besides, 'rights' to me mean things like 'the right to electricity' the 'right' to have clean water the 'right' to have access to medical treatments
all of those things are NOT provided by the government
I think they should be
We have the right to bear arms, per the 2nd Amendment. Should the government hand out free firearms?
Freedom of the press is a right. Should the government pay for the cost of running newspapers and other media?
What you are proposing is that if something is a right, the government is obligated to pay for it. Or are you just suggesting that government needs to pay for certain rights that you like?
well to me, there is a difference between "rights" to bear arms and "rights" to water/food/electricity/etc
without one of those rights, you will wither and die
the other is more of a freedom
i think the two are often conflated, when I don't feel they mean the same thing
the "right" to bear arms is really the government saying that they wont STOP you from getting guns
I guess they aren't STOPPING us from getting food and water
also- isn't a laywer provided for you if you can't afford one? Isn't HAVING a laywer a 'right'?
It's almost as if somebody recognized that having the right to a lawyer absent the means to actually hire one was pretty meaningless, and destroyed one's realistic probability of a fair trial.
I almost feel like an analogy between this and healthcare could be drawn.
The reason you have the right to taxpayer funded counsel is because your need for that counsel is arising from the fact that government is charging you with a crime. Various courts have found that if government wants to limit your Constitutional rights (by putting you in prison), they need to provide you with the ability to defend yourself. AFAIK, the government isn't seeking to prevent anyone from obtaining medical treatment, so the two situations aren't analagous.
Government services are the exact opposite of how the private sector works, in that the people who pay the least tend to get the most out of government.
See, and most of us here simply won't agree, primarily because you seem to take "getting the most out of government" only in the most direct and literal sense.
For instance, the CEO of Halliburton has probably never drawn a welfare check.
Government contractors are a special case- they love government and expenditures of tax dollars. But, the CEO of Halliburton isn't rich because his tax dollars are somehow giving him a high return. He's rich because his company is able to tap into the spigot of tax money that government doles out to people for various reasons.
Modern Man on
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
...want a fucking tax cut, which is a goddamned handout.
That's a massively false statement, unless you believe the government has a presumed ownership of all private wealth and property.
The government is providing economic benefit to someone who doesn't have to do any work to earn it. That sounds like welfare and tax cuts to me. How do you "earn" a tax cut?
rich people pay taxes for the privilege of being rich and having their riches protected from something like a populist revolution against their excesses.
And this is akin to extortion. You're equating taxes to "protection money". EVERYONE benefits from a society of laws where wealth and property are protected.
Except that the wealthy benefit more because they have the most to lose. Yes, it is protection money, because France, Russia, Cuba, etc have shown that you can't crush the poor under your boot for too long before they cut off your foot. It's funny that rich people and their apologists never seem to remember that.
assholes like Rush Limbaugh who make millions, and then donate $100,000 a year to charity and pretend they've done more than their share and shouldn't pay high taxes, can eat a dick.
Limbaugh is a private citizen, so nobody can be sure exactly what he gives, but here's a wikipedia listing on one of his charities:
Leukemia and lymphoma telethon
Limbaugh holds an annual fundraising telethon called the "EIB Cure-a-Thon"[81] for the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society.[82] In 2006 the EIB Cure-a-Thon conducted its 16th annual telethon, raising $1.7 million;[83] totaling over $15 million since the first cure-a-thon.[84] According to Leukemia and Lymphoma Society annual reports, Limbaugh personally contributed between $100,000 and $499,999 from 2000–2005 and 2007,[85] and Limbaugh claims to have contributed around $250,000 in 2003, 2004 and 2005.[86] NewsMax reported Limbaugh donated $250,000 in 2006,[87] and the Society's 2006 annual report placed him in the $500,000 to $999,999 category.[85] Limbaugh donated $320,000 during the 2007 Cure-a-Thon[88] which the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society reported had raised $3.1 million.[89] On his radio program April 18, 2008, Limbaugh claimed to pledge $400,000 to the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society after being challenged by two listeners to increase his initial pledge of $300,000.[90]
I feel like you missed the part where I said some good can come of even arrogant rich bastards.
I have to disagree with the bolded. Wealthy and poor people get the same basic services from government in terms of law enforcement, roads, a court system and the like. However, per capita, poor people tend to consume more in the way of public services such as welfare, publicly-funded medical service and other welfare and social services programs.
The argument that rich people somehow get more out of government than poor people doesn't hold water, unless you subscribe to the view that financial success or failure is due to the actions of government.
I disagree with the super red. As an attorney, don't you benefit significantly more from the court system than a poor person. Hell, your entire trade is based on its existence.
Everyone's livelihood is based, to one extent or another, on the existence of courts of law. The existence of enforceable contracts is a crucial requirement for any type of economy beyond the barter system. Now, granted, litigators (which I'm not) make a direct living off of the existence of a court system, but we'd all be pretty screwed without its existence.
Similarly, a poor person gets an education for themselves from our school system. A wealthy person potentially gets a labor pool.
The wealthy person gets an education from our schools system, same as the poor person. Wealthy people aren't hatched fully-grown.
Modern Man on
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
The government is providing economic benefit to someone who doesn't have to do any work to earn it. That sounds like welfare and tax cuts to me. How do you "earn" a tax cut?
They did the work initially to earn it, the government is just taking less from them in the first place. That's not a handout.
Except that the wealthy benefit more because they have the most to lose. Yes, it is protection money, because France, Russia, Cuba, etc have shown that you can't crush the poor under your boot for too long before they cut off your foot. It's funny that rich people and their apologists never seem to remember that.
It's a lopsided way of seeing it. It presumes a state of anarchy and disarray and uses that threat as justification of high taxation and expansive government. That argument can easily be extended to justify any number of horrible things.
So they do the work so they deserve to pay less taxes on it?
I'm not arguing here against a progressive tax system on the whole, but to equate a tax cut to a handout presupposes government ownership of private capital.
The government is providing economic benefit to someone who doesn't have to do any work to earn it. That sounds like welfare and tax cuts to me. How do you "earn" a tax cut?
They did the work initially to earn it, the government is just taking less from them in the first place. That's not a handout.
Through no work of their own, the government is relieving the recipient of a tax cut of some of their legally required tax burden. That's a handout.
Except that the wealthy benefit more because they have the most to lose. Yes, it is protection money, because France, Russia, Cuba, etc have shown that you can't crush the poor under your boot for too long before they cut off your foot. It's funny that rich people and their apologists never seem to remember that.
It's a lopsided way of seeing it. It presumes a state of anarchy and disarray and uses that threat as justification of high taxation and expansive government. That argument can easily be extended to justify any number of horrible things.
It's the reality of the world. History shows that what I'm saying is right, and we were damn close to a similar situation at least once in our history (hey there Great Depression). Anyone who doesn't think that using tax revenue for social safety net programs is a means to avoid that sort of social conflict is fooling themselves.
So they do the work so they deserve to pay less taxes on it?
I'm not arguing here against a progressive tax system on the whole, but to equate a tax cut to a handout presupposes government ownership of private capital.
And your way of saying it sounds like the old "all taxes are theft" supposition.
Anyone who promotes class warfare scares me. How about instead of spending your time dividing people against people you improve yourself. Because by pulling yourself up you help to pull others up with you. Jealousy....greed...I have no time to look at my neighbors possessions to be jealous of them. I am happy with what I have, as you should be too, happy but not necessarily content.
Anyone who promotes class warfare scares me. How about instead of spending your time dividing people against people you improve yourself. Because by pulling yourself up you help to pull others up with you. Jealousy....greed...I have no time to look at my neighbors possessions to be jealous of them. I am happy with what I have, as you should be too, happy but not necessarily content.
goes both ways man
giving massive tax cuts to the rich promotes class warfare as much as asking for more welfare for the poor.
So they do the work so they deserve to pay less taxes on it?
I'm not arguing here against a progressive tax system on the whole, but to equate a tax cut to a handout presupposes government ownership of private capital.
And your way of saying it sounds like the old "all taxes are theft" supposition.
That interpretation says more about your position than mine.
Anyone who promotes class warfare scares me. How about instead of spending your time dividing people against people you improve yourself. Because by pulling yourself up you help to pull others up with you. Jealousy....greed...I have no time to look at my neighbors possessions to be jealous of them. I am happy with what I have, as you should be too, happy but not necessarily content.
goes both ways man
giving massive tax cuts to the rich promotes class warfare as much as asking for more welfare for the poor.
Anyone who promotes class warfare scares me. How about instead of spending your time dividing people against people you improve yourself. Because by pulling yourself up you help to pull others up with you. Jealousy....greed...I have no time to look at my neighbors possessions to be jealous of them. I am happy with what I have, as you should be too, happy but not necessarily content.
Anyone who promotes class warfare scares me. How about instead of spending your time dividing people against people you improve yourself. Because by pulling yourself up you help to pull others up with you. Jealousy....greed...I have no time to look at my neighbors possessions to be jealous of them. I am happy with what I have, as you should be too, happy but not necessarily content.
Anyone who promotes class warfare scares me. How about instead of spending your time dividing people against people you improve yourself. Because by pulling yourself up you help to pull others up with you. Jealousy....greed...I have no time to look at my neighbors possessions to be jealous of them. I am happy with what I have, as you should be too, happy but not necessarily content.
goes both ways man
giving massive tax cuts to the rich promotes class warfare as much as asking for more welfare for the poor.
Ok then have a flat tax
which would either tax the poor into literal starvation or force taxes so low the government would fall apart
So they do the work so they deserve to pay less taxes on it?
I'm not arguing here against a progressive tax system on the whole, but to equate a tax cut to a handout presupposes government ownership of private capital.
And your way of saying it sounds like the old "all taxes are theft" supposition.
That interpretation says more about your position than mine.
So they do the work so they deserve to pay less taxes on it?
I'm not arguing here against a progressive tax system on the whole, but to equate a tax cut to a handout presupposes government ownership of private capital.
And your way of saying it sounds like the old "all taxes are theft" supposition.
That interpretation says more about your position than mine.
Financial success or failure is not directly due to the actions of the government.
The ability to capitalize on that success or failure can be due to the protections the government provides.
What's the entrepreneur class in Somalia or Afghanistan look like? Last I checked, Bill Gates doesn't have to bankroll his own private army to defend his wealth.
Other than a handful of radical libertarians and/or anarchists, nobody is calling for the abolition of government. There are basic governmental functions, such as roads and other infrastructure, law enforcement, courts and the military that almost no one objects to.
The area of contention, it seems, involve social services and welfare and the use of tax dollars for the benefit of the politically connected (by way of such things as farm subsidies and the like).
The classical conservative view is that government exists to protect the rights of the citizenry. Anything beyond that is not a proper role of government and should not be paid for with tax dollars.
but the counter argument is comparing the relative levels of tax dollars going into each program (e.g. infrastructure vs. medicaid. or military vs. welfare)
We actually spend more on medicare/medicaide than we do on military defense.
Knuckle Dragger on
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
Anyone who promotes class warfare scares me. How about instead of spending your time dividing people against people you improve yourself. Because by pulling yourself up you help to pull others up with you. Jealousy....greed...I have no time to look at my neighbors possessions to be jealous of them. I am happy with what I have, as you should be too, happy but not necessarily content.
So they do the work so they deserve to pay less taxes on it?
I'm not arguing here against a progressive tax system on the whole, but to equate a tax cut to a handout presupposes government ownership of private capital.
And your way of saying it sounds like the old "all taxes are theft" supposition.
That interpretation says more about your position than mine.
Tax cuts are not handouts, that's all I'm saying.
The problem is that you're wrong.
how is a tax cut a hand out, if you steal $20 from me, and give me back 10 you think I should be grateful like you just did sumthing for me...?
So they do the work so they deserve to pay less taxes on it?
I'm not arguing here against a progressive tax system on the whole, but to equate a tax cut to a handout presupposes government ownership of private capital.
And your way of saying it sounds like the old "all taxes are theft" supposition.
That interpretation says more about your position than mine.
Tax cuts are not handouts, that's all I'm saying.
The problem is that you're wrong.
how is a tax cut a hand out, if you steal $20 from me, and give me back 10 you think I should be grateful like you just did sumthing for me...?
If I'm your landlord who keeps your office standing for the cost of 10 dollars a month yes you fucking damn well should be grateful.
Your average food stamp reciepent gets a little over 100 dollars a month
whats the bonuses for your average CEO of a TARP bailout bank?
Don't look at me. I'm as opposed to bailing out failing businesses as I am to most other types of welfare programs.
then stop pretending people in the bottom tax brackets are the only ones who "get anything out of" welfare.
who else does, just curious, because if people not in lower income brackets are making out from wellfare that pisses me off, because it means people who really do not need it are stealing tax dollars.
So they do the work so they deserve to pay less taxes on it?
I'm not arguing here against a progressive tax system on the whole, but to equate a tax cut to a handout presupposes government ownership of private capital.
And your way of saying it sounds like the old "all taxes are theft" supposition.
That interpretation says more about your position than mine.
Tax cuts are not handouts, that's all I'm saying.
The problem is that you're wrong.
how is a tax cut a hand out, if you steal $20 from me, and give me back 10 you think I should be grateful like you just did sumthing for me...?
If I'm your landlord who keeps your office standing for the cost of 10 dollars a month yes you fucking damn well should be grateful.
that is scary thinking, I should remind you we live in a democracy where the government is SUPPOSED to be the servant of the people not the master. So I think your metaphor would be better if we lived in a totalitarian state or a monarchy.
So they do the work so they deserve to pay less taxes on it?
I'm not arguing here against a progressive tax system on the whole, but to equate a tax cut to a handout presupposes government ownership of private capital.
And your way of saying it sounds like the old "all taxes are theft" supposition.
That interpretation says more about your position than mine.
So they do the work so they deserve to pay less taxes on it?
I'm not arguing here against a progressive tax system on the whole, but to equate a tax cut to a handout presupposes government ownership of private capital.
And your way of saying it sounds like the old "all taxes are theft" supposition.
That interpretation says more about your position than mine.
Tax cuts are not handouts, that's all I'm saying.
The problem is that you're wrong.
how is a tax cut a hand out, if you steal $20 from me, and give me back 10 you think I should be grateful like you just did sumthing for me...?
Taxes aren't theft, unless you think rent is also theft.
that is scary thinking, I should remind you we live in a democracy where the government is SUPPOSED to be the servant of the people not the master. So I think your metaphor would be better if we lived in a totalitarian state or a monarchy.
If you truly feel you receive inadequate service here, perhaps you should take your patronage elsewhere rather than try to divide this country against itself.
So they do the work so they deserve to pay less taxes on it?
I'm not arguing here against a progressive tax system on the whole, but to equate a tax cut to a handout presupposes government ownership of private capital.
And your way of saying it sounds like the old "all taxes are theft" supposition.
That interpretation says more about your position than mine.
Tax cuts are not handouts, that's all I'm saying.
The problem is that you're wrong.
No, you're wrong.
Ok, that gets us nowhere.
No, seriously, you're objectively incorrect.
This is going to go nowhere, because I think you're way off base and have done diddly-shit to prove otherwise.
Your average food stamp reciepent gets a little over 100 dollars a month
whats the bonuses for your average CEO of a TARP bailout bank?
Don't look at me. I'm as opposed to bailing out failing businesses as I am to most other types of welfare programs.
then stop pretending people in the bottom tax brackets are the only ones who "get anything out of" welfare.
who else does, just curious, because if people not in lower income brackets are making out from wellfare that pisses me off, because it means people who really do not need it are stealing tax dollars.
I fail to see how a fiscally unnecessary irresponsible tax break is functionally any different than giving money away for free.
You can't lose what you don't have. The Federal Government's support for our economic and banking infrastructure is great for everyone. I'd sure be unhappy if the American economy completely collapsed tomorrow and money had absolutely no meaning. I'd lose thousands of dollars.
A billionaire would lose billions of dollars.
Not hard to see who is losing more. Not that we wouldn't both be fucked, but one of us would have much farther to fall.
Government is the perpetuation of current society. The more you have in a current society, the more value you have in the perpetuation of that society.
So they do the work so they deserve to pay less taxes on it?
I'm not arguing here against a progressive tax system on the whole, but to equate a tax cut to a handout presupposes government ownership of private capital.
And your way of saying it sounds like the old "all taxes are theft" supposition.
That interpretation says more about your position than mine.
Tax cuts are not handouts, that's all I'm saying.
The problem is that you're wrong.
how is a tax cut a hand out, if you steal $20 from me, and give me back 10 you think I should be grateful like you just did sumthing for me...?
If I'm your landlord who keeps your office standing for the cost of 10 dollars a month yes you fucking damn well should be grateful.
that is scary thinking, I should remind you we live in a democracy where the government is SUPPOSED to be the servant of the people not the master. So I think your metaphor would be better if we lived in a totalitarian state or a monarchy.
I'm struggling to take you seriously at this point because you're displaying almost a parody of naive libertarian ideology. Oh, and you also don't seem to grasp taxation.
mrdobalina: I've done more to prove my point than you have. A tax break is a gift from the government. A gift is a handout, ergo a tax break is a handout.
So they do the work so they deserve to pay less taxes on it?
I'm not arguing here against a progressive tax system on the whole, but to equate a tax cut to a handout presupposes government ownership of private capital.
And your way of saying it sounds like the old "all taxes are theft" supposition.
That interpretation says more about your position than mine.
Tax cuts are not handouts, that's all I'm saying.
The problem is that you're wrong.
how is a tax cut a hand out, if you steal $20 from me, and give me back 10 you think I should be grateful like you just did sumthing for me...?
If I'm your landlord who keeps your office standing for the cost of 10 dollars a month yes you fucking damn well should be grateful.
that is scary thinking, I should remind you we live in a democracy where the government is SUPPOSED to be the servant of the people not the master. So I think your metaphor would be better if we lived in a totalitarian state or a monarchy.
A democracy, just like any other form of government, needs money to function. Taxes are not a characteristic of unjust systems of government, they are a characteristic of systems of government.
Edit: I usually tend to disagree with you Mrdobalina, but I'm glad nobody has managed to run you away from this forum. It feels a lot like an echo chamber at times.
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MrMisterJesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered Userregular
edited October 2009
This discussion should really be about underlying theories of justice, because different notions there are what drives this particular disagreement about particular tax brackets.
This discussion should really be about underlying theories of justice, because different notions there are what drives this particular disagreement about particular tax brackets.
Progressive taxation is a combination of economic logic, risk aversion, tax value and economic justice. I don't think you can boil the idea of progressive taxation into "well, this is solely about X" when the concept is based on a mishmash of all sorts of ideologies and economic concepts.
Underlying theories of justice is certainly part of it, just not the only part.
Posts
Government contractors are a special case- they love government and expenditures of tax dollars. But, the CEO of Halliburton isn't rich because his tax dollars are somehow giving him a high return. He's rich because his company is able to tap into the spigot of tax money that government doles out to people for various reasons.
Rigorous Scholarship
The government is providing economic benefit to someone who doesn't have to do any work to earn it. That sounds like welfare and tax cuts to me. How do you "earn" a tax cut?
Except that the wealthy benefit more because they have the most to lose. Yes, it is protection money, because France, Russia, Cuba, etc have shown that you can't crush the poor under your boot for too long before they cut off your foot. It's funny that rich people and their apologists never seem to remember that.
The wealthy person gets an education from our schools system, same as the poor person. Wealthy people aren't hatched fully-grown.
Rigorous Scholarship
They did the work initially to earn it, the government is just taking less from them in the first place. That's not a handout.
It's a lopsided way of seeing it. It presumes a state of anarchy and disarray and uses that threat as justification of high taxation and expansive government. That argument can easily be extended to justify any number of horrible things.
I wasn't directing that to you.
I'm not arguing here against a progressive tax system on the whole, but to equate a tax cut to a handout presupposes government ownership of private capital.
whats the bonuses for your average CEO of a TARP bailout bank?
Through no work of their own, the government is relieving the recipient of a tax cut of some of their legally required tax burden. That's a handout.
It's the reality of the world. History shows that what I'm saying is right, and we were damn close to a similar situation at least once in our history (hey there Great Depression). Anyone who doesn't think that using tax revenue for social safety net programs is a means to avoid that sort of social conflict is fooling themselves.
I know, but I felt like it needed to be reiterated.
And your way of saying it sounds like the old "all taxes are theft" supposition.
goes both ways man
giving massive tax cuts to the rich promotes class warfare as much as asking for more welfare for the poor.
That interpretation says more about your position than mine.
Tax cuts are not handouts, that's all I'm saying.
Anyone who doesn't care about social justice scares me.
Or something.
Ok then have a flat tax
I assume this is directed at rich people.
it is directed at anyone who promotes class warfare. A country divided against itself will fall apart.
which would either tax the poor into literal starvation or force taxes so low the government would fall apart
The problem is that you're wrong.
No, you're wrong.
We actually spend more on medicare/medicaide than we do on military defense.
- John Stuart Mill
Rigorous Scholarship
how is a tax cut a hand out, if you steal $20 from me, and give me back 10 you think I should be grateful like you just did sumthing for me...?
then stop pretending people in the bottom tax brackets are the only ones who "get anything out of" welfare.
If I'm your landlord who keeps your office standing for the cost of 10 dollars a month yes you fucking damn well should be grateful.
who else does, just curious, because if people not in lower income brackets are making out from wellfare that pisses me off, because it means people who really do not need it are stealing tax dollars.
that is scary thinking, I should remind you we live in a democracy where the government is SUPPOSED to be the servant of the people not the master. So I think your metaphor would be better if we lived in a totalitarian state or a monarchy.
No, seriously, you're objectively incorrect.
Stealing isn't exactly the right analogy.
Taxes aren't theft, unless you think rent is also theft.
This is going to go nowhere, because I think you're way off base and have done diddly-shit to prove otherwise.
I fail to see how a fiscally unnecessary irresponsible tax break is functionally any different than giving money away for free.
A billionaire would lose billions of dollars.
Not hard to see who is losing more. Not that we wouldn't both be fucked, but one of us would have much farther to fall.
Government is the perpetuation of current society. The more you have in a current society, the more value you have in the perpetuation of that society.
I'm struggling to take you seriously at this point because you're displaying almost a parody of naive libertarian ideology. Oh, and you also don't seem to grasp taxation.
mrdobalina: I've done more to prove my point than you have. A tax break is a gift from the government. A gift is a handout, ergo a tax break is a handout.
A democracy, just like any other form of government, needs money to function. Taxes are not a characteristic of unjust systems of government, they are a characteristic of systems of government.
Edit: I usually tend to disagree with you Mrdobalina, but I'm glad nobody has managed to run you away from this forum. It feels a lot like an echo chamber at times.
Origin Handle - OminousBulge
XBox Live GT - TheOminousBulge
I think that there's more of a Utilitarian argument that we would have less people living in poverty if the top 1% of wealth were to be redistributed.
And I, frankly, don't care if they "worked for it", the unemployed construction worker works just as hard.
Progressive taxation is a combination of economic logic, risk aversion, tax value and economic justice. I don't think you can boil the idea of progressive taxation into "well, this is solely about X" when the concept is based on a mishmash of all sorts of ideologies and economic concepts.
Underlying theories of justice is certainly part of it, just not the only part.