Rather than bloodrage I'd take glyph of thunderclap, to help combat mobs being stupid with their positioning.
I used to think that, but that glyph is what, two yards extra? With a little finesse you can definitely do without it, whereas Bloodrage should be getting used frequently to keep the Heroic Strikes coming, and doing damage to yourself is slightly counter-productive from a tanking perspective.
The damage bloodrage does is pretty insignificant. 1300 isn't going to be your margin of survival against bosses that hit for 10k+, and if it is, you should know better than to bloodrage while at low health. Rage for heroic strikes, between focused rage, improve heroic strike, and getting a full rage bar every time you're smacked, is pretty much a nonissue.
Finesse matters little when mob pathing is being retarded, I think. I've had mobs walk through me to stand behind me and attack, after pulling them, so many times that I'm going to do everything I can to prop up my lackluster AoE threat's area.
Are we talking heroics or raid encounters here? If you ever raid tank, glyphing TC over Bloodrage is plainly stupid. Having rage on demand in threat-sensitive fights like General Vezax or Hodir is important, and not jeopardizing your survival for it is several times more valuable than being able to be sloppy on your 5-man pulls. For the 9 deaths out of 10 where you wouldn't have survived by that amount of HP, your argument holds water, but personally I am not okay with it happening even just that one other time.
I really don't have a clue how mobs walking behind you presents issues for your Thunderclap range, either.
I could just as easily say the thunder clap minor glyph is more important in raids because it means the trash that actually hits hard is more easily picked up before it one shots a healer.
The bloodrage glyph remains useless. All those 'threat sensitive' fights like Vezax and Hodir hard have enough incoming tank damage that I have enough rage to heroic strike every single white swing anyway, so I don't even use bloodrage mid fight.
And if I did, I wouldn't be stupid enough to use it unless I had full health. Unless your healers are doing 0% overhealing(they're not) then doing 1200 damage to yourself is not going to get you killed.
It's a given that all minor glyphs are going to be marginally effective, but if you frequently find yourself needing a grand total of 2 yards to your thunderclap to pick things up, you could be doing a better job.
I just don't like glyphing for things that I could solve by playing better, hence my preference for Bloodrage.
Here's an interesting question since someone mentioned heroic strike. My buddy is a tank on his warrior, been one for a while, but he continually tells me he doesn't put heroic strike to use. Is he an idget?
Here's an interesting question since someone mentioned heroic strike. My buddy is a tank on his warrior, been one for a while, but he continually tells me he doesn't put heroic strike to use. Is he an idiot?
Here's an interesting question since someone mentioned heroic strike. My buddy is a tank on his warrior, been one for a while, but he continually tells me he doesn't put heroic strike to use. Is he an idget?
I wouldn't call him an idget for that if no one's told him otherwise. If people have been telling him otherwise often, then yeah.
By which I mean: he needs to put it to use right now.
Here's an interesting question since someone mentioned heroic strike. My buddy is a tank on his warrior, been one for a while, but he continually tells me he doesn't put heroic strike to use. Is he an idget?
If he's tanking instances, yes. Any time you have only one target, you should be using HS on every swing, rage permitting - heroic strike does much more damage than a normal swing, doesn't glance, and does increased threat.
I've been telling him constantly His excuse has been it doesn't seem to gain enough threat, fucker needs to be queing it up all the time. Seriously at one point he told someone he had slight threat issues, they told him to raise his hit/expertise. Is that good? Yes, but I bet your ass that him putting our biggest threat builder to use would have done just as much. Like trying to tank on a DK without using Runestrike...
I have not encountered a "threat sensitive" fight in WotLK. There is not a single fight I've had agro issues on.
But we also have really good rogues and hunters in my guild.
I find that really hard to believe. If you don't cut it very close with Vezax and Hodir, you're guild probably isn't hard mode capable.
Read the second sentence. TotT and Misdirect are part of their rotations. Our Rogues and Hunters are our top 4 DPSers.
Really, agro is only ever a problem if someone goes all bursty in the beginning because anything is established.
WotLK does not have an agro table as far as I'm concerned.
It's all a matter of perspective, I guess. Especially with Hodir and Vezax, I've got over 10k TPS to contend with on a regular basis, so being rage starved even for a moment is a wipe waiting to happen.
Outside of those Bloodrage is much less important, though, I agree.
I've been telling him constantly His excuse has been it doesn't seem to gain enough threat, fucker needs to be queing it up all the time. Seriously at one point he told someone he had slight threat issues, they told him to raise his hit/expertise. Is that good? Yes, but I bet your ass that him putting our biggest threat builder to use would have done just as much. Like trying to tank on a DK without using Runestrike...
Yes in that case he needs a good smack upside the head. A good way to judge a warrior's worth is by his rage bar - if it is always full, that warrior is doing it wrong. Make fun of him at every opportunity for this.
I've been telling him constantly His excuse has been it doesn't seem to gain enough threat, fucker needs to be queing it up all the time. Seriously at one point he told someone he had slight threat issues, they told him to raise his hit/expertise. Is that good? Yes, but I bet your ass that him putting our biggest threat builder to use would have done just as much. Like trying to tank on a DK without using Runestrike...
Yes in that case he needs a good smack upside the head. A good way to judge a warrior's worth is by his rage bar - if it is always full, that warrior is doing it wrong. Make fun of him at every opportunity for this.
I seem to remember a time when Heroic Strike was just not done past a certain level. Or it was the last thing a Warrior did since Sunder/Devestate did more threat. But from what I have been seeing lately, Sunder/Devestate has become the thing you apply while other things are on cooldown or unavailable.
If he still has rage left over after doing his normal threat rotation, what in god's name does he think he's doing with that rage!? You must heroic strike, or your threat is going to suck balls on a raid boss.
I have not encountered a "threat sensitive" fight in WotLK. There is not a single fight I've had agro issues on.
But we also have really good rogues and hunters in my guild.
I find that really hard to believe. If you don't cut it very close with Vezax and Hodir, you're guild probably isn't hard mode capable.
Read the second sentence. TotT and Misdirect are part of their rotations. Our Rogues and Hunters are our top 4 DPSers.
Really, agro is only ever a problem if someone goes all bursty in the beginning because anything is established.
WotLK does not have an agro table as far as I'm concerned.
You must not have tanked Hodir hard mode for any superb DPSers then. My guild's best rogue did 14k DPS on that fight last week in 10 man. Believe me when I say it took him vanishing and getting a hand of salv to keep him alive, and I'm as good as Warrior tanks come.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
I have not encountered a "threat sensitive" fight in WotLK. There is not a single fight I've had agro issues on.
But we also have really good rogues and hunters in my guild.
I find that really hard to believe. If you don't cut it very close with Vezax and Hodir, you're guild probably isn't hard mode capable.
Read the second sentence. TotT and Misdirect are part of their rotations. Our Rogues and Hunters are our top 4 DPSers.
Really, agro is only ever a problem if someone goes all bursty in the beginning because anything is established.
WotLK does not have an agro table as far as I'm concerned.
You must not have tanked Hodir hard mode for any superb DPSers then. My guild's best rogue did 14k DPS on that fight last week in 10 man. Believe me when I say it took him vanishing and getting a hand of salv to keep him alive, and I'm as good as Warrior tanks come.
So then why are you saying its not a threat sensitive fight?
They should change the tooltip on the Thunder Clap minor glyph to "Increases the radius of Thunder Clap by 25%."
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited November 2009
thats a good idea, make it so people will realise it is a basically mandatory glyph for any warrior trying to tank anything
ever run in to pick up a trash pack and a healer pulls aggro just as you charge and one mob makes it far enough out of your thunderclap range? i know that happens to me a fuckload. glyph would save you.
thats a good idea, make it so people will realise it is a basically mandatory glyph for any warrior trying to tank anything
ever run in to pick up a trash pack and a healer pulls aggro just as you charge and one mob makes it far enough out of your thunderclap range? i know that happens to me a fuckload. glyph would save you.
God damned healers using shield after you start combat but before you actually have aggro.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited November 2009
i have found that it is not common knowledge that EVERYTHING you do causes threat. even something nonsensical like casting Blessing of Kings on yourself, or buffing yourself with a Seal as a paladin causes threat, and if a tank has only proximity-pulled, the entire pack is coming for you.
Whenever that happens to me, it's because the tank didn't give me any time to rebuff him before pulling. Not saying you're at fault, but it's something to keep in mind.
Edit: Actually, now that I think of it, a lot of the time it's because the tank waits too long, and by the time he finally gets around to pulling, my shield's nearly dropped off and I have to rebuff. I don't pug anymore though, and my guild's tanks tend to be pretty confident, so it doesn't happen as often as it used to.
i have found that it is not common knowledge that EVERYTHING you do causes threat. even something nonsensical like casting Blessing of Kings on yourself, or buffing yourself with a Seal as a paladin causes threat, and if a tank has only proximity-pulled, the entire pack is coming for you.
It's usually not a huge concern, though. As a holy spec paladin I'll often judge well before the tank has aggro on a boss and pull aggro for a brief moment; it never matters because they have it under control instantly without even bothering to taunt, and it gives me a free GCD so I don't have to waste an early one on getting my haste buff up. This is with experienced raid tanks, however, so if you're pugging, might want to be more careful.
Also, there are a few cases you don't want to do that. I accidentally bludgeoned my Judge key setting up for Algalon. That was a tense few seconds as he ran straight for me upon exiting invulnerability.
i have found that it is not common knowledge that EVERYTHING you do causes threat. even something nonsensical like casting Blessing of Kings on yourself, or buffing yourself with a Seal as a paladin causes threat, and if a tank has only proximity-pulled, the entire pack is coming for you.
Back during Vanilla my guild was sure to remind DPS Warriors that if they used Bloodrage and pulled aggro they would be penalized.
The issue that happened is that offtank #2 never got hit, because offtank #1 was getting healed too fast. Thus, offtank#2 didnt' generate much threat, getting passed in threat by a melee, who then ate a hateful when Patch decided to use it while offtank #1 didn't get healed quite as fast, late in the fight. Should've just had offtank #2 be a DK
Second and third highest threat get attacked with hateful strikes. HP has nothing to do with it (it did at level 60, not at 80), only where you are on the threat charts and whether or not you're melee. The other offtank being topped off is completely irrelevant. I parried and dodged every single hateful strike that came my way and I wasn't able to generate any rage or agro (no rage to use shield slam or HS), so I got surpassed by one of the melee DPS who then ate a few hateful and died.
We were farming the block bracers from Maexxna and one of our guys suggested seeing how fast we could kill Patchwerk for fun. It took us 1:39 even with that one guy dead for half the fight. Probably would have been under 1:30 if he was alive.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited November 2009
Actually, HP does have something to do with it. But so does threat.
He will hit either the second or third highest on threat with a hateful, whichever of those two happens to be higher HP. It is possible to two-tank him for this reason.
HP has nothing to do with it. Stop believing the false rumors.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited November 2009
I have two tanked Patchwerk on 25man before. If your theory is correct, that should not be possible because the melee DPS would all die. Since it is not impossible, your theory is wrong.
Oops, you lose.
Dhalphir on
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SmasherStarting to get dizzyRegistered Userregular
edited November 2009
The false rumors (at least at 80) were that any melee could be hit if their HP was the highest besides the MT, which is why people thought they had to dip into the slime constantly.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited November 2009
Yep. As long as you're not 2nd or 3rd on threat you won't get hit, but determining which among those two takes the hatefuls is done by HP.
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I could just as easily say the thunder clap minor glyph is more important in raids because it means the trash that actually hits hard is more easily picked up before it one shots a healer.
The bloodrage glyph remains useless. All those 'threat sensitive' fights like Vezax and Hodir hard have enough incoming tank damage that I have enough rage to heroic strike every single white swing anyway, so I don't even use bloodrage mid fight.
And if I did, I wouldn't be stupid enough to use it unless I had full health. Unless your healers are doing 0% overhealing(they're not) then doing 1200 damage to yourself is not going to get you killed.
I just don't like glyphing for things that I could solve by playing better, hence my preference for Bloodrage.
I wouldn't call him an idget for that if no one's told him otherwise. If people have been telling him otherwise often, then yeah.
By which I mean: he needs to put it to use right now.
If he's tanking instances, yes. Any time you have only one target, you should be using HS on every swing, rage permitting - heroic strike does much more damage than a normal swing, doesn't glance, and does increased threat.
Read the second sentence. TotT and Misdirect are part of their rotations. Our Rogues and Hunters are our top 4 DPSers.
Really, agro is only ever a problem if someone goes all bursty in the beginning because anything is established.
WotLK does not have an agro table as far as I'm concerned.
Outside of those Bloodrage is much less important, though, I agree.
Yes in that case he needs a good smack upside the head. A good way to judge a warrior's worth is by his rage bar - if it is always full, that warrior is doing it wrong. Make fun of him at every opportunity for this.
I seem to remember a time when Heroic Strike was just not done past a certain level. Or it was the last thing a Warrior did since Sunder/Devestate did more threat. But from what I have been seeing lately, Sunder/Devestate has become the thing you apply while other things are on cooldown or unavailable.
You must not have tanked Hodir hard mode for any superb DPSers then. My guild's best rogue did 14k DPS on that fight last week in 10 man. Believe me when I say it took him vanishing and getting a hand of salv to keep him alive, and I'm as good as Warrior tanks come.
So then why are you saying its not a threat sensitive fight?
ever run in to pick up a trash pack and a healer pulls aggro just as you charge and one mob makes it far enough out of your thunderclap range? i know that happens to me a fuckload. glyph would save you.
God damned healers using shield after you start combat but before you actually have aggro.
Edit: Actually, now that I think of it, a lot of the time it's because the tank waits too long, and by the time he finally gets around to pulling, my shield's nearly dropped off and I have to rebuff. I don't pug anymore though, and my guild's tanks tend to be pretty confident, so it doesn't happen as often as it used to.
It's usually not a huge concern, though. As a holy spec paladin I'll often judge well before the tank has aggro on a boss and pull aggro for a brief moment; it never matters because they have it under control instantly without even bothering to taunt, and it gives me a free GCD so I don't have to waste an early one on getting my haste buff up. This is with experienced raid tanks, however, so if you're pugging, might want to be more careful.
Also, there are a few cases you don't want to do that. I accidentally bludgeoned my Judge key setting up for Algalon. That was a tense few seconds as he ran straight for me upon exiting invulnerability.
Back during Vanilla my guild was sure to remind DPS Warriors that if they used Bloodrage and pulled aggro they would be penalized.
Patchwerk.
In 245 gear.
I took 0 damage as the third tank and thus, couldn't keep one of our melee DPS from going passed me and getting owned by Hatefuls.
I wish I still had the recount. I don't even show up on the damage taken chart.
MT gets hit like normal.
Second and third highest threat get attacked with hateful strikes. HP has nothing to do with it (it did at level 60, not at 80), only where you are on the threat charts and whether or not you're melee. The other offtank being topped off is completely irrelevant. I parried and dodged every single hateful strike that came my way and I wasn't able to generate any rage or agro (no rage to use shield slam or HS), so I got surpassed by one of the melee DPS who then ate a few hateful and died.
We were farming the block bracers from Maexxna and one of our guys suggested seeing how fast we could kill Patchwerk for fun. It took us 1:39 even with that one guy dead for half the fight. Probably would have been under 1:30 if he was alive.
He will hit either the second or third highest on threat with a hateful, whichever of those two happens to be higher HP. It is possible to two-tank him for this reason.
Oops, you lose.