Club PA 2.0 has arrived! If you'd like to access some extra PA content and help support the forums, check it out at patreon.com/ClubPA
The image size limit has been raised to 1mb! Anything larger than that should be linked to. This is a HARD limit, please do not abuse it.
Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

Let's talk about rape culture.

1363738394042»

Posts

  • Bliss 101Bliss 101 regular Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    This debate over the exact purpose and usefulness of an imaginary note is ridiculous.

    Why is it difficult to understand that the phrasing of the note leaving thing was intended as humorous? How is it even possible that, to some, "Schrödinger's Rapist" doesn't seem so suggest anything about the overall tone of that article?

    Bliss 101 on
    MSL59.jpg
  • The CatThe Cat regular Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Kagera wrote: »
    ....WHO DO YOU THINK THAT FRIEND IS GOING TO TALK TO IF YOU DON'T TURN UP YOU JACKASS?

    The article doesn't mean that a note DIRECTLY TO THE POLICE IS THE SOLE METHOD OF LEAVING INFORMATION BEHIND.

    Yeesh.

    why do the cops need the note if the friends already knows?

    do you understand what I am saying about the note being "too much"?

    Why is it too much?

    Why is taking five seconds to write on paper too much?

    why is taking a second to wash your hands ever hour too much?

    Oh, so now your paranoid strawfeminist also suffers chronic OCD?

    Fuck it, I'm reporting you. This is ridiculous.

    The Cat on
    tmsig.jpg
  • EvanderEvander regular Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    get better friends

    You make me miss arguing with Podly. Holy fuck.

    don't you understand hyperbole?

    Evander on
  • The Black HunterThe Black Hunter regular Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Evander, she is leaving behind the details of the guy involved, not even giving them to her friend, just in case something happens. by your logic no girls should go on any dates ever

    The Black Hunter on
  • KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    Kagera wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Kagera wrote: »
    ....WHO DO YOU THINK THAT FRIEND IS GOING TO TALK TO IF YOU DON'T TURN UP YOU JACKASS?

    The article doesn't mean that a note DIRECTLY TO THE POLICE IS THE SOLE METHOD OF LEAVING INFORMATION BEHIND.

    Yeesh.

    why do the cops need the note if the friends already knows?

    do you understand what I am saying about the note being "too much"?

    Friends forget, paper doesn't.

    get better friends

    I'll remember to add photographic memory to my requirements for friendship ass.

    Kagera on
    My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    get better friends

    You make me miss arguing with Podly. Holy fuck.

    don't you understand hyperbole?

    That is not hyperbole. If anything it would be sarcasm.

    Shit, where is Ege. I miss Ege now.

    Incenjucar on
  • EvanderEvander regular Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    The Cat wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Kagera wrote: »
    ....WHO DO YOU THINK THAT FRIEND IS GOING TO TALK TO IF YOU DON'T TURN UP YOU JACKASS?

    The article doesn't mean that a note DIRECTLY TO THE POLICE IS THE SOLE METHOD OF LEAVING INFORMATION BEHIND.

    Yeesh.

    why do the cops need the note if the friends already knows?

    do you understand what I am saying about the note being "too much"?

    Why is it too much?

    Why is taking five seconds to write on paper too much?

    why is taking a second to wash your hands ever hour too much?

    Oh, so now your paranoid strawfeminist also suffers chronic OCD?

    Fuck it, I'm reporting you. This is ridiculous.

    No, I'm comparing paranoia to OCD

    both are conditions that compel the sufferer to perform behaviors that take away from the rest of their day, even if in small increments.

    Evander on
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Do you have some kind of grudge against Post-It notes or something?

    Incenjucar on
  • EvanderEvander regular Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Kagera wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Kagera wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Kagera wrote: »
    ....WHO DO YOU THINK THAT FRIEND IS GOING TO TALK TO IF YOU DON'T TURN UP YOU JACKASS?

    The article doesn't mean that a note DIRECTLY TO THE POLICE IS THE SOLE METHOD OF LEAVING INFORMATION BEHIND.

    Yeesh.

    why do the cops need the note if the friends already knows?

    do you understand what I am saying about the note being "too much"?

    Friends forget, paper doesn't.

    get better friends

    I'll remember to add photographic memory to my requirements for friendship ass.

    I love the way you removed the actually important line of the post.

    you're the one who brought insults in to this whole thing. I've been trying to remain civil, clearly you can't, so I think it's best that the topic just be dropped.

    Evander on
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Would the school board still work to defend seven murderers, and the fifteen+ kids who stood around and watched their classmate die?

    I am having difficulty finding any material about this incident aside from what is in the cnn article in the OP, but I have a very hard time believing the school board's actions would have been very different if this case had been a murder, yes.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    NREqxl5.jpg
    do you lack faith, brother?
    or do you believe?
  • EvanderEvander regular Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    So, Kitty Genovese.

    She was a murder case, not just a rape case, but still an instance of bystanders generally doing nothing.

    Evander on
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Yes, it is possible that the bystanders in question would have acted the same way if it was a murder, and the behavior is not strictly related to rape, and may or may not be attributed to the rape culture.

    However, it does occur that crowds egg-on rape, and join in on it. Kitty was not being stabbed by the bystanders.

    Incenjucar on
  • The CatThe Cat regular Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    So, Kitty Genovese.

    She was a murder case, not just a rape case, but still an instance of bystanders generally doing nothing.

    Yes, but they weren't in the alley with her and also it doesn't at all ameliorate the severe awfulness of the event, in either case. So who cares?

    The Cat on
    tmsig.jpg
  • Dread Pirate ArbuthnotDread Pirate Arbuthnot OMG WRIGGLY T O X O P L A S M O S I SRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Would the school board still work to defend seven murderers, and the fifteen+ kids who stood around and watched their classmate die?

    I am having difficulty finding any material about this incident aside from what is in the cnn article in the OP, but I have a very hard time believing the school board's actions would have been very different if this case had been a murder, yes.

    These are details a commenter on a blog posted from her local news affilate (she lives in the area). Take with as much salt as you like.
    A few more details from the local (SF) news last night:

    ---the dance had 4 police officers in attendance inside the gym or wherever the dance took place
    ---there were 2 "site supervisors" on duty whose job was to patrol the grounds of the school during the dance
    ---the site supervisors were sent home at 9 PM because everything was "ok" at the dance
    ---the school has a notorious dark and secluded area where kids hang out and drink---just the sort of area the site supervisors should be patrolling during a night time school function, and, not coincidentally, where the rapes happened to occur
    ---the assault commenced at 9:30 PM---after the site supervisors left---not a coincidence, either, eh?
    ---there was speculation that the site supervisors were let off at 9:00 to avoid paying them overtime, for you know, doing their jobs, protecting the students
    ---someone at an after-dance party heard talk about the gang rape and finally called in a tip, so the girl was finally found around midnight
    ---a few young men have been arrested but they are looking for up to 16 different people.
    school district spokesman identified as Marin Trujillo (possibly Martin), saying "Right now we're focusing on making sure that the students at the school have a safe environment, like they've always had at Richmond High. We have counseling services available. The dance itself was a success in terms of safety- nothing happened at the event. So we are currently exploring our protocols to make sure that we can expanding them to make sure that this isolated incident doesn't get repeated again."

    Dread Pirate Arbuthnot on
  • EvanderEvander regular Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    The Cat wrote: »
    doesn't at all ameliorate the severe awfulness of the event, in either case.

    what the fuck are you talking about? I'm not saying that it some how makes things better.

    I'm responding to what cass said about people reacting differently if this was a murder.

    OBVIOUSLY both situations were absolutely horrible.

    Evander on
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    so where do we get to the school board "defending" rape, again?

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    NREqxl5.jpg
    do you lack faith, brother?
    or do you believe?
  • Dread Pirate ArbuthnotDread Pirate Arbuthnot OMG WRIGGLY T O X O P L A S M O S I SRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    so where do we get to the school board "defending" rape, again?

    "Right now we're focusing on making sure that the students at the school have a safe environment, like they've always had at Richmond High. We have counseling services available. The dance itself was a success in terms of safety- nothing happened at the event. So we are currently exploring our protocols to make sure that we can expanding them to make sure that this isolated incident doesn't get repeated again."

    You don't see anything wrong with this guy saying that 20+ students engaging in a gang rape, with 16 of them still walking free, is an isolated incident that will never happen again? Saying that the dance is a success when it could be argued that the school did not prepare sufficiently for this sort of thing? Of course they're not going to go "bitches ain't nothing but tricks and hos", but this is trying to smooth it over and make it go away.

    Dread Pirate Arbuthnot on
  • The CatThe Cat regular Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2009
    I think Cass is right. The Genovese case isn't really comparable; what happened there was that everyone could hear/see something bad at a distance, could see each other watching, and so all assumed that someone else had already called the cops. None of those factors are apparent in this current one.

    The psychology of pack rape is fucking weird.

    The Cat on
    tmsig.jpg
  • KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    'nothing happened at the event', maybe?

    Kagera on
    My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    so where do we get to the school board "defending" rape, again?

    "Right now we're focusing on making sure that the students at the school have a safe environment, like they've always had at Richmond High. We have counseling services available. The dance itself was a success in terms of safety- nothing happened at the event. So we are currently exploring our protocols to make sure that we can expanding them to make sure that this isolated incident doesn't get repeated again."

    You don't see anything wrong with this guy saying that 20+ students engaging in a gang rape, with 16 of them still walking free, is an isolated incident that will never happen again? Saying that the dance is a success when it could be argued that the school did not prepare sufficiently for this sort of thing? Of course they're not going to go "bitches ain't nothing but tricks and hos", but this is trying to smooth it over and make it go away.

    right, and they would be saying exactly the same thing if she had died. This is basic crisis management, not "defending rape" or whatever.

    The safety deficiencies at the event left her just as vulnerable to murder as they did to rape.

    ed: and I mean, unless there is a history of this happening at their dances or something, this is an isolated incident

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    NREqxl5.jpg
    do you lack faith, brother?
    or do you believe?
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I just hope the poor girl didn't get knocked up.

    Because you just know some asshole will demand she keep it.

    Incenjucar on
  • Dread Pirate ArbuthnotDread Pirate Arbuthnot OMG WRIGGLY T O X O P L A S M O S I SRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    so where do we get to the school board "defending" rape, again?

    "Right now we're focusing on making sure that the students at the school have a safe environment, like they've always had at Richmond High. We have counseling services available. The dance itself was a success in terms of safety- nothing happened at the event. So we are currently exploring our protocols to make sure that we can expanding them to make sure that this isolated incident doesn't get repeated again."

    You don't see anything wrong with this guy saying that 20+ students engaging in a gang rape, with 16 of them still walking free, is an isolated incident that will never happen again? Saying that the dance is a success when it could be argued that the school did not prepare sufficiently for this sort of thing? Of course they're not going to go "bitches ain't nothing but tricks and hos", but this is trying to smooth it over and make it go away.

    right, and they would be saying exactly the same thing if she had died. This is basic crisis management, not "defending rape" or whatever.

    The safety deficiencies at the event left her just as vulnerable to murder as they did to rape.

    I would be shocked if they said "the dance itself was a success in terms of safety - nothing happened at the event" if a student died.

    ed: You think 20+ students engaging in a date rape with 16+ walking free is the equation for a single rape? If justice is not properly served, this WILL happen again. There are 16+ students from a single school who are either rapists or will actively cheer on a rape that nearly killed a girl. And there's only one willing to phone the cops. I guarantee that more rapes will happen if this isn't cracked down on so hard.

    Dread Pirate Arbuthnot on
  • ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit I'm a good person yes it's trueRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Kagera wrote: »
    'nothing happened at the event', maybe?

    Yeah, that bit is pretty galling.

    Deliberately distancing it from the school.

    Elldren on
    fuck gendered marketing
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Elldren wrote: »
    Kagera wrote: »
    'nothing happened at the event', maybe?

    Yeah, that bit is pretty galling.

    Deliberately distancing it from the school.

    Well she wasn't raped on the dance floor, so it doesn't count.

    Incenjucar on
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    so where do we get to the school board "defending" rape, again?

    "Right now we're focusing on making sure that the students at the school have a safe environment, like they've always had at Richmond High. We have counseling services available. The dance itself was a success in terms of safety- nothing happened at the event. So we are currently exploring our protocols to make sure that we can expanding them to make sure that this isolated incident doesn't get repeated again."

    You don't see anything wrong with this guy saying that 20+ students engaging in a gang rape, with 16 of them still walking free, is an isolated incident that will never happen again? Saying that the dance is a success when it could be argued that the school did not prepare sufficiently for this sort of thing? Of course they're not going to go "bitches ain't nothing but tricks and hos", but this is trying to smooth it over and make it go away.

    right, and they would be saying exactly the same thing if she had died. This is basic crisis management, not "defending rape" or whatever.

    The safety deficiencies at the event left her just as vulnerable to murder as they did to rape.

    I would be shocked if they said "the dance itself was a success in terms of safety - nothing happened at the event" if a student died.

    Sure he would be. It might be callous, but again, this is really basic crisis management. Play up the things you did right, and don't say shit about what you did wrong until you know what actually happened and what you're going to do about it.

    And I mean, even if I agree that this statement is inappropriately careless in the sense of not expressing empathy for the victim, you're making a huge reach to claim that it amounts to defending rape.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    NREqxl5.jpg
    do you lack faith, brother?
    or do you believe?
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    The incident is really kind of a complex topic and, as a whole, is not the best example to use on a topic that confuses so many people to begin with.

    Incenjucar on
  • PonyPony regular Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    The Cat wrote: »
    I think Cass is right. The Genovese case isn't really comparable; what happened there was that everyone could hear/see something bad at a distance, could see each other watching, and so all assumed that someone else had already called the cops. None of those factors are apparent in this current one.

    The psychology of pack rape is fucking weird.

    I got really into this subject as it relates to shit that goes down in Africa, and it is fucked up.

    It's basically small scale dehumanization of the minority, the old human standby that's allowed countries to commit genocide and shit over the course of history.

    You see the victim as an inferior, as a not-person, and your fellow rapists as people. You justify your behavior to yourself by "everybody else is doing it" and humans being social animals are easy to latch onto that as an excuse.

    It does not excuse it at all, but it does make the psychology of it really basic and simple to understand.

    When you combine that kind of group psychology with the scapegoating that goes on in high school, it is horrifying and yet not really surprising that this sort of thing happens.

    I would not be surprised at all if this girl wasn't well-regarded by many of her peers and was called a bitch, loser, a slut, little miss perfect, the weird kid, etc.

    Does she deserve any of that? Absolutely not. But dehumanization and scapegoating is something that happens in basically every juvenile peer group ever. There's always the kids who are ostracized, tormented, and treated like dogshit by others. Alternately, there are the kids who end up hated by the majority of their peers because they excel or are well-regarded by a select few. If this girl wasn't considered a loser, it wouldn't surprise me if she was one of the more popular girls either.

    Usually, the victim of juvenile group violence, sexual or otherwise, is a person who for whatever (often arbitrary) reason has been set apart for torment and ridicule.

    Is that the case here? I have no idea. But it is a common thing with juvenile group violence and it would not surprise me at all if it was the case in this instance.

    It is all too easy for nobody to feel sorry for the "loser kid" that everyone is tormenting, even if they're being gang raped it is not unfathomable to me that there would be other people standing around laughing about it.

    Teenagers are proto-people. They're not adults, and the way our culture brings them up and treats them leaves them in a state of unfinished adult development for about 6-10 years. In that half-cooked state, they are capable of all sorts of fucked up shit because they don't even think like adults do, but they think just enough like adults to do a lot worse to someone than playground torments like mud in the hair.

    Instead, they gang-rape.

    Pony on
  • The CatThe Cat regular Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2009
    Explains some of it, but its also often a bizarre homosocial bonding ritual (hence the way it crops up around sports teams, the military, gangs, and similarly isolated and structured social groups so often). One could go on, but its kind of depressing.

    The Cat on
    tmsig.jpg
  • PonyPony regular Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    The Cat wrote: »
    Explains some of it, but its also often a bizarre homosocial bonding ritual (hence the way it crops up around sports teams, the military, gangs, and similarly isolated and structured social groups so often). One could go on, but its kind of depressing.

    As a homosocial bonding ritual it's especially commonplace in Africa, which is where my studying of the subject first started.

    This is all speculation, of course, but it honestly wouldn't surprise me if I was right.

    When I was in high school there was an incident of a girl who was violently and sexually abused by other girls and it was a pretty good example of the kind of shit i am talking about.

    Pony on
  • EvanderEvander regular Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    The Cat wrote: »
    Explains some of it, but its also often a bizarre homosocial bonding ritual (hence the way it crops up around sports teams, the military, gangs, and similarly isolated and structured social groups so often). One could go on, but its kind of depressing.

    I'm honestly curious about the bonding aspect, versus does it tend to happen with those groups solely because those groups are already together so it's just more likely.

    I mean, I've been a part of many structured male social groups growing up, and never once did we even contemplate gang rape as an activity.

    Evander on
  • PonyPony regular Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    Explains some of it, but its also often a bizarre homosocial bonding ritual (hence the way it crops up around sports teams, the military, gangs, and similarly isolated and structured social groups so often). One could go on, but its kind of depressing.

    I'm honestly curious about the bonding aspect, versus does it tend to happen with those groups solely because those groups are already together so it's just more likely.

    I mean, I've been a part of many structured male social groups growing up, and never once did we even contemplate gang rape as an activity.

    Welcome to South Africa, Evander!

    Pony on
  • The CatThe Cat regular Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    Explains some of it, but its also often a bizarre homosocial bonding ritual (hence the way it crops up around sports teams, the military, gangs, and similarly isolated and structured social groups so often). One could go on, but its kind of depressing.

    I'm honestly curious about the bonding aspect, versus does it tend to happen with those groups solely because those groups are already together so it's just more likely.

    I mean, I've been a part of many structured male social groups growing up, and never once did we even contemplate gang rape as an activity.

    Neither do a lot of people who wind up participating, and it can come as quite a shock to realise what they've done. As I recall, there's usually one or two ringleaders who are genuinely awful and also have high status within the group, plus a bunch of relatively normal people who get sucked into the groupthink. They're still responsible for what they do, but there's a weird process behind it. So its not inevitable unless the wrong people get into the wrong social position, and even then I'd guess it requires most of the participants to see women as objects for consumption first and people second on top of all the other shit. A prime example would be the Bilal Skaf rapes in Sydney a few years back, and its telling that those cases are known by the ringleaders' name.

    The Cat on
    tmsig.jpg
  • EvanderEvander regular Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Pony wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    Explains some of it, but its also often a bizarre homosocial bonding ritual (hence the way it crops up around sports teams, the military, gangs, and similarly isolated and structured social groups so often). One could go on, but its kind of depressing.

    I'm honestly curious about the bonding aspect, versus does it tend to happen with those groups solely because those groups are already together so it's just more likely.

    I mean, I've been a part of many structured male social groups growing up, and never once did we even contemplate gang rape as an activity.

    Welcome to South Africa, Evander!

    That I was aware of.

    I'm speaking about the US culture.

    I'm not arguing against the idea, I'm just curious.

    Evander on
  • <3Science<3Science Registered User
    edited October 2009
    Pony wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    Explains some of it, but its also often a bizarre homosocial bonding ritual (hence the way it crops up around sports teams, the military, gangs, and similarly isolated and structured social groups so often). One could go on, but its kind of depressing.

    I'm honestly curious about the bonding aspect, versus does it tend to happen with those groups solely because those groups are already together so it's just more likely.

    I mean, I've been a part of many structured male social groups growing up, and never once did we even contemplate gang rape as an activity.

    Welcome to South Africa, Evander!

    I wouldn't say a cultural mindset towards rape is the best example of structured male social groups.

    <3Science on
  • LeitnerLeitner regular Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Kagera wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    If you are leaving notes for the police, because you expect something to happen to you, you need to see a doctor. It's not your fault that you are that way, but you owe it to yourself to give yourself a happier, less fearful life.

    Because women aren't more likely to be the target of a violent crime or anything, right?

    They're not? Men are significantly more likely to get assaulted?

    Leitner on
  • SageinaRageSageinaRage regular Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Wow, 34 pages in a night, holy crap guys.

    So yeah, rape is bad, sexualization of minors is bad, watching while other people commit crimes is bad.

    Buying girls dinner is not compensation for sex, they don't owe you anything, etc. etc.

    The whole note argument is kind of weird though. Telling or leaving a note for your friends to let them know where you are is common and normal. Telling the police where you are because you anticipate a crime is kind of neurotic on a 'needs therapy' level.

    SageinaRage on
  • TubeTube admin Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited October 2009
    After reading any part of this thread I find myself wanting to have everyone in it lined up and punched in the face and that's normally a good sign that the populace has shown itself insufficiently mature to discuss a difficult topic like adults.

    Tube on
    Hobnail wrote: »
    This forum has taken everything from me
    This hurts but I deserve it

This discussion has been closed.