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Posts

  • DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Speaking of the mage origin, does anyone else think it could have been done better?
    First of all, helping Jowan. I wanted to tell him to fuck off. But you have to help him or tell the headmaster about it. Neither one is really in character for any of the characters I've made.

    Secondly, you feel really bad about pretending to help him to turn him in. This is good. But then? He was a bad guy all along, lol! Now you don't need to feel bad about being an asshole snitch. Seems like a huge copout.

    DisruptorX2 on
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  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited December 2009
    What's your argument against Forcible Disarmament (ie, genocide)? If a free walking nuclear weapon is bad enough to chase down and kill, how is an imprisoned walking nuclear weapon any better? It's still a walking nuclear weapon

    I edited my post to clarify who my response was aimed at.

    Tube on
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  • A duck!A duck! Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited December 2009
    Speaking of the mage origin, does anyone else think it could have been done better?
    First of all, helping Jowan. I wanted to tell him to fuck off. But you have to help him or tell the headmaster about it. Neither one is really in character for any of the characters I've made.

    Secondly, you feel really bad about pretending to help him to turn him in. This is good. But then? He was a bad guy all along, lol! Now you don't need to feel bad about being an asshole snitch.
    I still felt bad, because I played my mage as a "Fuck the Circle, fuck the Templars" type. Having Morrigan in your party when you finish the Tower after killing all the mages is pretty satisfying.

    A duck! on
  • PancakePancake Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Bethryn wrote: »
    Behemoth wrote: »
    It's a boarding school that you can't leave.
    Unless you're a Senior Enchanter (and possibly the ones who've passed their Harrowing too). It's only pre-Harrowing mages who aren't allowed out.

    I can't cite you anything but I got the impression that the movement of all mages is restricted to some degree.

    Yes, but it's not as if you have to spend your entire life in the tower. Only apprentices are that restricted.

    Mages are still allowed to leave if they have a reason and pursue personal interests as long as it's nothing that would break Chantry law.

    Pancake on
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  • zerg rushzerg rush Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    jdarksun wrote: »
    It's a serious question. If they're dangerous enough to strip all liberty from, how are they not so dangerous that they're allowed to live?

    You can actually make a much more convincing case that the templars don't go far enough than that they go too far. Personally I'd say you need to find a balance of mercy and prudence. A life in a gilded cage is better than no life at all, and mages have great potential to be good.

    As someone who played a mage I thought the Templars were huge arseholes, but when you look at it objectively it's hard to not see their point.

    That's not it. The Templar are exacerbating the problem by creating life difficult for the mages.


    Do you think we could eradicate homosexuality by sending out squads to kill or imprison gays? All it would do is cause them to hide who they are. Why on earth would squads be able to capture any more than a small fraction of mages?

    zerg rush on
  • BehemothBehemoth Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    zerg rush wrote: »
    Look, mage control isn't about trying to let them enslave people willy nilly. It's about if internment camps and Templar death squads are the most effective and humane methods to do so.


    You don't get to choose if you become a mage. You're born one, and you don't even know if you're a mage for certain until you grow older. When the templar death squad comes knocking on your door, you damn well know you wouldn't tell them that your kid accidentally set the cat on fire with his mind.

    But tomorrow you might break your leg and your kid makes a pact with a demon to fix it.

    Wouldn't you rather have a squad of people trained in these types of situations around to handle it?

    Behemoth on
    iQbUbQsZXyt8I.png
  • chrono_travellerchrono_traveller Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    What's your alternative for dealing with the walking nuclear weapons then?

    I've already told you my method.

    I don't understand the difference people draw between this world's mages and say the mutant registration of the comic book world. (Someone earlier said that they weren't pro-registration, but supported the chantry's mage solution). Superhumans have the abilities that mages have in DA. A superhuman can cause the same order of magnitude of destruction as mages.

    chrono_traveller on
    The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett

    George R. R. Martin is not your bitch. ~ Neil Gaiman
  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited December 2009
    Speaking of the mage origin, does anyone else think it could have been done better?
    First of all, helping Jowan. I wanted to tell him to fuck off. But you have to help him or tell the headmaster about it. Neither one is really in character for any of the characters I've made.

    Secondly, you feel really bad about pretending to help him to turn him in. This is good. But then? He was a bad guy all along, lol! Now you don't need to feel bad about being an asshole snitch.
    No, because I'm an adult and as such like to think of myself as beyond the "snitches get stitches" mindset so beloved of 15 years olds. It's a good story with a certain degree of complexity. It's hard to pin Jowan down as a "bad guy", despite some of the things he does. He was motivated largely by fear of the undoubtedly horrible things that were in his future if he didn't leave. I would like to have been able to look into the evidence supporting his guilt, but the PC at that point is barely more than a student and it is after all just the introduction to the game.

    Tube on
    Hobnail wrote: »
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  • RanadielRanadiel Registered User
    edited December 2009
    Behemoth wrote: »
    I guess it depends on how bad you think the Circle Tower is.

    It's not a horrible prison with tiny cells and no daylight, where mages are tortured to death for the sin of being born. It's a boarding school that you can't leave. Unless you pass the Harrowing and have business elsewhere, like fighting the Blight or what-have-you.

    You're really simplyfing the situation and leaving out a lot of things. Mages....

    * Cannot get married

    * Cannot keep their own children

    * Cannot return to their families even after training

    * Cannot leave the Tower unless under specific situations and must always return, less they are hunted down.

    * Are under constant watch and supervision, under penaltry of death or magic-lobotomy, 24 hours a day, for their entire lives. That ALONE could drive people insane.

    * Will often have magic-lobotomy forced on them.

    * Have blood taken from them and sent to the church in Denerim, so their movements can be tracked should they ever decide to leave the Circle without permission, in which they are hunted down and killed.

    Seriously, the Dragon Age world makes being a mage a fucked life. You are much more likely to die a totally justified death under the rules of the Chantry for not following their rules than you are by getting possessed by a demon.

    Ranadiel on
  • BlurblBlurbl -_- Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    One thing I was supprised about was the chattiness of the Templar NPCs in a Magi origin.

    The Tower may be a prison, but it didn't really seem that bad.

    Blurbl on
  • BethrynBethryn Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    I can't cite you anything but I got the impression that the movement of all mages is restricted to some degree.
    Wynne has Plot Armour from this of course, but certainly they were fine sending mages and Templars over to Ostagar, First Enchanter Whoever was just chilling in Honnleath, the mages and apprentices(!) sent to augment your army don't have Templars with them, and there's a really quite large number of (possibly apostate) enemy mages you meet.

    Bethryn on
  • ArdeArde Registered User
    edited December 2009
    zerg rush wrote: »
    jdarksun wrote: »
    It's a serious question. If they're dangerous enough to strip all liberty from, how are they not so dangerous that they're allowed to live?

    You can actually make a much more convincing case that the templars don't go far enough than that they go too far. Personally I'd say you need to find a balance of mercy and prudence. A life in a gilded cage is better than no life at all, and mages have great potential to be good.

    As someone who played a mage I thought the Templars were huge arseholes, but when you look at it objectively it's hard to not see their point.

    That's not it. The Templar are exacerbating the problem by creating life difficult for the mages.


    Do you think we could eradicate homosexuality by sending out squads to kill or imprison gays? All it would do is cause them to hide who they are. Why on earth would squads be able to capture any more than a small fraction of mages?

    Unless a gay person can actually cause massive destruction/genocide just by himself/herself, then no, your argument is really stupid and piss-poor.

    Arde on
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  • A duck!A duck! Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited December 2009
    What's your alternative for dealing with the walking nuclear weapons then?

    I've already told you my method.

    I don't understand the difference people draw between this world's mages and say the mutant registration of the comic book world. (Someone earlier said that they weren't pro-registration, but supported the chantry's mage solution). Superhumans have the abilities that mages have in DA. A superhuman can cause the same order of magnitude of destruction as mages.

    Partially because mutants can't be FORCIBLY OVERTAKEN BY DEMONS. Well, maybe in some of the comics.

    A duck! on
  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited December 2009
    I've already told you my method.

    I missed it.
    I don't understand the difference people draw between this world's mages and say the mutant registration of the comic book world.

    If the situation were moved into the real world, the anti-registration camp would consist solely of the mentally retarded.

    Tube on
    Hobnail wrote: »
    This forum has taken everything from me
  • chrono_travellerchrono_traveller Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Bethryn wrote: »
    Behemoth wrote: »
    It's a boarding school that you can't leave.
    Unless you're a Senior Enchanter (and possibly the ones who've passed their Harrowing too). It's only pre-Harrowing mages who aren't allowed out.

    I can't cite you anything but I got the impression that the movement of all mages is restricted to some degree.

    They are. It was mentioned a couple pages ago, but mages can only leave the tower with permission from the Templars and only for "official business".

    chrono_traveller on
    The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett

    George R. R. Martin is not your bitch. ~ Neil Gaiman
  • DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    You act is if locking people up for conditions they can't control is something that we don't do in modern times.

    DisruptorX2 on
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  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited December 2009
    zerg rush wrote: »
    Do you think we could eradicate homosexuality by sending out squads to kill or imprison gays? All it would do is cause them to hide who they are. Why on earth would squads be able to capture any more than a small fraction of mages?

    This is an unbelievably facile argument that doesn't merit a considered response.

    Tube on
    Hobnail wrote: »
    This forum has taken everything from me
  • zerg rushzerg rush Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Arde wrote: »
    zerg rush wrote: »
    jdarksun wrote: »
    It's a serious question. If they're dangerous enough to strip all liberty from, how are they not so dangerous that they're allowed to live?

    You can actually make a much more convincing case that the templars don't go far enough than that they go too far. Personally I'd say you need to find a balance of mercy and prudence. A life in a gilded cage is better than no life at all, and mages have great potential to be good.

    As someone who played a mage I thought the Templars were huge arseholes, but when you look at it objectively it's hard to not see their point.

    That's not it. The Templar are exacerbating the problem by creating life difficult for the mages.


    Do you think we could eradicate homosexuality by sending out squads to kill or imprison gays? All it would do is cause them to hide who they are. Why on earth would squads be able to capture any more than a small fraction of mages?

    Unless a gay person can actually cause massive destruction/genocide just by himself/herself, then no, your argument is really stupid and piss-poor.

    Mages are born at random in the population. A person doesn't even know they're a mage until late childhood/early puberty. Being born a mage isn't a choice.

    It isn't about them being able to blow up things with their mind. It's about how, if you try to suppress them under the threat of murder (example: Iran), the only thing it achieves is making them hide better.

    zerg rush on
  • RanadielRanadiel Registered User
    edited December 2009
    Pancake wrote:
    Yes, but it's not as if you have to spend your entire life in the tower. Only apprentices are that restricted.

    Mages are still allowed to leave if they have a reason and pursue personal interests as long as it's nothing that would break Chantry law.

    Where is this stated, exactly? Because every in-game source I've found so far is that Mages aren't allowed to move without being on official business, being approved by the First enchanter and the Knight Commander of the Templars. Just going, 'Hey gais I want to see my family today it's ma birfday.' Would likely net you a, 'No, fuck off, get back to the library.'

    Ranadiel on
  • zerg rushzerg rush Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    zerg rush wrote: »
    Do you think we could eradicate homosexuality by sending out squads to kill or imprison gays? All it would do is cause them to hide who they are. Why on earth would squads be able to capture any more than a small fraction of mages?

    This is an unbelievably facile argument that doesn't merit a considered response.

    I'm not trying to argue the human right for mages.

    My argument is purely this: Draconic measure for capturing a specific part of the population only make it more difficult to capture that population.

    People who can make other people explode are bad and need to be controlled. You can't achieve that with death squads.

    zerg rush on
  • hatedinamericahatedinamerica Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Arde wrote: »
    zerg rush wrote: »
    jdarksun wrote: »
    It's a serious question. If they're dangerous enough to strip all liberty from, how are they not so dangerous that they're allowed to live?

    You can actually make a much more convincing case that the templars don't go far enough than that they go too far. Personally I'd say you need to find a balance of mercy and prudence. A life in a gilded cage is better than no life at all, and mages have great potential to be good.

    As someone who played a mage I thought the Templars were huge arseholes, but when you look at it objectively it's hard to not see their point.

    That's not it. The Templar are exacerbating the problem by creating life difficult for the mages.


    Do you think we could eradicate homosexuality by sending out squads to kill or imprison gays? All it would do is cause them to hide who they are. Why on earth would squads be able to capture any more than a small fraction of mages?

    Unless a gay person can actually cause massive destruction/genocide just by himself/herself, then no, your argument is really stupid and piss-poor.


    Actually, there is nothing wrong with his or her argument.

    Replace "gay" with pretty much anything you want and it still holds true just the same. If you ostrecize, capture, or kill people for something they can't necessarily control then they are probably going to try to hide so as to avoid the afformentioned bad things.

    That's just the desire to continue being alive on your own terms, which is fairly universal, I think (unless you are a Qunari).

    hatedinamerica on
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  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited December 2009
    If you play a game and then are able to spend pages debating with someone on the actions of a faction within that game you probably just played a pretty sweet game.

    Tube on
    Hobnail wrote: »
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  • EtiowsaEtiowsa Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    SO, did anyone know rogues could disarm glyphs of paralysis? Cause I sure didn't. I really can't begin to wrap my head around that one.

    Etiowsa on
  • ArdeArde Registered User
    edited December 2009
    zerg rush wrote: »
    zerg rush wrote: »
    Do you think we could eradicate homosexuality by sending out squads to kill or imprison gays? All it would do is cause them to hide who they are. Why on earth would squads be able to capture any more than a small fraction of mages?

    This is an unbelievably facile argument that doesn't merit a considered response.

    I'm not trying to argue the human right for mages.

    My argument is purely this: Draconic measure for capturing a specific part of the population only make it more difficult to capture that population.

    People who can make other people explode are bad and need to be controlled. You can't achieve that with death squads.

    Why are you saying templars are death squads? They're not - if they are, there will be exactly 0 people captured by the templars and sent to the circle tower.

    Arde on
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  • BehemothBehemoth Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    zerg rush wrote: »
    Arde wrote: »
    zerg rush wrote: »
    jdarksun wrote: »
    It's a serious question. If they're dangerous enough to strip all liberty from, how are they not so dangerous that they're allowed to live?

    You can actually make a much more convincing case that the templars don't go far enough than that they go too far. Personally I'd say you need to find a balance of mercy and prudence. A life in a gilded cage is better than no life at all, and mages have great potential to be good.

    As someone who played a mage I thought the Templars were huge arseholes, but when you look at it objectively it's hard to not see their point.

    That's not it. The Templar are exacerbating the problem by creating life difficult for the mages.


    Do you think we could eradicate homosexuality by sending out squads to kill or imprison gays? All it would do is cause them to hide who they are. Why on earth would squads be able to capture any more than a small fraction of mages?

    Unless a gay person can actually cause massive destruction/genocide just by himself/herself, then no, your argument is really stupid and piss-poor.

    Mages are born at random in the population. A person doesn't even know they're a mage until late childhood/early puberty. Being born a mage isn't a choice.

    It isn't about them being able to blow up things with their mind. It's about how, if you try to suppress them under the threat of murder (example: Iran), the only thing it achieves is making them hide better.

    Actually, it is about being able to blow things up from your mind. That's pretty different from being attracted to the same sex, in my mind at least.

    And that's not the only thing it achieves, it effectively prevents the situation present in the Tevinter Imperium: Mages are kings, everyone else is a walking battery.

    Behemoth on
    iQbUbQsZXyt8I.png
  • PancakePancake Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Ranadiel wrote: »
    Pancake wrote:
    Yes, but it's not as if you have to spend your entire life in the tower. Only apprentices are that restricted.

    Mages are still allowed to leave if they have a reason and pursue personal interests as long as it's nothing that would break Chantry law.

    Where is this stated, exactly? Because every in-game source I've found so far is that Mages aren't allowed to move without being on official business, being approved by the First enchanter and the Knight Commander of the Templars. Just going, 'Hey gais I want to see my family today it's ma birfday.' Would likely net you a, 'No, fuck off, get back to the library.'

    A reason would possibly imply it's not something trivial or something you're not supposed to be doing, no? Regardless, mages are allowed to pursue personal interests and work on their own thing if they like. They aren't controlled completely and utterly.

    And sometimes the Circle is willing to break the rules, like in the case of Wilhelm. And even outside of that, there are mages that live outside of the towers, many serving as advisers.

    Pancake on
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  • BehemothBehemoth Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Etiowsa wrote: »
    SO, did anyone know rogues could disarm glyphs of paralysis? Cause I sure didn't. I really can't begin to wrap my head around that one.

    Yeah, I noticed that recently.

    I guess if you're dexterous enough you can disarm the laws of reality.

    Behemoth on
    iQbUbQsZXyt8I.png
  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Behemoth wrote: »
    zerg rush wrote: »
    Look, mage control isn't about trying to let them enslave people willy nilly. It's about if internment camps and Templar death squads are the most effective and humane methods to do so.


    You don't get to choose if you become a mage. You're born one, and you don't even know if you're a mage for certain until you grow older. When the templar death squad comes knocking on your door, you damn well know you wouldn't tell them that your kid accidentally set the cat on fire with his mind.

    But tomorrow you might break your leg and your kid makes a pact with a demon to fix it.

    Wouldn't you rather have a squad of people trained in these types of situations around to handle it?

    A better example is what if your next door neighbor gets swine flu and his kid makes a pact with a demon to save him then gets possessed. And your kid likes to play with his kid.

    Shame we wouldn't have anyone capable of handling that though :(

    Mild Confusion on
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  • DozingDragonDozingDragon Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Etiowsa wrote: »
    SO, did anyone know rogues could disarm glyphs of paralysis? Cause I sure didn't. I really can't begin to wrap my head around that one.

    Eh, I can imagine it being possible through the application of lyrium powder.

    DozingDragon on
  • ArdeArde Registered User
    edited December 2009
    Arde wrote: »
    zerg rush wrote: »
    jdarksun wrote: »
    It's a serious question. If they're dangerous enough to strip all liberty from, how are they not so dangerous that they're allowed to live?

    You can actually make a much more convincing case that the templars don't go far enough than that they go too far. Personally I'd say you need to find a balance of mercy and prudence. A life in a gilded cage is better than no life at all, and mages have great potential to be good.

    As someone who played a mage I thought the Templars were huge arseholes, but when you look at it objectively it's hard to not see their point.

    That's not it. The Templar are exacerbating the problem by creating life difficult for the mages.


    Do you think we could eradicate homosexuality by sending out squads to kill or imprison gays? All it would do is cause them to hide who they are. Why on earth would squads be able to capture any more than a small fraction of mages?

    Unless a gay person can actually cause massive destruction/genocide just by himself/herself, then no, your argument is really stupid and piss-poor.


    Actually, there is nothing wrong with his or her argument.

    Replace "gay" with pretty much anything you want and it still holds true just the same. If you ostrecize, capture, or kill people for something they can't necessarily control then they are probably going to try to hide so as to avoid the afformentioned bad things.

    That's just the desire to continue being alive on your own terms, which is fairly universal, I think (unless you are a Qunari).

    Some people really like to bring in a stupid strawman into any argument, don't they?

    Y'know what, fuck you guys - guess what, they don't care to restrain/subdue/discriminate gay relationships in Dragon Age universe, so fuck you assholes who always want to mess up a good discussion with something completely unrelated.

    Arde on
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  • zerg rushzerg rush Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Behemoth wrote: »
    zerg rush wrote: »
    Arde wrote: »
    zerg rush wrote: »
    jdarksun wrote: »
    It's a serious question. If they're dangerous enough to strip all liberty from, how are they not so dangerous that they're allowed to live?

    You can actually make a much more convincing case that the templars don't go far enough than that they go too far. Personally I'd say you need to find a balance of mercy and prudence. A life in a gilded cage is better than no life at all, and mages have great potential to be good.

    As someone who played a mage I thought the Templars were huge arseholes, but when you look at it objectively it's hard to not see their point.

    That's not it. The Templar are exacerbating the problem by creating life difficult for the mages.


    Do you think we could eradicate homosexuality by sending out squads to kill or imprison gays? All it would do is cause them to hide who they are. Why on earth would squads be able to capture any more than a small fraction of mages?

    Unless a gay person can actually cause massive destruction/genocide just by himself/herself, then no, your argument is really stupid and piss-poor.

    Mages are born at random in the population. A person doesn't even know they're a mage until late childhood/early puberty. Being born a mage isn't a choice.

    It isn't about them being able to blow up things with their mind. It's about how, if you try to suppress them under the threat of murder (example: Iran), the only thing it achieves is making them hide better.

    Actually, it is about being able to blow things up from your mind. That's pretty different from being attracted to the same sex, in my mind at least.

    And that's not the only thing it achieves, it effectively prevents the situation present in the Tevinter Imperium: Mages are kings, everyone else is a walking battery.

    How are you going to capture them though?

    The Arl didn't see his own son as a mage. The Templar in his employ couldn't magic-sense him. The only way anyone knew he was a mage was his own mother. If your goal is to have all mages be trained to not blow up into demons, you need to have an atmosphere where people aren't afraid to acknowledge that they are mages.

    zerg rush on
  • QuirkyLittleTyrantQuirkyLittleTyrant A Mug Featuring Pichu On A Cloud Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Aren't there Fraternities of Magi or something? From what I remember in the Codex, they sounded pretty active in things outside the Circle.

    QuirkyLittleTyrant on
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  • A duck!A duck! Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited December 2009
    Behemoth wrote: »
    And that's not the only thing it achieves, it effectively prevents the situation present in the Tevinter Imperium: Mages are kings, everyone else is a walking battery.

    This is the other point that's lost. When people start to defend blood mages or mages in general, they have to take into account that in the game the Chantry spreads a lot of propaganda about the Imperium to keep control. It would be interesting in the second game to see how much of that is true and how much is distortion.

    A duck! on
  • hatedinamericahatedinamerica Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Arde wrote: »
    Arde wrote: »
    zerg rush wrote: »
    jdarksun wrote: »
    It's a serious question. If they're dangerous enough to strip all liberty from, how are they not so dangerous that they're allowed to live?

    You can actually make a much more convincing case that the templars don't go far enough than that they go too far. Personally I'd say you need to find a balance of mercy and prudence. A life in a gilded cage is better than no life at all, and mages have great potential to be good.

    As someone who played a mage I thought the Templars were huge arseholes, but when you look at it objectively it's hard to not see their point.

    That's not it. The Templar are exacerbating the problem by creating life difficult for the mages.


    Do you think we could eradicate homosexuality by sending out squads to kill or imprison gays? All it would do is cause them to hide who they are. Why on earth would squads be able to capture any more than a small fraction of mages?

    Unless a gay person can actually cause massive destruction/genocide just by himself/herself, then no, your argument is really stupid and piss-poor.


    Actually, there is nothing wrong with his or her argument.

    Replace "gay" with pretty much anything you want and it still holds true just the same. If you ostrecize, capture, or kill people for something they can't necessarily control then they are probably going to try to hide so as to avoid the afformentioned bad things.

    That's just the desire to continue being alive on your own terms, which is fairly universal, I think (unless you are a Qunari).

    Some people really like to bring in a stupid strawman into any argument, don't they?

    Y'know what, fuck you guys - guess what, they don't care to restrain/subdue/discriminate gay relationships in Dragon Age universe, so fuck you assholes who always want to mess up a good discussion with something completely unrelated.


    Are you being sarcastic?

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  • ArdeArde Registered User
    edited December 2009
    Hey, you're the one who suddenly brought up more stupid strawman into the discussion.

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  • zerg rushzerg rush Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    Arde wrote: »
    Arde wrote: »
    zerg rush wrote: »
    jdarksun wrote: »
    It's a serious question. If they're dangerous enough to strip all liberty from, how are they not so dangerous that they're allowed to live?

    You can actually make a much more convincing case that the templars don't go far enough than that they go too far. Personally I'd say you need to find a balance of mercy and prudence. A life in a gilded cage is better than no life at all, and mages have great potential to be good.

    As someone who played a mage I thought the Templars were huge arseholes, but when you look at it objectively it's hard to not see their point.

    That's not it. The Templar are exacerbating the problem by creating life difficult for the mages.


    Do you think we could eradicate homosexuality by sending out squads to kill or imprison gays? All it would do is cause them to hide who they are. Why on earth would squads be able to capture any more than a small fraction of mages?

    Unless a gay person can actually cause massive destruction/genocide just by himself/herself, then no, your argument is really stupid and piss-poor.


    Actually, there is nothing wrong with his or her argument.

    Replace "gay" with pretty much anything you want and it still holds true just the same. If you ostrecize, capture, or kill people for something they can't necessarily control then they are probably going to try to hide so as to avoid the afformentioned bad things.

    That's just the desire to continue being alive on your own terms, which is fairly universal, I think (unless you are a Qunari).
    Some people really like to bring in a stupid strawman into any argument, don't they?

    Y'know what, fuck you guys - guess what, they don't care to restrain/subdue/discriminate gay relationships in Dragon Age universe, so fuck you assholes who always want to mess up a good discussion with something completely unrelated.

    It doesn't have to be about homosexuals. Suppressing anything with force of violence doesn't work too hot.

    Christianity in the Roman era? Nope. Homosexuality in Iran? Nope. Drug war? Nope. Terrorism? Nope.


    The only thing that brutal crackdowns achieve is causing the subjected groups to hide even harder.

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  • chrono_travellerchrono_traveller Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    You act is if locking people up for conditions they can't control is something that we don't do in modern times.

    We certainly do. But I thought we were debating about what should be done?

    Just to restate: I'm for registration and have some type of mentoring program that they would need to be enrolled in (for want of a better word). Teach them the dangers of being a mage. Be up front with them, tell them the dangers, how to avoid being possessed, etc. Remove the stigma of being a mage. This, is partly the reason for a lot of the problems caused (at least in the game).
    Jowan, Connor, etc. do what they do party because the Templars oppress them.

    The draconian methods the templars use just make things worse and more unstable. One escaped mage has so much power to cause havoc because all the other mages are cooped up in one space. Its even showed through the Mages' Collective that this isn't working anyway. There are enough apostates that they even have their own community.

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  • BehemothBehemoth Registered User regular
    edited December 2009
    zerg rush wrote: »
    Behemoth wrote: »
    zerg rush wrote: »
    Arde wrote: »
    zerg rush wrote: »
    jdarksun wrote: »
    It's a serious question. If they're dangerous enough to strip all liberty from, how are they not so dangerous that they're allowed to live?

    You can actually make a much more convincing case that the templars don't go far enough than that they go too far. Personally I'd say you need to find a balance of mercy and prudence. A life in a gilded cage is better than no life at all, and mages have great potential to be good.

    As someone who played a mage I thought the Templars were huge arseholes, but when you look at it objectively it's hard to not see their point.

    That's not it. The Templar are exacerbating the problem by creating life difficult for the mages.


    Do you think we could eradicate homosexuality by sending out squads to kill or imprison gays? All it would do is cause them to hide who they are. Why on earth would squads be able to capture any more than a small fraction of mages?

    Unless a gay person can actually cause massive destruction/genocide just by himself/herself, then no, your argument is really stupid and piss-poor.

    Mages are born at random in the population. A person doesn't even know they're a mage until late childhood/early puberty. Being born a mage isn't a choice.

    It isn't about them being able to blow up things with their mind. It's about how, if you try to suppress them under the threat of murder (example: Iran), the only thing it achieves is making them hide better.

    Actually, it is about being able to blow things up from your mind. That's pretty different from being attracted to the same sex, in my mind at least.

    And that's not the only thing it achieves, it effectively prevents the situation present in the Tevinter Imperium: Mages are kings, everyone else is a walking battery.

    How are you going to capture them though?

    The Arl didn't see his own son as a mage. The Templar in his employ couldn't magic-sense him. The only way anyone knew he was a mage was his own mother. If your goal is to have all mages be trained to not blow up into demons, you need to have an atmosphere where people aren't afraid to acknowledge that they are mages.

    What do you mean?
    Conner wasn't sent to the Circle because his mother was in denial. And Isolde had access to resources that your average farmer's wife didn't. That has nothing to do with the general populace not being afraid of mages. I got the impression that they very much are and understand why the Templars do what they do.

    The whole point of the Templars is to prevent both situations like Conner's and situations like Tevinter, ie: blood mages wreaking havoc. You're thinking of them as oppressive, fascist thugs, when they're actually interested in protecting the general populace from the threat of a small minority that has the power to enslave and/or kill them. There are enough Templars that if a cabal of blood mages did arise, they could fight it effectively, or even call an Exalted March if it got too bad.

    Behemoth on
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  • RanadielRanadiel Registered User
    edited December 2009
    jdarksun wrote: »
    jdarksun wrote: »
    It's a serious question. If [Mages are] dangerous enough to strip all liberty from, how are they not so dangerous that they're allowed to live?
    You can actually make a much more convincing case that the templars don't go far enough than that they go too far. Personally I'd say you need to find a balance of mercy and prudence. A life in a gilded cage is better than no life at all, and mages have great potential to be good.

    As someone who played a mage I thought the Templars were huge arseholes, but when you look at it objectively it's hard to not see their point.
    I think the point we disagree on is that life in a gilded cage is better than no life at all. It certainly isn't for their families, who have their mageling children taken away at a very young age (6-12). They'll never see each other again after that.

    The children only have three things to look forward to: an early death at the hands of overzealous Templars, being turned into a zombie through the Rite of Tranquility, or the Harrowing (which may kill them anyway).

    Whatever "good" they're allowed to do is directed by their owners. The Chantry set it up so they can raise a personal army of indoctrinated slaves.

    Whether or not you think the reasons for doing this are justified, the end result is unquestionably evil.

    This.

    I think Morrigan said it best, "Given enough time, the prisoner learns to love the cell."

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  • MumblyfishMumblyfish Registered User
    edited December 2009
    There are no people - or, shit, things - analogous to mages in reality so quit it with the analogies, goddamn!

    Mumblyfish on
This discussion has been closed.