Bama, I'd sincerely like to see your response to what I said last page. I generally find that we're pretty polar in viewpoints, and expecting that you'll disagree with me would sincerely and respectfully like to read it. Sorry to interrupt the current back and forth.
Actually, my concern is more with the objection to transgendered status rather than the disclosure of it. I agree that if you pick a person in the US at random they are very likely their biological gender and sex and that a person is not unreasonable to expect that to be the case.
Now, interestingly, it is also likely that a random US citizen is not a follower of a religion that forbids or discourages sex with transgendered people, so a transgendered person would be right to assume that the person they were talking to would not have any religious objection to having sex with him. Now, I don't know what the likelyhood would be of that person having another objection to having sex with a transgendered person, and I'd be interested to see data on that.
Christian, and I'm assuming the rest of the people of the Book, authorities absolutely view a MtF transgendered person as forbidden under the general rules for a guy to sleep with.
Cite? I'm not trying to be a dick, but I've spent most of my life around Christians and have never heard anything about transsexuals being mentioned in the bible. I'm also a little hesitant to plumb Google for info about this while at work.
Deuteronomy 22:5 is where they will extract a ban on transgendered people from:
"The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God."
While I'll agree that she's a good example, I don't think her photo is especially good for your cause. I'm about as sympathetic to your viewpoint as I think it's possible for me to be but I think she looks like a dude outside of her chest. I mean, I've seen women who are born biologically female who are more mannish than she is, but she's got man-hands and a very mannish sort of face.
Wow, it really is exactly as I thought it was. Everyone (with exceptions) views this whole topic as "but I don't wanna be forced to have sex with a transsexual!"
Like, that is the entire reasoning right there. Like, guys, guess what - it'll never happen if you never happen to start dating one and get to that point. Or you know, apply what you keep preaching and are upfront to every women you meet that you would not be cool with it if she were a transsexual. I'm sure the transsexuals would be most accomodating in reciprocating that.
EDIT: Also pretty much everything else is cover for unresolved issues of homophobia. I mean, why are people freaked - because really, it would mean you had sex with a guy. OH MY GOD! YOU WILL HAVE CAUGHT THE GHEY!
That's a pretty awesome mischaracterization. It's not that I think having sex with an MTF would make me gay, it's that I'm not gay and thus don't want to. I view the MTF body as still male, whether I can tell or not, so I don't want to have sex with an MTF. Because I'm not gay.
It's like you're saying that any guy who doesn't want to have sex with another guy is a homophobe. No, we're just not gay.
Catching up. I'm not intentionally picking on you, Nostregar, but I feel I need to point this specific statement out:
I view the MTF body as still male, whether I can tell or not, so I don't want to have sex with an MTF. Because I'm not gay.
So, take a dysphoric male. Administer the proper hormones at the proper time. Perform surgical operations. You're left with a human that looks like a woman, thinks like a woman, and has the proper equipment to shag like a woman. If you hit that... it's gay?
Are you REALLY going to tell me that this is a "man"? Are you really going to tell me that if you slept with her, and she told you her past, you'd suddenly believe you just committed a homosexual act?
If you look back a page, you'll see where I defined why I think that the altered male body is still male. Because of that, I would tend to think of that model as physically male, yes.
I'm not saying they are a man. I'm saying they are physically male. Very different.
Would I consider sex with that model to be "gay"? Like I said a little bit back, hard to say. In theory I want to say yes, but until I actually was in the situation it's hard to tell you how I'd feel about it.
But that's just the thing. A human body is a human body. When you're done with this process, it's far, far closer to the traditional binary for "woman" than for "man". So, you're not sleeping with a man. You can say, "but she used to have a male body," but I can then say "and you used to have a female body." We're just drawing arbitrary lines at this point.
The hair example is perfect. If someone is born bald, and can't grow hair on their head, but through SCIENCE! we transplant natural-looking hair, is that person still bald? Maybe they have to stay on some medication to keep it healthy and growing. Are they just a bald person pretending to have hair? Or do they really have hair?
Where would you like to arbitrarily draw the line? Where will society eventually agree to draw it?
Bama, I'd sincerely like to see your response to what I said last page. I generally find that we're pretty polar in viewpoints, and expecting that you'll disagree with me would sincerely and respectfully like to read it. Sorry to interrupt the current back and forth.
Actually, my concern is more with the objection to transgendered status rather than the disclosure of it. I agree that if you pick a person in the US at random they are very likely their biological gender and sex and that a person is not unreasonable to expect that to be the case.
Now, interestingly, it is also likely that a random US citizen is not a follower of a religion that forbids or discourages sex with transgendered people, so a transgendered person would be right to assume that the person they were talking to would not have any religious objection to having sex with him. Now, I don't know what the likelyhood would be of that person having another objection to having sex with a transgendered person, and I'd be interested to see data on that.
Christian, and I'm assuming the rest of the people of the Book, authorities absolutely view a MtF transgendered person as forbidden under the general rules for a guy to sleep with.
Cite? I'm not trying to be a dick, but I've spent most of my life around Christians and have never heard anything about transsexuals being mentioned in the bible. I'm also a little hesitant to plumb Google for info about this while at work.
Deuteronomy 22:5 is where they will extract a ban on transgendered people from:
"The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God."
Gonna have to put a current citation off till not on the work system as well. You know as well as I do that it doesn't have to be explicitly outlined in the bible for the system to be able to interpret meaning.
Well, an underlying issue here is how we are going to define "man" and "woman." I doubt the bible discussed things on a genetic level, and there are some transsexuals out there who The Lord Our God would swear were truly their target gender. :P
In any case, that is an objection to cross-dressing. Halloween is coming up, what if a Christian met an attractive mtf dressed like a man. If he disgusted by the cross-dressing, but later finds out that the person was really a "man" is he going to wish he'd hit that? Does his head explode?
Well, an underlying issue here is how we are going to define "man" and "woman." I doubt the bible discussed things on a genetic level, and there are some transsexuals out there who The Lord Our God would swear were truly their target gender. :P
In any case, that is an objection to cross-dressing. Halloween is coming up, what if a Christian met an attractive mtf dressed like a man. If he disgusted by the cross-dressing, but later finds out that the person was really a "man" is he going to wish he'd hit that? Does his head explode?
Well, an underlying issue here is how we are going to define "man" and "woman." I doubt the bible discussed things on a genetic level, and there are some transsexuals out there who The Lord Our God would swear were truly their target gender. :P
In any case, that is an objection to cross-dressing. Halloween is coming up, what if a Christian met an attractive mtf dressed like a man. If he disgusted by the cross-dressing, but later finds out that the person was really a "man" is he going to wish he'd hit that? Does his head explode?
Are you honestly going to say that you believe the Catholic Church finds that a man sleeping with a MtF transsexual is cool? This particular branch of the argument isn't whether you believe that the personal choices of people in the pursuit of their faiths is the correct thing, but rather focuses on the individual pursuit of beliefs without pushing them on others, and the acceptance of what is currently the norm or not the norm.
But as stated, an MTF's body is just a male body with alterations. Why isn't that a male body?
What part of it is male? Perhaps you could elaborate on what makes a body male or female outside of genitalia/reproductive organs and secondary sex characteristics and we could go from there.
I don't think there's any specific part that makes you male - though I mean, I could say "chromosomes!" and that would suffice here, I think - but I don't see how you can take a body which is undeniably male, cut a few parts off and add a few things*, and say it's not male any more. It is an altered male body.
*Super simplified, I know there's hormone injections and a bunch of other stuff
Okay, so it's a nebulous concept, this undeniably male body (seriously, correct me if I'm wrong, but aside from "chromosomes!" we can agree there's nothing specific that makes a body male or female... now how it can be undeniably male given that caveat, I don't know, but....).
Is an XXY person male or female? Female because of the XX, or male because of the penis? Female, if the person developed breasts at puberty, or male because of the Y?
I'm genuinely curious, I'd love to narrow this down.
An XXY person is intersex. They are neither male nor female. Quite simply what we have is a situation where we don't have enough gender words. I personally would date someone who was female, or was intersex and presented as 100% female, which some do from birth, some are even fertile and only find out they are intersex when the have a whole body scan and it reveals they have extra organs.
I would not date someone who was male, ftm trans, intersex presenting male, true hermaphroditic, or mtf trans. Its as simple as that. If you believe your gender is hidden, then it is your responsibility to reveal it at an appropriate time.
Would it be appropriate for a woman to dress up as a man and go to a gay bar and attempt to seduce gay guys? Would it be appropriate for a gay guy to dress up as a woman and go to a bar and attempt to seduce straight guys? Would either be justified in being upset, if, after getting them back to her place their potential partner was horrified at their gender? Of course not, since the assumption that you are your presented gender is a basic fact.
Well, an underlying issue here is how we are going to define "man" and "woman." I doubt the bible discussed things on a genetic level, and there are some transsexuals out there who The Lord Our God would swear were truly their target gender. :P
In any case, that is an objection to cross-dressing. Halloween is coming up, what if a Christian met an attractive mtf dressed like a man. If he disgusted by the cross-dressing, but later finds out that the person was really a "man" is he going to wish he'd hit that? Does his head explode?
Are you honestly going to say that you believe the Catholic Church finds that a man sleeping with a MtF transsexual is cool?
I am honestly going to say that I believe they have as much to say about it as they do about air travel.
But as stated, an MTF's body is just a male body with alterations. Why isn't that a male body?
What part of it is male? Perhaps you could elaborate on what makes a body male or female outside of genitalia/reproductive organs and secondary sex characteristics and we could go from there.
I don't think there's any specific part that makes you male - though I mean, I could say "chromosomes!" and that would suffice here, I think - but I don't see how you can take a body which is undeniably male, cut a few parts off and add a few things*, and say it's not male any more. It is an altered male body.
*Super simplified, I know there's hormone injections and a bunch of other stuff
Okay, so it's a nebulous concept, this undeniably male body (seriously, correct me if I'm wrong, but aside from "chromosomes!" we can agree there's nothing specific that makes a body male or female... now how it can be undeniably male given that caveat, I don't know, but....).
Is an XXY person male or female? Female because of the XX, or male because of the penis? Female, if the person developed breasts at puberty, or male because of the Y?
I'm genuinely curious, I'd love to narrow this down.
An XXY person is intersex. They are neither male nor female. Quite simply what we have is a situation where we don't have enough gender words. I personally would date someone who was female, or was intersex and presented as 100% female, which some do from birth, some are even fertile and only find out they are intersex when the have a whole body scan and it reveals they have extra organs.
I would not date someone who was male, ftm trans, intersex presenting male, true hermaphroditic, or mtf trans. Its as simple as that. If you believe your gender is hidden, then it is your responsibility to reveal it at an appropriate time.
Would it be appropriate for a woman to dress up as a man and go to a gay bar and attempt to seduce gay guys? Would it be appropriate for a gay guy to dress up as a woman and go to a bar and attempt to seduce straight guys? Would either be justified in being upset, if, after getting them back to her place their potential partner was horrified at their gender? Of course not, since the assumption that you are your presented gender is a basic fact.
Again, what is the basis for where people draw their line? It seems completely arbitrary. If a person's body is distinctly more female than male, why is their "gender" male?
(Wrong term, btw; gender is a societal construct, not biological. I believe you meant "sex". It may not seem important, but pages of this thread were dedicated to that difference earlier.)
Also, getting gender reassingment surgery is probably violating the 'your body is a temple' rule.
Everytime I get that shit when talking about getting another tattoo I tell them that eating fried food and McDonald does more harm to the temple than a little ink.
Wow, it really is exactly as I thought it was. Everyone (with exceptions) views this whole topic as "but I don't wanna be forced to have sex with a transsexual!"
Like, that is the entire reasoning right there. Like, guys, guess what - it'll never happen if you never happen to start dating one and get to that point. Or you know, apply what you keep preaching and are upfront to every women you meet that you would not be cool with it if she were a transsexual. I'm sure the transsexuals would be most accomodating in reciprocating that.
EDIT: Also pretty much everything else is cover for unresolved issues of homophobia. I mean, why are people freaked - because really, it would mean you had sex with a guy. OH MY GOD! YOU WILL HAVE CAUGHT THE GHEY!
That's a pretty awesome mischaracterization. It's not that I think having sex with an MTF would make me gay, it's that I'm not gay and thus don't want to. I view the MTF body as still male, whether I can tell or not, so I don't want to have sex with an MTF. Because I'm not gay.
It's like you're saying that any guy who doesn't want to have sex with another guy is a homophobe. No, we're just not gay.
Catching up. I'm not intentionally picking on you, Nostregar, but I feel I need to point this specific statement out:
I view the MTF body as still male, whether I can tell or not, so I don't want to have sex with an MTF. Because I'm not gay.
So, take a dysphoric male. Administer the proper hormones at the proper time. Perform surgical operations. You're left with a human that looks like a woman, thinks like a woman, and has the proper equipment to shag like a woman. If you hit that... it's gay?
Are you REALLY going to tell me that this is a "man"? Are you really going to tell me that if you slept with her, and she told you her past, you'd suddenly believe you just committed a homosexual act?
If you look back a page, you'll see where I defined why I think that the altered male body is still male. Because of that, I would tend to think of that model as physically male, yes.
I'm not saying they are a man. I'm saying they are physically male. Very different.
Would I consider sex with that model to be "gay"? Like I said a little bit back, hard to say. In theory I want to say yes, but until I actually was in the situation it's hard to tell you how I'd feel about it.
But that's just the thing. A human body is a human body. When you're done with this process, it's far, far closer to the traditional binary for "woman" than for "man". So, you're not sleeping with a man. You can say, "but she used to have a male body," but I can then say "and you used to have a female body." We're just drawing arbitrary lines at this point.
The hair example is perfect. If someone is born bald, and can't grow hair on their head, but through SCIENCE! we transplant natural-looking hair, is that person still bald? Maybe they have to stay on some medication to keep it healthy and growing. Are they just a bald person pretending to have hair? Or do they really have hair?
Where would you like to arbitrarily draw the line? Where will society eventually agree to draw it?
My wife telling me "I used to be bald" wouldn't be a dealbreaker so much as "I used to be a dude".
I am pretty comfortable saying virtually nothing about sexuality is rational.
That's why I like the food analogies. People can have preferences based on their own gut reactions and nobody generally takes any offense. I think putting brown gravy on baked macaroni and cheese sounds pretty gross, but I know some people who think it's totally boss. I'm glad they enjoy it, I just don't want any because it isn't appetizing to me.
But as stated, an MTF's body is just a male body with alterations. Why isn't that a male body?
What part of it is male? Perhaps you could elaborate on what makes a body male or female outside of genitalia/reproductive organs and secondary sex characteristics and we could go from there.
I don't think there's any specific part that makes you male - though I mean, I could say "chromosomes!" and that would suffice here, I think - but I don't see how you can take a body which is undeniably male, cut a few parts off and add a few things*, and say it's not male any more. It is an altered male body.
*Super simplified, I know there's hormone injections and a bunch of other stuff
Okay, so it's a nebulous concept, this undeniably male body (seriously, correct me if I'm wrong, but aside from "chromosomes!" we can agree there's nothing specific that makes a body male or female... now how it can be undeniably male given that caveat, I don't know, but....).
Is an XXY person male or female? Female because of the XX, or male because of the penis? Female, if the person developed breasts at puberty, or male because of the Y?
I'm genuinely curious, I'd love to narrow this down.
By undeniably male I meant a body which everyone would accept as male - a typical male body. Penis, XY, the works. Then, we take it and modify it. Make it look like a female body. Why is that not considered a modified male body?
I tend to think of the body's "natural state" as what it would be without outside interference - in this case, surgery and hormone injections. If it would be a male body without that, it's male. Same goes for FTM - their body is still female.
XXY is tricky. Since their natural state is traits of both genders (right? I don't know a whole lot about it), I'd say they get to be either "both" or a third gender category. Like I said though, I don't know much about it so I don't want to make an absolute statement.
False, individuals with Kleinfelters are not intersex. They are male. Generally infertile and with a tendency to a certain "look" but 100% male.
And I just thought of a better version of the Muslim analogy. If a muslim doesn't like lamb that is fine but people are going to look at them weird if they start claiming that they can't eat lamb because it is pork and against their religion.
A transitioning/ed transgender person is not their original sex. I don't care if you consider them a "normal" example of their gender or not, they are no longer biologically their original sex. I can kinda see considering them a separate category.
A question for the people who think MTFs are still men: Do you feel the same way about people with AIS? (male internal plumbing, female external genitalia, that way from birth)
What if in the future transgender people could have the surgery before puberty and go through a normal female puberty?
EDIT for extra biology: The extra X chromosome in women and XXY men condenses into a Barr body and isn't used unless something isn't working on the primary X chromosome.
Kistra on
Animal Crossing: City Folk Lissa in Filmore 3179-9580-0076
An XXY person is intersex. They are neither male nor female. Quite simply what we have is a situation where we don't have enough gender words. I personally would date someone who was female, or was intersex and presented as 100% female, which some do from birth, some are even fertile and only find out they are intersex when the have a whole body scan and it reveals they have extra organs.
Uh..XXY is either male or Kleinfelter's (male but with genetic disease).
As in, they have male genitalia, and they will develop as physiological males.
Wow, it really is exactly as I thought it was. Everyone (with exceptions) views this whole topic as "but I don't wanna be forced to have sex with a transsexual!"
Like, that is the entire reasoning right there. Like, guys, guess what - it'll never happen if you never happen to start dating one and get to that point. Or you know, apply what you keep preaching and are upfront to every women you meet that you would not be cool with it if she were a transsexual. I'm sure the transsexuals would be most accomodating in reciprocating that.
EDIT: Also pretty much everything else is cover for unresolved issues of homophobia. I mean, why are people freaked - because really, it would mean you had sex with a guy. OH MY GOD! YOU WILL HAVE CAUGHT THE GHEY!
That's a pretty awesome mischaracterization. It's not that I think having sex with an MTF would make me gay, it's that I'm not gay and thus don't want to. I view the MTF body as still male, whether I can tell or not, so I don't want to have sex with an MTF. Because I'm not gay.
It's like you're saying that any guy who doesn't want to have sex with another guy is a homophobe. No, we're just not gay.
I don't want to pile on to you either (hurf durf) but I really do believe that homophobia fits here. If they were a man, but are now physically a man as far as you can tell without chromosome analysis, then sleeping with a MtF in this sense, as a male DOES NOT MAKE YOU GAY.
You know what makes you gay? THINKING AN ERECT PHALLUS IS ATTRACTIVE
Thinking something that looks like a vagina, feels like a vagina, and has some titties like the physical sex that generally has a vagina is attractive makes you a paragon of male virtue.
And if we take the evo psych argument, makes you a HUGE BIG MAN because you are all ABOUT banging something that MAY be female.
In case anyone's interested, I wanted to link to this page about facial feminization. It's very interesting. Hormones prior to puberty aside, it's one of the only ways for an MTF to really pass as female (for many people).
You know what makes you gay? THINKING AN ERECT PHALLUS IS ATTRACTIVE
Actually, even that could be argued. I think a safer statement is that if you are aroused by the thought of having sex with men and only men, you are gay. Some people like "dick girls" (it's an anime thing...look it up if you're in the mood) but don't actually identify as gay.
Anyway, to get away from the specifics of christian theology, I do think it's fair to say that "christians don't do transsexuals" is not anywhere close to being common knowledge on the "muslims don't eat pork" level. So that seems to put the burden of disclosure at an impasse unless there's data on the general acceptance of transsexuals that we can look at.
If I were the transgendered person in that situation, I would be up front about it. However, my idealism and the nature of our society are often at odds, and I can definitely see someone not wanting to be as forthcoming.
An XXY person is intersex. They are neither male nor female. Quite simply what we have is a situation where we don't have enough gender words. I personally would date someone who was female, or was intersex and presented as 100% female, which some do from birth, some are even fertile and only find out they are intersex when the have a whole body scan and it reveals they have extra organs.
Uh..XXY is either male or Kleinfelter's (male but with genetic disease).
As in, they have male genitalia, and they will develop as physiological males.
Hmm, isn't there a genetic combination like XXY which makes you female but with vestigial testes or something. I know there is XYY which causes enormous testosterone imbalances and also makes you sterile. I'm sure I recall reading about intersex people who presented as male or female, and just never found out until they had some condition (usually cancer of a sexual organ they didn't realise they had)
Anyway, to get away from the specifics of christian theology, I do think it's fair to say that "christians don't do transsexuals" is not anywhere close to being common knowledge on the "muslims don't eat pork" level. So that seems to put the burden of disclosure at an impasse unless there's data on the general acceptance of transsexuals that we can look at.
If I were the transgendered person in that situation, I would be up front about it. However, my idealism and the nature of our society are often at odds, and I can definitely see someone not wanting to be as forthcoming.
I would argue that it IS common knowledge. Christians don't do homosexual relationships of any kind and they frown upon transgendered people. The Southern Baptist Convention and the Catholic church have been rather outspoken about it.
Anyway, to get away from the specifics of christian theology, I do think it's fair to say that "christians don't do transsexuals" is not anywhere close to being common knowledge on the "muslims don't eat pork" level. So that seems to put the burden of disclosure at an impasse unless there's data on the general acceptance of transsexuals that we can look at.
If I were the transgendered person in that situation, I would be up front about it. However, my idealism and the nature of our society are often at odds, and I can definitely see someone not wanting to be as forthcoming.
I would argue that it IS common knowledge. Christians don't do homosexual relationships of any kind and they frown upon transgendered people. The Southern Baptist Convention and the Catholic church have been rather outspoken about it.
Anyway, to get away from the specifics of christian theology, I do think it's fair to say that "christians don't do transsexuals" is not anywhere close to being common knowledge on the "muslims don't eat pork" level. So that seems to put the burden of disclosure at an impasse unless there's data on the general acceptance of transsexuals that we can look at.
If I were the transgendered person in that situation, I would be up front about it. However, my idealism and the nature of our society are often at odds, and I can definitely see someone not wanting to be as forthcoming.
Come on. It's disingenuous to say, "Well, I don't have any numbers in front of me, so I couldn't possibly speculate as to how many people would be comfortable having sex with a TG."
If there are enough extremists out there to create an atmosphere in which people don't feel comfortable walking down the street openly TG, then any rock you throw is going to land on someone who at least isn't comfortable fucking one. I would think it's pretty reasonable to say that, outside of specific places, anybody you pick out of a crowd would not be cool with it.
Using the "dangerous environment" to cop out of being honest only to conclude that "well, they'd probably be cool with it anyway" is really pretty stupid in a way that doesn't have anything to do with sexuality.
Anyway, to get away from the specifics of christian theology, I do think it's fair to say that "christians don't do transsexuals" is not anywhere close to being common knowledge on the "muslims don't eat pork" level. So that seems to put the burden of disclosure at an impasse unless there's data on the general acceptance of transsexuals that we can look at.
If I were the transgendered person in that situation, I would be up front about it. However, my idealism and the nature of our society are often at odds, and I can definitely see someone not wanting to be as forthcoming.
I would argue that it IS common knowledge. Christians don't do homosexual relationships of any kind and they frown upon transgendered people. The Southern Baptist Convention and the Catholic church have been rather outspoken about it.
I disagree that it's a homosexual relationship.
THIS
THIS
bama make out with me (see this is a homosexual relationship.)
Yeah, none of us are defending organised religion here, we're just theorizing how MtF/FtM would violate their rules. Plus religion discussions tend to get out of hand.
On about what makes you gay? I would have to agree with 'wanting to have sex with men and only men'. I admit that I like cock in my pornos but only when it's pointing at a woman, this doesn't make me gay.
An XXY person is intersex. They are neither male nor female. Quite simply what we have is a situation where we don't have enough gender words. I personally would date someone who was female, or was intersex and presented as 100% female, which some do from birth, some are even fertile and only find out they are intersex when the have a whole body scan and it reveals they have extra organs.
Uh..XXY is either male or Kleinfelter's (male but with genetic disease).
As in, they have male genitalia, and they will develop as physiological males.
Hmm, isn't there a genetic combination like XXY which makes you female but with vestigial testes or something. I know there is XYY which causes enormous testosterone imbalances and also makes you sterile. I'm sure I recall reading about intersex people who presented as male or female, and just never found out until they had some condition (usually cancer of a sexual organ they didn't realise they had)
To repeat. XXY men are not intersex.
AIS (androgen insensitivity syndrome) with complete androgen insensitivity generally presents as women with testicles (internal). External genitalia development is dependant on testosterone, internal plumbing isn't, so when the body can't respond to testosterone (and would otherwise be male) you end up with normal female exterior and male plumbing.
Intersex individuals generally do not have chromosomal abnormalities. We don't know exactly what causes most cases of intersex individuals. Incomplete AIS can lead to the person being intersex.
There is a genetic mutation that is relatively common in some parts of the carribean that leads to genetically male individuals having female external genitalia until puberty when they grow a penis and develop other male secondary sex characteristics.
Kistra on
Animal Crossing: City Folk Lissa in Filmore 3179-9580-0076
Anyway, to get away from the specifics of christian theology, I do think it's fair to say that "christians don't do transsexuals" is not anywhere close to being common knowledge on the "muslims don't eat pork" level. So that seems to put the burden of disclosure at an impasse unless there's data on the general acceptance of transsexuals that we can look at.
If I were the transgendered person in that situation, I would be up front about it. However, my idealism and the nature of our society are often at odds, and I can definitely see someone not wanting to be as forthcoming.
I would argue that it IS common knowledge. Christians don't do homosexual relationships of any kind and they frown upon transgendered people. The Southern Baptist Convention and the Catholic church have been rather outspoken about it.
I disagree that it's a homosexual relationship.
THIS
THIS
bama make out with me (see this is a homosexual relationship.)
I don't think it's homosexual either, but I think it definitely warrants a heads up from a prospective partner.
Also, getting gender reassingment surgery is probably violating the 'your body is a temple' rule.
So is Burger King, but for some reason I don't see any organized religious protests over the 3,000 calorie whopper sandwhich.
The whole religious angle really doesn't fit the topic we've been discussing, so maybe we should just let it go.
in a sense it does, in a sense it doesn't.
Religious belief does shape a given society's view on transgendered people, you can't deny that. A predominatly Abrahamic Religious society will not accept transgendered any more than any other group viewed as deviant as defined within the confines of their given religious text.
If this is what you learned as a child, even though you may longer adhere to the core of that religion as an adult, you may react according to that religious text if it were disclosed that the man or woman you had been seeing did not start out life as a man or woman as defined by that religious text.
In that way, it fits directly into this conversation.
Yeah, none of us are defending organised religion here, we're just theorizing how MtF/FtM would violate their rules. Plus religion discussions tend to get out of hand.
On about what makes you gay? I would have to agree with 'wanting to have sex with men and only men'. I admit that I like cock in my pornos but only when it's pointing at a woman, this doesn't make me gay.
Also, in before someone misquotes me for lulz.
This reminds of of a Ron White joke that goes something like "I think everyone is a little gay. Now, if I say that to some of my friend's they'll say 'no way man, I ain't gay' and I'll ask him 'Do you watch porn?' and he'll say 'Hell yea, man! I love watching porn!' and I'll say 'Well, do you like for the guy in the porn to have a small, flaccid pens?' 'No way, I like big hard co... ...I did not know that about myself.'"
Anyway, to get away from the specifics of christian theology, I do think it's fair to say that "christians don't do transsexuals" is not anywhere close to being common knowledge on the "muslims don't eat pork" level. So that seems to put the burden of disclosure at an impasse unless there's data on the general acceptance of transsexuals that we can look at.
If I were the transgendered person in that situation, I would be up front about it. However, my idealism and the nature of our society are often at odds, and I can definitely see someone not wanting to be as forthcoming.
I would argue that it IS common knowledge. Christians don't do homosexual relationships of any kind and they frown upon transgendered people. The Southern Baptist Convention and the Catholic church have been rather outspoken about it.
I disagree that it's a homosexual relationship.
I'm not saying it is either. I'm saying precisely what I wrote without alluding to anything else.
Wow, it really is exactly as I thought it was. Everyone (with exceptions) views this whole topic as "but I don't wanna be forced to have sex with a transsexual!"
Like, that is the entire reasoning right there. Like, guys, guess what - it'll never happen if you never happen to start dating one and get to that point. Or you know, apply what you keep preaching and are upfront to every women you meet that you would not be cool with it if she were a transsexual. I'm sure the transsexuals would be most accomodating in reciprocating that.
EDIT: Also pretty much everything else is cover for unresolved issues of homophobia. I mean, why are people freaked - because really, it would mean you had sex with a guy. OH MY GOD! YOU WILL HAVE CAUGHT THE GHEY!
That's a pretty awesome mischaracterization. It's not that I think having sex with an MTF would make me gay, it's that I'm not gay and thus don't want to. I view the MTF body as still male, whether I can tell or not, so I don't want to have sex with an MTF. Because I'm not gay.
It's like you're saying that any guy who doesn't want to have sex with another guy is a homophobe. No, we're just not gay.
Catching up. I'm not intentionally picking on you, Nostregar, but I feel I need to point this specific statement out:
I view the MTF body as still male, whether I can tell or not, so I don't want to have sex with an MTF. Because I'm not gay.
So, take a dysphoric male. Administer the proper hormones at the proper time. Perform surgical operations. You're left with a human that looks like a woman, thinks like a woman, and has the proper equipment to shag like a woman. If you hit that... it's gay?
Are you REALLY going to tell me that this is a "man"? Are you really going to tell me that if you slept with her, and she told you her past, you'd suddenly believe you just committed a homosexual act?
If you look back a page, you'll see where I defined why I think that the altered male body is still male. Because of that, I would tend to think of that model as physically male, yes.
I'm not saying they are a man. I'm saying they are physically male. Very different.
Would I consider sex with that model to be "gay"? Like I said a little bit back, hard to say. In theory I want to say yes, but until I actually was in the situation it's hard to tell you how I'd feel about it.
But that's just the thing. A human body is a human body. When you're done with this process, it's far, far closer to the traditional binary for "woman" than for "man". So, you're not sleeping with a man. You can say, "but she used to have a male body," but I can then say "and you used to have a female body." We're just drawing arbitrary lines at this point.
The hair example is perfect. If someone is born bald, and can't grow hair on their head, but through SCIENCE! we transplant natural-looking hair, is that person still bald? Maybe they have to stay on some medication to keep it healthy and growing. Are they just a bald person pretending to have hair? Or do they really have hair?
Where would you like to arbitrarily draw the line? Where will society eventually agree to draw it?
Like I said, I define it by where it would be without interference, not what it currently appears to be. The fact that all fetuses start female is moot - becoming male from there is a natural process that occurs automatically without special effort from anyone in the womb. If you automatically underwent the MTF surgery as part of being born or something, I wouldn't really be making this argument.
And on the bald thing, in that case I would probably be inclined to say that they are naturally bald but have hair through alteration. It just never matters, so the distinction is never important.
A question for the people who think MTFs are still men: Do you feel the same way about people with AIS? (male internal plumbing, female external genitalia, that way from birth)
I don't think an MTF is a man. I think they have a physically male body. Different.
For AIS, who knows. Do they appear female in all other aspects besides internal plumbing? Sure, consider them female or an additional category, whatever you want. I don't know enough about it to make an informed judgement. If they look female without any special surgery, I'd probably be pretty comfortable saying they are physically female or close enough not to matter.
I don't want to pile on to you either (hurf durf) but I really do believe that homophobia fits here. If they were a man, but are now physically a man as far as you can tell without chromosome analysis, then sleeping with a MtF in this sense, as a male DOES NOT MAKE YOU GAY.
I'll assume you meant "are now physically a woman" because that is the only way it makes sense. The problem with the homophobia thing is you're getting the causality reversed. I don't think that sleeping with an MTF makes me gay, I just don't want to sleep with one because I'm not gay.
If I slept with an MTF I wouldn't afterwards go OH FUCK I AM THE GAY, I would go "That was not what I wanted to be doing." You're really misconstruing this objection if you think that I believe having sex with an MTF magically turns me gay.
Yeah, none of us are defending organised religion here, we're just theorizing how MtF/FtM would violate their rules. Plus religion discussions tend to get out of hand.
On about what makes you gay? I would have to agree with 'wanting to have sex with men and only men'. I admit that I like cock in my pornos but only when it's pointing at a woman, this doesn't make me gay.
Also, in before someone misquotes me for lulz.
I'll resist the urge to pull part of that quote for laughs. But it's hard.
I never understood the people who were so offended by the sight of a dick in their porn. Dude, it's a dick, you have one, and there's a girl sucking on it. What's gay about that? If I see a picture / video of a girl sucking on a dick, it makes me think of a girl doing that to me. And that's a-o-k.
Would it be appropriate for a woman to dress up as a man and go to a gay bar and attempt to seduce gay guys? Would it be appropriate for a gay guy to dress up as a woman and go to a bar and attempt to seduce straight guys? Would either be justified in being upset, if, after getting them back to her place their potential partner was horrified at their gender? Of course not, since the assumption that you are your presented gender is a basic fact.
Transgendered people ARE their presented gender. That's what I'm getting at, and what you seem to be (?) denying. To compare a woman dressing up as a man to get laid with an FTM is either being disingenuous or making a mockery or showing a misunderstanding of transgenderism. We're just talking at each other, because we are not seeing this situation the same way at all.
Anyway, to get away from the specifics of christian theology, I do think it's fair to say that "christians don't do transsexuals" is not anywhere close to being common knowledge on the "muslims don't eat pork" level. So that seems to put the burden of disclosure at an impasse unless there's data on the general acceptance of transsexuals that we can look at.
If I were the transgendered person in that situation, I would be up front about it. However, my idealism and the nature of our society are often at odds, and I can definitely see someone not wanting to be as forthcoming.
I would argue that it IS common knowledge. Christians don't do homosexual relationships of any kind and they frown upon transgendered people. The Southern Baptist Convention and the Catholic church have been rather outspoken about it.
I disagree that it's a homosexual relationship.
If your view was anywhere near to the prevailing one, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I too disagree that its a homosexual relationship, however it is also not a heteronormal relationship. For most people the only relationship they will be involved in is one between them, and whichever is their opposite sex. The person of that sex must be the opposite sex in the way they appear, their genetics, and their history.
Posts
Deuteronomy 22:5 is where they will extract a ban on transgendered people from:
"The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God."
That's actually kind of the point.
But that's just the thing. A human body is a human body. When you're done with this process, it's far, far closer to the traditional binary for "woman" than for "man". So, you're not sleeping with a man. You can say, "but she used to have a male body," but I can then say "and you used to have a female body." We're just drawing arbitrary lines at this point.
The hair example is perfect. If someone is born bald, and can't grow hair on their head, but through SCIENCE! we transplant natural-looking hair, is that person still bald? Maybe they have to stay on some medication to keep it healthy and growing. Are they just a bald person pretending to have hair? Or do they really have hair?
Where would you like to arbitrarily draw the line? Where will society eventually agree to draw it?
Gonna have to put a current citation off till not on the work system as well. You know as well as I do that it doesn't have to be explicitly outlined in the bible for the system to be able to interpret meaning.
In any case, that is an objection to cross-dressing. Halloween is coming up, what if a Christian met an attractive mtf dressed like a man. If he disgusted by the cross-dressing, but later finds out that the person was really a "man" is he going to wish he'd hit that? Does his head explode?
I'd put money down on the exploding head thing.
Are you honestly going to say that you believe the Catholic Church finds that a man sleeping with a MtF transsexual is cool? This particular branch of the argument isn't whether you believe that the personal choices of people in the pursuit of their faiths is the correct thing, but rather focuses on the individual pursuit of beliefs without pushing them on others, and the acceptance of what is currently the norm or not the norm.
Which is to say don't drag it off topic.
Figured Catholics would be against it simply for the fact that you can't procreate.
But when have the Catholics ever really made sense?
An XXY person is intersex. They are neither male nor female. Quite simply what we have is a situation where we don't have enough gender words. I personally would date someone who was female, or was intersex and presented as 100% female, which some do from birth, some are even fertile and only find out they are intersex when the have a whole body scan and it reveals they have extra organs.
I would not date someone who was male, ftm trans, intersex presenting male, true hermaphroditic, or mtf trans. Its as simple as that. If you believe your gender is hidden, then it is your responsibility to reveal it at an appropriate time.
Would it be appropriate for a woman to dress up as a man and go to a gay bar and attempt to seduce gay guys? Would it be appropriate for a gay guy to dress up as a woman and go to a bar and attempt to seduce straight guys? Would either be justified in being upset, if, after getting them back to her place their potential partner was horrified at their gender? Of course not, since the assumption that you are your presented gender is a basic fact.
Also, getting gender reassingment surgery is probably violating the 'your body is a temple' rule.
Again, what is the basis for where people draw their line? It seems completely arbitrary. If a person's body is distinctly more female than male, why is their "gender" male?
(Wrong term, btw; gender is a societal construct, not biological. I believe you meant "sex". It may not seem important, but pages of this thread were dedicated to that difference earlier.)
Everytime I get that shit when talking about getting another tattoo I tell them that eating fried food and McDonald does more harm to the temple than a little ink.
and that pretty much sums up that entire branch of the discussion.
on to the next....
My wife telling me "I used to be bald" wouldn't be a dealbreaker so much as "I used to be a dude".
That's why I like the food analogies. People can have preferences based on their own gut reactions and nobody generally takes any offense. I think putting brown gravy on baked macaroni and cheese sounds pretty gross, but I know some people who think it's totally boss. I'm glad they enjoy it, I just don't want any because it isn't appetizing to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uVyEc0UfQs&feature=player_embedded
False, individuals with Kleinfelters are not intersex. They are male. Generally infertile and with a tendency to a certain "look" but 100% male.
And I just thought of a better version of the Muslim analogy. If a muslim doesn't like lamb that is fine but people are going to look at them weird if they start claiming that they can't eat lamb because it is pork and against their religion.
A transitioning/ed transgender person is not their original sex. I don't care if you consider them a "normal" example of their gender or not, they are no longer biologically their original sex. I can kinda see considering them a separate category.
A question for the people who think MTFs are still men: Do you feel the same way about people with AIS? (male internal plumbing, female external genitalia, that way from birth)
What if in the future transgender people could have the surgery before puberty and go through a normal female puberty?
EDIT for extra biology: The extra X chromosome in women and XXY men condenses into a Barr body and isn't used unless something isn't working on the primary X chromosome.
Uh..XXY is either male or Kleinfelter's (male but with genetic disease).
As in, they have male genitalia, and they will develop as physiological males.
I don't want to pile on to you either (hurf durf) but I really do believe that homophobia fits here. If they were a man, but are now physically a man as far as you can tell without chromosome analysis, then sleeping with a MtF in this sense, as a male DOES NOT MAKE YOU GAY.
You know what makes you gay? THINKING AN ERECT PHALLUS IS ATTRACTIVE
Thinking something that looks like a vagina, feels like a vagina, and has some titties like the physical sex that generally has a vagina is attractive makes you a paragon of male virtue.
And if we take the evo psych argument, makes you a HUGE BIG MAN because you are all ABOUT banging something that MAY be female.
Actually, even that could be argued. I think a safer statement is that if you are aroused by the thought of having sex with men and only men, you are gay. Some people like "dick girls" (it's an anime thing...look it up if you're in the mood) but don't actually identify as gay.
If I were the transgendered person in that situation, I would be up front about it. However, my idealism and the nature of our society are often at odds, and I can definitely see someone not wanting to be as forthcoming.
Hmm, isn't there a genetic combination like XXY which makes you female but with vestigial testes or something. I know there is XYY which causes enormous testosterone imbalances and also makes you sterile. I'm sure I recall reading about intersex people who presented as male or female, and just never found out until they had some condition (usually cancer of a sexual organ they didn't realise they had)
So is Burger King, but for some reason I don't see any organized religious protests over the 3,000 calorie whopper sandwhich.
I would argue that it IS common knowledge. Christians don't do homosexual relationships of any kind and they frown upon transgendered people. The Southern Baptist Convention and the Catholic church have been rather outspoken about it.
The whole religious angle really doesn't fit the topic we've been discussing, so maybe we should just let it go.
Come on. It's disingenuous to say, "Well, I don't have any numbers in front of me, so I couldn't possibly speculate as to how many people would be comfortable having sex with a TG."
If there are enough extremists out there to create an atmosphere in which people don't feel comfortable walking down the street openly TG, then any rock you throw is going to land on someone who at least isn't comfortable fucking one. I would think it's pretty reasonable to say that, outside of specific places, anybody you pick out of a crowd would not be cool with it.
Using the "dangerous environment" to cop out of being honest only to conclude that "well, they'd probably be cool with it anyway" is really pretty stupid in a way that doesn't have anything to do with sexuality.
THIS
THIS
bama make out with me (see this is a homosexual relationship.)
On about what makes you gay? I would have to agree with 'wanting to have sex with men and only men'. I admit that I like cock in my pornos but only when it's pointing at a woman, this doesn't make me gay.
Also, in before someone misquotes me for lulz.
To repeat. XXY men are not intersex.
AIS (androgen insensitivity syndrome) with complete androgen insensitivity generally presents as women with testicles (internal). External genitalia development is dependant on testosterone, internal plumbing isn't, so when the body can't respond to testosterone (and would otherwise be male) you end up with normal female exterior and male plumbing.
Intersex individuals generally do not have chromosomal abnormalities. We don't know exactly what causes most cases of intersex individuals. Incomplete AIS can lead to the person being intersex.
There is a genetic mutation that is relatively common in some parts of the carribean that leads to genetically male individuals having female external genitalia until puberty when they grow a penis and develop other male secondary sex characteristics.
I don't think it's homosexual either, but I think it definitely warrants a heads up from a prospective partner.
in a sense it does, in a sense it doesn't.
Religious belief does shape a given society's view on transgendered people, you can't deny that. A predominatly Abrahamic Religious society will not accept transgendered any more than any other group viewed as deviant as defined within the confines of their given religious text.
If this is what you learned as a child, even though you may longer adhere to the core of that religion as an adult, you may react according to that religious text if it were disclosed that the man or woman you had been seeing did not start out life as a man or woman as defined by that religious text.
In that way, it fits directly into this conversation.
I'm not saying it is either. I'm saying precisely what I wrote without alluding to anything else.
Like I said, I define it by where it would be without interference, not what it currently appears to be. The fact that all fetuses start female is moot - becoming male from there is a natural process that occurs automatically without special effort from anyone in the womb. If you automatically underwent the MTF surgery as part of being born or something, I wouldn't really be making this argument.
And on the bald thing, in that case I would probably be inclined to say that they are naturally bald but have hair through alteration. It just never matters, so the distinction is never important.
I don't think an MTF is a man. I think they have a physically male body. Different.
For AIS, who knows. Do they appear female in all other aspects besides internal plumbing? Sure, consider them female or an additional category, whatever you want. I don't know enough about it to make an informed judgement. If they look female without any special surgery, I'd probably be pretty comfortable saying they are physically female or close enough not to matter.
I'll assume you meant "are now physically a woman" because that is the only way it makes sense. The problem with the homophobia thing is you're getting the causality reversed. I don't think that sleeping with an MTF makes me gay, I just don't want to sleep with one because I'm not gay.
If I slept with an MTF I wouldn't afterwards go OH FUCK I AM THE GAY, I would go "That was not what I wanted to be doing." You're really misconstruing this objection if you think that I believe having sex with an MTF magically turns me gay.
I'll resist the urge to pull part of that quote for laughs. But it's hard.
I never understood the people who were so offended by the sight of a dick in their porn. Dude, it's a dick, you have one, and there's a girl sucking on it. What's gay about that? If I see a picture / video of a girl sucking on a dick, it makes me think of a girl doing that to me. And that's a-o-k.
Transgendered people ARE their presented gender. That's what I'm getting at, and what you seem to be (?) denying. To compare a woman dressing up as a man to get laid with an FTM is either being disingenuous or making a mockery or showing a misunderstanding of transgenderism. We're just talking at each other, because we are not seeing this situation the same way at all.
If your view was anywhere near to the prevailing one, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I too disagree that its a homosexual relationship, however it is also not a heteronormal relationship. For most people the only relationship they will be involved in is one between them, and whichever is their opposite sex. The person of that sex must be the opposite sex in the way they appear, their genetics, and their history.