyone cite such a court case?

    Spousal rape is actually a pretty big problem.

    Which is why I question whether it is rape culture or whether specific issues of rape are inherently more prone in specific demographics. To say an entire culture of people (Americans) give implicit consent of rape is ridiculous but that's the assertion being made.

    Well, we say it about other countries quite commonly. Populations of tens of millions of people make things complicated.

    Synthesis on
    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited October 2009
    There was this girl at my high school that secretly dated a black guy. She's white. I live in MS. So you know why it was a secret. Not many people knew they were dating. Mostly his friends. You know the reason for this as well. They were sexually active.

    After about four months of dating she became pregnant. When she had a mixed baby her parents flipped out. In order to save her relatively minuscule social life she told her parents that she was raped at a party. They filed charges. Guy doesn't suffer any consequences other than public shame because there was no proof. The guy's reputation was ruined and he was harassed by some of the dick bags at school.

    According to the logic in this thread, the girl is correct. Since she regretted her behavior, consensual sex thus became rape. She is no longer a participant in a mutual sexual relationship, but is now a victim.

    Sheep on
    QlBGc.jpg
  • DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2009
    Comparing rape to giving a homeless guy money and regretting it later is immensely disgraceful. What the fuck.

    Fine. So compare it to stealing a loaf of bread to feed your family or something.

    Doc on
  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    mrt144 wrote: »
    logic7 wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    logic7 wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    logic7 wrote: »
    but if he wouldn't have minded that coming from a supermodel, wouldn't the defense have a leg to stand on?

    "Well... he's only crying rape because he finds the defendant unattractive".

    If he "wouldn't have minded it" from a different woman, then it would have been consensual.

    but he didn't consent to it from that specific woman (the unattractive one), thus making it rape, right?

    In your scenario, yes.

    That said, I don't know enough about male strippers to know how commonplace your scenario is, if it happens at all.


    try to find videos on it. I know they're out there on the net 'cause I've seen 'em, but I ain't posting it at all 'cause I'll prolly get booted from the site.

    Just google "male strip club" and you'll probably find some. As I said, I worked as a stripper for two weeks when I was 19 (the age I had to be to do it in Windsor, Ontario 'cause that's the legal drinking age). I saw it happen, it happened to me, you just shrug it off and keep it moving, collecting your tips and joke about it in the locker/dressing room.

    Tale of the dancing bear is not reality.

    Are you saying he wasn't really sexually assaulted? Because you're sounding like you're dismissing his experience.

    I'm saying that a video you find from google, that happens to be tale of the dancing bear, is not an accurate portrayl of male strip clubs and the debauchery that happens within. Or are you claiming that female patrons like being ejaculated in and upon every time as shown by the videos.

    mrt144 on
  • <3Science<3Science Registered User
    edited October 2009
    <3Science wrote: »
    Instead of arguing over anecdotal evidence or particular situations, would it not be better to try and come up with a concise definition for what Rape is? We can then test our definition to see if it is satisfactory.

    I would tentatively propose that raped should be defined as the following:

    Rape: Physical acts of a sexual nature, involving penetration of any orifice with either fingers or genitalia, wherin one party is not consenting. Consent in this case defined as having NOT made an attempt, either physical or verbal, to prevent or interrupt the sexual acts being performed. If the individual is incapacitated, or for some other cultural,physical or emotional reason unable to convey their desire to prevent or interrupt the sexual acts it shall still be considered rape, but only on the provision that the individual themselves was not directly responsible for their incapacitation
    What the fuck, no

    First of all your definition for "consent" is actually the opposite of consent

    Second of all, the part about "not directly responsible for their incapacitation" is just not acceptable and you should probably think about why

    Sorry, typo. :?

    I'm trying to think about why with regards to your second point, and I would like to hear your thoughts on that if possible? We might have to refine what counts as 'directly' responsible yes, in terms of things like cultural pressures and peer pressure and things like that, if this is what you are alluding to?

    <3Science on
  • PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Sheep wrote: »
    According my psychotic paranoid conspiracy theories in this thread, the girl is correct. Since she regretted her behavior, consensual sex thus became rape. She is no longer a participant in a mutual sexual relationship, but is now a victim.

    There, I fixed that for you. Nobody else is claiming you can "change your mind" about sex four months after having it. That's just you.

    PotatoNinja on
    Two goats enter, one car leaves
  • Smooth AlternateSmooth Alternate __BANNED USERS
    edited October 2009
    MaLibu wrote: »
    Sheep wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Sheep wrote: »
    I've been drunk plenty of times and consented to sex.

    Woke up the next day and regretted it, but I wasn't raped and I didn't get in trouble.

    The fact that you did not have an issue with it the day after didn't make it not rape.

    If a rapist accidentally rapes someone with a rape fantasy who turns out to enjoy it (which doesn't happen but you get the idea) it is still rape.

    People stay in relationships where they get raped all the time.

    --

    If some hobo stole a baguette of bread from my shopping bag I wouldn't be upset either. Doesn't mean it wasn't theft.

    If you're at a bar drinking, intoxicated, and a hobo asks you for a quarter and you give it to him and decide the next day that you regret giving that quarter to that hobo, that does not make it theft.

    wow..so i must be a rapist now. the first time me and sheep hooked up, he was totally trashed. by your definition of rape, i have raped sheep like 9000 times. like the other night, he was ready for bed and i convinced him, in my rapist ways of course, to do the deed.

    regretting screwing some guy or girl doesn't make you a rape victim. if you are drugged or forced into a sexual act, then that is rape


    sigged.

    Smooth Alternate on
    MaLibu wrote: »
    i have raped sheep like 9000 times.
  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Synthesis wrote: »
    mrt144 wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Is it possible to rape a spouse? Or is there already implied consent?

    Can anyone cite such a court case?

    Spousal rape is actually a pretty big problem.

    Which is why I question whether it is rape culture or whether specific issues of rape are inherently more prone in specific demographics. To say an entire culture of people (Americans) give implicit consent of rape is ridiculous but that's the assertion being made.

    Well, we say it about other cultures. Populations of tens of millions of people make things complicated.

    I jokingly say it about Japan except then people really do get offended and think it's a crime against humanity when Amazon pulls a specific rape based game.

    mrt144 on
  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Sheep wrote: »
    There was this girl at my high school that secretly dated a black guy. She's white. I live in MS. So you know why it was a secret. Not many people knew they were dating. Mostly his friends. You know the reason for this as well. They were sexually active.

    After about four months of dating she became pregnant. When she had a mixed baby her parents flipped out. In order to save her relatively minuscule social life she told her parents that she was raped at a party. They filed charges. Guy doesn't suffer any consequences other than public shame because there was no proof. The guy's reputation was ruined and he was harassed by some of the dick bags at school.

    According to the logic in this thread, the girl is correct. Since she regretted her behavior, consensual sex thus became rape. She is no longer a participant in a mutual sexual relationship, but is now a victim.

    Did she consent at the time? Yes? Not rape. It doesn't matter if she regretted it later, it matters if she wanted to have sex at the time, and was not coerced or otherwise rendered unable to judge.

    The whole "she changed her mind" issue is vastly over-represented, as well.

    Evil Multifarious on
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    I fucking hate you Canadians.
  • WashWash Sweet Christmas Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    mrt144 wrote: »
    mrt144 wrote: »
    logic7 wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    logic7 wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    logic7 wrote: »
    but if he wouldn't have minded that coming from a supermodel, wouldn't the defense have a leg to stand on?

    "Well... he's only crying rape because he finds the defendant unattractive".

    If he "wouldn't have minded it" from a different woman, then it would have been consensual.

    but he didn't consent to it from that specific woman (the unattractive one), thus making it rape, right?

    In your scenario, yes.

    That said, I don't know enough about male strippers to know how commonplace your scenario is, if it happens at all.


    try to find videos on it. I know they're out there on the net 'cause I've seen 'em, but I ain't posting it at all 'cause I'll prolly get booted from the site.

    Just google "male strip club" and you'll probably find some. As I said, I worked as a stripper for two weeks when I was 19 (the age I had to be to do it in Windsor, Ontario 'cause that's the legal drinking age). I saw it happen, it happened to me, you just shrug it off and keep it moving, collecting your tips and joke about it in the locker/dressing room.

    Tale of the dancing bear is not reality.

    Are you saying he wasn't really sexually assaulted? Because you're sounding like you're dismissing his experience.

    I'm saying that a video you find from google, that happens to be tale of the dancing bear, is not an accurate portrayl of male strip clubs and the debauchery that happens within. Or are you claiming that female patrons like being ejaculated in and upon every time as shown by the videos.

    I'm saying that apparently it happens, as brought to our attention by logic7, and as shown in the videos he suggests we look up.

    You seem to be saying that because that isn't enough to suggest it's a widespread problem, it doesn't merit any consideration. Which sounds like you're dismissing his experience.

    Wash on
    gi5h0gjqwti1.jpg
  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    mrt144 wrote: »
    Which is why I question whether it is rape culture or whether specific issues of rape are inherently more prone in specific demographics. To say an entire culture of people (Americans) give implicit consent of rape is ridiculous but that's the assertion being made.

    It's an issue with global culture. It's not just Americans. It's a patriarchy thing, mostly.

    It's probably also worth pointing out (because it's becoming apparent that it isn't obvious to a number of people) that part of the reason why the issue of consent is so blurry is related to a variety of entrenched cultural norms.

    japan on
  • logic7logic7 Registered User
    edited October 2009
    how about this:

    Guys, so you're 100% clear on whether you're having consentual sex, just record it with a cam and some form of audio recorder. That way, there's near ZERO chance you're gonna get convicted for rape since you have evidence to the contrary.

    Believe it or not, this is EXACTLY what a good number of rappers started doing after Tupac was convicted of raping a fan. All consent to sex is caught on tape (many of them have surveillance running in their homes partially for this reason).

    of course, one was imprisoned for this very thing. Mystikal was brought up on rape and extortion charges, which he denied, but video footage of the event showed him to be a dirty liar. He's due out of jail in January 2010.

    logic7 on
  • scrivenerjonesscrivenerjones Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    <3Science wrote: »
    <3Science wrote: »
    Instead of arguing over anecdotal evidence or particular situations, would it not be better to try and come up with a concise definition for what Rape is? We can then test our definition to see if it is satisfactory.

    I would tentatively propose that raped should be defined as the following:

    Rape: Physical acts of a sexual nature, involving penetration of any orifice with either fingers or genitalia, wherin one party is not consenting. Consent in this case defined as having NOT made an attempt, either physical or verbal, to prevent or interrupt the sexual acts being performed. If the individual is incapacitated, or for some other cultural,physical or emotional reason unable to convey their desire to prevent or interrupt the sexual acts it shall still be considered rape, but only on the provision that the individual themselves was not directly responsible for their incapacitation
    What the fuck, no

    First of all your definition for "consent" is actually the opposite of consent

    Second of all, the part about "not directly responsible for their incapacitation" is just not acceptable and you should probably think about why

    Sorry, typo. :?

    I'm trying to think about why with regards to your second point, and I would like to hear your thoughts on that if possible? We might have to refine what counts as 'directly' responsible yes, in terms of things like cultural pressures and peer pressure and things like that, if this is what you are alluding to?

    An implication of your definition is that, if you get blackout drunk at a party, and three guys decide to have vaginal, oral and anal sex with your inert body, and insert a Snapple bottle, a can of juice, and a pool cue in your various orifices, then you weren't raped. That doesn't work for me.

    scrivenerjones on
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    First of all, we need a strong emphasis on teaching people (especially young girls) to speak up when they are uncomfortable. We DO teach this to our children, but then we let the media come in and undo all our effort. We need to put more in to this.

    And then, we need to recognize cases where a victim DOES contribute to their own circumstances. If there is a case where it is clear that the man had no idea of his wrong doing, by all means, punish him still, but perhaps require some counselling, or some assertiveness training, or something for that lady who gave false consent.

    Why so much focus on the victims?

    How about teaching boys to not be rapists?

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    mrt144 wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote: »
    mrt144 wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Is it possible to rape a spouse? Or is there already implied consent?

    Can anyone cite such a court case?

    Spousal rape is actually a pretty big problem.

    Which is why I question whether it is rape culture or whether specific issues of rape are inherently more prone in specific demographics. To say an entire culture of people (Americans) give implicit consent of rape is ridiculous but that's the assertion being made.

    Well, we say it about other cultures. Populations of tens of millions of people make things complicated.

    I jokingly say it about Japan except then people really do get offended and think it's a crime against humanity when Amazon pulls a specific rape based game.

    See my Isla: She Wolf of the SS comment. Which is not only available on Amazon, it has multiple pages.

    o_O

    But no, I understand where you're coming from. I'm just doing my part to very gently push in the direction away from all-encompassing stereotypes for tens or hundreds of millions of people (not just Japan by any means either).

    Synthesis on
    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • MaceraMacera Registered User
    edited October 2009
    Feral wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    First of all, we need a strong emphasis on teaching people (especially young girls) to speak up when they are uncomfortable. We DO teach this to our children, but then we let the media come in and undo all our effort. We need to put more in to this.

    And then, we need to recognize cases where a victim DOES contribute to their own circumstances. If there is a case where it is clear that the man had no idea of his wrong doing, by all means, punish him still, but perhaps require some counselling, or some assertiveness training, or something for that lady who gave false consent.

    Why so much focus on the victims?

    How about teaching boys to not be rapists?

    cuz its not like us men can be expected to control ourselves wit all dat hot tail amirtie bro?

    Macera on
    xet8c.gif
  • MaLibuMaLibu Registered User
    edited October 2009
    Sheep wrote: »
    According my psychotic paranoid conspiracy theories in this thread, the girl is correct. Since she regretted her behavior, consensual sex thus became rape. She is no longer a participant in a mutual sexual relationship, but is now a victim.

    There, I fixed that for you. Nobody else is claiming you can "change your mind" about sex four months after having it. That's just you.

    but its okay after you wake up the next morning with the one night stand you picked up at the bar?

    MaLibu on
This discussion has been closed.