That's what I don't really get about Superman, he's just that damn perfect. Not his powers, I can live with that, but his personality, he's a truly heroic person, he never has to overcome his own fear, never has to struggle with the immense amount of power he has, never has to deal with the fact that he is effectively a God, because it doesn't occur to him that his power would ever get in the way of the right thing.
In my personal view of Superman, I think he does struggle with his own issues, and has doubts sometimes, but ultimately, he gets over them, because that's what a man does, never mind a super man. He doesn't wallow in his own insecurities and failings, because he doesn't have time to, and because it would be pointless.
I remember someone once likening Superman to a paternal figure, caring for the entire world, and that's how I've looked at him ever since. Sure, sometimes he gets out of bed, and his back hurts, and someone stole his newspaper, and he ran out of coffee filters, and his wife's on his ass to take her on a vacation, and he really, really just wants to go have a beer and enjoy five minutes of peace and quiet.
And then he remembers that he has responsibilities and work to do, so he puts on his pajamas and goes to punch an alien invader in the face, just so he can get up tomorrow and do the same thing all over again.
i was actually just talking about this last night. to me, superman's biggest issue is (of course) not physical danger, but mental danger. superman in my own personal view is really about emotions.
the best solo superman comics don't deal with him fighting a big external menace, but rather the internal menaces of his psyche. superman is an affirmation that no matter how good-looking or strong or powerful you are, you can still feel lonely and helpless and sad. everybody feels that way sometimes and that's okay exactly because everyone feels that way. you can get over it.
for example, let's take two of the best known superman stories- "whatever happened to the man of tomorrow" and the much more recent "all-star superman". their impact comes from their emotional weight. "man of tomorrow" is, ultimately, about being afraid of letting the people you love down even inadvertently. who hasn't felt that way at some time? the final page of the first issue just kills me.
"all-star", of course, is ultimately about facing death with the most dignity possible, and leaving the world a better place in your wake.
these are things that everyone, everyone grapples with sometimes. even superman is not immune. but maybe he can help show us a way to face these feelings constructively and come out better than we were.
and of course there's also the "never lets us down" aspect of his character. i posted a bit about this yesterday as well, but i personally find the idea of a man who is good through to his core such that, no matter the evil, no matter how he's feeling on a given day, no matter the odds or what it will cost him personally, he can and will do the right thing and save us all, well, i find that idea frankly inspirational rather than boring. superman is a wonderful character.
edit- which isn't to say that he's not a difficult character to write for. i can't think of many solo books that would be a bigger challenge to write consistently well.
Servo on
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited December 2009
There is an Action Comics issue where Lois is kidnapped and Superman gets Batman to help him out (Superman is dying from Kryptonite poisoning at the time). It is one of the best issues at the psyche of Superman (as narrated by Bruce).
In one scene, Batman beats up some thugs in a bar to get information, and they keep coming at him, wanting to fight Batman. But Superman limps into the bar, coughing and glowing green and dying, asking for help, and the thugs can't get over to him quickly enough to help him. That is why Superman is awesome.
There is an Action Comics issue where Lois is kidnapped and Superman gets Batman to help him out (Superman is dying from Kryptonite poisoning at the time). It is one of the best issues at the psyche of Superman (as narrated by Bruce).
In one scene, Batman beats up some thugs in a bar to get information, and they keep coming at him, wanting to fight Batman. But Superman limps into the bar, coughing and glowing green and dying, asking for help, and the thugs can't get over to him quickly enough to help him. That is why Superman is awesome.
That is pretty cool, I'd love to read that. On the other side of it, I love when characters react this way to Captain America. Usually it's other heroes, but it's the same kind of feeling, that just his presence makes people want to be the best version of themselves.
Langly on
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited December 2009
I'll scan it in this weekend, I just need to find it. I've been doing a purge and sell of my collection and have issues mixed up here and there.
Red Son and All-Star Superman are definitely two great Superman stories with a lot of depth and emotional weight. I actually think Dark Knight Returns (and to a lesser extent DKSA, which I kind of have a soft spot for even though I know it's pretty ludicrous) presents an interesting take on Superman as well. It/they show the heroic side of him, but also that for all his power he can still be co-opted and compromised.
fray on
"I told you," said Ford. "Eddies in the space-time continuum."
"And this is his sofa, is it?" said Arthur.
Solar, you know I love The Sentry too, but I've got to ask you to give Superman another chance! A lot of the stories noted above are really worthwhile reads.
Also, get he issue of Hitman where Superman makes an appearance, if you can find it.
Wildcat on
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Bloods EndBlade of TyshallePunch dimensionRegistered Userregular
Solar, you know I love The Sentry too, but I've got to ask you to give Superman another chance! A lot of the stories noted above are really worthwhile reads.
I said I would, didn't I?
Anyway, I'll have to wait until my Amazon order with Moon Knight, Iron Fist, She Hulk and the latest Nova TPB turns up before I get new stuff.
All-Star Superman really got me, I loved it. Actually, I really liked the Lex Luthor portrayal in it. He's not just a jerk, he's a guy who feels this supreme inferiority that he knows is completely justified as well as being completely unfair. In any other world he'd be able to be the best, or at least try and get close. But with Superman around, he's always going to be just not quite as impressive.
When I was 13 I thought Superman was boring because he was 'perfect'.
Then I read some Superman comics!
Superman is 'boring' (or other common complaints) because writers have difficulty writing about a 'perfect' character, not because the charcter himself is perfect.
When I was 13 I thought Superman was boring because he was 'perfect'.
Then I read some Superman comics!
Superman is 'boring' (or other common complaints) because writers have difficulty writing about a 'perfect' character, not because the charcter himself is perfect.
Just checking in and making my biannual recommendation:
if you want to understand WHY Superman works as a character, read "Secret Identity" by Busiek/Immonen. And then watch "The Iron Giant."
To me, those might be the best stories about Superman, and why Superman is the icon he is. Of course, "Superman" isn't actually in either of those stories.
Joe Kelly and Mark Schultz should write Superman forever. Even Loeb did a surprisingly decent job, even though I feel like he really started the LET'S GO BACK TO THE SILVER AGE mentality in his Superman run that DC still follows.
Sadly no. There are some great panels in that book, and the art is truly great. The way they draw the little coloured circles on the page to emphasis the impact of certain strikes is a lovely touch. Also Danny and Orson are written together really well, the old and the young etc.
Sadly no. There are some great panels in that book, and the art is truly great. The way they draw the little coloured circles on the page to emphasis the impact of certain strikes is a lovely touch. Also Danny and Orson are written together really well, the old and the young etc.
Thanks for nothing!
I'm looking for preview pages or whatever to share, since you are a damn tease, but not having any luck.
Orson Randall punching that Assassin's heart out is good, as is when Steel Serpent and Iron Fist flying kick towards each other and the next shot is of the skyscraper with light exploding out of the level they are on.
Blah, I remember scanning a ton of IIF stuff for the dedicated thread, but that thread must have been nuked at some point. I'lll post some stuff later.
jkylefulton on
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited December 2009
I had these scanned in but S_D beat me to it, and way before Mark Millar decided to do the same thing only not as good.
Nite-Wing's making his entrance to a bunch of criminals:
Posts
I made it to be easy.
Just like your mother.
look everyone knows my mother is easy
it is common knowledge
i was actually just talking about this last night. to me, superman's biggest issue is (of course) not physical danger, but mental danger. superman in my own personal view is really about emotions.
the best solo superman comics don't deal with him fighting a big external menace, but rather the internal menaces of his psyche. superman is an affirmation that no matter how good-looking or strong or powerful you are, you can still feel lonely and helpless and sad. everybody feels that way sometimes and that's okay exactly because everyone feels that way. you can get over it.
for example, let's take two of the best known superman stories- "whatever happened to the man of tomorrow" and the much more recent "all-star superman". their impact comes from their emotional weight. "man of tomorrow" is, ultimately, about being afraid of letting the people you love down even inadvertently. who hasn't felt that way at some time? the final page of the first issue just kills me.
"all-star", of course, is ultimately about facing death with the most dignity possible, and leaving the world a better place in your wake.
these are things that everyone, everyone grapples with sometimes. even superman is not immune. but maybe he can help show us a way to face these feelings constructively and come out better than we were.
and of course there's also the "never lets us down" aspect of his character. i posted a bit about this yesterday as well, but i personally find the idea of a man who is good through to his core such that, no matter the evil, no matter how he's feeling on a given day, no matter the odds or what it will cost him personally, he can and will do the right thing and save us all, well, i find that idea frankly inspirational rather than boring. superman is a wonderful character.
edit- which isn't to say that he's not a difficult character to write for. i can't think of many solo books that would be a bigger challenge to write consistently well.
In one scene, Batman beats up some thugs in a bar to get information, and they keep coming at him, wanting to fight Batman. But Superman limps into the bar, coughing and glowing green and dying, asking for help, and the thugs can't get over to him quickly enough to help him. That is why Superman is awesome.
of course, grant morrison helped.
That is pretty cool, I'd love to read that. On the other side of it, I love when characters react this way to Captain America. Usually it's other heroes, but it's the same kind of feeling, that just his presence makes people want to be the best version of themselves.
"And this is his sofa, is it?" said Arthur.
Also, get he issue of Hitman where Superman makes an appearance, if you can find it.
Superman seems to bring out the best in writers. Like Ennis, with the one Hitman issue, and all of JLA and Hitman
I said I would, didn't I?
Anyway, I'll have to wait until my Amazon order with Moon Knight, Iron Fist, She Hulk and the latest Nova TPB turns up before I get new stuff.
Then I read some Superman comics!
Superman is 'boring' (or other common complaints) because writers have difficulty writing about a 'perfect' character, not because the charcter himself is perfect.
if you want to understand WHY Superman works as a character, read "Secret Identity" by Busiek/Immonen. And then watch "The Iron Giant."
To me, those might be the best stories about Superman, and why Superman is the icon he is. Of course, "Superman" isn't actually in either of those stories.
Geek: Remixed - A Decade's worth of ruined pop culture memories
Xbox Live - Fatboy PDX
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
I have nothing left to give, Servo.
I hope the next generation of comic book writers will be mining all the Grant Morrison creations that are being presently ignored or left alone.
I guess Grant Morrison is a secret time traveler who went by the names "Joe Simon" and "Jack Kirby" in 1942. The More You Know!
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
Holy Shit. This book is awesome.
Do you have a scanner? I had several awesome panels/pages scanned from that, but I deleted all of my comic/art stuff.
Thanks for nothing!
I'm looking for preview pages or whatever to share, since you are a damn tease, but not having any luck.
That's one of my favourite scenes from the first arc of Iron Fist.
Nite-Wing's making his entrance to a bunch of criminals:
(spoiled for size)