on topic, do you think that it's a decline of manners at the root of the problem, or a decline in the idea that people should sometimes do things they don't want to do? I mean you're always at the risk of succumbing to the recency illusion, but as we move more towards a society that values convenience I think you can see a corresponding unwillingness to be inconvenienced, even at the expense of others.
Most problems in society seem to me to be outgrowths of Boomer attitudes, but I am probably a little myopic. :P
The concept that self-expression is the highest value and most central human right seems to gel with the refusal to follow basic social standards. I guess this isn't too far off from the primacy of personal convenience. In both cases it's pretty much the fetishization of individuality.
Restaurants with a dress code (implicit or explicit) exist because people want to dress up to go out to a place as an event - an environment that the other diners are also presumably respecting.
I'm sorry, that is absolutely not the case, except in your own mind.
Restaurants with a dress code exist to keep the proles out. That is the history of the phenomenon, which by the way doesn't seem to exist in some of the more egalitarian cultures in the world.
Whatever the history of the phenomenon, the reason I dress up to go to a nice restaurant where people dress up is because I like that ambience for that occasion, and I respect the other diners to show them the same respect.
But I don't know - let's hear your theory for why people dress nicely to go to a nice restaurant. They want to sneer at proles? They want to disrespect irish working-class culture?
Why do people dress up and ask their guests to dress up at weddings? Even salt-of-the-earth working-class people do this.
I dressed like a punk all the time when I was younger and still do to a degree when I go out to a townie bar or somewhere that it's appropriate. Where it's not appropriate I do not.
It's obvious that many people have internalised the class structures of their society. Suits are 'nice', other clothes are not.
Why do people dress up in restaurants with dress codes? A big mix of people who feel like you, along with other people who wish they didn't have to put on a stupid tie to eat nicely.
It doesn't change the fact that it's based on a history of exclusion and snobbery, which isn't something we should just accept.
Why do people say "please" after a request and "thank you" in response to a nicety? There are etymological reasons and they are steeped in the history of American culture, and it is no more or less arbitrary than the suit connoting "dressy" in the US (which IIRC comes from military uniforms?)
I don't go to church, but sometimes when I'm actually awake on Sunday mornings I see the older Italian and Portuguese people going to the church on the corner. They are wearing their Sunday best, presumably to show respect to the institution? Maybe because it feels good to dress up on occasion and go somewhere that everyone is on their best behavior? These are not rich people - I see some of them rummaging through recycling bins on Thursday nights trying to get enough bottles and cans to make a little scratch at the redemption - but they are making an effort to dress up and show respect.
I understand that you have a class-resentment chip on your shoulder, but dressing appropriately is not always about perpetuating class divisions. If anything, I see rich people insisting on their right to dress however they want wherever they go. The little people follow dress codes, but important people wear polos and jeans because they can. Suits are for accountants and office drones.
I keep telling you that there isn't one culture, but that doesn't suit your argument so you pretend otherwise. There are a multipilicity of cultures engaged in dialogues with one another, sometimes vying for supremacy. One of the ways that a member of a culture can achieve cultural dominance is to pretend that their culture is the only one. This is what you're doing right now.
You seem unaware of the history of clothing and of culture that has led us to this point. You also conflate being on best behaviour with wearing a suit.
Saying I have a 'chip on my shoulder' is just a rhetorical way of ignoring my point. I honestly don't know how you can not be aware that there are other cultures with other ways of assessing clothes than your own culture. This is basic stuff. I shouldn't have to explain it to any educated adult.
Wow! This sure has gone places since my post 10 pages ago.
Look, some people are saying, yes, you probably will be judged based on your clothing. If you walk into a job interview for an executive position wearing bermuda shorts, you probably won't get the job.
I know you're offended by this but why argue the point? It's a simple reality. 100k+ jobs--it's going to be an odd job if they hire you if you come in wearing tattered jean shorts.
As for the restaurants I am surprised to see an irish person thinking that dressing up is some elitist thing. I'm sure some feel that way, but do you live in Europe or Britain? Have you been there ever? A lot of people--of all social classes--dress very nicely regardless. I've seen people with a dime in their pocket wearing a suit: granted an old one and a faded one, but still a suit, still trying to dress nicely.
Also, yes, some of us dress nicely to show respect--much like the elderly immigrants that Irond sees walking to church. No one made them. It's a sign of respect, not a way to keep out the poor. Really people. For the "comfort embracing" "non-judgmental" group you've certainly made as many judgments as the person who called you all "ignorant chimps". You are portraying everyone who likes to dress well & does it out of respect as being elitist chumps.
I keep telling you that there isn't one culture, but that doesn't suit your argument so you pretend otherwise.
Posh, really, he's said it's not a SUIT that is required, but that it's good to dress appropriate to the culture you are in. When in rome do as the romans do. He's not saying you need to wear a suit on your weekend off, but that you should wear APPROPRIATE clothing for a job interview. I mean really, just drop that bone.
should we look down on poor people? because the desperately poor simply cannot afford to spend money on clothes that look good. Looking good in clothes is pretty much reserved for the middle class and above.
should we look down on poor people? because the desperately poor simply cannot afford to spend money on clothes that look good. Looking good in clothes is pretty much reserved for the middle class and above.
Apparently you haven't read the last 20 pages where people said it's not those who don't have money, but those who do who choose to ignore custom & politeness, such as the people wearing baseball caps in the fancy restaurant, or the ones who go to an executive level job interview in bermuda shorts because the suit was just too stuffy for a 150k a year job.
Wow! This sure has gone places since my post 10 pages ago.
Look, some people are saying, yes, you probably will be judged based on your clothing. If you walk into a job interview for an executive position wearing bermuda shorts, you probably won't get the job.
I know you're offended by this but why argue the point? It's a simple reality. 100k+ jobs--it's going to be an odd job if they hire you if you come in wearing tattered jean shorts.
As for the restaurants I am surprised to see an irish person thinking that dressing up is some elitist thing. I'm sure some feel that way, but do you live in Europe or Britain? Have you been there ever? A lot of people--of all social classes--dress very nicely regardless. I've seen people with a dime in their pocket wearing a suit: granted an old one and a faded one, but still a suit, still trying to dress nicely.
Also, yes, some of us dress nicely to show respect--much like the elderly immigrants that Irond sees walking to church. No one made them. It's a sign of respect, not a way to keep out the poor. Really people. For the "comfort embracing" "non-judgmental" group you've certainly made as many judgments as the person who called you all "ignorant chimps". You are portraying everyone who likes to dress well & does it out of respect as being elitist chumps.
I keep telling you that there isn't one culture, but that doesn't suit your argument so you pretend otherwise.
Posh, really, he's said it's not a SUIT that is required, but that it's good to dress appropriate to the culture you are in. When in rome do as the romans do. He's not saying you need to wear a suit on your weekend off, but that you should wear APPROPRIATE clothing for a job interview. I mean really, just drop that bone.
Of course I've been to Europe. I'm from there. I don't understand what you mean.
I'm not saying that people who dress 'nice' are elitists. I'm trying to say three things:
(1) The nice people who dress 'nice' and don't judge others for their clothes are not snobs at all but do choose the way they dress because they've internalised a class-influenced sense of fashion.
(2) The people who dress 'nice' and do judge others for their clothes are snobs. Plenty of that in this thread.
(3) Taste in fashion is subjective, and there isn't one idea of 'nice'. Suits are not 'nice' to many many people.
Argh I think I have to stop posting here because talking to adults, grown men and women, who believe that there's only one culture in the world, or even in the US, is making me angry.
none of us think there is ONE CULTURE. Please re-read my post where I address your opinion on that. You've clearly mis-read quite a bit, and chosen to focus on one aspect of the conversation. Don't insult me and belittle me because you've failed to understand the point.
To address the meat of your post:
The notion that they are "judging" is because a few people spoke very strongly against the idea of dressing nicely at all: including saying that if people showed up for job interviews in suits, they'd not get the job for being "desperate". I think you're seeing the pendulum swing, and you're just adding to it by sounding equally illogical.
Your basic point of not passing cruel judgments on unknown people is probably almost equally shared here. However, some of the posters are trying to make the point that if you dress incredibly out of proportion for where you are, others will judge you.
Take your job. You've said you dress up nicely for it. Why? If it's just garbage and everyone judging you is crazy, why is it you are so outnumbered that you have to conform? I mean there is some valid reason to judge: let's say you are a woman, and a guy in shabby clothes and a baseball cap asks you out. He's wearing clothes that don't fit with holes in them. Do you have to date him? Or can you not want to date someone dressed that way? Let's say he's wearing bermuda shorts and you just hate bermuda shorts. Do you have to date him?
No--and I personally think it's fine to make decisions that way. You can choose who you associate with. I bet you don't hang out with people in tailored shirts outside of work hours. No one is going to say that's judgmental on your part, it's your thing, and your right. But it works both ways.
should we look down on poor people? because the desperately poor simply cannot afford to spend money on clothes that look good. Looking good in clothes is pretty much reserved for the middle class and above.
And your comment that we dress nice because we've internalised group think is lovely, just lovely--I love how while saying incredibly insulting things you make it sound like you are some paragon of intellect and elegance, but really you're just a jerk who loves bermuda shorts. That's fine man, wear 'em and love 'em, no one is saying you can't. Why you're so hell bent on proving it is beyond me & it's not worth responding to someone who fills his replies with snipes and accusations of group-think, snobbery, cultural elitism, and ugly americanism. Low blows, uncalled for, and unwarranted by the responses and posts to date.
Are we just accepting that software development jobs are way outside the norm as far as what's expected of your attire, both at work and in interviews?
And your comment that we dress nice because we've internalised group think is lovely, just lovely--I love how while saying incredibly insulting things you make it sound like you are some paragon of intellect and elegance, but really you're just a jerk who loves bermuda shorts. That's fine man, wear 'em and love 'em, no one is saying you can't. Why you're so hell bent on proving it is beyond me & it's not worth responding to someone who fills his replies with snipes and accusations of group-think, snobbery, cultural elitism, and ugly americanism. Low blows, uncalled for, and unwarranted by the responses and posts to date.
should we look down on poor people? because the desperately poor simply cannot afford to spend money on clothes that look good. Looking good in clothes is pretty much reserved for the middle class and above.
Bullshit.
look, the poor in this country are real goddamn poor.
Right: I've read that and brought up the ignorant chimp one in particular. I also pointed out that the other side seemed as full of self-righteous hyperbole as well, and that it'd be better to take it down a notch. In response you paint me as a deluded victim of group-think and an ugly american. Thanks. I appreciate the calm and level headed approach to conversation.
should we look down on poor people? because the desperately poor simply cannot afford to spend money on clothes that look good. Looking good in clothes is pretty much reserved for the middle class and above.
Bullshit.
look, the poor in this country are real goddamn poor.
And clothing in this country is really goddamn cheap. So unless you're talking about people wearing burlap sacks cinched with a rope you are objectively wrong. I've managed to get a nice, well constructed, name brand sports coat for $3. It just takes some effort and luck.
should we look down on poor people? because the desperately poor simply cannot afford to spend money on clothes that look good. Looking good in clothes is pretty much reserved for the middle class and above.
Bullshit.
look, the poor in this country are real goddamn poor.
And clothing in this country is really goddamn cheap. So unless you're talking about people wearing burlap sacks cinched with a rope you are objectively wrong.
clothes that fit well and look nice are far more expensive than clothes that do not
a 'cheap' suit, pair of jeans or what not is unattainable for millions
Right: I've read that and brought up the ignorant chimp one in particular. I also pointed out that the other side seemed as full of self-righteous hyperbole as well, and that it'd be better to take it down a notch. In response you paint me as a deluded victim of group-think and an ugly american. Thanks. I appreciate the calm and level headed approach to conversation.
I've no idea who you are! You just started laying in to me and then getting offended! I haven't directed one word at you personally! Are you Will's alt? Robman's? Modern Man's?
should we look down on poor people? because the desperately poor simply cannot afford to spend money on clothes that look good. Looking good in clothes is pretty much reserved for the middle class and above.
Bullshit.
look, the poor in this country are real goddamn poor.
And clothing in this country is really goddamn cheap. So unless you're talking about people wearing burlap sacks cinched with a rope you are objectively wrong.
clothes that fit well and look nice are far more expensive than clothes that do not
Only if you pay retail. And why would anyone, let alone poor people, do that?
a 'cheap' suit, pair of jeans or what not is unattainable for millions
No, actually, it isn't. You can get 'expensive' quality clothing for single digit prices or under $20 at most.
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KetarCome on upstairswe're having a partyRegistered Userregular
Are we just accepting that software development jobs are way outside the norm as far as what's expected of your attire, both at work and in interviews?
No. They are an easy example of changing norms, though.
should we look down on poor people? because the desperately poor simply cannot afford to spend money on clothes that look good. Looking good in clothes is pretty much reserved for the middle class and above.
Apparently you haven't read the last 20 pages where people said it's not those who don't have money, but those who do who choose to ignore custom & politeness, such as the people wearing baseball caps in the fancy restaurant, or the ones who go to an executive level job interview in bermuda shorts because the suit was just too stuffy for a 150k a year job.
If $10 for a collared shirt off ebay is too rich for your blood, you'd better not own any $50 jeans or $120 sneakers.
What I've found odd about this thread is the idea that there is only one culture in operation at one place and one time, and that people who don't get it are 'ignorant chimps' (worth quoting again for its astonishing arrogance).
I'm an old punk, and now I'm a beach-bum. For 8 months of the year, outside work, I wear a T-shirt, cutoff jeans, and sandals. Sometimes a Hawaiian shirt over the T-shirt, as my wife made me some nice ones.
I wear office clothes at work, but I hate them. They're not my culture. They're not something I have ever worn voluntarily. No-one in my family would ever wear clothes like that voluntarily (Irish working-class people). They're not just a neutral dress style, but one I find archaic, snobby and repressive. Jackets and ties are not remotely appropriate for my work (where I often have to crawl around with small children), but we have to wear them because.... they're a signifier of the middle-class? For me they're a signifier of the class system and the general dehumanising influence of corporations. I'm well aware they can help your career, but the reason they can help your career is companies are full of class-bound idiots.
If I go to a cemetary I want there to be as little ceremony as possible because I think that's a good way to think of the places. I don't want to dress up, I want to relax and think of the person who is buried there. I believe, rightly or wrongly, that many cultures have too many death taboos and should be more open about death. So the stiffs in suits put me off.
You like suits? Groovy. That's subjective, though. Your culture is not my culture.
Let's establish the timeline that led up to the chimp comment.
The poster I responded to was on the internet.
The person clicked on a thread about dressing up.
The person complained repeatedly about being ignorant of how this shit works
The person made the conscious decision to complain in an internet thread rather then spending two minutes on Google to find one of the many detailed, helpful guides on the internet on how formal clothing works, various common styles, and how to tell them apart, and how to wear them.
This person did the equivalent of walking into a physics classroom and announcing loudly that he had no idea how gravity works. He then derided the other people in this class for not (presumably) explaining to him how gravity works, and complained that physicists were elitists with their gravity knowledge. He didn't realize "this is a subject I know nothing about" and
a) exit stage fucking left, or
b) read some shit about it
rather, he stood up and loudly and proudly proclaimed his lack of knowledge. In the physics classroom, you'd be told to get the fuck out and stop wasting everyone's time.
Profession has come up a few times here recently, so would some of you mind sharing what it is you do for a living? I'm interested to see if a pattern forms.
I'm a software developer (and for those of you just tuning in, I think dress codes are ridiculous)
--
I think it's interesting that using clothing to "express oneself" is being referred to in a derogatory way. Particularly because the people saying that are the ones who read so much expression in the way people dress.
Are we just accepting that software development jobs are way outside the norm as far as what's expected of your attire, both at work and in interviews?
I personally have put it in the vocal minority file.
I think it's interesting that using clothing to "express oneself" is being referred to in a derogatory way. Particularly because the people saying that are the ones who read so much expression in the way people dress.
Thing is that wearing jeans and a t-shirt to an interview expresses that you don't have any passion for the job or respect for your employer, nine times out of ten.
I think it's interesting that using clothing to "express oneself" is being referred to in a derogatory way. Particularly because the people saying that are the ones who read so much expression in the way people dress.
Thing is that wearing jeans and a t-shirt to an interview expresses that you don't have any passion for the job or respect for your employer, nine times out of ten.
Yes. But at an interview, you are also typically trying to express a level of...I guess we can call it profesionalism, above and beyond what you really have or what the job requires.
There is a PURPOSE behind dressing up for an interview. You are expressing a certain emotive quality, even if the need for that is perhaps a little silly.
Right. Which is okay, if a bit frustrating at times.
Then you get people like Will, who seem to consider the idea almost unholy.
And some people think that pants are unholy. *shrug*
People will spend the amount of effort that they feel other people are worth, and other people will treat them based on how much effort they feel they are worth versus how much they receive. Some people obviously don't think other people are worth much effort, some people think that everyone is worth effort.
I find it funny that the lowest paying jobs I`ve ever had, also have had the most stringent dress codes.
Just an observation.
I can see that. You can't get anymore stringent than "wear this uniform or not work at all".
The law firm I work with is somewhat laid back (actually, day-to-day wear is not much different than what Bill Gates and Co. are wearing above - but you still need to be presentable because you will more likely than not be seen by the public). If we're ever meeting with clients we need to be in a suit because it expresses to them that we are serious people who take their matters seriously - which I think is only reasonable. But this applies more to us junior members rather than partners who (the detractors of dress codes will be happy to hear this) have a sufficient reputation that allows them to dress down in front of clients while still maintaining their confidence.
Of course, in the supreme court there is court dress. That can be a little stuffy (heavy black coats), but it serves it's purposes. For one, it creates equals out of the lawyers appearing before the court, there is the aspect of tradition, and yes, the display of respect for the court. It adds gravitas and is a badge of your status and represents the give and take of rights and obligations - you are entitled to appear before the court and in return you will abide by its customs.
People will spend the amount of effort that they feel other people are worth
Nobody is saying this.
I''m saying this.
Oh so you meant to say
I will spend the amount of effort I feel other people are worth
?
No, he's making a statement about people in general, not necessarily about himself. Feel free to challenge the merits of the generalization, but challenging his right to make it, or insinuating that he is not in fact talking about people in general but about himself in particular is kind of bizarre.
Profession has come up a few times here recently, so would some of you mind sharing what it is you do for a living? I'm interested to see if a pattern forms.
I'm a software developer (and for those of you just tuning in, I think dress codes are ridiculous)
--
I think it's interesting that using clothing to "express oneself" is being referred to in a derogatory way. Particularly because the people saying that are the ones who read so much expression in the way people dress.
I am a systems engineer. I typically wear jeans, polo, and sneakers or khakis, polo, and non-sneaker shoes. If customers are going to be around I will upgrade to dress slacks, button-down, and maybe a tie.
Are we just accepting that software development jobs are way outside the norm as far as what's expected of your attire, both at work and in interviews?
Compared to other professions, yes, I think the IT world in general has a substantially different idea about dress codes.
I've read a few things lately that suggest that workplace dress trends or codes are starting to swing back a bit towards more formal dress codes.
Also, Fluffy, you're partly right, people do dress based on how they want to feel, but also on how they want others to feel about them. Thus the whole principal behind "dress for success" and the idea of dressing not for the position you have, but the one you want to have.
IT folks spend a lot of time splayed on the ground and covered in dirt, so I can't really find a fault in them dressing like plumbers.
If they're the help desk IT people in an office, sure and everyone understands that. There are still some standards, and some people in those roles don't seem to grasp it sometimes, probably because no one has ever taught them about it. Unfortunately, it results in the stereo type in offices that "IT worker = slob"
Posts
Most problems in society seem to me to be outgrowths of Boomer attitudes, but I am probably a little myopic. :P
The concept that self-expression is the highest value and most central human right seems to gel with the refusal to follow basic social standards. I guess this isn't too far off from the primacy of personal convenience. In both cases it's pretty much the fetishization of individuality.
I keep telling you that there isn't one culture, but that doesn't suit your argument so you pretend otherwise. There are a multipilicity of cultures engaged in dialogues with one another, sometimes vying for supremacy. One of the ways that a member of a culture can achieve cultural dominance is to pretend that their culture is the only one. This is what you're doing right now.
You seem unaware of the history of clothing and of culture that has led us to this point. You also conflate being on best behaviour with wearing a suit.
Saying I have a 'chip on my shoulder' is just a rhetorical way of ignoring my point. I honestly don't know how you can not be aware that there are other cultures with other ways of assessing clothes than your own culture. This is basic stuff. I shouldn't have to explain it to any educated adult.
Look, some people are saying, yes, you probably will be judged based on your clothing. If you walk into a job interview for an executive position wearing bermuda shorts, you probably won't get the job.
I know you're offended by this but why argue the point? It's a simple reality. 100k+ jobs--it's going to be an odd job if they hire you if you come in wearing tattered jean shorts.
As for the restaurants I am surprised to see an irish person thinking that dressing up is some elitist thing. I'm sure some feel that way, but do you live in Europe or Britain? Have you been there ever? A lot of people--of all social classes--dress very nicely regardless. I've seen people with a dime in their pocket wearing a suit: granted an old one and a faded one, but still a suit, still trying to dress nicely.
Also, yes, some of us dress nicely to show respect--much like the elderly immigrants that Irond sees walking to church. No one made them. It's a sign of respect, not a way to keep out the poor. Really people. For the "comfort embracing" "non-judgmental" group you've certainly made as many judgments as the person who called you all "ignorant chimps". You are portraying everyone who likes to dress well & does it out of respect as being elitist chumps.
Posh, really, he's said it's not a SUIT that is required, but that it's good to dress appropriate to the culture you are in. When in rome do as the romans do. He's not saying you need to wear a suit on your weekend off, but that you should wear APPROPRIATE clothing for a job interview. I mean really, just drop that bone.
Apparently you haven't read the last 20 pages where people said it's not those who don't have money, but those who do who choose to ignore custom & politeness, such as the people wearing baseball caps in the fancy restaurant, or the ones who go to an executive level job interview in bermuda shorts because the suit was just too stuffy for a 150k a year job.
Of course I've been to Europe. I'm from there. I don't understand what you mean.
I'm not saying that people who dress 'nice' are elitists. I'm trying to say three things:
(1) The nice people who dress 'nice' and don't judge others for their clothes are not snobs at all but do choose the way they dress because they've internalised a class-influenced sense of fashion.
(2) The people who dress 'nice' and do judge others for their clothes are snobs. Plenty of that in this thread.
(3) Taste in fashion is subjective, and there isn't one idea of 'nice'. Suits are not 'nice' to many many people.
Argh I think I have to stop posting here because talking to adults, grown men and women, who believe that there's only one culture in the world, or even in the US, is making me angry.
none of us think there is ONE CULTURE. Please re-read my post where I address your opinion on that. You've clearly mis-read quite a bit, and chosen to focus on one aspect of the conversation. Don't insult me and belittle me because you've failed to understand the point.
To address the meat of your post:
The notion that they are "judging" is because a few people spoke very strongly against the idea of dressing nicely at all: including saying that if people showed up for job interviews in suits, they'd not get the job for being "desperate". I think you're seeing the pendulum swing, and you're just adding to it by sounding equally illogical.
Your basic point of not passing cruel judgments on unknown people is probably almost equally shared here. However, some of the posters are trying to make the point that if you dress incredibly out of proportion for where you are, others will judge you.
Take your job. You've said you dress up nicely for it. Why? If it's just garbage and everyone judging you is crazy, why is it you are so outnumbered that you have to conform? I mean there is some valid reason to judge: let's say you are a woman, and a guy in shabby clothes and a baseball cap asks you out. He's wearing clothes that don't fit with holes in them. Do you have to date him? Or can you not want to date someone dressed that way? Let's say he's wearing bermuda shorts and you just hate bermuda shorts. Do you have to date him?
No--and I personally think it's fine to make decisions that way. You can choose who you associate with. I bet you don't hang out with people in tailored shirts outside of work hours. No one is going to say that's judgmental on your part, it's your thing, and your right. But it works both ways.
Bullshit.
You're not reading the same thread as me, then.
'Ignorant chimp'
'Paranoid Loon'
'Bullshit'
look, the poor in this country are real goddamn poor.
And clothing in this country is really goddamn cheap. So unless you're talking about people wearing burlap sacks cinched with a rope you are objectively wrong. I've managed to get a nice, well constructed, name brand sports coat for $3. It just takes some effort and luck.
clothes that fit well and look nice are far more expensive than clothes that do not
a 'cheap' suit, pair of jeans or what not is unattainable for millions
I've no idea who you are! You just started laying in to me and then getting offended! I haven't directed one word at you personally! Are you Will's alt? Robman's? Modern Man's?
Ugly American? What the hell are you on?
Only if you pay retail. And why would anyone, let alone poor people, do that?
No, actually, it isn't. You can get 'expensive' quality clothing for single digit prices or under $20 at most.
No. They are an easy example of changing norms, though.
If $10 for a collared shirt off ebay is too rich for your blood, you'd better not own any $50 jeans or $120 sneakers.
Let's establish the timeline that led up to the chimp comment.
The poster I responded to was on the internet.
The person clicked on a thread about dressing up.
The person complained repeatedly about being ignorant of how this shit works
The person made the conscious decision to complain in an internet thread rather then spending two minutes on Google to find one of the many detailed, helpful guides on the internet on how formal clothing works, various common styles, and how to tell them apart, and how to wear them.
This person did the equivalent of walking into a physics classroom and announcing loudly that he had no idea how gravity works. He then derided the other people in this class for not (presumably) explaining to him how gravity works, and complained that physicists were elitists with their gravity knowledge. He didn't realize "this is a subject I know nothing about" and
a) exit stage fucking left, or
b) read some shit about it
rather, he stood up and loudly and proudly proclaimed his lack of knowledge. In the physics classroom, you'd be told to get the fuck out and stop wasting everyone's time.
Just an observation.
I'm a software developer (and for those of you just tuning in, I think dress codes are ridiculous)
--
I think it's interesting that using clothing to "express oneself" is being referred to in a derogatory way. Particularly because the people saying that are the ones who read so much expression in the way people dress.
I personally have put it in the vocal minority file.
Thing is that wearing jeans and a t-shirt to an interview expresses that you don't have any passion for the job or respect for your employer, nine times out of ten.
Yes. But at an interview, you are also typically trying to express a level of...I guess we can call it profesionalism, above and beyond what you really have or what the job requires.
There is a PURPOSE behind dressing up for an interview. You are expressing a certain emotive quality, even if the need for that is perhaps a little silly.
And this goes for everything you do.
Clothing is a form of communication, even if all that you communicate is that you don't care about clothing and first impressions and such.
Right. Which is okay, if a bit frustrating at times.
Then you get people like Will, who seem to consider the idea almost unholy.
And some people think that pants are unholy. *shrug*
People will spend the amount of effort that they feel other people are worth, and other people will treat them based on how much effort they feel they are worth versus how much they receive. Some people obviously don't think other people are worth much effort, some people think that everyone is worth effort.
The law firm I work with is somewhat laid back (actually, day-to-day wear is not much different than what Bill Gates and Co. are wearing above - but you still need to be presentable because you will more likely than not be seen by the public). If we're ever meeting with clients we need to be in a suit because it expresses to them that we are serious people who take their matters seriously - which I think is only reasonable. But this applies more to us junior members rather than partners who (the detractors of dress codes will be happy to hear this) have a sufficient reputation that allows them to dress down in front of clients while still maintaining their confidence.
Of course, in the supreme court there is court dress. That can be a little stuffy (heavy black coats), but it serves it's purposes. For one, it creates equals out of the lawyers appearing before the court, there is the aspect of tradition, and yes, the display of respect for the court. It adds gravitas and is a badge of your status and represents the give and take of rights and obligations - you are entitled to appear before the court and in return you will abide by its customs.
Nobody is saying this.
I''m saying this.
Oh so you meant to say
?
No, he's making a statement about people in general, not necessarily about himself. Feel free to challenge the merits of the generalization, but challenging his right to make it, or insinuating that he is not in fact talking about people in general but about himself in particular is kind of bizarre.
This is a second reason for one's attire. Contributing factors and all. Also things like weather.
And it's a reason that helps both sides of this argument pretty much equally...
I am a systems engineer. I typically wear jeans, polo, and sneakers or khakis, polo, and non-sneaker shoes. If customers are going to be around I will upgrade to dress slacks, button-down, and maybe a tie.
Compared to other professions, yes, I think the IT world in general has a substantially different idea about dress codes.
I've read a few things lately that suggest that workplace dress trends or codes are starting to swing back a bit towards more formal dress codes.
Also, Fluffy, you're partly right, people do dress based on how they want to feel, but also on how they want others to feel about them. Thus the whole principal behind "dress for success" and the idea of dressing not for the position you have, but the one you want to have.
If they're the help desk IT people in an office, sure and everyone understands that. There are still some standards, and some people in those roles don't seem to grasp it sometimes, probably because no one has ever taught them about it. Unfortunately, it results in the stereo type in offices that "IT worker = slob"