TavIrish Minister for DefenceRegistered Userregular
edited February 2010
Wenger can go fuck himself with a post-match like that. There was no malice in that tackle. Jesus Christ, Shawcross was crying as he walked off the pitch.
TavIrish Minister for DefenceRegistered Userregular
edited February 2010
The angle of the videos on Youtube make it very hard to see where the contact was, but the fact that only one Arsenal player went to check on Ramsey while four of them went to campaign at the ref for a sending off speaks volumes about the team. The four of them didn't even give Ramsey a second look before going over to the ref. What a shower of cunts, especially Sol Campbell.
They may not have known how bad the injury was.... I didn't know at first, I thought he just got studded in the ankle. Plus really for them to "check up" on Ramsey doesn't do any good, they're not physios.
The angle of the videos on Youtube make it very hard to see where the contact was, but the fact that only one Arsenal player went to check on Ramsey while four of them went to campaign at the ref for a sending off speaks volumes about the team. The four of them didn't even give Ramsey a second look before going over to the ref. What a shower of cunts, especially Sol Campbell.
Nailed it. Same reason I'm not terribly disappointed that Chelsea lost to City. I mean fuck. Bridge v Terry has to go to Bridge even if Bridge is (in the vernacular) rubbish.
themightypuck on
“Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears.”
― Marcus Aurelius
Man, I feel terrible for both of them. Shawcross looks so upset, I feel terrible for him. He clearly was just fooled by Ramsey. So unlucky. Obviously I also feel terrible for Ramsey. Terrible situation all around.
Wanna bet Sports Illustrated are gonna pull another "Eduardo spread" in their next issue with Aaron Ramsey?
When Eduardo broke his leg, SI had a spread that showed the break right near the front of the issue and it was in bad taste, lotta people complained but SI didn't care.
On the one hand I feel bad for Shawcross who obviously was distraught at what he'd done... but on the other hand he lunged in with his cleats up. There's a reason you're not supposed to do that. What's more, I bet there were a half-dozen similar tackles throughout the league this weekend that nothing came of and no mention will be made of them - and there'll be a half-dozen more next weekend.
I think the joga bonito business did have a bit of success in cutting down on diving, they should do something similar for these types of tackles. Because I have little doubt that most every side that plays Arsenal is instructed to go in hard on them. And often players that make regularly tackles like this (and I'm not saying Shawcross is one of them) are said to be "physical" or some other euphemism, and not condemned in the same way divers are.
On the one hand I feel bad for Shawcross who obviously was distraught at what he'd done... but on the other hand he lunged in with his cleats up.
I'm pretty sure he didn't.
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RaakamToo many years...CanadalandRegistered Userregular
edited February 2010
It was a 50/50 tackle. Ramsey got hurt. It's ugly, and it's really bad news for the welshman.
Still, to say Arsene is dumb for being angry about it is also fairly obtuse. That's the third horrible injury that's hit his team in the last 3? years. He has every right to be pissed off. Regardless of intent or not, the end result is that one of his better players was severely injured and will be out for god knows how long. Ramsey's entire career could be over. Not because he won't come back, but how scared will he be in the same 50/50 situation? Will he be less aggressive?
Playing physical against Arsenal is one thing - see Chelsea's gameplan vs the gunners. They fought for every ball, jostled and just generally closed on space. Compare that to the general play of this match, and you get a very different sense of what the team was told to do.
I don't really blame Shawcross at all for this. Sure, it was a little bit clumsy, but there was no intent to hurt. I, however, blame the refereeing, the FA and the coaches.
The referees because when those kids of tackles don't result in bad injuries, they don't get carded. Be consistent. Either it's always a yellow/red card, regardless of contact, or it isn't. You can't base your decision on the amount of damage caused.
The FA because they haven't cracked down on this and told the refs what they wanted. Equip the fucking refs with some measure of replays already - why is Football the only sport that's 50 years behind everyone else? There isn't one good argument about why replays shouldn't be allowed. "It'll destroy the integrity of the sport - it's a human game, etc" Bullshit. Utter crap. Fix your shit UEFA/FIFA/FAs.
The coaches are also in the pot because they tell their players to go in rough, even if they don't have any real chance at winning. If they hurt you bad enough and you scare the opposing team off their game and the ball, for fear of getting severely injured, you might snag a draw. That's unacceptable. That's not tactics, that's just ... I don't know, criminal seems too strong a word, but somewhere in that range.
Anyhow, tl;dr: not thrilled about the situation. Get better Ramsey.
Raakam on
My padherder they don't it be like it is but it do
Raakam, you say to be consistent, but what do you think would have happened to Shawcross if he had remained on the field? Do you think more players should be carded when they go in for challenges with their laces up?
My point is this... nobody is to blame for this incident. In my opinion, it can only be summed up as one thing: unfortunate.
Buddy Lee on
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I couldn't find this still on GIS, does anyone have it?
I've only seen it from far away, but I don't see how he could have led with the laces given the way he went in, with his leg stuck out pretty much straight in front of him. I mean if there's a still that proves me wrong then I'm wrong, but from the replays I've seen it looks like his cleats were up.
The coaches are also in the pot because they tell their players to go in rough, even if they don't have any real chance at winning. If they hurt you bad enough and you scare the opposing team off their game and the ball, for fear of getting severely injured, you might snag a draw. That's unacceptable. That's not tactics, that's just ... I don't know, criminal seems too strong a word, but somewhere in that range.
Because I have little doubt that most every side that plays Arsenal is instructed to go in hard on them. And often players that make regularly tackles like this (and I'm not saying Shawcross is one of them) are said to be "physical" or some other euphemism, and not condemned in the same way divers are.
This.
It's not so much Shawcross' fault as it is the managers who very clearly tell their players to be as rough as possible on Arsenal players because we're thought to be "soft".
Also, Tav, you're a penis.
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TavIrish Minister for DefenceRegistered Userregular
edited February 2010
Teams don't tackle Arsenal players harder, Wenger just bitches about the tackles that do happen. Two bad injuries in two years and the whole world is against Arsenal. That injury could of happened to any player in the league and you know that as well as I do.
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RaakamToo many years...CanadalandRegistered Userregular
Raakam, you say to be consistent, but what do you think would have happened to Shawcross if he had remained on the field? Do you think more players should be carded when they go in for challenges with their laces up?
My point is this... nobody is to blame for this incident. In my opinion, it can only be summed up as one thing: unfortunate.
Shawcross would have been substituted Buddy. No way the coaching staff would have kept him on the field. It wasn't a red card challenge - it incorrectly became so when Ramsey broke his leg. The ref acted instinctively when he saw the severity of the damage done. Remember when Cisse broke his leg in the France vs China game? He kinda just fell over and his leg was broken, all by himself. Noone to blame there, but the rest of the game was called super tightly. It's just the "human" factor. It was a yellow card challenge though, he did get there late, and even if intent wasn't there, he didn't get the ball.
Look, I'm an Arsenal boy through and through. It's just very aggravating to see this shit happening again. Diaby, Eduardo and now Ramsey. Do you think that if this had happened at Man United or Liverpool, it wouldn't have led to a shitstorm?
Raakam on
My padherder they don't it be like it is but it do
Look, I'm an Arsenal boy through and through. It's just very aggravating to see this shit happening again. Diaby, Eduardo and now Ramsey. Do you think that if this had happened at Man United or Liverpool, it wouldn't have led to a shitstorm?
I do not believe that the situation would be any different if it was happening to Liverpool, ManU, or any other team.
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Look, I'm an Arsenal boy through and through. It's just very aggravating to see this shit happening again. Diaby, Eduardo and now Ramsey. Do you think that if this had happened at Man United or Liverpool, it wouldn't have led to a shitstorm?
I do not believe that the situation would be any different if it was happening to Liverpool, ManU, or any other team.
This whole "conspiracy against Arsenal" line is ridiculous in my opinion. The reason this doesn't happen at Man U, Liverpool and Chelsea is because their managers don't insist on using young, physically underdeveloped players week-in-week-out in a league that is high paced, direct and physical.
Like it or not, that's how the EPL is played. If I'm manager of Stoke I'm not going to tell my players to get out there and try to beat you playing neat-tippy-tappy-pass-and-move-triangles-and-walk-the-ball-into-the-net. No. I'm going to tell my two proper big'n'orrible shaven-headed-neck-tattooed-no-front-teeth centre backs (called Steve and Barry) to go out there and kick your eight technically-gifted-but-fragile-french-speaking-attacking-midfielders ten feet up in the air to get you rattled and disrupt your elegant passing and beautiful use of space. Within the spirit of the game of course. I'm also going to tell that one bloke who can throw a ball really hard to throw the ball really hard every chance he gets. Who cares how you score goals, so long as you score goals.
Like it or not, if you field a physically weak and fragile side week in week out then opponents are going to recognise that weakness and target it. They're not going to come around and play football "Wenger's Way" just because he trots out 11 sublimely talented youngsters every week.
What happened to Ramsey seems to have been a complete accident, the tackle didn't look particularly dangerous and Shawcroft seemed genuinely upset by what had happened. Football is a physical game sometimes shit like this just happens. It sucks but there's not a lot that can be done about situations like this one.
Every team thinks there is a conspiracy against them. Liverpool have been on the bad end of some horrendous decisions this season and Torres has had the shit kicked out of him for nearly two seasons solid now and nothing gets done about it.
Is there a conspiracy against Liverpool? No, probably not.
Are the vast majority of referees and administrators in English football shit at their jobs and completely spineless? Yes, almost certainly.
Is there a conspiracy against Liverpool? No, probably not.
Are the vast majority of referees and administrators in English football shit at their jobs and completely spineless? Yes, almost certainly.
The refs in the premier league get a really hard deal. I support a league two team and when we get PL refs you do really notice the increase in quality; they're much more eager to let the games flow and tend to be more willing to make big decisions. Torres isn't treated that much worse than any other good striker, he's very light weight.
Look, I'm an Arsenal boy through and through. It's just very aggravating to see this shit happening again. Diaby, Eduardo and now Ramsey. Do you think that if this had happened at Man United or Liverpool, it wouldn't have led to a shitstorm?
I do not believe that the situation would be any different if it was happening to Liverpool, ManU, or any other team.
This whole "conspiracy against Arsenal" line is ridiculous in my opinion. The reason this doesn't happen at Man U, Liverpool and Chelsea is because their managers don't insist on using young, physically underdeveloped players week-in-week-out in a league that is high paced, direct and physical.
Like it or not, that's how the EPL is played. If I'm manager of Stoke I'm not going to tell my players to get out there and try to beat you playing neat-tippy-tappy-pass-and-move-triangles-and-walk-the-ball-into-the-net. No. I'm going to tell my two proper big'n'orrible shaven-headed-neck-tattooed-no-front-teeth centre backs (called Steve and Barry) to go out there and kick your eight technically-gifted-but-fragile-french-speaking-attacking-midfielders ten feet up in the air to get you rattled and disrupt your elegant passing and beautiful use of space. Within the spirit of the game of course. I'm also going to tell that one bloke who can throw a ball really hard to throw the ball really hard every chance he gets. Who cares how you score goals, so long as you score goals.
Like it or not, if you field a physically weak and fragile side week in week out then opponents are going to recognise that weakness and target it. They're not going to come around and play football "Wenger's Way" just because he trots out 11 sublimely talented youngsters every week.
This is the PROBLEM. You just explained the problem. Not the long throws but what you describe as "rattling" and "disrupting," which means tackling in a way that's more likely to cause injury. What you call "recognizing the weakness and targeting it" is no better than players that dive looking for a penalty: it's a violation of the spirit of the game. But instead of condemning it as we do diving people resign themselves to it.
First you say that there's no conspiracy against Arsenal, then you go on to explain how coaches instruct their players to play "physically" against them. No one's claiming that people are doing this just because of what club it is. It's no different than teams that kill the hell out of Messi whenever they play Barcelona, or any other skilled player. It's a cynical tactic and a cynical argument to defend it.
I could just as easily craft an argument that says "if you're going to have a well-organized defense, then I'm not gonna try and break it down. Instead, I'll just instruct my players to fall over at the slightest contact. This is just the way the game is played." But that argument is absurd, and so should be the idea that skilled players have to resign themselves to being cleated in the shins and ankles every time they touch the ball when we have the means to make that type of defending less acceptable.
Playing a physical brand of football, and playing contrary to the spirit of the game are two different things.
Playing "Cynical" football is one thing, and playing tough hard working football is another thing as well.
I don't support going out there and breaking Messi's ankles but I do support going out there and making Messi work for the football, trying to bump him off the ball which is completely different from trying to break his ankles every time he touches the ball.
I think BoA is right, just he even stated he "within the spirit of the game." He probably just didn't explain himself clearly.
When I think physical football, I think using the upper part of the body, not sliding willy nilly in with my studs up.
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3 - 1 disproves that :P
... in the Carling Cup final. Did you guys take your ManU and Aston Villa players out of your fantasy squads?
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Nailed it. Same reason I'm not terribly disappointed that Chelsea lost to City. I mean fuck. Bridge v Terry has to go to Bridge even if Bridge is (in the vernacular) rubbish.
― Marcus Aurelius
Path of Exile: themightypuck
When Eduardo broke his leg, SI had a spread that showed the break right near the front of the issue and it was in bad taste, lotta people complained but SI didn't care.
It depends, someone has done lots recently. If that wasn't you, then go ahead.
(I don't care either way, I just thought we should keep it rolling through the regulars.)
I think the joga bonito business did have a bit of success in cutting down on diving, they should do something similar for these types of tackles. Because I have little doubt that most every side that plays Arsenal is instructed to go in hard on them. And often players that make regularly tackles like this (and I'm not saying Shawcross is one of them) are said to be "physical" or some other euphemism, and not condemned in the same way divers are.
I'm pretty sure he didn't.
Still, to say Arsene is dumb for being angry about it is also fairly obtuse. That's the third horrible injury that's hit his team in the last 3? years. He has every right to be pissed off. Regardless of intent or not, the end result is that one of his better players was severely injured and will be out for god knows how long. Ramsey's entire career could be over. Not because he won't come back, but how scared will he be in the same 50/50 situation? Will he be less aggressive?
Playing physical against Arsenal is one thing - see Chelsea's gameplan vs the gunners. They fought for every ball, jostled and just generally closed on space. Compare that to the general play of this match, and you get a very different sense of what the team was told to do.
I don't really blame Shawcross at all for this. Sure, it was a little bit clumsy, but there was no intent to hurt. I, however, blame the refereeing, the FA and the coaches.
The referees because when those kids of tackles don't result in bad injuries, they don't get carded. Be consistent. Either it's always a yellow/red card, regardless of contact, or it isn't. You can't base your decision on the amount of damage caused.
The FA because they haven't cracked down on this and told the refs what they wanted. Equip the fucking refs with some measure of replays already - why is Football the only sport that's 50 years behind everyone else? There isn't one good argument about why replays shouldn't be allowed. "It'll destroy the integrity of the sport - it's a human game, etc" Bullshit. Utter crap. Fix your shit UEFA/FIFA/FAs.
The coaches are also in the pot because they tell their players to go in rough, even if they don't have any real chance at winning. If they hurt you bad enough and you scare the opposing team off their game and the ball, for fear of getting severely injured, you might snag a draw. That's unacceptable. That's not tactics, that's just ... I don't know, criminal seems too strong a word, but somewhere in that range.
Anyhow, tl;dr: not thrilled about the situation. Get better Ramsey.
they don't it be like it is but it do
No he didn't. MotD showed a still of it. He went in with the laces.
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My point is this... nobody is to blame for this incident. In my opinion, it can only be summed up as one thing: unfortunate.
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I've only seen it from far away, but I don't see how he could have led with the laces given the way he went in, with his leg stuck out pretty much straight in front of him. I mean if there's a still that proves me wrong then I'm wrong, but from the replays I've seen it looks like his cleats were up.
This.
It's not so much Shawcross' fault as it is the managers who very clearly tell their players to be as rough as possible on Arsenal players because we're thought to be "soft".
Also, Tav, you're a penis.
Shawcross would have been substituted Buddy. No way the coaching staff would have kept him on the field. It wasn't a red card challenge - it incorrectly became so when Ramsey broke his leg. The ref acted instinctively when he saw the severity of the damage done. Remember when Cisse broke his leg in the France vs China game? He kinda just fell over and his leg was broken, all by himself. Noone to blame there, but the rest of the game was called super tightly. It's just the "human" factor. It was a yellow card challenge though, he did get there late, and even if intent wasn't there, he didn't get the ball.
Look, I'm an Arsenal boy through and through. It's just very aggravating to see this shit happening again. Diaby, Eduardo and now Ramsey. Do you think that if this had happened at Man United or Liverpool, it wouldn't have led to a shitstorm?
they don't it be like it is but it do
I do not believe that the situation would be any different if it was happening to Liverpool, ManU, or any other team.
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Is it maybe a thing where you change the jerseys so to force fans to buy new ones so they don't stand out?
This whole "conspiracy against Arsenal" line is ridiculous in my opinion. The reason this doesn't happen at Man U, Liverpool and Chelsea is because their managers don't insist on using young, physically underdeveloped players week-in-week-out in a league that is high paced, direct and physical.
Like it or not, that's how the EPL is played. If I'm manager of Stoke I'm not going to tell my players to get out there and try to beat you playing neat-tippy-tappy-pass-and-move-triangles-and-walk-the-ball-into-the-net. No. I'm going to tell my two proper big'n'orrible shaven-headed-neck-tattooed-no-front-teeth centre backs (called Steve and Barry) to go out there and kick your eight technically-gifted-but-fragile-french-speaking-attacking-midfielders ten feet up in the air to get you rattled and disrupt your elegant passing and beautiful use of space. Within the spirit of the game of course. I'm also going to tell that one bloke who can throw a ball really hard to throw the ball really hard every chance he gets. Who cares how you score goals, so long as you score goals.
Like it or not, if you field a physically weak and fragile side week in week out then opponents are going to recognise that weakness and target it. They're not going to come around and play football "Wenger's Way" just because he trots out 11 sublimely talented youngsters every week.
Every team thinks there is a conspiracy against them. Liverpool have been on the bad end of some horrendous decisions this season and Torres has had the shit kicked out of him for nearly two seasons solid now and nothing gets done about it.
Is there a conspiracy against Liverpool? No, probably not.
Are the vast majority of referees and administrators in English football shit at their jobs and completely spineless? Yes, almost certainly.
Can't just make a special case cause one of his players got injured.
Yes, I'm aware of that. I'm also painfully aware that Torres has spent much of the last two seasons out injured. It's not a coincidence.
This is the PROBLEM. You just explained the problem. Not the long throws but what you describe as "rattling" and "disrupting," which means tackling in a way that's more likely to cause injury. What you call "recognizing the weakness and targeting it" is no better than players that dive looking for a penalty: it's a violation of the spirit of the game. But instead of condemning it as we do diving people resign themselves to it.
First you say that there's no conspiracy against Arsenal, then you go on to explain how coaches instruct their players to play "physically" against them. No one's claiming that people are doing this just because of what club it is. It's no different than teams that kill the hell out of Messi whenever they play Barcelona, or any other skilled player. It's a cynical tactic and a cynical argument to defend it.
I could just as easily craft an argument that says "if you're going to have a well-organized defense, then I'm not gonna try and break it down. Instead, I'll just instruct my players to fall over at the slightest contact. This is just the way the game is played." But that argument is absurd, and so should be the idea that skilled players have to resign themselves to being cleated in the shins and ankles every time they touch the ball when we have the means to make that type of defending less acceptable.
Playing "Cynical" football is one thing, and playing tough hard working football is another thing as well.
I don't support going out there and breaking Messi's ankles but I do support going out there and making Messi work for the football, trying to bump him off the ball which is completely different from trying to break his ankles every time he touches the ball.
I think BoA is right, just he even stated he "within the spirit of the game." He probably just didn't explain himself clearly.
When I think physical football, I think using the upper part of the body, not sliding willy nilly in with my studs up.
Or you know, just enjoy being rich.
is that one is a gentleman's sport played by ruffians
and the other is a ruffian's sport played by gentlemen
the only problem is nobody seems to know which is which