Welcome! - Information for Artists and Critics Posting in This Forum

beavotron · November 2009

Hello, welcome to the AC.

This subforum is dedicated to posting your own artwork that you've made in the hopes to receive constructive criticism on the works you've done.

The goal of this forum is to continue to build a network of artists and art lovers who help each other achieve their artistic goals and improve their skills.

New threads are to be used only to showcase your own personal artwork that you want advice, criticism, and feedback on. This includes any type of visual or audio art.

While the forum is currently predominantly illustration, other forms of art such as music, animation, and film are welcome to be posted.

If you are unsure if what you want to post would be appropriate, please contact a moderator first and they will gladly help.

What is constructive criticism?

Constructive criticism is a response a person has to your work. Typically, this is advice that they feel would improve the piece, or would help you improve your skills.
It is NOT "hey i think this sucks."
It is also not "hey i think this is great, you're awesome!"
It is advice catered to your skill set and your goals to help you improve.

More examples of criticism that are not at all constructive:

"You are so hopelessly amateur, that nothing I can say to you other than read lots of Loomis books will help."
"Stop drawing anime."

Help us cater to your artistic needs and goals.

Tell us what your goals as an artist are.
Are you a hobbyist looking to learn to draw landscapes for fun?
Are you putting together a portfolio to get into art school?
Are you currently a professional looking to further refine your skills in a certain area?
How long have you been practicing this form of art?
Who are some artists or styles that you admire who you strive to be like in your own work?

How do you respond to criticism?

There are a lot of ways you can respond. Generally, it is polite to show that you appreciate that someone took the time to give you crits on your work.

It is important to know that when a person is critting your work, they are not taking shots at you as a person. They are not even really taking shots at your work. They are trying to help you see things from their point of view, or give you guidance based on their expertise and the mistakes they themselves have made in the past.

You should not feel at any time like you are being personally made fun of, and if you do feel like someone is being offensive to you and not giving constructive feedback on the work you do, use the "Report Post" feature located at the bottom right of each post and the moderators will be notified.

(bombardier, Angel_of_Bacon, DMAC, Grfiter, Mars Elliot, Iruka)

If you want to get the most out of this community, read the crits, and then go back and look at your work to see if you can see it from the point of view of the person who was critting you. If you can see their point, and see that it would improve the piece, then edit it, or keep it in mind for the next piece that you do. Thank the person for being helpful.

It is important to note that you do not have to accept all criticism. It is simply advice. You can choose to take it or not. If a piece of advice does not line up with your goals as an artist, then don't bother with it and thank the person and move on to the next one.

Arguing with the person is not really a good idea. It is their opinion based on their knowledge (or lack thereof). Think of them as simply opinions intended to help you out.

More on giving and receiving critiques:

There are so many different types of artists, styles, and methods. To provide good crits, you have to understand what the artist's goals are.

If they are aiming to be a realist painter, then crit them as such. If they are aiming to be a cartoonist, then crit them as a cartoonist. To crit someone who is trying to be a cartoonist using realist fundamentals doesn't make any sense.

That being said, learning the basic fundamentals of drawing, photography, or whatever your medium is a very good idea and will only help your more stylized work. If you draw a picture of a guy whose eyes are floating around on different levels and who has one arm shorter than the other, you can't just say "well it's my style." Style and a lack of fundamental drawing knowledge are two very different things. You can still understand those basics and apply them to the style you are using. Knowing proper anatomy, form, construction, lighting, color theory, and all of those other basic drawing fundamentals will only help your own work. Do not disregard those because you have chosen a style.

Most good anime artists, or other cartoonists have a strong foundation in basic drawing fundamentals and beyond. It's much easier to stylize the human form if you have a basic understanding of how it works.
Does that mean that you have to understand exactly how every muscle in the body works? No. Would it help you? Yes, it definitely wouldn't hurt you to know that much.

On the flip side, if someone is drawing a cartoony figure whose proportions, though stylized make sense for what it is, saying "the musculature curving on the calves is all wrong and you should have rendered it all perfectly realistically instead of using cel shading" is not a very good crit. You are disregarding what the purpose of the drawing is. They aren't trying to draw the perfect anatomically correct human form. They are doing a stylized drawing. Keeping in mind that there are more methods of drawing than the one you choose is very important.

If you do not have good knowledge of what the person is trying to achieve, then don't give detailed technical crits simply based on what you yourself are trying to achieve in your personal practice.

Which brings me to another point. "You drew a cat, but you should have drawn a dog because cats are stupid." This is a personal preference and NOT a constructive crit.

Erisian Pope gave me some great links to share:
Giving Crits: http://emptyeasel.com/2007/06/18/how-to-give-an-art-critique-constructive-criticism-for-artists/
Taking Crits: http://emptyeasel.com/2007/06/10/how-to-handle-artistic-criticism-learning-from-art-critics-artist-critiques/

Catering your critiques:

If an artist comes in here who is 12 years old and has just started to form an interest in drawing to make it a hobby, you should be critting them differently than a person who is well into their career as an artist.

Developing an interest in making art is an important stage that should not be disregarded. Coming at an artist like this with "you are so hopelessly crappy at drawing" is only going to dishearten them. It is not going to help them at all.

Part of this community is fostering and maintaining a love for making art, so keep that in mind.

If you come in here and tell us you want to be a professional artist then you are going to be treated as such. Typically, crits will be a little more picky, technical, and catered to whatever field of art you're trying to get into.

beavotron · November 2009

What sort of jobs are available for artists?

This depends on what you want to do!

There are tons of different commercial jobs available for artists, in many different fields, from technical draftsmen to artists for the entertainment industry.

Here is a list with links to a description of some popular types of jobs performed by artists in various fields. (Note that this is not a complete list and that there are overlaps in many of these fields. This is just sort of a starting point if you are interested in learning more about various art career paths.)

Entertainment Industry Fields:

Animator
Storyboard Artist
Concept Artist
3D artist

Design Fields:

Graphic Designer
Multimedia Designer
Web Designer
Product Designer
Fashion/Apparel Design
Illustrator

Fine Art:

Fine Artist

Film/Photography Fields:

Cinematographer
Photographer

Do I have to go to school if I want to be a professional artist? If so, what school is best?

Most people hiring for professional art jobs require a strong portfolio and don't really care about what credentials you have.

You can teach yourself using resources available to you such as tutorials, books, and online downloadable content like DVDs about artist's techniques etc. (http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t=105734). If you build up a strong enough portfolio, you can get clients and fulltime jobs without a degree. Artists on this forum have done so.

A lot of people prefer to go to school as it's a bit more focused, a bit easier to access all of the information you need, and the networking of going to a school and having your peers crit you in person is typically a big selling point.

There is no right or wrong school.

Art school is what you make of it. You get out of it what you put in. If you put in extra effort and work hard to improve above and beyond your school tasks, you will excel in whatever school you choose.

There are famous, talented artists who went to big, expensive US schools like Art Center, and RISD, and there are equally famous and talented concept artists who went to tiny community colleges no one has ever heard of. Some have even taught themselves (check out this thread for more info: http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=102315

Look into schools in your area and what they offer. If you're interested in doing animation, apply for schools with animation programs. Look up the faculty and try to find their work (Google is a powerful tool). Look up past students and check out their portfolios. Try emailing some of them to see what sort of input they can give you on the school.

There are lots of people who have big egos about the schools they go to. Everyone wants to feel that the institution they are paying for offers the best education possible. It is important to remember that it's not the school that makes an artist good. Just going to X famous school does not make you an instant talented art god. Your own hard work gets you there. Just having the best professor doesn't automatically transfer all of their talent to you, you still have to work for that. Talent is earned, not bought and handed to you on a piece of paper.

Here's a list of a bunch of art schools:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_art_schools

The consequences of being egotistical.

Egos come with being an artist. It is just a fact. There is no such thing as an artist who doesn't have a bit of an ego. If you didn't feel at all good about your work and about producing artwork, why would you do it? The sense of accomplishment is a great feeling, and you SHOULD feel good about the hard work you do.

However, in communities like this, egos tend to get a little out of control at times. A bunch of artists in a room, each with their own opinion of what is good art and what isn't is always bound to lead to a bit of head butting.

This is a community that is meant to be friendly and helpful. Be proud of yourself, be proud of the work you do, but leave your ego at the door.

If someone crits you and you don't agree with it, don't be an ass about it. If you're going to give crits, take crits. Discussing them is one thing, but if you find a crit unclear, you should discuss it with the artist. Openly bashing a person for their crit because you don't want to accept that you're not perfect is going to create a hostile community.

As much as possible, be open to criticism from people of various skill levels. Whether you choose to use them or not is up to you, but be open to the fact that they're going to happen. If you accept them with courtesy and grace, and maybe try to learn a bit from them and open your mind, this will continue to be a strong community.

If you choose to disregard everyone who gives you advice because you consider yourself better than everyone here, then this is not the community for you.

Finally: people who post rude, off point or otherwise useless comments posed as criticism will be penalized by the mods. If you see posts such as this, use the "Report Post" feature to get the attention of the moderators.

Have Fun!

There are lots of great people around here, Join us in the chat thread (the thread that has the word [CHAT] somewhere in the title, usually near the top of the page)

There is also a doodle thread where you can post your doodles, or works in progress if you don't feel like posting your own new thread (stickied and has the word [Doodle] in the title)

We also do a monthly artist challenge! So make sure to check it out and participate in that, it's a great way to hone your skills (stickied, near the top of the page, will say "AC Challenge" somewhere in the title)

and Lastly, there is a Questions and Discussions thread here: http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t=105734 that has tons of information and resources and is a good place to ask any questions you have about processes, software or any other art making questions.

beavotron · November 2009

Challenging Yourself to Become a Better Artist (by Rahll on Deviantart)

This is simply put one of the most inspiring things I've ever read. It is by an absolutely phenomenal matte painter and concept artist over at deviantart, you can see his work here: http://rahll.deviantart.com check it out, the guy is very inspiring.

Rahll wrote:

Like others here, I get asked a lot of questions about my art, my process, techniques, and my inspiration. One of the questions I get asked that makes me both smile and laugh is, "How did you get so good?" Half the time it's a rhetorical question, and the other half is people genuinely wanting to know how to get better at art.

The answer is deceptively simple: I challenge myself and maintain a positive attitude.

Rise to the Challenge

Now you might say, "Well, everything I do is a challenge, I'm not that good yet." But that's not what I mean. Of course getting better at art is challenging, and even when you're what others might consider a master, art never stops being a challenge.

But what I'm talking about is specifically setting goals for yourself and taking on projects that you KNOW are going to make you struggle. The projects that you KNOW are going to make you want to give up and do something else.

I find that a lot of people sort of stick to a specific niche and never really evolve. Some people are okay with that, and that's cool, but I'm sure many of them would like to get better and move on, but don't really know how, or are afraid of failing.

Failure as a Catalyst to Success

Well, reality check, we are all made of fail. That's how anyone grows. You didn't learn to walk with your first steps did you? No. You fell on your face a few times. You didn't learn to color within the lines your first time using crayons did you? No. You scribbled around the page a lot. The trick to growing is the struggle itself.

Failing is just as important as succeeding, if not more so. Failing shows you what you did wrong so you know how to fix it next time. Failing makes you want to try harder. Without failure, you wouldn't know how to succeed. So don't regard it as some scary or embarrassing thing. Do you think Leonardo da Vinci succeeded with all his paintings or inventions? Absolutely not. The guy was a genius, but he went through all the same processes you have to go through to become a better artist.

As Thomas Edison once said, "Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up."

So, the trick is to challenge yourself. No one gets better without trying things they weren't sure they could do. You struggle through it, but the next time it's easier. And the time after that is even easier, until one day you're breezing through it.

Reference is a Crucial Aid

Before I move on, I want to quickly talk about and encourage that everyone use reference--it doesn't by any means make you a bad artist. I find time and time again that beginning artists feel like using reference is cheating. Well, I'm here to tell you that every professional artist working today uses reference, it's the only way you're going to learn and make things as realistic as possible, even if your work is stylized.

How are you going to understand how the world looks, how color and light behave, and a million other things if you're not observing the real world directly or through reference?

I laugh every time I see a description on someone's work and it says, "No referenced used." Many say in a way that indicates pride or maybe even an inflated ego, but let me tell you a couple things:

Half those people are lying to you, and with the other half it's generally obvious they didn't use reference, and I think to myself, "Yeah, maybe you should have, it could have been much better." Only a very tiny percentage of the people that say that are actually pulling off something remarkable without deceiving you.

Excuses

But in addition to that, there's another reason people may use the line that has nothing to do with deception, ego, or pride, and that's when they use it as an excuse for why something doesn't look as good as they'd like.

In my experience, people who use the line in that way are generally in the minority, I tend to sense it being used in the other fashion far more often.

I guess the point here is to hopefully make clear what I meant to anyone I may have unintentionally offended, and also to encourage anyone who may be using the line as an excuse to use more reference in their work so they don't have to be embarrassed!

Reference doesn't always mean you're copying either, it can simply be a jumping off point to get the right idea, mood, pose, colors, or getting details to look right and putting in things you otherwise wouldn't think of.

Attitude is Powerful

Also crucial to your success as an artist is your attitude. Any professional or master will tell you that same thing. So in addition to challenging yourself, doing things beyond what you're used to and pushing outside of your comfort zone, you need to have a positive attitude about your work.

The more you tell yourself you suck, the higher likelihood you have of it becoming true. How are you supposed to get better if you've convinced yourself you're the worst artist in the world?

Looks like We're Making Progress!

A very simple and effective way of maintaining a positive attitude is simply pushing for progress. With each drawing or painting you do, do your absolute best to make it better than your previous one. If you can genuinely tell yourself, "Yes, this is better than the one before it," then that in itself is a real confidence booster.

As long as you can keep making progress, and look back and see a notable difference in the quality of your work over time, you're on the right track. If it's not happening as fast as you might like, then you simply need to put more time and effort into it.

Observe Other Art

Another way of maintaining a positive attitude is to look at other art. A problem I find in beginning artists is that they get themselves down by looking at all this fantastic work out there, thinking they'll never achieve that. But that's the wrong way to look at it. You need to see it as a milestone or a goal, not an impossible feat.

In addition to that, another way to feel better about your work, and as harsh as this might sound, is to look at work that isn't as good as yours. If you're serious about being an artist, and have been working hard at it, then you're already more than likely better than most other people in the world and definitely better than you think you are.

This isn't an ego thing, it's just the natural order becoming better and maintaining a good attitude toward your work. It's the same as being in an art class. You might feel 'meh' about your life drawing of the model sitting there and be of the attitude that you're doing a terrible job. But once you get up and walk around and see that half the class is in the same boat as you, or maybe even not as good as the 'crap' you feel you're producing, then you'll automatically feel better about your own work. Believe it or not, those other people in the class might actually be looking up to the work you're doing.

The idea behind this is to realize that you're not as bad as you think, or even close. Everyone is overly critical of their own work, and it can easily get you down, but it's also this same mechanic that will drive you to push yourself further each time.

Know You Can Do It!

Continuing on with the attitude idea, I also see a lot of budding artists telling themselves, "I hope I work for that company one day,' or, "I hope I can do this professionally at some point." Hope is good, don't lose that. But take that one step further. Don't just hope you'll be doing it one day, make it a goal for yourself. If you want to work in the game industry, keep telling yourself that you will one day, not that you hope you will. You'll be surprised at how much further thinking like that can get you.

At the end of the day, you're only as good as you allow yourself to be. If you're lazy, or down on your work, if you refuse to rise to a challenge or do something you haven't done before, if you don't at least try to stay upbeat and positive, then you're not doing your job as an artist. Becoming a great artist is going to be an even bigger uphill struggle than it has to be if you don't fix that and you'll always disappoint yourself.

Work hard, put your heart into it, and stay positive. It's a mixture for success, and you'll feel better not only about your work, but yourself. Then one day you could be the person passing on advice that sets others on the right path.

In any case, I hope this has been at the very least helpful or opened up your mind to all the things you can achieve if you're willing to work for them. Good luck and take care!

Buckwolfe · November 2009

I can only assume that this is tantamount to a "Please read before posting" sticky, that has yet to be stickied.

Good initiative, Beavs. But if I have to say anything its this...

beavotron wrote: »

While the forum is predominantly illustration, other forms of art such as music, animation, and film may be posted, but do not expect the same level of expertise and feedback as other threads.

That might merit some tweaking.
It sounds mildly alienating, and a tad disrespectful to our fellow, active members who do excel at non-illustrative artwork. It makes it sound like its a sub-culture of sorts around here. I'll grant you that the number of members around here with experience and expertise in those areas are few in number, but they are in no way limited in terms of information, skill, and feedback than anyone in illustration.

A little careful rewording goes a hell of a long way in inspiring lurkers, and fledgling artists in those genres/fields to opening themselves up to our community.

EDIT: Shit. I forgot to mention my overall approval of this thread (as if that merits anything substantial). I think this'll be immensely helpful for newcomers in the future. Kudos, Beavs, for taking the time, and initiative.

Buckwolfe · November 2009

Obviously.

I was just saying that some general tweaking here or there with the wording could potentially make or break a new member in community.
You have to admit that a lot of people, fledgling artists in particular, tend to be soft, and sensitive. I just think we need to welcome them and their art with unbiased, open arms, WHILE enforcing the boards rules at the same time. It might seem like a minor detail, and maybe it is, but I think its worth looking at is all I'm saying. Its hard to find anyone seeking out help, guidance, and support who already has a thick skin. Those types are usually arrogant, and don't tend to mesh well here.

Angel_of_Bacon · November 2009

Psst, you forgot about Mars in your list of mods.

bombardier · November 2009

This thread is completely open to feedback and discussion of what is posted in the op. Also, white noise posts and anything that has nothing to do with the discussion of the content in the OP will be deleted.

Buckwolfe wrote: »

Obviously.

I was just saying that some general tweaking here or there with the wording could potentially make or break a new member in community.
You have to admit that a lot of people, fledgling artists in particular, tend to be soft, and sensitive. I just think we need to welcome them and their art with unbiased, open arms, WHILE enforcing the boards rules at the same time. It might seem like a minor detail, and maybe it is, but I think its worth looking at is all I'm saying. Its hard to find anyone seeking out help, guidance, and support who already has a thick skin. Those types are usually arrogant, and don't tend to mesh well here.

I changed that line, you're right. It was more a reaction to people posting stuff not the norm and getting irritated that there is a lack of feedback. You get what you get, basically.

Buckwolfe · November 2009

That's just the kind of quick, helpful feedback and response newcomers can expect from the PA:AC!

*nudge nudge, grin grin, wink wink*:o

Iruka · November 2009

This is awesome! You should probably link to the Questions/Discussion thread to help clarify that new threads aren't for minor questions. Maybe even clarify the difference between the chat thread and the questions thread for newbs.

I don't have too much to add other than that, looks pretty damn solid.

Orikaeshigitae · November 2009

This is a really solid sticky. I may start a thread here again.

Tam · November 2009

A few examples of the major genres might help the confused amateur better describe or find his goals.

beavotron · November 2009

Tam wrote: »

A few examples of the major genres might help the confused amateur better describe his goals.

oh like styles you mean?
realism/anime/comicking, that sort of thing?

iruka: good idea, i'll edit in somewhere to join in the chat thread, that'll get more artists joining in on our general discussion and actually making friends/connections with us all.

Tam · November 2009

beavotron wrote: »

Tam wrote: »

A few examples of the major genres might help the confused amateur better describe his goals.

oh like styles you mean?
realism/anime/comicking, that sort of thing?

yep

Iruka · November 2009

Sweet. I guess while defining threads, you may as well talk about the difference between the doodle thread an normal threads. I could see it being kinda confusing with the amount of finished/time intensive non-doodles that get posted in there.

beavotron · November 2009

added iruka's changes

tam: i'm gonna talk to bombs about the addition of styles and stuff, that's sort of a tricky one to put to words, there are so many styles within the genres, i tend to think style just sort of happens naturally, and is a combination of all sorts of influences on an artist, but i can also see some benefit to posting examples to like...major genres too

Tam · November 2009

Well

You might have a bunch of unlabeled images and have them pick a few to show the general direction they'd like to go

maybe it is too ponderous- never mind

beavotron · November 2009

Tam wrote: »

Well

You might have a bunch of unlabeled images and have them pick a few to show the general direction they'd like to go

maybe it is too ponderous- never mind

it's also very limiting considering the sheer number of artistic genres
we're trying to involve all visual arts as well as audio in this

i feel like if an artist just shows us a sample of what they like, we can get enough out of that to help them out.
some artists will be able to show us with no problems what they like without really consciously knowing what genre it is.

Agentflit · November 2009

Wow, this is the best "forum rules" post I have ever seen.

You might want to add something about the [NSFW] tag.

ChurchesWife · November 2009

Why does it seem that "art" as it pertains to this forum is all drawing/painting/digital?

No musicians on PA? I was going to put up a few covers I recorded (because sadly, I'm a singer... and as such, only kind of an artist), but it seems like this just isn't the place?

Am I wrong? So little of it that I haven't seen?

Or is this simply not the place?

DMAC · November 2009

We do get musicians from time to time and this is as close to "the place for it" as you're likely to find on the forums. The only problem is that because so many of us are visual artists and so few of us are musicians, you're not likely to get much in the way of useful feedback.

I'm still waiting for someone to start an interpretive dance thread...

srsizzy · November 2009

I might be completely wrong, but I have a feeling that there's less of an online community for musicians anywhere because it's difficult to "critique" music. It becomes a lot more subjective at a certain point, since many bands aren't really concerned with being good technical musicians, and the people interested in technique generally go to school and get critiqued by instructors or in tutoring.

Basically, successful modern musicians don't rely on skill to be popular as much as they do on originality and creativity. That's why you're probably not going to get many comments if you post music on here, even from fellow musicians. I don't feel like I've seen any common platform on which people discuss modern songs in a technical sense (a lot of bands make pretty basic music when it comes to technique), though I'm sure it happens in recording studios and band rooms. Does that make sense?

beavotron · November 2009

Erisian pope gave me some awesome links about taking and giving crits, I posted them in the OP
thanks EP!

beavotron · November 2009

added a truckload of inspiration, courtesy of http://rahll.deviantart.com

Scosglen · November 2009

I think something the QA thread or some other sticky has been lacking for a long time is some kind of go-to "So you want to learn how to draw" post that outlines the general idea of building a solid set of foundational skills as a springboard to moving on to more ambitious work.

Basically I think there needs to be a post that we can refer total beginners to instead of telling them to go pick up Drawing on the Left Side of the Brain, since I've written that post enough times in my life, and I'm sure many others have.

I don't know if it would seem too dismissive though to just link somebody to a post instead of writing the exact same information out to them and individualizing it.

Rankenphile · November 2009

this has been so painfully overdue

nice work

CheerfulBear · November 2009

A link to the inspiration thread would be pretty cool and useful, I imagine.

Edit: Wait, it doesn't seem to exist anymore. Maybe that should be resurrected.

beavotron · November 2009

i am going to reorganize the q/d thread soonish scos, make it juicy
so if you have suggestions for it, post in there and i will add.

bombardier · November 2009

Everybody worship your new overlord and diety:

beavotron · November 2009

first order of business: the bannening.

Tam · November 2009

All hail Beavotron: Bringer of Order

Striker-Downer of Not-Order

DMAC · November 2009

bombardier wrote: »

Everybody worship your new overlord and diety:

http://www.yodajeff.com/multimedia/sounds/episode5/afraid.wav

NightDragon · November 2009

guys are you sure beavotron is qualified to be a moderator

i mean

has she ever even posted her work

I bet all she draws is furry stuff.

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE

rts · November 2009

This is an interesting development. I fully anticipate my first infraction in the very near future.

beavotron · November 2009

I am infracting cake for assuming I would infract him

Tam · November 2009

infractotron

RubberAC · November 2009

this is awesome

Tam · November 2009

Man, following these new regulations is going to be difficult. I can't just tell beavotron she's awesome any more. She might infract me.

RubberAC · November 2009

we need more glowing praise
more adjectives or infracted

NightDragon · November 2009

the end is nigh

Tam · November 2009

inertia is a property of matter

beavotron · November 2009

Being nice to people isn't going to earn you an infraction. If other people have offered up constructive crits and I feel someone deserves praise, I dish it out. I will probably rarely use the infractions. Only assholes who treat people badly will get those.
Shit I'll have to infract myself way too much if telling people I like their stuff gets me infracted

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