However, 2D Boy's Carmel says that DRM is used not so much to thwart piracy -- since it's not very good at that -- as it is to combat the used game market.
"Publishers aren't stupid. They know that DRM doesn't work against piracy," he explains. "What they're trying to do is stop people from going to GameStop to buy $50 games for $35, none of which goes into the publishers' pockets. If DRM permits only a few installs, that minimizes the number of times a game can be resold."
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-Loki-Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
I think the best form of DRM was Batman: AA for the PC. They put out the game themselves in the torrent sites, and the game didn't allow you to use Batman's glide ability, effectively stopping you from being able to play after about 20 minutes into the game.
I thought that was very clever. Especially when people went onto the official forums asking how to fix the 'bug'. One of the devs responded with something like 'this isn't a problem with your game code, it's a problem with your moral code'.
I think the best form of DRM was Batman: AA for the PC. They put out the game themselves in the torrent sites, and the game didn't allow you to use Batman's glide ability, effectively stopping you from being able to play after about 20 minutes into the game.
I thought that was very clever. Especially when people went onto the official forums asking how to fix the 'bug'. One of the devs responded with something like 'this isn't a problem with your game code, it's a problem with your moral code'.
Hah, that's pretty ace.
They did similar with the Sims 3, leaking and seeding a cut down version of the game, enough to get people interested but nothing more.
However, 2D Boy's Carmel says that DRM is used not so much to thwart piracy -- since it's not very good at that -- as it is to combat the used game market.
"Publishers aren't stupid. They know that DRM doesn't work against piracy," he explains. "What they're trying to do is stop people from going to GameStop to buy $50 games for $35, none of which goes into the publishers' pockets. If DRM permits only a few installs, that minimizes the number of times a game can be resold."
Do any of the game stores sell used PC games anyway?
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-Loki-Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
However, 2D Boy's Carmel says that DRM is used not so much to thwart piracy -- since it's not very good at that -- as it is to combat the used game market.
"Publishers aren't stupid. They know that DRM doesn't work against piracy," he explains. "What they're trying to do is stop people from going to GameStop to buy $50 games for $35, none of which goes into the publishers' pockets. If DRM permits only a few installs, that minimizes the number of times a game can be resold."
Do any of the game stores sell used PC games anyway?
Exactly what I was thinking. Hell, I don't think anyone rents them anymore either.
However, 2D Boy's Carmel says that DRM is used not so much to thwart piracy -- since it's not very good at that -- as it is to combat the used game market.
"Publishers aren't stupid. They know that DRM doesn't work against piracy," he explains. "What they're trying to do is stop people from going to GameStop to buy $50 games for $35, none of which goes into the publishers' pockets. If DRM permits only a few installs, that minimizes the number of times a game can be resold."
Do any of the game stores sell used PC games anyway?
Exactly what I was thinking. Hell, I don't think anyone rents them anymore either.
I think the best form of DRM was Batman: AA for the PC. They put out the game themselves in the torrent sites, and the game didn't allow you to use Batman's glide ability, effectively stopping you from being able to play after about 20 minutes into the game.
I thought that was very clever. Especially when people went onto the official forums asking how to fix the 'bug'. One of the devs responded with something like 'this isn't a problem with your game code, it's a problem with your moral code'.
Hah, that's pretty ace.
They did similar with the Sims 3, leaking and seeding a cut down version of the game, enough to get people interested but nothing more.
Wasn't that guy asking how to fix the game before it was even released?
However, 2D Boy's Carmel says that DRM is used not so much to thwart piracy -- since it's not very good at that -- as it is to combat the used game market.
"Publishers aren't stupid. They know that DRM doesn't work against piracy," he explains. "What they're trying to do is stop people from going to GameStop to buy $50 games for $35, none of which goes into the publishers' pockets. If DRM permits only a few installs, that minimizes the number of times a game can be resold."
Do any of the game stores sell used PC games anyway?
I seem to remember Gamestop/EBGames/Software Etc/Babbages/Whatever selling used PC games in the before time, long long ago. Goozex has PC games on it too, I think. Don't know if most stores stopped because of the DRM or if it's because people just weren't buying the used PC stuff.
However, 2D Boy's Carmel says that DRM is used not so much to thwart piracy -- since it's not very good at that -- as it is to combat the used game market.
"Publishers aren't stupid. They know that DRM doesn't work against piracy," he explains. "What they're trying to do is stop people from going to GameStop to buy $50 games for $35, none of which goes into the publishers' pockets. If DRM permits only a few installs, that minimizes the number of times a game can be resold."
Do any of the game stores sell used PC games anyway?
I don't know about your area, but my local used games stores do. Maybe it's just a UK thing, who knows.
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-Loki-Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
However, 2D Boy's Carmel says that DRM is used not so much to thwart piracy -- since it's not very good at that -- as it is to combat the used game market.
"Publishers aren't stupid. They know that DRM doesn't work against piracy," he explains. "What they're trying to do is stop people from going to GameStop to buy $50 games for $35, none of which goes into the publishers' pockets. If DRM permits only a few installs, that minimizes the number of times a game can be resold."
Do any of the game stores sell used PC games anyway?
Exactly what I was thinking. Hell, I don't think anyone rents them anymore either.
When did they ever rent PC games?
Some video stores in Australia did when game renting got popular. It stopped after a few months though, when they realized what was happening.
I've heard of pirated copies of games "degrading" in gameplay or performance for years. Can't think of any specific examples, but the idea isn't very new.
One problem is that people who download pirated copies are at least marginally more knowledgeable and competent than your average PC-user. Sometimes significantly so. Pulling the wool over their eyes isn't easy, and playing tricks on the torrenters typically just emboldens them further.
Getting a parking or traffic ticket doesn't make me think I'm a slapdick for what is technically breaking the law. It makes me despise my local authorities for wasting my time and money. I'm pretty sure calling out pirates has a similar effect, and piracy for better or worse probably occupies a similar place on the sliding moral scale as parking tickets and jaywalking.
Problem with used PC games sections in high street shops is that they are usually filled with "Pass your driving test" type stuff and are usually in the back and unkept.
I think most people who regularly use a PC for gaming have switched to digital distribution and/or tend to keep physical copies of the games they buy.
However, 2D Boy's Carmel says that DRM is used not so much to thwart piracy -- since it's not very good at that -- as it is to combat the used game market.
"Publishers aren't stupid. They know that DRM doesn't work against piracy," he explains. "What they're trying to do is stop people from going to GameStop to buy $50 games for $35, none of which goes into the publishers' pockets. If DRM permits only a few installs, that minimizes the number of times a game can be resold."
Do any of the game stores sell used PC games anyway?
Exactly what I was thinking. Hell, I don't think anyone rents them anymore either.
They're not unheard of. We've got an excellent used game store near where I live, and they deal mainly in PC games. It's a local operation, but it's fantastic - from a consumer perspective - because their used game prices are actually realistic. They don't pull the Gamestop absurdity where they buy a game for $3 and sell it for $45.
That being said, I appreciate the store because it's gotten me some awesome deals (UT3 for $5 - I'm glad I didn't buy it for $50 after playing it), but I can appreciate the damage it does to developers.
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AxenMy avatar is Excalibur.Yes, the sword.Registered Userregular
edited January 2010
Operation Flashpoint I believe had the "degrading" performance deal. I think ArmA and maybe ArmA 2 did as well.
Also in regards to the quote I quoted, you're right. Heh, never actually thought about it myself. However in that same interview or another one (I can't remember) he basically says the only people who benefit from DRM are the people who sell DRM.
Axen on
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Operation Flashpoint I believe had the "degrading" performance deal. I think ArmA and maybe ArmA 2 did as well.
Also in regards to the quote I quoted, you're right. Heh, never actually thought about it myself. However in that same interview or another one (I can't remember) he basically says the only people who benefit from DRM are the people who sell DRM.
That was actually the TARGES DRM, the same as The Witcher did
Ubisoft's PC division seems to be good at picking shitty DRM too. I have the collectors edition of Chaos Theory, and I won't be able to play it if I ever upgrade to a 64-bit Windows
Operation Flashpoint I believe had the "degrading" performance deal. I think ArmA and maybe ArmA 2 did as well.
Also in regards to the quote I quoted, you're right. Heh, never actually thought about it myself. However in that same interview or another one (I can't remember) he basically says the only people who benefit from DRM are the people who sell DRM.
That was actually the TARGES DRM, the same as The Witcher did
Ubisoft's PC division seems to be good at picking shitty DRM too. I have the collectors edition of Chaos Theory, and I won't be able to play it if I ever upgrade to a 64-bit Windows
I bought the Prince of Persia triple pack. I had to get The Two Thrones again on Steam because the disc based version used Starforce, which is so bad that Vista actually blocked it after identifying it as malware.
Operation Flashpoint I believe had the "degrading" performance deal. I think ArmA and maybe ArmA 2 did as well.
Also in regards to the quote I quoted, you're right. Heh, never actually thought about it myself. However in that same interview or another one (I can't remember) he basically says the only people who benefit from DRM are the people who sell DRM.
That was actually the TARGES DRM, the same as The Witcher did
Ubisoft's PC division seems to be good at picking shitty DRM too. I have the collectors edition of Chaos Theory, and I won't be able to play it if I ever upgrade to a 64-bit Windows
I bought the Prince of Persia triple pack. I had to get The Two Thrones again on Steam because the disc based version used Starforce, which is so bad that Vista actually blocked it after identifying it as malware.
Yeah, Ubisoft know a thing or two about DRM.
If you're on 32-bit Vista, you have to download the Starforce updater. Two games that I'll have to keep old computers around for, or use no-Cd cracks on, all because they like shit DRM
I just don't get DRM from the publishers point of view as a strategic approach to deterring piracy. Now not only is the pirated version cheaper than purchasing but it's also simpler and just generally better all around.
Good strategy that, punishing your paying customers. I predict it'll work well.
There's something to be said about this in terms making PC games unappealing for the purpose of boosting console sales. Over on the 2K forums someone was talking about a phone call they made to customer support regarding their implementation of GFWL on BioShock 2. Apparently the answer he was given was 'Buy a console and you won't have these problems'.
Combined with the 'delay' release of the PC version of Borderlands, and I wonder if 2K isn't trying to bolster their console-based sales over the PC versions. And I don't care what anyone says about that delay for Borderlands - There was no way any additional optimization done during that period of time.
In the past 24 hours alone in dealing with 2K, I have received partial answers, contradictions and from phone support, flat out refusal to discuss BioShock 2 as well as derogatory remarks made about PC gaming and the suggestion to just "Move to console if you don't like DRM" from one support representative who pretty much trashed the last shred of faith I had in 2K.
I wouldn't put to much stock in it. Phone support is generally uninformed, occasionally impolite, bordering on awful at just about any company - especially to repeat callers asking the same questions over and over. The caller will scan the ticket history, see they're a whiny sod, and lose interest. If anyone said go buy a console, it wasn't an authorized communication.
As for it being a ploy to sell more consoles, you are wandering into babbling incoherently while wearing a tinfoil hat territory. Publishing companies don't need these tactics to sell more copies. Many pc games are held back for legitimate reasons (including back porting drm, adding high res textures, testing, extra features, etc...)
EA is pretty on track with the "free DLC" thing instead of activation limits. This way, instead of screwing people over, you reward people for buying new, and get some residual income for buying the DLC if you buy a used version. And the cost, let's face it, is minimal. And unless you are a Silly Goose and screw up your servers on launch week, you don't inconvenience your players much (face it, it feels better logging in/typing in some keycode to get loots then it does to show you are not a thief.)
Stopping pirates is impossible, but slowing them down can be profitable. But only a few games manage that. The biggest AAA title to do so lately, in my memory, is GTA IV, with it's (hilarious) "drunken camera" bug, which made the game playable at first but progessively impossible as you went on. Batman: AA had a similar system where a key function didn't work (glide), but that got fixed a lot faster. Titan Quest gets the FAIL award for making cracked versions crash on purpose, which quickly boosted widespread tales of it being a buggy piece of shit.
Also, I hadn't heard about the $60 thing for AC2. I'm not happy about the copyright, but I'm definitely not supporting that. I had a passing interest in the game too, ah well.
Speaking only for myself, I spent years avoiding Steam because I didn't like the idea of all of my games being hostage to the whims of a single - admittedly, seemingly benevolent - company.
I finally justified it to myself by saying that, if Steam ever decided to become evil in a way that affected me, it would also be affecting hordes and hordes of other people, who would find workarounds and whose work I could then profit from, so nothing Steam did could ever REALLY cause me that much trouble.
I call it "outsourcing outrage", and it lets me be a lot less stressed.
This new Ubisoft thing? Yeah, it's dumb, but I'm guessing that I'll still be able to play their games, and if they decide to take down their servers in a few years, someone out there more technically competent than me, and with more free time, will figure out a workaround that I'll be able to use to play again.
Speaking only for myself, I spent years avoiding Steam because I didn't like the idea of all of my games being hostage to the whims of a single - admittedly, seemingly benevolent - company.
I finally justified it to myself by saying that, if Steam ever decided to become evil in a way that affected me, it would also be affecting hordes and hordes of other people, who would find workarounds and whose work I could then profit from, so nothing Steam did could ever REALLY cause me that much trouble.
I call it "outsourcing outrage", and it lets me be a lot less stressed.
This new Ubisoft thing? Yeah, it's dumb, but I'm guessing that I'll still be able to play their games, and if they decide to take down their servers in a few years, someone out there more technically competent than me, and with more free time, will figure out a workaround that I'll be able to use to play again.
We've just received Assassin's Creed 2 and Settlers VII for review, and verified with Ubisoft that the DRM is the same as the boxed product. If you get disconnected while playing, you're booted out of the game. All your progress since the last checkpoint or savegame is lost, and your only options are to quit to Windows or wait until you're reconnected.
The game first starts the Ubisoft Game Launcher, which checks for updates. If you try to launch the game when you're not online, you hit an error message right away. So I tried a different test: start the game while online, play a little, then unplug my net cable. This is the same as what happens if your net connection drops momentarily, your router is rebooted, or the game loses its connection to Ubisoft's 'Master servers'. The game stopped, and I was dumped back to a menu screen - all my progress since it last autosaved was lost.
Yeah... I'm not buying this game. God damnit, Ubisoft.
We've just received Assassin's Creed 2 and Settlers VII for review, and verified with Ubisoft that the DRM is the same as the boxed product. If you get disconnected while playing, you're booted out of the game. All your progress since the last checkpoint or savegame is lost, and your only options are to quit to Windows or wait until you're reconnected.
The game first starts the Ubisoft Game Launcher, which checks for updates. If you try to launch the game when you're not online, you hit an error message right away. So I tried a different test: start the game while online, play a little, then unplug my net cable. This is the same as what happens if your net connection drops momentarily, your router is rebooted, or the game loses its connection to Ubisoft's 'Master servers'. The game stopped, and I was dumped back to a menu screen - all my progress since it last autosaved was lost.
Yeah... I'm not buying this game. God damnit, Ubisoft.
Well that is certainly fucktarded. Hopefully the box comes with a warning: "Save time and space and just send us $50 directly. You won't be able to play this game anyway."
Kinda reminds me of Haze. Me and my brother were playing some splitscreen coop when twice we got a message that the connection was lost and we got booted out to the main menu. Coincidence that it was also an Ubisoft game?
So how exactly do you think they'll crack something that requires an internet connection?
This is the disadvantage (for publishers) of PCs over consoles, they can run what amounts to unsigned code. You can't open up a binary file on a 360 disc, change it, burn it back and play it (even if you have modded drive firmware) because you've broken the encryption. That's built in to the 360/ps3, not the actual game. The hardware is locked down, PCs by their very nature just aren't.
They could (it'd be a bit more complicated but to keep it simple) just trawl through, see what data it requests, see what data it gets back and spoof it. They could potentially remove the checks completely.
I was a dirty pirate through the Amiga age, and then in to the original Xbox era. I found myself getting games just to play them for 30minutes and then move on to the next thing I'd downloaded. It dawned on me that I didn't actually enjoy games anymore, I just played them to see what they were like. That's when I quit with the pirating.
And that's the thing, the vast majority of people who pirate Ubisoft's games WON'T really enjoy them, they won't play them to completion because they won't want to get their "Money's worth". And the people who genuinally WANT the game, enough to part with their hard earned cash, will be punished for doing so.
If publishers opened things up a bit then sure, they'd find piracy didn't go down, but i imagine it wouldn't go up much either and the genuine customer would win in the end. I mean I buy all my Wii games, they're sat in a lovely organised pile near my tv, but I've got them running off a USB harddrive through a really NICE looking loader. If that was offered to every consumer, the ability to copy a game to a harddrive you'd plugged in, people would find it useful. As it is it's an option mainly reserved for pirates.
I think I lost my train of thought there somewhere...
And that's the thing, the vast majority of people who pirate Ubisoft's games WON'T really enjoy them, they won't play them to completion because they won't want to get their "Money's worth".
This is so true. When you buy a game, you have a sort of emotional investment in it being good, which keeps you playing through startup levels and tutorials and gets you invested in the game enough to really enjoy it. You tend to devalue anything that you didn't pay for subconsciously.
Pirates always whine that all games are shit, and seem way angrier and more cynical about gaming than people who actually buy stuff.
And that's the thing, the vast majority of people who pirate Ubisoft's games WON'T really enjoy them, they won't play them to completion because they won't want to get their "Money's worth".
This is so true. When you buy a game, you have a sort of emotional investment in it being good, which keeps you playing through startup levels and tutorials and gets you invested in the game enough to really enjoy it. You tend to devalue anything that you didn't pay for subconsciously.
Pirates always whine that all games are shit, and seem way angrier and more cynical about gaming than people who actually buy stuff.
I can agree with that. All the pirates I've seen it's the same pattern. They've got tonnes of burned CD's amounting to an entire library of games, but they've played almost none of them, and those that they have played they only did for a short time before deciding "it's crap" and tossing it away.
It's not just about the emotional investment of having paid for the product though. It's also the over-abundance of content. They've simply got SO MUCH stuff to sift through that anything that they consider to be less than absolutely perfect gets tossed out the window. Multiplayer games are out of the question too, so it's not like they can often play with anyone else.
This is a bit more conjecture, but I'd say this is also partly a burnout issue. Over-abundance of content means they're constantly exposed to the latest hyped releases and never get any downtime from it. If you don't have a break every now and then the constant exposure is going to leave most everything tasting like Styrofoam.
Personally, even having paid for the game I'm sometimes willing to abandon it if the opening is particularly bad and I feel the rest is going to be the same. My time is also an investment and I don't need to spend it struggling through crap to "try" to find some fun. But then if you haven't got access to what amounts to every other hot release of the moment, then yeah, it's not like you'll be dumping games on a whim. You're willing to give games more of a chance.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited February 2010
I would have zero problem with this DRM method if broadband internet was a staple common household thing like electricity.
So how exactly do you think they'll crack something that requires an internet connection?
The only way I can think of is that the game goes to some Ubisoft server, gets a validation key, and then sends it back to the game allowing playtime. The crack could possibly send a "validation" key to the game allowing it to play. But what if the key is uniquely tied to the game to allow the game to accept said key?
I think the best form of DRM was Batman: AA for the PC. They put out the game themselves in the torrent sites, and the game didn't allow you to use Batman's glide ability, effectively stopping you from being able to play after about 20 minutes into the game.
The new, interesting way would be to run a reverse-engineered version of the Ubisoft activation server on your own computer, and redirect (using your hostsfile or something) any requests to Ubi's servers to your own machine.
The old-fashioned way (which the pirates will probably use; they like things "proper") would be to remove the validation checks from the executable entirely. Fundamentally, game DRM works like this:
with varying degrees of sophistication in checking if the game is real and hiding where that check is. Disassembling the executable and removing the check entirely is what these people do all the time; changing how the check works won't do shit.
However, 2D Boy's Carmel says that DRM is used not so much to thwart piracy -- since it's not very good at that -- as it is to combat the used game market.
"Publishers aren't stupid. They know that DRM doesn't work against piracy," he explains. "What they're trying to do is stop people from going to GameStop to buy $50 games for $35, none of which goes into the publishers' pockets. If DRM permits only a few installs, that minimizes the number of times a game can be resold."
Do any of the game stores sell used PC games anyway?
Exactly what I was thinking. Hell, I don't think anyone rents them anymore either.
They're not unheard of. We've got an excellent used game store near where I live, and they deal mainly in PC games. It's a local operation, but it's fantastic - from a consumer perspective - because their used game prices are actually realistic. They don't pull the Gamestop absurdity where they buy a game for $3 and sell it for $45.
That being said, I appreciate the store because it's gotten me some awesome deals (UT3 for $5 - I'm glad I didn't buy it for $50 after playing it), but I can appreciate the damage it does to developers.
Anyone else find the games industry a bit full of itself? Every other industry whether it's books, cars, computer hardware etc. There is zero problem with a used market, but the software market has this really self-entitled opinion about used games that somehow they're being ripped off. To me it shows the level of their immaturity.
It's so petty, if someone wants to sell their property that's up to them.
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---
I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
However, 2D Boy's Carmel says that DRM is used not so much to thwart piracy -- since it's not very good at that -- as it is to combat the used game market.
"Publishers aren't stupid. They know that DRM doesn't work against piracy," he explains. "What they're trying to do is stop people from going to GameStop to buy $50 games for $35, none of which goes into the publishers' pockets. If DRM permits only a few installs, that minimizes the number of times a game can be resold."
Do any of the game stores sell used PC games anyway?
Exactly what I was thinking. Hell, I don't think anyone rents them anymore either.
They're not unheard of. We've got an excellent used game store near where I live, and they deal mainly in PC games. It's a local operation, but it's fantastic - from a consumer perspective - because their used game prices are actually realistic. They don't pull the Gamestop absurdity where they buy a game for $3 and sell it for $45.
That being said, I appreciate the store because it's gotten me some awesome deals (UT3 for $5 - I'm glad I didn't buy it for $50 after playing it), but I can appreciate the damage it does to developers.
Anyone else find the games industry a bit full of itself? Every other industry whether it's books, cars, computer hardware etc. There is zero problem with a used market, but the software market has this really self-entitled opinion about used games that somehow they're being ripped off. To me it shows the level of their immaturity.
It's so petty, if someone wants to sell their property that's up to them.
This is also pretty much the whole reason behind things like the one-time usage "free" DLC that's coming with games right out of the box. Even console games are getting that, and for them it's not a method of combating piracy, it's a method of combating the second-hand market. Both of which publishers view as largely similar problems (making sure that the person playing is the one that paid YOU, and not somebody else).
The new SOCOM games on the PSP does this. It's mainly an online game, and in order to use the online component you need to register a code that comes with the game. Anyone picking it up second-hand would need to pay $20 to the PSN store in order to pick up a new code and be allowed online.
However, 2D Boy's Carmel says that DRM is used not so much to thwart piracy -- since it's not very good at that -- as it is to combat the used game market.
"Publishers aren't stupid. They know that DRM doesn't work against piracy," he explains. "What they're trying to do is stop people from going to GameStop to buy $50 games for $35, none of which goes into the publishers' pockets. If DRM permits only a few installs, that minimizes the number of times a game can be resold."
Do any of the game stores sell used PC games anyway?
Exactly what I was thinking. Hell, I don't think anyone rents them anymore either.
They're not unheard of. We've got an excellent used game store near where I live, and they deal mainly in PC games. It's a local operation, but it's fantastic - from a consumer perspective - because their used game prices are actually realistic. They don't pull the Gamestop absurdity where they buy a game for $3 and sell it for $45.
That being said, I appreciate the store because it's gotten me some awesome deals (UT3 for $5 - I'm glad I didn't buy it for $50 after playing it), but I can appreciate the damage it does to developers.
Anyone else find the games industry a bit full of itself? Every other industry whether it's books, cars, computer hardware etc. There is zero problem with a used market, but the software market has this really self-entitled opinion about used games that somehow they're being ripped off. To me it shows the level of their immaturity.
It's so petty, if someone wants to sell their property that's up to them.
This is also pretty much the whole reason behind things like the one-time usage "free" DLC that's coming with games right out of the box. Even console games are getting that, and for them it's not a method of combating piracy, it's a method of combating the second-hand market. Both of which publishers view as largely similar problems (making sure that the person playing is the one that paid YOU, and not somebody else).
The new SOCOM games on the PSP does this. It's mainly an online game, and in order to use the online component you need to register a code that comes with the game. Anyone picking it up second-hand would need to pay $20 to the PSN store in order to pick up a new code and be allowed online.
At least they sell it. Forza 3 had a packin DLC code that you can only get in a new copy.
However, 2D Boy's Carmel says that DRM is used not so much to thwart piracy -- since it's not very good at that -- as it is to combat the used game market.
"Publishers aren't stupid. They know that DRM doesn't work against piracy," he explains. "What they're trying to do is stop people from going to GameStop to buy $50 games for $35, none of which goes into the publishers' pockets. If DRM permits only a few installs, that minimizes the number of times a game can be resold."
Do any of the game stores sell used PC games anyway?
Exactly what I was thinking. Hell, I don't think anyone rents them anymore either.
They're not unheard of. We've got an excellent used game store near where I live, and they deal mainly in PC games. It's a local operation, but it's fantastic - from a consumer perspective - because their used game prices are actually realistic. They don't pull the Gamestop absurdity where they buy a game for $3 and sell it for $45.
That being said, I appreciate the store because it's gotten me some awesome deals (UT3 for $5 - I'm glad I didn't buy it for $50 after playing it), but I can appreciate the damage it does to developers.
Anyone else find the games industry a bit full of itself? Every other industry whether it's books, cars, computer hardware etc. There is zero problem with a used market, but the software market has this really self-entitled opinion about used games that somehow they're being ripped off. To me it shows the level of their immaturity.
It's so petty, if someone wants to sell their property that's up to them.
This is also pretty much the whole reason behind things like the one-time usage "free" DLC that's coming with games right out of the box. Even console games are getting that, and for them it's not a method of combating piracy, it's a method of combating the second-hand market. Both of which publishers view as largely similar problems (making sure that the person playing is the one that paid YOU, and not somebody else).
The new SOCOM games on the PSP does this. It's mainly an online game, and in order to use the online component you need to register a code that comes with the game. Anyone picking it up second-hand would need to pay $20 to the PSN store in order to pick up a new code and be allowed online.
At least they sell it. Forza 3 had a packin DLC code that you can only get in a new copy.
Also, I'd like to add as a slice of irony I bought AC2 for the PS3 about a month ago used.
Only in the last couple of weeks have I been playing it, ME2 and Beatles Rock Band interrupted my AC2 game.
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I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
However, 2D Boy's Carmel says that DRM is used not so much to thwart piracy -- since it's not very good at that -- as it is to combat the used game market.
"Publishers aren't stupid. They know that DRM doesn't work against piracy," he explains. "What they're trying to do is stop people from going to GameStop to buy $50 games for $35, none of which goes into the publishers' pockets. If DRM permits only a few installs, that minimizes the number of times a game can be resold."
Do any of the game stores sell used PC games anyway?
Exactly what I was thinking. Hell, I don't think anyone rents them anymore either.
They're not unheard of. We've got an excellent used game store near where I live, and they deal mainly in PC games. It's a local operation, but it's fantastic - from a consumer perspective - because their used game prices are actually realistic. They don't pull the Gamestop absurdity where they buy a game for $3 and sell it for $45.
That being said, I appreciate the store because it's gotten me some awesome deals (UT3 for $5 - I'm glad I didn't buy it for $50 after playing it), but I can appreciate the damage it does to developers.
Anyone else find the games industry a bit full of itself? Every other industry whether it's books, cars, computer hardware etc. There is zero problem with a used market, but the software market has this really self-entitled opinion about used games that somehow they're being ripped off. To me it shows the level of their immaturity.
It's so petty, if someone wants to sell their property that's up to them.
This is also pretty much the whole reason behind things like the one-time usage "free" DLC that's coming with games right out of the box. Even console games are getting that, and for them it's not a method of combating piracy, it's a method of combating the second-hand market. Both of which publishers view as largely similar problems (making sure that the person playing is the one that paid YOU, and not somebody else).
The new SOCOM games on the PSP does this. It's mainly an online game, and in order to use the online component you need to register a code that comes with the game. Anyone picking it up second-hand would need to pay $20 to the PSN store in order to pick up a new code and be allowed online.
At least they sell it. Forza 3 had a packin DLC code that you can only get in a new copy.
Also, I'd like to add as a slice of irony I bought AC2 for the PS3 about a month ago used.
I would have zero problem with this DRM method if broadband internet was a staple common household thing like electricity.
I have 100% problem with this because six months out of the year I'm without (personal) interwebs.
(Well, if I was on a ship I would be. I'm on shore duty right meow.)
... you enlisted anyway, you'd be a special case no matter what. :P
But anyway, it internet connectivity was widespread and available anywhere, this wouldn't be a problem because you'd be connected to the internet anyhow (which is the point I was getting at with my post).
I would have zero problem with this DRM method if broadband internet was a staple common household thing like electricity.
I have 100% problem with this because six months out of the year I'm without (personal) interwebs.
(Well, if I was on a ship I would be. I'm on shore duty right meow.)
... you enlisted anyway, you'd be a special case no matter what. :P
But anyway, it internet connectivity was widespread and available anywhere, this wouldn't be a problem because you'd be connected to the internet anyhow (which is the point I was getting at with my post).
Who's connection is honestly that solid that it remains up and running at all times? My router just messed up the other night and now won't hold a wireless connection, I'm getting a new one soon. So in this instance I wouldn't be able to play AC2 on my pc.
In one of the reviews someone mentioned that Ubisoft's servers dropped when they were playing the game, they got booted out. Now imagine 10,000 people are playing the game at that point, 10,000 people get booted out at the same time!
It's not just access to the internet, it's reliable, solid, no glitches connection to the internet that's required. And then you have to hope the ubisoft servers are having a good day.
Posts
Interesting bit:
I thought that was very clever. Especially when people went onto the official forums asking how to fix the 'bug'. One of the devs responded with something like 'this isn't a problem with your game code, it's a problem with your moral code'.
Hah, that's pretty ace.
They did similar with the Sims 3, leaking and seeding a cut down version of the game, enough to get people interested but nothing more.
Do any of the game stores sell used PC games anyway?
Exactly what I was thinking. Hell, I don't think anyone rents them anymore either.
When did they ever rent PC games?
Wasn't that guy asking how to fix the game before it was even released?
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I seem to remember Gamestop/EBGames/Software Etc/Babbages/Whatever selling used PC games in the before time, long long ago. Goozex has PC games on it too, I think. Don't know if most stores stopped because of the DRM or if it's because people just weren't buying the used PC stuff.
I don't know about your area, but my local used games stores do. Maybe it's just a UK thing, who knows.
Some video stores in Australia did when game renting got popular. It stopped after a few months though, when they realized what was happening.
One problem is that people who download pirated copies are at least marginally more knowledgeable and competent than your average PC-user. Sometimes significantly so. Pulling the wool over their eyes isn't easy, and playing tricks on the torrenters typically just emboldens them further.
Getting a parking or traffic ticket doesn't make me think I'm a slapdick for what is technically breaking the law. It makes me despise my local authorities for wasting my time and money. I'm pretty sure calling out pirates has a similar effect, and piracy for better or worse probably occupies a similar place on the sliding moral scale as parking tickets and jaywalking.
I think most people who regularly use a PC for gaming have switched to digital distribution and/or tend to keep physical copies of the games they buy.
They're not unheard of. We've got an excellent used game store near where I live, and they deal mainly in PC games. It's a local operation, but it's fantastic - from a consumer perspective - because their used game prices are actually realistic. They don't pull the Gamestop absurdity where they buy a game for $3 and sell it for $45.
That being said, I appreciate the store because it's gotten me some awesome deals (UT3 for $5 - I'm glad I didn't buy it for $50 after playing it), but I can appreciate the damage it does to developers.
Also in regards to the quote I quoted, you're right. Heh, never actually thought about it myself. However in that same interview or another one (I can't remember) he basically says the only people who benefit from DRM are the people who sell DRM.
i'm certainly not buying any Ubisoft games in the future, PC or otherwise. that's some terrible shit.
That was actually the TARGES DRM, the same as The Witcher did
Ubisoft's PC division seems to be good at picking shitty DRM too. I have the collectors edition of Chaos Theory, and I won't be able to play it if I ever upgrade to a 64-bit Windows
I bought the Prince of Persia triple pack. I had to get The Two Thrones again on Steam because the disc based version used Starforce, which is so bad that Vista actually blocked it after identifying it as malware.
Yeah, Ubisoft know a thing or two about DRM.
If you're on 32-bit Vista, you have to download the Starforce updater. Two games that I'll have to keep old computers around for, or use no-Cd cracks on, all because they like shit DRM
I wouldn't put to much stock in it. Phone support is generally uninformed, occasionally impolite, bordering on awful at just about any company - especially to repeat callers asking the same questions over and over. The caller will scan the ticket history, see they're a whiny sod, and lose interest. If anyone said go buy a console, it wasn't an authorized communication.
As for it being a ploy to sell more consoles, you are wandering into babbling incoherently while wearing a tinfoil hat territory. Publishing companies don't need these tactics to sell more copies. Many pc games are held back for legitimate reasons (including back porting drm, adding high res textures, testing, extra features, etc...)
Stopping pirates is impossible, but slowing them down can be profitable. But only a few games manage that. The biggest AAA title to do so lately, in my memory, is GTA IV, with it's (hilarious) "drunken camera" bug, which made the game playable at first but progessively impossible as you went on. Batman: AA had a similar system where a key function didn't work (glide), but that got fixed a lot faster. Titan Quest gets the FAIL award for making cracked versions crash on purpose, which quickly boosted widespread tales of it being a buggy piece of shit.
Also, I hadn't heard about the $60 thing for AC2. I'm not happy about the copyright, but I'm definitely not supporting that. I had a passing interest in the game too, ah well.
I finally justified it to myself by saying that, if Steam ever decided to become evil in a way that affected me, it would also be affecting hordes and hordes of other people, who would find workarounds and whose work I could then profit from, so nothing Steam did could ever REALLY cause me that much trouble.
I call it "outsourcing outrage", and it lets me be a lot less stressed.
This new Ubisoft thing? Yeah, it's dumb, but I'm guessing that I'll still be able to play their games, and if they decide to take down their servers in a few years, someone out there more technically competent than me, and with more free time, will figure out a workaround that I'll be able to use to play again.
I like the cut of your jib.
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=235290&site=pcg
Yeah... I'm not buying this game. God damnit, Ubisoft.
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Well that is certainly fucktarded. Hopefully the box comes with a warning: "Save time and space and just send us $50 directly. You won't be able to play this game anyway."
Kinda reminds me of Haze. Me and my brother were playing some splitscreen coop when twice we got a message that the connection was lost and we got booted out to the main menu. Coincidence that it was also an Ubisoft game?
PC Gaming isn't dead. It isn't even dying.
It is being stabbed to death by the very people who derive the most benefit from it.
This is making me angry.
I am angry that I care enough for this to make me angry.
ARGH
This is the disadvantage (for publishers) of PCs over consoles, they can run what amounts to unsigned code. You can't open up a binary file on a 360 disc, change it, burn it back and play it (even if you have modded drive firmware) because you've broken the encryption. That's built in to the 360/ps3, not the actual game. The hardware is locked down, PCs by their very nature just aren't.
They could (it'd be a bit more complicated but to keep it simple) just trawl through, see what data it requests, see what data it gets back and spoof it. They could potentially remove the checks completely.
I was a dirty pirate through the Amiga age, and then in to the original Xbox era. I found myself getting games just to play them for 30minutes and then move on to the next thing I'd downloaded. It dawned on me that I didn't actually enjoy games anymore, I just played them to see what they were like. That's when I quit with the pirating.
And that's the thing, the vast majority of people who pirate Ubisoft's games WON'T really enjoy them, they won't play them to completion because they won't want to get their "Money's worth". And the people who genuinally WANT the game, enough to part with their hard earned cash, will be punished for doing so.
If publishers opened things up a bit then sure, they'd find piracy didn't go down, but i imagine it wouldn't go up much either and the genuine customer would win in the end. I mean I buy all my Wii games, they're sat in a lovely organised pile near my tv, but I've got them running off a USB harddrive through a really NICE looking loader. If that was offered to every consumer, the ability to copy a game to a harddrive you'd plugged in, people would find it useful. As it is it's an option mainly reserved for pirates.
I think I lost my train of thought there somewhere...
PSN: SirGrinchX
Oculus Rift: Sir_Grinch
This is so true. When you buy a game, you have a sort of emotional investment in it being good, which keeps you playing through startup levels and tutorials and gets you invested in the game enough to really enjoy it. You tend to devalue anything that you didn't pay for subconsciously.
Pirates always whine that all games are shit, and seem way angrier and more cynical about gaming than people who actually buy stuff.
I can agree with that. All the pirates I've seen it's the same pattern. They've got tonnes of burned CD's amounting to an entire library of games, but they've played almost none of them, and those that they have played they only did for a short time before deciding "it's crap" and tossing it away.
It's not just about the emotional investment of having paid for the product though. It's also the over-abundance of content. They've simply got SO MUCH stuff to sift through that anything that they consider to be less than absolutely perfect gets tossed out the window. Multiplayer games are out of the question too, so it's not like they can often play with anyone else.
This is a bit more conjecture, but I'd say this is also partly a burnout issue. Over-abundance of content means they're constantly exposed to the latest hyped releases and never get any downtime from it. If you don't have a break every now and then the constant exposure is going to leave most everything tasting like Styrofoam.
Personally, even having paid for the game I'm sometimes willing to abandon it if the opening is particularly bad and I feel the rest is going to be the same. My time is also an investment and I don't need to spend it struggling through crap to "try" to find some fun. But then if you haven't got access to what amounts to every other hot release of the moment, then yeah, it's not like you'll be dumping games on a whim. You're willing to give games more of a chance.
The new, interesting way would be to run a reverse-engineered version of the Ubisoft activation server on your own computer, and redirect (using your hostsfile or something) any requests to Ubi's servers to your own machine.
The old-fashioned way (which the pirates will probably use; they like things "proper") would be to remove the validation checks from the executable entirely. Fundamentally, game DRM works like this:
if (gameIsReal) { goto actualGame; } else { print "Fuck you!" }with varying degrees of sophistication in checking if the game is real and hiding where that check is. Disassembling the executable and removing the check entirely is what these people do all the time; changing how the check works won't do shit.
Anyone else find the games industry a bit full of itself? Every other industry whether it's books, cars, computer hardware etc. There is zero problem with a used market, but the software market has this really self-entitled opinion about used games that somehow they're being ripped off. To me it shows the level of their immaturity.
It's so petty, if someone wants to sell their property that's up to them.
---
I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
This is also pretty much the whole reason behind things like the one-time usage "free" DLC that's coming with games right out of the box. Even console games are getting that, and for them it's not a method of combating piracy, it's a method of combating the second-hand market. Both of which publishers view as largely similar problems (making sure that the person playing is the one that paid YOU, and not somebody else).
The new SOCOM games on the PSP does this. It's mainly an online game, and in order to use the online component you need to register a code that comes with the game. Anyone picking it up second-hand would need to pay $20 to the PSN store in order to pick up a new code and be allowed online.
At least they sell it. Forza 3 had a packin DLC code that you can only get in a new copy.
Also, I'd like to add as a slice of irony I bought AC2 for the PS3 about a month ago used.
Only in the last couple of weeks have I been playing it, ME2 and Beatles Rock Band interrupted my AC2 game.
---
I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
Then you're no better than the pirate scum. :P
I have 100% problem with this because six months out of the year I'm without (personal) interwebs.
(Well, if I was on a ship I would be. I'm on shore duty right meow.)
... you enlisted anyway, you'd be a special case no matter what. :P
But anyway, it internet connectivity was widespread and available anywhere, this wouldn't be a problem because you'd be connected to the internet anyhow (which is the point I was getting at with my post).
Who's connection is honestly that solid that it remains up and running at all times? My router just messed up the other night and now won't hold a wireless connection, I'm getting a new one soon. So in this instance I wouldn't be able to play AC2 on my pc.
In one of the reviews someone mentioned that Ubisoft's servers dropped when they were playing the game, they got booted out. Now imagine 10,000 people are playing the game at that point, 10,000 people get booted out at the same time!
It's not just access to the internet, it's reliable, solid, no glitches connection to the internet that's required. And then you have to hope the ubisoft servers are having a good day.
It's madness. Madness I tell you!
PSN: SirGrinchX
Oculus Rift: Sir_Grinch