Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
edited January 2010
I think people take all these rules waaaaaaay too seriously. I mean, nothing short of hard modes and icc needs that level of silly goosery. When its not an all business raid, I don't care wtf some silly goose does as long as noone dies and the instance finishes quickly, in that order of importance. Like, if dps pull before my tank, grats for wanting to go faster than ME (as that is quite an accomplishment) unless they do something we can't recover from. If I'm dpsing on my shaman, I know when I will pull aggro, and I also take full resposibility for it. I also can usually handle it.
I've had numerous gvroups with low dps lately. Yet, they have been some of my best groups. They use tricks and knowledge to get er done, and keep a good pace.
This whole convo reminds me about that tank who got angry in voa when I as the ot pulled aggro on trash. If its not serious and its not getting anyone killed, who cares? You waste more time being a silly goose about it. And trust me, you aren't making a difference. Silly geese don't learn a lesson, they just continue to be silly gooses
Tanking as a warrior is all about challenging yourself. Everything is hard mode. You succeed most of the time because you're just to damn stubborn to fail.
If you're having to ranged pull, make sure your DPS knows before hand what you're doing. Especially if its a LOS pull. That way if they've got half a brain they'll hold off long enough for you to pick everything up. However most WotLK dungeon/heroics have the mobs spaced so you don't have to ranged pull, you won't aggro the next group if you jsut charge in and TC.
Decomposey on
Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, be warned: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
I just wanna say I've run with Knut (captaink) as his tank before and when he means "let the tank pull" he means "let the tank get off 2-3 GCDs of abilities to build threat", then unload DPS.
A DPS who let me do that would only have to worry about dying to AoEs or mobs that randomly switch targets.
Tanking as a warrior is all about challenging yourself. Everything is hard mode. You succeed most of the time because you're just to damn stubborn to fail.
Warrior tanking is easy, just vigilance the highest dps and thunderclap/cleave spam to victory!
Jephery on
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"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
As long as the DPS isn't actually pulling, the tanks should be able to keep everything on him, in my experience.
If I'm DPSing on my shaman, I let the tank pull, then go all out. If I aggro anything, it's usually mostly dead anyways. I can take a hit. If the tank gets pissy about that, he needs to be less of a control freak.
In my tanking experience, I am glad for DPS that like to push it. Tanking trash is only fun if I'm really fighting the DPS, or I'm pulling 2 packs at once.
Quite often my pull is only good against one out of 5+ targets. If you drop totems/chain lightning right after I throw at a caster to silence the caster and pull the group you are going to have 4+ mobs on you. Meanwhile as a Warrior I now have almost no rage and only one mob angry at me, this is where I get frustrated.
Yeah, see, warrior doesn't seem as fun to me.
Give me time to get punched once or twice and I swear to you that I will be charging into the next group before this group is dead.
Oh I've had plenty of fun being in groups with warrior tanks, I just really don't like how the class works for me, personally.
Tanking as a warrior is all about challenging yourself. Everything is hard mode. You succeed most of the time because you're just to damn stubborn to fail.
Warrior tanking is easy, just vigilance the highest dps and thunderclap/cleave spam to victory!
Doesn't always work, if the highest DPS is focusing a single target, and the second highest DPS is focusing a different target, and the third guy is spamming rain of fire.
Decomposey on
Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, be warned: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
The only thing remotely difficult for warrior tanking is trying to get all the whelps during Onyxia second phase, since we don't have an aoe ability that constantly ticks like Consecrate and Death and Decay, or a spamable Swipe. You have to manually target each little guy coming out of the cubby to cleave him while spamming thunderclap. The hard part is clicking the tiny dragon.
Jephery on
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"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
I just wanna say I've run with Knut (captaink) as his tank before and when he means "let the tank pull" he means "let the tank get off 2-3 GCDs of abilities to build threat", then unload DPS.
I do usually wait to see Thunderclap or D&D or Consecrate or something.
I see it as less a matter of "WOW TANKING IZ SRS BZNSS!" and more a matter of "Look, geese, let's just play nice and get this done and get out of here. Doing things that actively disrupt my ability to tank are not helping, and you'll be called on it or left to die if you keep it up."
It's not being a prima donna to expect people not to be jerks, and if they continue that behaviour after being asked nicely, there may be consequences.
Look at it this way; if I pull and hold everything, that's great. If a DPS pulls, well... I hope they can hold everything.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Tanking as a warrior is all about challenging yourself. Everything is hard mode. You succeed most of the time because you're just to damn stubborn to fail.
Warrior tanking is easy, just vigilance the highest dps and thunderclap/cleave spam to victory!
Doesn't always work, if the highest DPS is focusing a single target, and the second highest DPS is focusing a different target, and the third guy is spamming rain of fire.
Never had a problem with that. If the dps is high enough that they can pull off my AoE threat in heroics, then the mobs are probably dieing in less than 5 seconds.
Jephery on
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Tanking as a warrior is all about challenging yourself. Everything is hard mode. You succeed most of the time because you're just to damn stubborn to fail.
Warrior tanking is easy, just vigilance the highest dps and thunderclap/cleave spam to victory!
Doesn't always work, if the highest DPS is focusing a single target, and the second highest DPS is focusing a different target, and the third guy is spamming rain of fire.
Never had a problem with that. If the dps is high enough that they can pull off my AoE threat in heroics, then the mobs are probably dieing in less than 5 seconds.
Most of the time, yeah. Mob starts running towards a mage or something and fall over halfway there. But then you get places like HoR.
Decomposey on
Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, be warned: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
I hit 80 on my Mage 2 days ago and i've been doing Heroics trying to gear up since then. Doing 2500-3500 DPS in heroics with 1800 SP now. Constantly doing more damage and dps than people with full epics.
I hit 80 on my Mage 2 days ago and i've been doing Heroics trying to gear up since then. Doing 2500-3500 DPS in heroics with 1800 SP now. Constantly doing more damage and dps than people with full epics.
DPS is shockingly bad. All of my 80s are primarily dps chars (dk/rogue/moonkin) and I always wondered why people act like random heroics are so terrible. Then I started tanking them on my DK and holy shit at getting groups with 3 people in the 1-2k dps range. And just dumb players at that. Like killing themselves on Paletress in ToC when she spawns her add.
You don't understand why people complain about heroic pugs until you've tanked (or I suppose healed) them. You pray for just one person that can carry the inevitable two other failures you get.
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ZampanovYou May Not Go HomeUntil Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered Userregular
DPS is shockingly bad. All of my 80s are primarily dps chars (dk/rogue/moonkin) and I always wondered why people act like random heroics are so terrible. Then I started tanking them on my DK and holy shit at getting groups with 3 people in the 1-2k dps range. And just dumb players at that. Like killing themselves on Paletress in ToC when she spawns her add.
You don't understand why people complain about heroic pugs until you've tanked (or I suppose healed) them. You pray for just one person that can carry the inevitable two other failures you get.
2k dps seems like it would be okay for heroics, is that not the case? It's been awhile since I've been at endgame. As failures go, I'd definitely rather have a 2k failure than an 800 dps failure.
Feral or balance druid? Fresh 80 or no? 'Cause if it's a fresh 80 feral druid take pity on the poor bastich.
<- hates the feral dps rotation so very much
It isn't so bad if you ignore FB's until you get the rest of it down. It's a DPS loss in the short term but it makes getting hang of the full rotation later a lot easier.
It's still the hardest DPS rotation in the game though, which is crazy considering how mindless playing a bear is.
Feral or balance druid? Fresh 80 or no? 'Cause if it's a fresh 80 feral druid take pity on the poor bastich.
<- hates the feral dps rotation so very much
I decided to join a leveling dungeon as DPS on my feral druid, watching recount I felt like shit. Never mind the other DPS could all AoE to various degrees but at 47 they were all more then doubling my DPS. And trying to tank at that level is hell since rage generation is pretty horrible and the threat I get from my one spammable AoE skill is also not good.
I played my druid for the first time since ToC came out last night. Put out 2.5k in heroics which i felt like a noob for doing. Funny thing is though I went into the first one with res sickness because I didn't want to sit in the que for 15 more minutes. Even with res sickness I pulled 1k dps...anyone that does less at 80 needs to be killed.
The only thing remotely difficult for warrior tanking is trying to get all the whelps during Onyxia second phase, since we don't have an aoe ability that constantly ticks like Consecrate and Death and Decay, or a spamable Swipe. You have to manually target each little guy coming out of the cubby to cleave him while spamming thunderclap. The hard part is clicking the tiny dragon.
How long does it take them all to come out? DK tanking is good if stuff streams in over a relatively brief period (less than 10 seconds) but becomes very problematic if it's a steady stream over a longer period.
This discussion just reminds me of the H UK my Arcane Mage got as a random earlier today. The Bear tank who was decked out in Epics ranging from 200-245, was doing a good 600dps. His threat was bad.
I sat there doing nothing on a lot of pulls because if I looked at mobs funny they'd beeline for me. The Fury Warrior frequently pulled off the druid, as did the Elemental Shaman. No deaths but it just felt painful.
By the end of the run, the druid's average DPS was up to 900, so apparently they had stopped eating or whatever the fuck they were trying to do while tanking. Still fairly low for the gear the druid was sporting.
I was about to comment, but it wouldn't have been very constructive because I don't know bears well enough to give any advice, and the Paladin Healer was in the same guild. I didn't feel like getting kicked or something for speaking out, because we all know how trigger happy people are with that shit these days.
The only thing remotely difficult for warrior tanking is trying to get all the whelps during Onyxia second phase, since we don't have an aoe ability that constantly ticks like Consecrate and Death and Decay, or a spamable Swipe. You have to manually target each little guy coming out of the cubby to cleave him while spamming thunderclap. The hard part is clicking the tiny dragon.
How long does it take them all to come out? DK tanking is good if stuff streams in over a relatively brief period (less than 10 seconds) but becomes very problematic if it's a steady stream over a longer period.
Onyxia Whelps are a HUGE pain in the ass for DKs. They trickle out slowly over the course of like 20 or something seconds.
Even with talented DnD, the Whelps will be running right by you 33% of the time.
This discussion just reminds me of the H UK my Arcane Mage got as a random earlier today. The Bear tank who was decked out in Epics ranging from 200-245, was doing a good 600dps. His threat was bad.
I sat there doing nothing on a lot of pulls because if I looked at mobs funny they'd beeline for me. The Fury Warrior frequently pulled off the druid, as did the Elemental Shaman. No deaths but it just felt painful.
By the end of the run, the druid's average DPS was up to 900, so apparently they had stopped eating or whatever the fuck they were trying to do while tanking. Still fairly low for the gear the druid was sporting.
I was about to comment, but it wouldn't have been very constructive because I don't know bears well enough to give any advice, and the Paladin Healer was in the same guild. I didn't feel like getting kicked or something for speaking out, because we all know how trigger happy people are with that shit these days.
He probably spammed maul and didn't have the glyph. Or he never swiped.
Single target threat is something I never have a problem with (provided ilevel is fairly equal).
Teleported out of a dungeon for the first time today.
I'm healer, tank leaves so dps druid switches to tank. Fine, no prob. I'm shaman healer, there's a mage and a hunter. So first pull , this guy pulls about 4 or 5 mobs. Instantly, 3 peel off to come over to the mage who aoe'd (all the ranged dps are clustered up together). No prob, people draw aggro. The problem comes when the tank neither attempts to pick up aggro from the 3 mobs that are currently killing our mage nor does he stay where he is and manage the other 2 mobs. No, the tank runs of to chase a runner out of my line of sight.
Let me say that again:
THE FUCKING TANK RUNS OFF TO CHASE A FUCKING RUNNER MOB OUT OF LINE OF SIGHT OF THE HEALER WHILE 3 MOBS ARE KILLING THE HEALER AND DPS. He also manages to draw 2 more mobs in the process.
Me: Tank where the hell are you we're dying here
Tank: heals, need heals
Me: You're out of range get your ass back here and tank
Tank: Heal me
Tank runs back followed by 2 mobs, I start casting healing wave on tank (mob is beating on me now, half health)
TANK GETS OUT OF BEAR FORM AND STARTS TO CAST REGROWTH ON HIMSELF.
I played my druid for the first time since ToC came out last night. Put out 2.5k in heroics which i felt like a noob for doing. Funny thing is though I went into the first one with res sickness because I didn't want to sit in the que for 15 more minutes. Even with res sickness I pulled 1k dps...anyone that does less at 80 needs to be killed.
Somehow, I think there's more to this than you're revealing if you only do 2.5k dps normally, considering rez sickness reduces all damage by 75% (never mind the additional 75% reduction in primary stats).
Also, killed? Seriously? I'll concede I was incorrect on some points I made earlier in the week, but...seriously?
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I've had numerous gvroups with low dps lately. Yet, they have been some of my best groups. They use tricks and knowledge to get er done, and keep a good pace.
This whole convo reminds me about that tank who got angry in voa when I as the ot pulled aggro on trash. If its not serious and its not getting anyone killed, who cares? You waste more time being a silly goose about it. And trust me, you aren't making a difference. Silly geese don't learn a lesson, they just continue to be silly gooses
If you're having to ranged pull, make sure your DPS knows before hand what you're doing. Especially if its a LOS pull. That way if they've got half a brain they'll hold off long enough for you to pick everything up. However most WotLK dungeon/heroics have the mobs spaced so you don't have to ranged pull, you won't aggro the next group if you jsut charge in and TC.
A DPS who let me do that would only have to worry about dying to AoEs or mobs that randomly switch targets.
"You died from healing me??"
"Yes, healing generates threat too."
Warrior tanking is easy, just vigilance the highest dps and thunderclap/cleave spam to victory!
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Suddenly, I'm having flashback from brd.
In retrospect, that wasn't the normal route you were suppose to take (the one through all the anvilrage officers and medics and whatnot).
Oh I've had plenty of fun being in groups with warrior tanks, I just really don't like how the class works for me, personally.
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
I understand that entirely. I feel the same way about Hunters.
Doesn't always work, if the highest DPS is focusing a single target, and the second highest DPS is focusing a different target, and the third guy is spamming rain of fire.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
I do usually wait to see Thunderclap or D&D or Consecrate or something.
Yeah, pet maintenance pisses me off.
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
It's not being a prima donna to expect people not to be jerks, and if they continue that behaviour after being asked nicely, there may be consequences.
Look at it this way; if I pull and hold everything, that's great. If a DPS pulls, well... I hope they can hold everything.
Never had a problem with that. If the dps is high enough that they can pull off my AoE threat in heroics, then the mobs are probably dieing in less than 5 seconds.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
It isn't the pet maintenance that gets me, its things dying where my pet is and I fall asleep.
Most of the time, yeah. Mob starts running towards a mage or something and fall over halfway there. But then you get places like HoR.
in conclusion: dps r bad.
http://www.wow-heroes.com/index.php?zone=us&server=Dark%20Iron&name=Zamtil
And mage is awesome?
I miss my mage... kind of...
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
You don't understand why people complain about heroic pugs until you've tanked (or I suppose healed) them. You pray for just one person that can carry the inevitable two other failures you get.
2k dps seems like it would be okay for heroics, is that not the case? It's been awhile since I've been at endgame. As failures go, I'd definitely rather have a 2k failure than an 800 dps failure.
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
there is no excuse for being so worthless.
<- hates the feral dps rotation so very much
It's still the hardest DPS rotation in the game though, which is crazy considering how mindless playing a bear is.
I decided to join a leveling dungeon as DPS on my feral druid, watching recount I felt like shit. Never mind the other DPS could all AoE to various degrees but at 47 they were all more then doubling my DPS. And trying to tank at that level is hell since rage generation is pretty horrible and the threat I get from my one spammable AoE skill is also not good.
I played my druid for the first time since ToC came out last night. Put out 2.5k in heroics which i felt like a noob for doing. Funny thing is though I went into the first one with res sickness because I didn't want to sit in the que for 15 more minutes. Even with res sickness I pulled 1k dps...anyone that does less at 80 needs to be killed.
I sat there doing nothing on a lot of pulls because if I looked at mobs funny they'd beeline for me. The Fury Warrior frequently pulled off the druid, as did the Elemental Shaman. No deaths but it just felt painful.
By the end of the run, the druid's average DPS was up to 900, so apparently they had stopped eating or whatever the fuck they were trying to do while tanking. Still fairly low for the gear the druid was sporting.
I was about to comment, but it wouldn't have been very constructive because I don't know bears well enough to give any advice, and the Paladin Healer was in the same guild. I didn't feel like getting kicked or something for speaking out, because we all know how trigger happy people are with that shit these days.
Onyxia Whelps are a HUGE pain in the ass for DKs. They trickle out slowly over the course of like 20 or something seconds.
Even with talented DnD, the Whelps will be running right by you 33% of the time.
Single target threat is something I never have a problem with (provided ilevel is fairly equal).
Teleported out of a dungeon for the first time today.
I'm healer, tank leaves so dps druid switches to tank. Fine, no prob. I'm shaman healer, there's a mage and a hunter. So first pull , this guy pulls about 4 or 5 mobs. Instantly, 3 peel off to come over to the mage who aoe'd (all the ranged dps are clustered up together). No prob, people draw aggro. The problem comes when the tank neither attempts to pick up aggro from the 3 mobs that are currently killing our mage nor does he stay where he is and manage the other 2 mobs. No, the tank runs of to chase a runner out of my line of sight.
Let me say that again:
THE FUCKING TANK RUNS OFF TO CHASE A FUCKING RUNNER MOB OUT OF LINE OF SIGHT OF THE HEALER WHILE 3 MOBS ARE KILLING THE HEALER AND DPS. He also manages to draw 2 more mobs in the process.
Me: Tank where the hell are you we're dying here
Tank: heals, need heals
Me: You're out of range get your ass back here and tank
Tank: Heal me
Tank runs back followed by 2 mobs, I start casting healing wave on tank (mob is beating on me now, half health)
TANK GETS OUT OF BEAR FORM AND STARTS TO CAST REGROWTH ON HIMSELF.
/leaveparty
Somehow, I think there's more to this than you're revealing if you only do 2.5k dps normally, considering rez sickness reduces all damage by 75% (never mind the additional 75% reduction in primary stats).
Also, killed? Seriously? I'll concede I was incorrect on some points I made earlier in the week, but...seriously?
Someone who just dinged 80 and is in quest/instance blues has the capacity to do at least 2k dps. Most people with feebie t9 gear don't do 2k dps.