I don't mean to demean your personal experience, I just mean quite literally that no matter how much you've studied you can't speak authoritatively about what any one out of 90 million people cooks. It's just not possible.
Why yes, it is possible that out of the millions of people in Sichuan there's some guy who's making food utterly and completely differently from absolutely everyone else when he decides to make traditional Sichuan food. Excellent point.
Adrien's point, I think, is that the bolded does not represent a monolithic concept. It means different things to different people, even within the area of Sichuan. It's probable that the variation isn't very dramatic, sure, but it's enough to make it difficult to draw a clear dividing line between the authentic and the inauthentic.
I don't mean to demean your personal experience, I just mean quite literally that no matter how much you've studied you can't speak authoritatively about what any one out of 90 million people cooks. It's just not possible.
Why yes, it is possible that out of the millions of people in Sichuan there's some guy who's making food utterly and completely differently from absolutely everyone else when he decides to make traditional Sichuan food. Excellent point.
Eh? There's no need for the attitude. I've been totally respectful of your opinion.
Because your point is completely meaningless?
I mean, seriously, what's the reasoning to pointing out that there's probably a small minority of people somewhere in Sichuan who cook what they consider to be Sichuan cuisine that no one else in Sichuan does?
I don't mean to demean your personal experience, I just mean quite literally that no matter how much you've studied you can't speak authoritatively about what any one out of 90 million people cooks. It's just not possible.
Why yes, it is possible that out of the millions of people in Sichuan there's some guy who's making food utterly and completely differently from absolutely everyone else when he decides to make traditional Sichuan food. Excellent point.
Adrien's point, I think, is that the bolded does not represent a monolithic concept. It means different things to different people, even within the area of Sichuan. It's probable that the variation isn't very dramatic, sure, but it's enough to make it difficult to draw a clear dividing line between the authentic and the inauthentic.
The line is very, very clear between actual authentic Sichuan cuisine and Americanized Sichuan cuisine.
I don't mean to demean your personal experience, I just mean quite literally that no matter how much you've studied you can't speak authoritatively about what any one out of 90 million people cooks. It's just not possible.
Why yes, it is possible that out of the millions of people in Sichuan there's some guy who's making food utterly and completely differently from absolutely everyone else when he decides to make traditional Sichuan food. Excellent point.
Adrien's point, I think, is that the bolded does not represent a monolithic concept. It means different things to different people, even within the area of Sichuan. It's probable that the variation isn't very dramatic, sure, but it's enough to make it difficult to draw a clear dividing line between the authentic and the inauthentic.
The line is very, very clear between actual authentic Sichuan cuisine and Americanized Sichuan cuisine.
Ah, I was unclear on the topic of discussion. Yeah, American-Chinese food probably ought to go by another name. I thought we were talking about the validity of the label "authentic" which I question. It's useful relatively, I suppose, in this particular case, but in general it's mostly meaningless wanking imo.
Every once in a while, some French wine industry association will buy a page in The Economist raging against those fuckers who dare label their product Champagne when the grapes weren't grown in the Champagne region of France. Nevermind that it's a sparkling 60/40 Chard/Pinot, utterly indistinguishable from what is produced in that region, it isn't authentic.
Believe me, if what was served in most "authentic" Chinese restaurants in America were indistinguishable from what's served in China I'd have no problem.
What if I think authentic Chinese food sucks, and the Americanized version is better?
then you're a fucking philistine
I'd like to know why
cuz u r
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited December 2009
Eljeffe said the same thing, why didn't you pick on him too? He made the distinction between authentic and good (eg tasty) and stated that there's several authentic foods he prefers the american version of, for taste reasons.
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I don't mean to demean your personal experience, I just mean quite literally that no matter how much you've studied you can't speak authoritatively about what any one out of 90 million people cooks. It's just not possible.
Why yes, it is possible that out of the millions of people in Sichuan there's some guy who's making food utterly and completely differently from absolutely everyone else when he decides to make traditional Sichuan food. Excellent point.
Adrien's point, I think, is that the bolded does not represent a monolithic concept. It means different things to different people, even within the area of Sichuan. It's probable that the variation isn't very dramatic, sure, but it's enough to make it difficult to draw a clear dividing line between the authentic and the inauthentic.
The line is very, very clear between actual authentic Sichuan cuisine and Americanized Sichuan cuisine.
Yeah.
God I miss actual Sichuan shit.
I think I've become a wuss about spicy food again since coming back to America. My diet needs more of that delicious pain.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited December 2009
My chinese gf's dad makes his own chilli marinade pickle thing I dunno what it actually was.
He sticks chilli in a pot of something with special something and sticks it in a pantry for ages and gave me some and there was a sun in my mouth.
ie a burning ball of delicious fire.
I also live close to Chinatown and her dad complimented one of the restaurants we went to as being pretty good so I'm guessing the food was what he wanted. He wanted me to tast a particular type of steamed fish or something. He told the chinese chef how to cook it. Was beautiful and tasty.
There's a place across the road that makes a chinese soup thing that tasted just like the one my gf ate as a child as well and she said it's food was pretty good, and another place close by that has similar food to what she ate, so I guess the chinese in sydney is pretty good and not too aussified....as long as you don't try to buy it in a foodhall or mall. In which case it's basically red blobs of msg. :P
I remmber in particular at a place across the raod we ordered a hot pot of beef marinated in chilli and my gawddddd it was so hot. So hot and so delicious. I couldn't stop eating it even though I wanted to bury my head in the freezer.
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Edit: Snarkiness aside, most places don't actually have a "secret menu" so much as a menu you just have to ask for. Unfortunately, that menu itself is often in Chinese.
well, my only experience with secret menus is at in and out (this is how cultured I am), so I was sort of hoping I could just order my gemeral tso's 'animal style' or something
I am aware general tso's is an american thing, don't kill me too hard
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it was the smallest on the list but
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Actually, in a couple places I've been, because it's in Chinese anyway, the "secret menu" is posted up front. One had it on a big dry erase board.
Really your best bet off the top of my head if you don't know anyone that speaks Chinese is to look up a few dishes and then ask the waiter if it can be made similar to how it is in China rather than American style.
Edit: Snarkiness aside, most places don't actually have a "secret menu" so much as a menu you just have to ask for. Unfortunately, that menu itself is often in Chinese.
Edit: Snarkiness aside, most places don't actually have a "secret menu" so much as a menu you just have to ask for. Unfortunately, that menu itself is often in Chinese.
Edit: Snarkiness aside, most places don't actually have a "secret menu" so much as a menu you just have to ask for. Unfortunately, that menu itself is often in Chinese.
That's a secret menu to me, but whatever.
Pfft. Over a billion people can read it.
I mean it's not secret to me, it's just... I consider it a secret so...
ARGH
PFFT.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited December 2009
Being a frequent local to one of the chinese places with one of those chinese boards with menu items, I know some of the waiters and waitresses and get them to translate for me, and order what sounds nice.
Sometimes they don't know exactly how to describe it to me in english but I can play a few rounds of 20 questions until I get a feel for it and if I like that feel I will order it and try it out.
Since my gf moved over here when she was 8 she can't read those menus either, but she can ask better questions (if they happen to speak mandarin, but most shops do) than I can.
Sometimes "a little bit spicey" turns out to be "holy shit where's the freezer". But it's such a good pain!
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Any asian restaurant I've been to in Dublin has the "secret menu". You get a menu, and halfway through it stops being in english.
I didn't think too much about it (as there's a little asian town and i would imagine its nice doing things in your own language when you're living abroad), until I went with a chinese girl and her food was completely different. A complete difference in the type of meal, as opposed to the meal itself.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited December 2009
Apparently there is a subtle difference in the food across the road (I asked some specific questions to be sure I wasn't out of my tree) but that it's not big enough for her to care. So close enough I guess.
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For me, the increased enjoyment ascribed to "expertise" is about understand something to the point where you can appreciate the nuances. I am a home theater snob, for example. I can see the difference in color reproduction and black levels and so on between a $2000 Sony Bravia and a $600 Westinghouse. I can see the increase in detail of a 1080p TV versus 640 or 720. I can hear the difference between a $200 subwoofer and a $1000 (or more) subwoofer. And because I can pick out these differences, because my mind is aware of these things, I enjoy a movie more on a good HT setup than on a mediocre or poor one. On the upside, I enjoy movies more on a good setup than I would if I didn't know the difference. On the downside, I enjoy movies less on a lousy setup, because I'm conscious of what I'm missing. Generally it's a positive trade-off, because I watch most of my movies on my own stuff, which is pretty good.
And this holds in a number of areas. Food, film, music - as I've educated myself more, I've found more enjoyment in quality stuff, at the expense of less enjoyment of subpar stuff. If you have the means to surround yourself with that quality stuff, I fail to see it as a bad thing.
I suspect it is more than just appreciating the nuances, it is the fact that you may not have even noticed them before. The problem I have is simply that I want to enjoy what I have without having to explore every facet of it. I appreciate that others do take part in this exploration, and I am sure I benefit from the fact that they do so.
Yes, I agree. And cinema is a great example of that. Once upon a time, I knew dick about cinematography and direction. Movies were "good" or "bad" and that was about it. Now I get, for example, the difficulty in setting up Scorcese-like camera shot following a single character through a variety of sets for five minutes. Even if the movie isn't that great, I can pick up a detail like that and appreciate the difficulty that went into creating it. And if a movie is great, a little nuance like that will make it even better. On the other hand, an otherwise enjoyable movie might be harder to enjoy if there are things conspicuously bad about it. Bad camera work, poor timing and the like stand out really starkly.
And I don't think this is the result of just convincing myself that X is better because my refined sense tell me that X is better, as was suggested earlier. I can see that being the case with, say, the relative quality of different HDTVs. A person can imagine increased resolution. I don't think I'm really imagining that certain directorial or cinematography tricks are really hard to pull off, for example.
I think the trouble comes in at what point does your appreciation/notice of some of the more nuanced points sway your overall view of the complete work? The Avatar thread is a great example of the fact that people not only set their bar differently, but they defend it tooth and nail. And this is where I am grateful that some people notice it, but I do prefer that the details disappear into an emotional experience at times. And many feel that to analyze the ingredients takes what was a solid feeling and reduces it to the base feelings, robbing it of the entire picture.
Games like Shadow of the Colossus are perfect in this regard for me. The mix of music and visual along with the systematic nature of the task definitely combined to an overall experience that was far above the actual parts.
Wines are amusing to me, because to "appreciate" the finer points means to no longer just accept the full experience and to focus on the smaller parts of the whole experience. What could have been a pleasant drink in the evening while enjoying the remainder of the day becomes a focus on the baser points of the $4 wine I bought to the point that it is now a sore spot of the evening.
In this regard, I do think it is important to get back to, I think it was Quid's point that some things are a means to an end. I think it is sometimes shocking to find that what we take enjoyment out of, or pay attention to, is merely a means to an end for most that partake. Movies, wine, books, whatever.
I have a diploma in Wines & Spirits. One step down from a Master of Wine.
But I can still enjoy cheap wine, if it's good value.
A bottle of Montana Chardonnay is very nice, especially if it's well chilled. But then so is some Puligny-Montrachet 2000.
Maybe some Penfolds Bin 2. Or a Bulgarian Cab Sauv. Or Chateau Margaux, too.
It's all good. But the study and experience means I just am able to enjoy more expensive wines too. Before I studied wine, I think they just tasted the same as the cheap stuff to me.
For some reason, knowing how the champagne method works (in great detail) means I can't really enjoy non-bottle-fermented sparkling wine. But it's qualitatively different, so I guess that makes sense.
My point is, knowing your shit doesn't mean you have to be a snob. You can learn how something expensive tastes, and then it's maybe worth your money. But you might not be able to afford expensive, and then your 'expertise' helps you have a good wine or good Chinese meal for less money.
I've had exactly the same experience. And, in relation to the blog post itself, having been to China I'm actually dreading the yearly Christmas Day excursion to a "Chinese" restaurant. I haven't been able to tolerate the stuff since I got a taste of the real deal.
This seems kind of an obvious relationship on the surface, the whole connoisseur rejecting the pedestrian, but why does it happen? Do our tastes genuinely get "refined" somehow? Why do you think it is, what happens? What experiences have you had with this? Are you an "expert" of some sort who has lost your tolerance for the average experience?
It's interesting how many fields this applies to as well. It's not just food and drink of course. Literature, music, and I've noticed my tolerance for certain playstyles in games like Magic: the Gathering diminished as my abilities blossomed.
For the record, I can't tolerate shitty Chinese either, and if something says it's Sichuan, it better be fucking Sichuan and not some Cantonese/Hunan crap with a couple of peppers added. Fucking Ma-Po Tofu isn't just some bricks of tofu sitting in ketchup, and sizzling pork belly isn't Oscar Meyer bacon and jalapenos. I get insulted by false advertising. I'll drive all the way to Chinatown to my favorite Taiwanese and Sichuan places (40 min drive) or I'll cook it myself before I'll get some piss poor excuse just down the road.
Oh, and bad bourbon/scotch also pisses me off.
However, I think it's more than just connoseurism... I'm not a Chinese food expert and can't tell you which part of the province the cook is from. As you get older and as you experience more, your expectations change, obviously. But, if you have a passion for something, your tolerance for bullshit diminishes because you've discovered something you really enjoy prepared in a way you enjoy and you don't want that enjoyment fucked with. I like good hamburgers, too, but I'll still get McDonalds if I don't want to drive to 5 Guys or Beck's Prime, because I don't give as much a shit about burgers.
However, I have noted a recent change... before this last holiday, I wasn't a big fan of boudin. I've grown up near the Texas-LA border and have lived here most of my life except when I was in the service, so it's not like I've never been exposed to it. However, most boudin I've had (usually Zummo's), has been pretty bland. Mostly rice with some pork or chicken thrown in. However, this weekend, I tried some from a place called Don's Specialty Meats right outside of Lafayette on IH-10. That shit was FANTASTIC. Nice big pieces of organ meat mixed in the rice. You could really taste the smoky, coppery flavor. Now, I'm never going to have Zummo's again and I'm going to be ordering from Don's for a big party I'm planning in a month. I don't know if this love affair is going to stick. However, for now, I'm going to tell everyone. Sometimes, the experience is just so good -- after your experiences have been so-so -- that a passion is created. Even if it's fleeting. And, I'm far from a boudin expert, nor do I plan to be. But, I'm never going to eat shitty, bland boudin again.
My point is, knowing your shit doesn't mean you have to be a snob. You can learn how something expensive tastes, and then it's maybe worth your money. But you might not be able to afford expensive, and then your 'expertise' helps you have a good wine or good Chinese meal for less money.
The perception, though, is that as you learn more about something, you are less able to enjoy some of the more readily accessible items. Were I to learn more and more about how a good whiskey tastes, could I still appreciate the cheap Jameson?
Now, I am more than willing to explore how false that perception is. I think that was the point of this thread.
My point is, knowing your shit doesn't mean you have to be a snob. You can learn how something expensive tastes, and then it's maybe worth your money. But you might not be able to afford expensive, and then your 'expertise' helps you have a good wine or good Chinese meal for less money.
The perception, though, is that as you learn more about something, you are less able to enjoy some of the more readily accessible items. Were I to learn more and more about how a good whiskey tastes, could I still appreciate the cheap Jameson?
Now, I am more than willing to explore how false that perception is. I think that was the point of this thread.
Well, in my experience it's not true at all. I like Jack and Coke. I like very cold lager.
I'm probably more likely to put ice or ginger ale or coke in good whiskey because I feel I've got nothing to prove.
Well, in my experience it's not true at all. I like Jack and Coke. I like very cold lager.
I'm probably more likely to put ice or ginger ale or coke in good whiskey because I feel I've got nothing to prove.
Well, an easy mark to explore for my point is cartoons. There is definitely a feeling that, as you are a child you can enjoy the more childlike items, but as you grow, so too do your tastes. I can defend a scant few of the cartoons I enjoyed as a child.
As far as ice.... I didn't realize that was supposed to be a sign of weakness. I just dislike the taste of coke. I have become interested in the past couple of days as to why I put ice in my whiskey. Especially considering everything else I drink is hot. (Tea and coffee.) I remember having it explained once that hot sake was served that way to hide the fact that it was poorer quality. I know our taste buds are less sensitive to cold sweets. I'm curious how that would change the whiskey I drink.
Right, and I'm saying that people probably originally called Chinese food Chinese food because that is how the people that were from China cooked when they got here. Had to do with how the foods were prepared and the way they were cooked. The name stuck, and nobody has come up with a compelling reason to change that.
Yes I have.
When you claim what you're cooking is the same as what's made in China. Particularly a specific region of it.
Cause it's an out and out lie in many places.
Nowadays we have this fabulous invention that allows me to go eat at a restaraunt here and then go eat at a restaraunt over there in about a day and a half and I can compare and contrast and say, "hey, this is reasonably close given the availability of ingredients" or I could compare it to here and say "not even in the same ballpark".
Well, in my experience it's not true at all. I like Jack and Coke. I like very cold lager.
I'm probably more likely to put ice or ginger ale or coke in good whiskey because I feel I've got nothing to prove.
Well, an easy mark to explore for my point is cartoons. There is definitely a feeling that, as you are a child you can enjoy the more childlike items, but as you grow, so too do your tastes. I can defend a scant few of the cartoons I enjoyed as a child.
As far as ice.... I didn't realize that was supposed to be a sign of weakness. I just dislike the taste of coke. I have become interested in the past couple of days as to why I put ice in my whiskey. Especially considering everything else I drink is hot. (Tea and coffee.) I remember having it explained once that hot sake was served that way to hide the fact that it was poorer quality. I know our taste buds are less sensitive to cold sweets. I'm curious how that would change the whiskey I drink.
Cold changes sweetness most obviously, but plenty of other aspects of taste. Plus the ice melts and dilutes the whiskey.
But I like my whiskey cold
Oh, and the hot sake=bad sake is just an urban myth.
Oh, and the cartoon thing I don't think is a good analogy. You're conflating getting older and smarter with knowing more about cartoons. They're not the same.
Right, and I'm saying that people probably originally called Chinese food Chinese food because that is how the people that were from China cooked when they got here. Had to do with how the foods were prepared and the way they were cooked. The name stuck, and nobody has come up with a compelling reason to change that.
Yes I have.
When you claim what you're cooking is the same as what's made in China. Particularly a specific region of it.
Cause it's an out and out lie in many places.
Nowadays we have this fabulous invention that allows me to go eat at a restaraunt here and then go eat at a restaraunt over there in about a day and a half and I can compare and contrast and say, "hey, this is reasonably close given the availability of ingredients" or I could compare it to here and say "not even in the same ballpark".
I am unsure of the point you are making. My point at that time was that nobody has come up with a reason that is compelling enough for the populace at large to change what they call the food. I have never, ever, tried to defend that it is identical to the food served that is actually in China. I went on to claim this is similar to french fries. It is called Chinese food because it is prepared in a Chinese way in the same way that french fries were seen as being done in a French way. (I ceded that point, though; no reason to hammer on about it being wrong.)
Cold changes sweetness most obviously, but plenty of other aspects of taste. Plus the ice melts and dilutes the whiskey.
But I like my whiskey cold
Oh, and the hot sake=bad sake is just an urban myth.
Oh, and the cartoon thing I don't think is a good analogy. You're conflating getting older and smarter with knowing more about cartoons. They're not the same.
Yeah, I confess I mainly add ice to get a diluted effect such that it lasts a bit longer. I seem to recall adding ice took away a fair bit of the "bite." Though, I can not recall the last time I tried. I do plan on trying again now.
And I thought the hot sake == lower quality was fairly legit. I confess I have been had many times by myths, though.
Edit: Completely missed the part of the cartoons. I wasn't conflating getting smarter with knowing more about cartoons. I was conflating getting smarter with having a more critical eye. That is just one example that few people will defend. Whereas some folks will defend shoddy writing in recent works that are not aimed at children with plenty of excuses. See the Avatar thread.
Isn't a lot of Indian food just the shit they were feeding to the British invaders rather than the actual standard local cooking?
Real Indian food is DELICATELY SPICED and in fact the average joe has eaten something that tastes quite like it when his mother was cooking, probably had noodles and clumps of pork.
Fake Indian is something that you would have probably been dared to eat when you were ten.
Actually UK style Indian food (invented for British soldiers in India by Indian fast food vendors who noticed that the soldiers ate a lot of stews for their military rations, then refined into its modern form in Birmingham and Sheffield) is insanely delicious, and in it's own way very authentic. It has very strong roots in Indian cooking styles, and is very popular with Indian people in the UK. It is so much better than anything you've ever tried in the US (or, dare I say it, in India, although the vegetable sides in India are the same and just as delicious) American Indian food is a strange bastardization with most dishes being horribly under spiced, with nowhere near enough ingredients in the sauces. I've also been asked how spicey I wanted my curry, in an Indian restaurant. The spiciness is defined by the name you buffoon. You can no more make a spicey korma than you can make a cool vindaloo!
Oh, and earlier someone was saying you couldn't get tofu and meat together in the same dish in the US. Come to San Francisco and go to one of our three non touristy chinatowns. The one I went to a few days ago, didn't even have an option to have tofu without meat!
Well, in my experience it's not true at all. I like Jack and Coke. I like very cold lager.
I'm probably more likely to put ice or ginger ale or coke in good whiskey because I feel I've got nothing to prove.
Well, an easy mark to explore for my point is cartoons. There is definitely a feeling that, as you are a child you can enjoy the more childlike items, but as you grow, so too do your tastes. I can defend a scant few of the cartoons I enjoyed as a child.
As far as ice.... I didn't realize that was supposed to be a sign of weakness. I just dislike the taste of coke. I have become interested in the past couple of days as to why I put ice in my whiskey. Especially considering everything else I drink is hot. (Tea and coffee.) I remember having it explained once that hot sake was served that way to hide the fact that it was poorer quality. I know our taste buds are less sensitive to cold sweets. I'm curious how that would change the whiskey I drink.
Cold changes sweetness most obviously, but plenty of other aspects of taste. Plus the ice melts and dilutes the whiskey.
But I like my whiskey cold
Oh, and the hot sake=bad sake is just an urban myth.
Oh, and the cartoon thing I don't think is a good analogy. You're conflating getting older and smarter with knowing more about cartoons. They're not the same.
Any sake can be served hot, but you try drinking the typical hot sake sake cold and you'll think you're drinking battery acid.
Eljeffe said the same thing, why didn't you pick on him too? He made the distinction between authentic and good (eg tasty) and stated that there's several authentic foods he prefers the american version of, for taste reasons.
I'm cooler.
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I think the trouble comes in at what point does your appreciation/notice of some of the more nuanced points sway your overall view of the complete work? The Avatar thread is a great example of the fact that people not only set their bar differently, but they defend it tooth and nail. And this is where I am grateful that some people notice it, but I do prefer that the details disappear into an emotional experience at times. And many feel that to analyze the ingredients takes what was a solid feeling and reduces it to the base feelings, robbing it of the entire picture.<snip>
Great point. For me, I find that in the best examples of a work, I typically appreciate it the more I watch it. I don't think I'm alone, either. The first time I watched, say, Brazil - one of my favorite films - I thought, "Wow, great movie." I caught some of the little bits that really make it great, but I was immersed in the film to the point where I was often just along for the ride. I appreciated the whole moreso than the parts. As I watched it again and again, I started to pick out the little bits that add together. The quirks of characterization, the camera angles, and so on. I appreciated it more and more on successive viewings because I could see the specific things that contributed to the entire experience. And these are things that I probably picked up subconsciously the first time around, but being able to point them out down the road really heightened the experience for me.
There are many films that I would deem "bad" that I still enjoy because I can just get into the visceral experience of it. 2012 is honestly one of the worst films I've ever seen, and I enjoyed it for reasons that had little to do with directorial intention, but I still managed to get pleasure out of the spectacle of the thing. This in spite of the fact that there was not a single aspect of it outside of great CG that I would deem even competent much less good.
I would never watch it again, though. Because all I would see is how awful everything is.
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refer to my earlier post about people loving to look down on others for their taste
Adrien's point, I think, is that the bolded does not represent a monolithic concept. It means different things to different people, even within the area of Sichuan. It's probable that the variation isn't very dramatic, sure, but it's enough to make it difficult to draw a clear dividing line between the authentic and the inauthentic.
Because your point is completely meaningless?
I mean, seriously, what's the reasoning to pointing out that there's probably a small minority of people somewhere in Sichuan who cook what they consider to be Sichuan cuisine that no one else in Sichuan does?
The line is very, very clear between actual authentic Sichuan cuisine and Americanized Sichuan cuisine.
Ah, I was unclear on the topic of discussion. Yeah, American-Chinese food probably ought to go by another name. I thought we were talking about the validity of the label "authentic" which I question. It's useful relatively, I suppose, in this particular case, but in general it's mostly meaningless wanking imo.
Every once in a while, some French wine industry association will buy a page in The Economist raging against those fuckers who dare label their product Champagne when the grapes weren't grown in the Champagne region of France. Nevermind that it's a sparkling 60/40 Chard/Pinot, utterly indistinguishable from what is produced in that region, it isn't authentic.
cuz u r
nobody has actually claimed that.
Sam is purposely being facetious.
Yeah.
God I miss actual Sichuan shit.
I think I've become a wuss about spicy food again since coming back to America. My diet needs more of that delicious pain.
He sticks chilli in a pot of something with special something and sticks it in a pantry for ages and gave me some and there was a sun in my mouth.
ie a burning ball of delicious fire.
I also live close to Chinatown and her dad complimented one of the restaurants we went to as being pretty good so I'm guessing the food was what he wanted. He wanted me to tast a particular type of steamed fish or something. He told the chinese chef how to cook it. Was beautiful and tasty.
There's a place across the road that makes a chinese soup thing that tasted just like the one my gf ate as a child as well and she said it's food was pretty good, and another place close by that has similar food to what she ate, so I guess the chinese in sydney is pretty good and not too aussified....as long as you don't try to buy it in a foodhall or mall. In which case it's basically red blobs of msg. :P
I remmber in particular at a place across the raod we ordered a hot pot of beef marinated in chilli and my gawddddd it was so hot. So hot and so delicious. I couldn't stop eating it even though I wanted to bury my head in the freezer.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Edit: Snarkiness aside, most places don't actually have a "secret menu" so much as a menu you just have to ask for. Unfortunately, that menu itself is often in Chinese.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Really your best bet off the top of my head if you don't know anyone that speaks Chinese is to look up a few dishes and then ask the waiter if it can be made similar to how it is in China rather than American style.
That's a secret menu to me, but whatever.
if anything it'll make them remember you
Pfft. Over a billion people can read it.
I mean it's not secret to me, it's just... I consider it a secret so...
ARGH
PFFT.
Sometimes they don't know exactly how to describe it to me in english but I can play a few rounds of 20 questions until I get a feel for it and if I like that feel I will order it and try it out.
Since my gf moved over here when she was 8 she can't read those menus either, but she can ask better questions (if they happen to speak mandarin, but most shops do) than I can.
Sometimes "a little bit spicey" turns out to be "holy shit where's the freezer". But it's such a good pain!
I didn't think too much about it (as there's a little asian town and i would imagine its nice doing things in your own language when you're living abroad), until I went with a chinese girl and her food was completely different. A complete difference in the type of meal, as opposed to the meal itself.
Beat me on 360: Raybies666
I remember when I had time to be good at games.
The food was better and cheaper.
"Please" often works. Depending on if the place is busy, you could be daring and ask for suggestions.
I think the trouble comes in at what point does your appreciation/notice of some of the more nuanced points sway your overall view of the complete work? The Avatar thread is a great example of the fact that people not only set their bar differently, but they defend it tooth and nail. And this is where I am grateful that some people notice it, but I do prefer that the details disappear into an emotional experience at times. And many feel that to analyze the ingredients takes what was a solid feeling and reduces it to the base feelings, robbing it of the entire picture.
Games like Shadow of the Colossus are perfect in this regard for me. The mix of music and visual along with the systematic nature of the task definitely combined to an overall experience that was far above the actual parts.
Wines are amusing to me, because to "appreciate" the finer points means to no longer just accept the full experience and to focus on the smaller parts of the whole experience. What could have been a pleasant drink in the evening while enjoying the remainder of the day becomes a focus on the baser points of the $4 wine I bought to the point that it is now a sore spot of the evening.
In this regard, I do think it is important to get back to, I think it was Quid's point that some things are a means to an end. I think it is sometimes shocking to find that what we take enjoyment out of, or pay attention to, is merely a means to an end for most that partake. Movies, wine, books, whatever.
But I can still enjoy cheap wine, if it's good value.
A bottle of Montana Chardonnay is very nice, especially if it's well chilled. But then so is some Puligny-Montrachet 2000.
Maybe some Penfolds Bin 2. Or a Bulgarian Cab Sauv. Or Chateau Margaux, too.
It's all good. But the study and experience means I just am able to enjoy more expensive wines too. Before I studied wine, I think they just tasted the same as the cheap stuff to me.
For some reason, knowing how the champagne method works (in great detail) means I can't really enjoy non-bottle-fermented sparkling wine. But it's qualitatively different, so I guess that makes sense.
My point is, knowing your shit doesn't mean you have to be a snob. You can learn how something expensive tastes, and then it's maybe worth your money. But you might not be able to afford expensive, and then your 'expertise' helps you have a good wine or good Chinese meal for less money.
Oh, and bad bourbon/scotch also pisses me off.
However, I think it's more than just connoseurism... I'm not a Chinese food expert and can't tell you which part of the province the cook is from. As you get older and as you experience more, your expectations change, obviously. But, if you have a passion for something, your tolerance for bullshit diminishes because you've discovered something you really enjoy prepared in a way you enjoy and you don't want that enjoyment fucked with. I like good hamburgers, too, but I'll still get McDonalds if I don't want to drive to 5 Guys or Beck's Prime, because I don't give as much a shit about burgers.
However, I have noted a recent change... before this last holiday, I wasn't a big fan of boudin. I've grown up near the Texas-LA border and have lived here most of my life except when I was in the service, so it's not like I've never been exposed to it. However, most boudin I've had (usually Zummo's), has been pretty bland. Mostly rice with some pork or chicken thrown in. However, this weekend, I tried some from a place called Don's Specialty Meats right outside of Lafayette on IH-10. That shit was FANTASTIC. Nice big pieces of organ meat mixed in the rice. You could really taste the smoky, coppery flavor. Now, I'm never going to have Zummo's again and I'm going to be ordering from Don's for a big party I'm planning in a month. I don't know if this love affair is going to stick. However, for now, I'm going to tell everyone. Sometimes, the experience is just so good -- after your experiences have been so-so -- that a passion is created. Even if it's fleeting. And, I'm far from a boudin expert, nor do I plan to be. But, I'm never going to eat shitty, bland boudin again.
The perception, though, is that as you learn more about something, you are less able to enjoy some of the more readily accessible items. Were I to learn more and more about how a good whiskey tastes, could I still appreciate the cheap Jameson?
Now, I am more than willing to explore how false that perception is. I think that was the point of this thread.
Well, in my experience it's not true at all. I like Jack and Coke. I like very cold lager.
I'm probably more likely to put ice or ginger ale or coke in good whiskey because I feel I've got nothing to prove.
Well, an easy mark to explore for my point is cartoons. There is definitely a feeling that, as you are a child you can enjoy the more childlike items, but as you grow, so too do your tastes. I can defend a scant few of the cartoons I enjoyed as a child.
As far as ice.... I didn't realize that was supposed to be a sign of weakness. I just dislike the taste of coke.
Cold changes sweetness most obviously, but plenty of other aspects of taste. Plus the ice melts and dilutes the whiskey.
But I like my whiskey cold
Oh, and the hot sake=bad sake is just an urban myth.
Oh, and the cartoon thing I don't think is a good analogy. You're conflating getting older and smarter with knowing more about cartoons. They're not the same.
I am unsure of the point you are making. My point at that time was that nobody has come up with a reason that is compelling enough for the populace at large to change what they call the food. I have never, ever, tried to defend that it is identical to the food served that is actually in China. I went on to claim this is similar to french fries. It is called Chinese food because it is prepared in a Chinese way in the same way that french fries were seen as being done in a French way. (I ceded that point, though; no reason to hammer on about it being wrong.)
Yeah, I confess I mainly add ice to get a diluted effect such that it lasts a bit longer. I seem to recall adding ice took away a fair bit of the "bite." Though, I can not recall the last time I tried. I do plan on trying again now.
And I thought the hot sake == lower quality was fairly legit. I confess I have been had many times by myths, though.
Edit: Completely missed the part of the cartoons. I wasn't conflating getting smarter with knowing more about cartoons. I was conflating getting smarter with having a more critical eye. That is just one example that few people will defend. Whereas some folks will defend shoddy writing in recent works that are not aimed at children with plenty of excuses. See the Avatar thread.
Actually UK style Indian food (invented for British soldiers in India by Indian fast food vendors who noticed that the soldiers ate a lot of stews for their military rations, then refined into its modern form in Birmingham and Sheffield) is insanely delicious, and in it's own way very authentic. It has very strong roots in Indian cooking styles, and is very popular with Indian people in the UK. It is so much better than anything you've ever tried in the US (or, dare I say it, in India, although the vegetable sides in India are the same and just as delicious) American Indian food is a strange bastardization with most dishes being horribly under spiced, with nowhere near enough ingredients in the sauces. I've also been asked how spicey I wanted my curry, in an Indian restaurant. The spiciness is defined by the name you buffoon. You can no more make a spicey korma than you can make a cool vindaloo!
Oh, and earlier someone was saying you couldn't get tofu and meat together in the same dish in the US. Come to San Francisco and go to one of our three non touristy chinatowns. The one I went to a few days ago, didn't even have an option to have tofu without meat!
Any sake can be served hot, but you try drinking the typical hot sake sake cold and you'll think you're drinking battery acid.
I'm cooler.
Great point. For me, I find that in the best examples of a work, I typically appreciate it the more I watch it. I don't think I'm alone, either. The first time I watched, say, Brazil - one of my favorite films - I thought, "Wow, great movie." I caught some of the little bits that really make it great, but I was immersed in the film to the point where I was often just along for the ride. I appreciated the whole moreso than the parts. As I watched it again and again, I started to pick out the little bits that add together. The quirks of characterization, the camera angles, and so on. I appreciated it more and more on successive viewings because I could see the specific things that contributed to the entire experience. And these are things that I probably picked up subconsciously the first time around, but being able to point them out down the road really heightened the experience for me.
There are many films that I would deem "bad" that I still enjoy because I can just get into the visceral experience of it. 2012 is honestly one of the worst films I've ever seen, and I enjoyed it for reasons that had little to do with directorial intention, but I still managed to get pleasure out of the spectacle of the thing. This in spite of the fact that there was not a single aspect of it outside of great CG that I would deem even competent much less good.
I would never watch it again, though. Because all I would see is how awful everything is.