he had enough to blow a hole in the side of the plane. from there the fire could've possibly spread to the wings and maybe the engine but that would've been bonus points. the objective was to blow a hole open and depressurize the cabin.
Didn't he do it when they were at relatively low altitude? Wouldn't depressurizing the cabin cause more trouble at a high altitude where the air is thinner? Maybe if it would cause the pilot to lose control I could see the point of that so he could cause a crash, but it seems like he would try to aim for a bit more than just depressurization at low altitude.
i imagine it isn't always easy to determine the plane's altitude either
The last few flights of any scale I've been on have had ready access to that information. Some had live maps of the surroundings. This may be a case of 'not in the States!', of course.
i imagine it isn't always easy to determine the plane's altitude either
edit- i'm sure they were praying that allah would make the fire spread too
Well, I'm not talking like he needed to have an altimeter and check a specific number before going boom boom, just something like look out the window and aim for when the plane is high and cruising in flight rather than on approach or right after take off. The only reason why I could see trying to depressurize the plane low to the ground is if you are trying to make it so the pilot doesn't have adequate time respond and prevent a potential crash.
There's probably thousands of ways to commit an act of terrorism on a commercial airline. However, they all require at least one person to act as a suicide bomber, as well as several others to coordinate with him. There's just not many people in the world that are willing and able to do that.
As an example, it seems that the majority of the 9/11 hijackers didn't know it was a suicide mission until they had actually taken the planes. Most of them thought they were doing a run-of-the-mill hijacking.
It's relatively easy to find people in certain parts of the world who are willing to strap a bomb vest on and walk into a marketplace. It's a lot tougher to find smart, trained operatives who are willing and able to engage in a sophisticated suicide plot.
Modern Man on
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
0
Deebaseron my way to work in a suit and a tieAhhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered Userregular
While the exact number of flights that air marshals protect is classified because we don't want terrorists to play a mathematical guessing game based on percentages, the actual number of air marshals employed by the agency is in the thousands.
Beyond the number of flights that air marshals physically cover, the more important question to ask is which flights are air marshals flying on. Using our intelligence-driven, risk-based approach, we deploy marshals on the highest risk flights. That means a team of air marshals might be on one flight based on intel and none may be on the next.
This was in response to news reports quoting anonymous airline-employee sources that they go months of flights without seeing any air marshalls. Duh, that's just because those people are on low-risk flights. According to the numbers fivethirtyeight.com was throwing around the other day, there are like 27,500 departures a day? If there were enough Air Marshalls to make a dent, everyone in the US would know one.
If your objective is to (A) kill a bunch of people on a plane OR (B) crash a plane into some building... wouldn't every flight be as good as the others? Planes these days are crowded no matter where you;re going, and if there's a crashable target in friggin Detroit, there's one in any city.
Backstop on
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Deebaseron my way to work in a suit and a tieAhhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered Userregular
The big problem with these in flight rules is that the moment an explosive gets into an airplane, you've already lost. The only thing that can save you is a miracle, or an incompetent bomber.
Seeing the TSA reaction to this proves that the terrorists have won without killing anyone.
DragonPup on
"I was there, I was there, the day Horus slew the Emperor." -Cpt Garviel Loken
As the federal government begins an inside-out review of airport security after a passenger allegedly sneaked explosives onto a plane last week, attention is turning to a growing debate over a key approach to airline safety: whole-body imaging at airports.
Critics say the technique compromises privacy by letting screeners "peer through clothing and capture detailed, three-dimensional images of individuals completely undressed," according to a recent lawsuit.
But supporters are adamant that the imaging protects privacy while making flying safer.
Hey, we're looking at your junk to protect your privacy! Don't you get it?
It's not the passenger's job to protect a flight from being hijacked.
If you're expecting the government to protect you in a scenario where terrorists try to take over your flight to Wichita, I've got some bad news for you....
Modern Man on
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
It's not the passenger's job to protect a flight from being hijacked.
If you're expecting the government to protect you in a scenario where terrorists try to take over your flight to Wichita, I've got some bad news for you....
Will the government protect me if I take the terrorist's own knife after he's been subdued and slit his throat?
So let's just do a strip search on you every time you go through the gate
Because no one has ever seen you naked, right?
This isn't exactly the same thing.
First of all, those scans are likely not going to be like super magical x-rays that go right through clothes and show all the skin underneath. Its probably going to be some black and white like thing where you can see shapes but you can't necessarily see stuff like tattoos or hair and stuff very well.
Second, there is a difference between a public strip search, and someone looking at images in some other room whom you never see, and they pretty much never see you or even give a shit. Looking at ugly naked bodies all day isn't exactly the best job in the world.
You can google and see what the full-body imaging looks like. You can get a greenish blurry silhouette of hoo-hoo-dillies and tatas.
Another security measure that is very likely to work? Pilots are allowed to carry firearms and, if they do, go through extensive training in how to fight an attacker from a seated/belted/forward-facing starting position.
As for the TSA, I don't think it's any big secret that the point is to deter, not necessarily prevent. I don't know for sure, but I imagine if we just abandoned security altogether, there would be a significant number of disorganized idiot wannabe terrorists who would try to make their name. All the security stuff isn't necesasrily going to find a bomb, but it should give pause anyway to any but the most organized and/or determined terrorist.
Schiphol is currently testing if their full body scanners could even notice the explosive that Nigerian kid used.
My one concern with these security measures is that an agency somewhere ends up with a very big file full of information about me. We already have to give our fingerprints and special photos that show the biometrics of our faces when we want a passport. A passport is mandatory for everyone older than 13. Other databases are full of the trains and buses we take, there's one for which roads you take when driving and one containing your medical file. Oh and we appear on hundreds of CCTV tapes.
Now I ain't done anything wrong in my life, but the thought of all this information about everyone (not just me, but everyone) being stashed away somewhere scares me. Not so much that I don't trust my government, but they've shown in the past that the protection of their files is bad. The last thing I want is people I can't vote out of office knowing everything about everyone and acting on that knowledge.
Was the Nigerian kid really the son of a bank executive or did they make that shit up
No, that's for real. Father even alarmed international authorities when he ran off. Kid still managed to board a plane from Nigeria to Netherlands and then from Netherlands to America.
Was the Nigerian kid really the son of a bank executive or did they make that shit up
No, that's for real. Father even alarmed international authorities when he ran off. Kid still managed to board a plane from Nigeria to Netherlands and then from Netherlands to America.
Apparently the father is one of the big shots in Nigerian banking and his kid lived a life of luxury. And by Luxury I mean Luxury according to our exalted standards in that regard.
Kid was sympathetic, but not a part of the Nigerian version of the Taliban. Wich is apparently a rich boys club in Nigeria wanting a strict Theocracy.
Kipling217 on
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
Was the Nigerian kid really the son of a bank executive or did they make that shit up
No, that's for real. Father even alarmed international authorities when he ran off. Kid still managed to board a plane from Nigeria to Netherlands and then from Netherlands to America.
Unfortunately, the father started his email with: "Greetings, I am a wealthy Nigerian banker..." and it was immediately deleted.
Ahem.
TSA serves a purpose, but is currently a total joke. I think their plan to make air travel safer is to make it so inconvenient that no one will want to fly. That will drive airlines out of business. No air travel = safe air travel!
I liked the quote in an AP article a while back about how a job at Cinnabon is considered a promotion for a TSA checkpoint screener. Referring to the fact that the security guys at the ATL airport make significantly less than the guy at the cash register of the fast-food chain breakfast pastry kiosk where the security line starts.
Was the Nigerian kid really the son of a bank executive or did they make that shit up
No, that's for real. Father even alarmed international authorities when he ran off. Kid still managed to board a plane from Nigeria to Netherlands and then from Netherlands to America.
That the kid actually managed to get on a plane whilst displaying pretty much all the warning signs is pretty unbelievable. Hell he was even barred from entry into the UK.
So let's just do a strip search on you every time you go through the gate
Because no one has ever seen you naked, right?
Do you freak out at X-rays and MRIs in the hospital too? It's the same process... someone who doesn't know you or care about the 324th person in line sends you through the machine, the pictures are sent to someone who doesn't know you or care about the 5004th picture they've seen looks for tell-tale dark blobs on a light-blob person.
I seriously doubt the pictures say "JOSH SOANSO" with your name, address, and a button that says "Send to Josh's dating pool" next to it.
So let's just do a strip search on you every time you go through the gate
Because no one has ever seen you naked, right?
Do you freak out at X-rays and MRIs in the hospital too? It's the same process... someone who doesn't know you or care about the 324th person in line sends you through the machine, the pictures are sent to someone who doesn't know you or care about the 5004th picture they've seen looks for tell-tale dark blobs on a light-blob person.
I seriously doubt the pictures say "JOSH SOANSO" with your name, address, and a button that says "Send to Josh's dating pool" next to it.
I'm happy for you that you don't care about strangers seeing you naked. I have a different preference.
I love this attitude of, "Well, I don't mind this! Nobody else should mind it, either!"
I frankly (pun intended) don't give a shit whether somebody knows me or cares about me when they get a lovely image of my wedding tackle. If I have to go out of my way to keep that scenario from occurring, I will. I realize that my views differ from others.
The whole "naked" thing is kind of a distraction, though. My first post above was mostly intended to draw attention to the stupidity of the, "We are protecting your privacy by invading it" argument.
Just call it what it is. It's reduction of privacy for security purposes.
The TSA's issue is that it's entirely reactionary security by committee, and the primary focus is not being caught by the same attack twice (which would be political suicide). Hence why you see all these security policies being targeted at the prior attack and just adding layers to keep that exact attacker at bay.
The realities of the situation are that attacks need to be discovered and prevented before they ever get to their target, not in the airport security line. Any dumbass can damage an airplane or find some combination of things that will explode or at least cause havoc. I mean hell, how long till someone decides to just bomb the rather slow moving and tightly packed airport security line itself?
The TSA's job is pretty much running the no fly lists, training air marshals, and trying to do some basic baggage screening. Wanting anything more than that from them is just dooming them to failure.
That doesn't seem to be a very good way of doing things. Reactive security is dumb. We should have an agency that anticipates the next thing a terrorist will try instead of going, "Well, they did something new. Let's stop that from happening from now on!"
Like he said, it would be a political nightmare to have the same attack work twice so they will do everything they can to prevent at least that from happening.
The whole "naked" thing is kind of a distraction, though. My first post above was mostly intended to draw attention to the stupidity of the, "We are protecting your privacy by invading it" argument.
Just call it what it is. It's reduction of privacy for security purposes.
You're right. It's better to let terrorists sneak a bomb onto a plane than to have some dude stare at your balls for a few moments.
The whole "naked" thing is kind of a distraction, though. My first post above was mostly intended to draw attention to the stupidity of the, "We are protecting your privacy by invading it" argument.
Just call it what it is. It's reduction of privacy for security purposes.
You're right. It's better to let terrorists sneak a bomb onto a plane than to have some dude stare at your balls for a few moments.
If a terrorist rigs himself with exploding testicles I say he's earned hi martyrdom.
The whole "naked" thing is kind of a distraction, though. My first post above was mostly intended to draw attention to the stupidity of the, "We are protecting your privacy by invading it" argument.
Just call it what it is. It's reduction of privacy for security purposes.
You're right. It's better to let terrorists sneak a bomb onto a plane than to have some dude stare at your balls for a few moments.
If a terrorist rigs himself with exploding testicles I say he's earned hi martyrdom.
Wasn't there a suicide bomber somewhere this year who had a bomb shoved up his arse?
Posts
I think it's clear the guy was a failurroist.
i imagine it isn't always easy to determine the plane's altitude either
edit- i'm sure they were praying that allah would make the fire spread too
The last few flights of any scale I've been on have had ready access to that information. Some had live maps of the surroundings. This may be a case of 'not in the States!', of course.
Well, I'm not talking like he needed to have an altimeter and check a specific number before going boom boom, just something like look out the window and aim for when the plane is high and cruising in flight rather than on approach or right after take off. The only reason why I could see trying to depressurize the plane low to the ground is if you are trying to make it so the pilot doesn't have adequate time respond and prevent a potential crash.
It's relatively easy to find people in certain parts of the world who are willing to strap a bomb vest on and walk into a marketplace. It's a lot tougher to find smart, trained operatives who are willing and able to engage in a sophisticated suicide plot.
Rigorous Scholarship
3) Federal Air Marshals.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
http://www.tsa.gov/approach/mythbusters/fams_shortage.shtm
This was in response to news reports quoting anonymous airline-employee sources that they go months of flights without seeing any air marshalls. Duh, that's just because those people are on low-risk flights. According to the numbers fivethirtyeight.com was throwing around the other day, there are like 27,500 departures a day? If there were enough Air Marshalls to make a dent, everyone in the US would know one.
If your objective is to (A) kill a bunch of people on a plane OR (B) crash a plane into some building... wouldn't every flight be as good as the others? Planes these days are crowded no matter where you;re going, and if there's a crashable target in friggin Detroit, there's one in any city.
http://www.tsa.gov/approach/mythbusters/fams_shortage.shtm
Unknown, but according to the unintentionally hilarious TSA attempt to bust them myths, plenty.
Seeing the TSA reaction to this proves that the terrorists have won without killing anyone.
Currently painting: Slowly [flickr]
Do airport imagers invade privacy?
Hey, we're looking at your junk to protect your privacy! Don't you get it?
Rigorous Scholarship
Will the government protect me if I take the terrorist's own knife after he's been subdued and slit his throat?
So let's just do a strip search on you every time you go through the gate
Because no one has ever seen you naked, right?
This isn't exactly the same thing.
First of all, those scans are likely not going to be like super magical x-rays that go right through clothes and show all the skin underneath. Its probably going to be some black and white like thing where you can see shapes but you can't necessarily see stuff like tattoos or hair and stuff very well.
Second, there is a difference between a public strip search, and someone looking at images in some other room whom you never see, and they pretty much never see you or even give a shit. Looking at ugly naked bodies all day isn't exactly the best job in the world.
^ a thousand times this.
Another security measure that is very likely to work? Pilots are allowed to carry firearms and, if they do, go through extensive training in how to fight an attacker from a seated/belted/forward-facing starting position.
As for the TSA, I don't think it's any big secret that the point is to deter, not necessarily prevent. I don't know for sure, but I imagine if we just abandoned security altogether, there would be a significant number of disorganized idiot wannabe terrorists who would try to make their name. All the security stuff isn't necesasrily going to find a bomb, but it should give pause anyway to any but the most organized and/or determined terrorist.
My one concern with these security measures is that an agency somewhere ends up with a very big file full of information about me. We already have to give our fingerprints and special photos that show the biometrics of our faces when we want a passport. A passport is mandatory for everyone older than 13. Other databases are full of the trains and buses we take, there's one for which roads you take when driving and one containing your medical file. Oh and we appear on hundreds of CCTV tapes.
Now I ain't done anything wrong in my life, but the thought of all this information about everyone (not just me, but everyone) being stashed away somewhere scares me. Not so much that I don't trust my government, but they've shown in the past that the protection of their files is bad. The last thing I want is people I can't vote out of office knowing everything about everyone and acting on that knowledge.
Regardless of opinions on their security benefits/privacy concerns, the images are pretty disturbing
I wouldn't accept any amount of money to sit there and stare at what seems to be Slimer's flabby ass all day
Apparently the father is one of the big shots in Nigerian banking and his kid lived a life of luxury. And by Luxury I mean Luxury according to our exalted standards in that regard.
Kid was sympathetic, but not a part of the Nigerian version of the Taliban. Wich is apparently a rich boys club in Nigeria wanting a strict Theocracy.
Unfortunately, the father started his email with: "Greetings, I am a wealthy Nigerian banker..." and it was immediately deleted.
Ahem.
TSA serves a purpose, but is currently a total joke. I think their plan to make air travel safer is to make it so inconvenient that no one will want to fly. That will drive airlines out of business. No air travel = safe air travel!
That the kid actually managed to get on a plane whilst displaying pretty much all the warning signs is pretty unbelievable. Hell he was even barred from entry into the UK.
Do you freak out at X-rays and MRIs in the hospital too? It's the same process... someone who doesn't know you or care about the 324th person in line sends you through the machine, the pictures are sent to someone who doesn't know you or care about the 5004th picture they've seen looks for tell-tale dark blobs on a light-blob person.
I seriously doubt the pictures say "JOSH SOANSO" with your name, address, and a button that says "Send to Josh's dating pool" next to it.
I'm happy for you that you don't care about strangers seeing you naked. I have a different preference.
I love this attitude of, "Well, I don't mind this! Nobody else should mind it, either!"
I frankly (pun intended) don't give a shit whether somebody knows me or cares about me when they get a lovely image of my wedding tackle. If I have to go out of my way to keep that scenario from occurring, I will. I realize that my views differ from others.
Just call it what it is. It's reduction of privacy for security purposes.
The realities of the situation are that attacks need to be discovered and prevented before they ever get to their target, not in the airport security line. Any dumbass can damage an airplane or find some combination of things that will explode or at least cause havoc. I mean hell, how long till someone decides to just bomb the rather slow moving and tightly packed airport security line itself?
The TSA's job is pretty much running the no fly lists, training air marshals, and trying to do some basic baggage screening. Wanting anything more than that from them is just dooming them to failure.
You're right. It's better to let terrorists sneak a bomb onto a plane than to have some dude stare at your balls for a few moments.
Wasn't there a suicide bomber somewhere this year who had a bomb shoved up his arse?