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Women, basketball, hos and radio hosts

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Posts

  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited April 2007
    celery77 wrote: »
    Not to mention lots of those people complaining about rap music don't listen to rap music, so like I've already said -- fuck 'em.

    Well, I wouldn't have a problem with them not listening to it if the ignorant fuckers didn't feel the need to open their bullshit holes and condemn the entire genre even though they're ignorant of it.

    Elki on
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  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Further, when have I suggested that artists should be the only ones criticized? So, they're the easiest targets. That means there should be a comparatively large number of complaints against them, because they're the most public faces of this kind of bigotry. This does not mean that labels should not be pilloried as well.
    There are a huge number of complaints against them, unfortunately only the artists seem to be the ones bright enough to complain against the labels and the record-buying public. I mean hip hop's biggest critic might very well be itself, but don't tell that to the kids clamoring for each new G-Unit release.

    And the thing is you personally started out in this line of discussion by saying the black community needs to address these issues, which is asinine, and then you went on to say the artists need to accept some responsibility, which is equally asinine, because all that does is blame the group with the least amount of power and responsibility in creating the problems, which is exactly the type of lazy thinking and self-congratulatory back-patting that does little besides continue entrenching racial disparities in the United States.

    The Green Eyed Monster on
  • ZsetrekZsetrek Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Further, when have I suggested that artists should be the only ones criticized? So, they're the easiest targets. That means there should be a comparatively large number of complaints against them, because they're the most public faces of this kind of bigotry. This does not mean that labels should not be pilloried as well.

    I love the implicit suggestion that black communities aren't allowed to have their own voice. They aren't allowed to broadcast their world-view because it's morally offensive. So, rather than using this as an opportunity to help black communities change and improve, we tell em to sit down and shut up. So long as they say the right things, good things will happen to them. That's incredibly naive.

    Regardless of how phoney artists like 50 Cent, et al, are, they are coming from and marketing a subculture that does exist. To pretend that it doesn't, to censure it assuming that will solve the deep-seeded problems of class iniquity in the US and gang culture in urban ghettoes, is just dumb.

    Black communities need a voice - and if that voice says distressing things, we should take it seriously, not dismiss it.

    Zsetrek on
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    celery77 wrote: »
    And the thing is you personally started out in this line of discussion by saying the black community needs to address these issues, which is asinine

    Why is this asinine? The black community being hypocritical about bigotry isn't good for the black community.
    and then you went on to say the artists need to accept some responsibility, which is equally asinine, because all that does is blame the group with the least amount of power and responsibility in creating the problems

    I fundamentally disagree. They provide the voice, the face, and frequently the lyrics. They aren't the only part of the problem, but when you say that artists who peddle the popularity of pimps and whores don't need to accept any responsibility, you're flat wrong.

    Loren Michael on
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  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited April 2007
    Why do you keep saying the black community, when all of America is buying this music?

    Elki on
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  • ArugulaZArugulaZ Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    celery77 wrote: »
    And the thing is you personally started out in this line of discussion by saying the black community needs to address these issues, which is asinine, and then you went on to say the artists need to accept some responsibility, which is equally asinine, because all that does is blame the group with the least amount of power and responsibility in creating the problems, which is exactly the type of lazy thinking and self-congratulatory back-patting that does little besides to continue entrenching racial disparities in the United States.

    Well, what would you personally suggest?

    I wouldn't mind seeing a return to innocence for rap music, back when the goal of the artists was to entertain, not to intimidate. I'd also like to see pop music become as creative as it was in the 80's, and rock music get back the depth and meaning it had in the early 90's. Frankly, I've grown weary of the sappy radio-friendly drip and the incoherent screaming we've been getting for the past decade.

    Also, you kids get off my lawn!

    ArugulaZ on
    JR

    Same old site, great new look! Check out The Gameroom Blitz at:
    http://www.lakupo.com/grblitz
  • JinniganJinnigan Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Loren seems to be assuming that artists are popular by their own merits, not by the efforts of the label to market their music. As celery has said - there's an amazing amount of positive hip-hop out there, quality stuff that more often than not beats out the top 40 artists for production. But because it's not marketed by the huge-ass labels with money to buy air time, commercials, and posters, it doesn't do as well as the positive music.

    Loren is making the assumption that media is a kind of silver bullet - that it's because of rappers rapping about pimps and hos that everyone is interested in being a pimp. I mean, it couldn't possibly be because people want to buy music about being a pimp that makes "pimping" music positive.

    Jinnigan on
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  • JinniganJinnigan Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    ArugulaZ wrote: »
    Also, you kids get off my lawn!
    Get off our streets, old man.

    Jinnigan on
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  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    and then you went on to say the artists need to accept some responsibility, which is equally asinine, because all that does is blame the group with the least amount of power and responsibility in creating the problems

    I fundamentally disagree. They provide the voice, the face, and frequently the lyrics. They aren't the only part of the problem, but when you say that artists who peddle the popularity of pimps and whores don't need to accept any responsibility, you're flat wrong.
    Those artists wouldn't have the voice they do if (a) it wasn't rather exclusively what the major labels and media outlets have chosen to support and (b) their decision for this support was based upon what the record-buying public (in this case, primarily white people) have chosen to spend their money on. If artists do choose to take a principled stance with their music, you know what happens? They don't get signed to a major which is equivalent to a media blackout, or in the rare instance they do get signed to a major, they're given extremely low priority and support compared to other artists on the label, and this still isn't getting in to how impossible it is for these artists to get their songs on mainstream media outlets. I mean when they play "All Falls Down" on MTV they edit this lyric:
    Kanye West wrote:
    We buy our way out of jail, but we can't buy freedom
    We'll buy a lot of clothes but we don't really need em
    The things we buy to cover up what's inside
    Cause they made us hate ourself and love they wealth
    That's why shorties holler, "Where the ballers at?"
    Drug dealers buy Jordans, crackheads buy crack
    But the white man get paid off of all a dat

    Do you know what is edited out of that?
    white

    Now tell me these artists really have any kind of control over what kind of message they're allowed to broadcast.

    The Green Eyed Monster on
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Elkamil wrote: »
    Why do you keep saying the black community, when all of America is buying this music?

    Because hip-hop is intrinsically tied to the black community.
    http://halfricanrevolution.blogspot.com/2007/04/white-supremacy-outsources-its.html
    Hip-hop has granted black men greater access to white women. It has also granted white men greater access to black women; make no mistake, your teenage son, little brother, or husband is tuning into the "booty channel" (also known as Black Entertainment Television) when you're not home.
    BET and hip hop and black churches aren't really ambiguous about their associations with the black community.

    Loren Michael on
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  • JinniganJinnigan Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Loren, point-blank question: how much hip-hop do you listen to? Or do you get your impression of hip-hop off the news?

    Jinnigan on
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  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Elkamil wrote: »
    Why do you keep saying the black community, when all of America is buying this music?

    Because hip-hop is intrinsically tied to the black community.
    http://halfricanrevolution.blogspot.com/2007/04/white-supremacy-outsources-its.html
    Hip-hop has granted black men greater access to white women. It has also granted white men greater access to black women; make no mistake, your teenage son, little brother, or husband is tuning into the "booty channel" (also known as Black Entertainment Television) when you're not home.
    BET and hip hop and black churches aren't really ambiguous about their associations with the black community.
    Why do you keep lumping the black community together as one solid, inter-connected, hive mind?

    From one member of the white community to another here, Loren, I think you're really fucking up our mojo with this small-minded bullshit, and as whites we need to really get onto another message if we ever expect to get ahead. Please stop holding us back, brethren.

    The Green Eyed Monster on
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    celery77 wrote: »
    Now tell me these artists really have any kind of control over what kind of message they're allowed to broadcast.

    So you're saying there really is no good hip-hop? It's really as misogynistic and homophobic as you've been telling me it isn't?

    Loren Michael on
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  • JinniganJinnigan Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    celery77 wrote: »
    Now tell me these artists really have any kind of control over what kind of message they're allowed to broadcast.

    So you're saying there really is no good hip-hop? It's really as misogynistic and homophobic as you've been telling me it isn't?

    For someone who pushes rationalism, I really expected better logic out of you, seeing as you just ignored 3 or 4 posts about how the positive hip-hop isn't as wide-seen or visible because:

    A) The news loves blood, and there's nothing newsworthy about a black man pushing positivity
    B) The labels choose where all the money goes, both in terms of publishing and marketing.
    C) The labels cater to the audience.

    Jinnigan on
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  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited April 2007
    Elkamil wrote: »
    Why do you keep saying the black community, when all of America is buying this music?

    Because hip-hop is intrinsically tied to the black community.
    http://halfricanrevolution.blogspot.com/2007/04/white-supremacy-outsources-its.html
    Hip-hop has granted black men greater access to white women. It has also granted white men greater access to black women; make no mistake, your teenage son, little brother, or husband is tuning into the "booty channel" (also known as Black Entertainment Television) when you're not home.
    BET and hip hop and black churches aren't really ambiguous about their associations with the black community.

    Consumers make a huge part of any culture, and whites make up 70% of hip-hop consumers. I don't see the value in separating the black community from the rest of America when talking about the need to address the problem, considering that they're a minority, as far as sales are concerned.

    Elki on
    smCQ5WE.jpg
  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    celery77 wrote: »
    Now tell me these artists really have any kind of control over what kind of message they're allowed to broadcast.

    So you're saying there really is no good hip-hop? It's really as misogynistic and homophobic as you've been telling me it isn't?
    Loren, you're either a moron or you're being deliberately obtuse here. I'm talking about an artist's access to major media outlets, of which there is an extremely small number. The media outlets are the ones broadcasting these messages of misogyny and violence, not the artists, because as I pointed out, the artist has extremely little control over what can and cannot be broadcasted. Simply because both albums can be found in the local record store doesn't mean they're getting equal exposure.

    The Green Eyed Monster on
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Right, like it's only white guys that talk about a black community, and there's no cohesion whatsoever, anywhere, and certainly not based on race. Right.

    Loren Michael on
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  • ArugulaZArugulaZ Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    celery77 wrote: »
    and then you went on to say the artists need to accept some responsibility, which is equally asinine, because all that does is blame the group with the least amount of power and responsibility in creating the problems

    I fundamentally disagree. They provide the voice, the face, and frequently the lyrics. They aren't the only part of the problem, but when you say that artists who peddle the popularity of pimps and whores don't need to accept any responsibility, you're flat wrong.
    Those artists wouldn't have the voice they do if (a) it wasn't rather exclusively what the major labels and media outlets have chosen to support and (b) their decision for this support was based upon what the record-buying public (in this case, primarily white people) have chosen to spend their money on. If artists do choose to take a principled stance with their music, you know what happens? They don't get signed to a major which is equivalent to a media blackout, or in the rare instance they do get signed to a major, they're given extremely low priority and support compared to other artists on the label, and this still isn't getting in to how impossible it is for these artists to get their songs on mainstream media outlets. I mean when they play "All Falls Down" on MTV they edit this lyric:
    Kanye West wrote:
    We buy our way out of jail, but we can't buy freedom
    We'll buy a lot of clothes but we don't really need em
    The things we buy to cover up what's inside
    Cause they made us hate ourself and love they wealth
    That's why shorties holler, "Where the ballers at?"
    Drug dealers buy Jordans, crackheads buy crack
    But the white man get paid off of all a dat

    Do you know what is edited out of that?
    white

    Does it really matter? The term "the man" rarely refers to anything but the white establishment. The message Kanye was trying to convey still gets through, regardless of Viacom's interference.

    ArugulaZ on
    JR

    Same old site, great new look! Check out The Gameroom Blitz at:
    http://www.lakupo.com/grblitz
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Elkamil wrote: »
    Consumers make a huge part of any culture, and whites make up 70% of hip-hop consumers. I don't see the value in separating the black community from the rest of America when talking about the need to address the problem, considering that they're a minority, as far as sales are concerned.

    Yes, the black community is exporting a chunk of culture to the white community, and the white community is gobbling it up. I fail to see how this absolves the black community of any responsibility.

    Loren Michael on
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  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    ArugulaZ wrote: »
    Does it really matter? The term "the man" rarely refers to anything but the white establishment. The message Kanye was trying to convey still gets through, regardless of Viacom's interference.
    Which raises the question, why censor it? Still illustrates pretty clearly that the artists aren't really the ones choosing what is and is not shown on these media outlets.

    The Green Eyed Monster on
  • JinniganJinnigan Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Elkamil wrote: »
    Consumers make a huge part of any culture, and whites make up 70% of hip-hop consumers. I don't see the value in separating the black community from the rest of America when talking about the need to address the problem, considering that they're a minority, as far as sales are concerned.

    Yes, the black community is exporting a chunk of culture to the white community, and the white community is gobbling it up. I fail to see how this absolves the black community of any responsibility.

    Please start replying to posts which already deal with the points you're making.

    Jinnigan on
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  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Right, like it's only white guys that talk about a black community, and there's no cohesion whatsoever, anywhere, and certainly not based on race. Right.
    It's the whole "representatives of the race" thing, Loren, that is another one of those handy components of white privilege. Black community is something more imposed upon them from the outside than something they really choose for themselves, and either way it doesn't change the fact that your repeated suggestions that one black voice or a very small number of black voices speak for the group is dumb, misguided, and small-minded.

    The Green Eyed Monster on
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Jinnigan wrote: »
    Loren is making the assumption that media is a kind of silver bullet - that it's because of rappers rapping about pimps and hos that everyone is interested in being a pimp. I mean, it couldn't possibly be because people want to buy music about being a pimp that makes "pimping" music positive.

    I'm arguing that the artists aren't helpless and irrelevant to the cycle, as you apparently are. It couldn't possibly be that the "pimps and whores" lifestyle doesn't look incredibly glamorous. It couldn't possibly be that it's a source of role models and celebrities that make it look attractive.

    Loren Michael on
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  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    celery77 wrote: »
    Black community is something more imposed upon them from the outside than something they really choose for themselves

    I'm reasonably certain that it's a lot of both.

    Loren Michael on
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  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Jinnigan wrote: »
    Loren is making the assumption that media is a kind of silver bullet - that it's because of rappers rapping about pimps and hos that everyone is interested in being a pimp. I mean, it couldn't possibly be because people want to buy music about being a pimp that makes "pimping" music positive.

    I'm arguing that the artists aren't helpless and irrelevant to the cycle, as you apparently are. It couldn't possibly be that the "pimps and whores" lifestyle doesn't look incredibly glamorous. It couldn't possibly be that it's a source of role models and celebrities that make it look attractive.
    Loren the point is that there is a very large number of artists who are seriously embracing this "responsibility" that you speak of, and these artists are then in turn being completely frozen out by the major labels and media outlets, thus struggling to reach the sales numbers of their major label counterparts, hence your insistence on the artists' failing their responsibility in this instance is painfully asinine because it does absolutely nothing to address the real source of the problem.

    The Green Eyed Monster on
  • WillyGilliganWillyGilligan Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Jinnigan wrote: »
    Loren seems to be assuming that artists are popular by their own merits, not by the efforts of the label to market their music. As celery has said - there's an amazing amount of positive hip-hop out there, quality stuff that more often than not beats out the top 40 artists for production. But because it's not marketed by the huge-ass labels with money to buy air time, commercials, and posters, it doesn't do as well as the positive music.

    Loren is making the assumption that media is a kind of silver bullet - that it's because of rappers rapping about pimps and hos that everyone is interested in being a pimp. I mean, it couldn't possibly be because people want to buy music about being a pimp that makes "pimping" music positive.


    Personally, I believe that a lot of people are interested in being some version of cool, and the version that is currently in vogue is the pimp. I don't think a lot of people were sitting around thinking "There's this aching hole in my life, like I want to be working in some managerial capacity in the sex trade. What could that be?", and then some rapper says "Pimp!" and it all clicks together in their heads. I mean, look at crap like Pimp my Ride. The only connection that show has with pimping is that they make your car look lavish, like something a rich person with a desperate need for attention (pimp) would drive. People 'want' to buy music about pimping, drugs, and violence because the music is produced to hell and gone to be attractive almost regardless of its message and then marketed aggressively to get people interested and think "this is cool".

    Short version: media influences culture and is influenced in return. Been that way for a while now.

    WillyGilligan on
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Regardless, the whole "can't address a group" schlock is a load of crap. Blacks are a sizable voting block, there's a coherent culture (with a lot of variation), and advocacy groups pushing their interests. It's solipsist defensive bullshit.

    Loren Michael on
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  • ArugulaZArugulaZ Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    celery77 wrote: »
    ArugulaZ wrote: »
    Does it really matter? The term "the man" rarely refers to anything but the white establishment. The message Kanye was trying to convey still gets through, regardless of Viacom's interference.
    Which raises the question, why censor it? Still illustrates pretty clearly that the artists aren't really the ones choosing what is and is not shown on these media outlets.

    And that's the way it's always been. As one person said, "Freedom of the press is strictly reserved for those who own one." You control those outlets of communication, and you control practically everything that comes out of them. The internet has been a refreshing break from this kind of big media dominance and abuse, but with net neutrality currently in doubt, who knows how long that will last?

    Anyway, getting back to the topic at hand (sort of), Viacom has always been more than a little touchy about racial issues. Jhonen Vasquez, the creator of the far too short-lived animated series Invader Zim, had an anecdote about fighting with the network executives over a sight gag which they thought might be potentially offensive. Jhonen wanted to abandon Zim on a stretch of dirt road, next to a sign that said "Mexico: 24 Miles." Nickelodeon refused to let him use the joke, even though Vasquez himself is Mexican. Their objections never made much sense to him, and frankly, I have a hard time understanding them too.

    ArugulaZ on
    JR

    Same old site, great new look! Check out The Gameroom Blitz at:
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  • JinniganJinnigan Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Regardless, the whole "can't address a group" schlock is a load of crap. Blacks are a sizable voting block, there's a coherent culture (with a lot of variation), and advocacy groups pushing their interests. It's solipsist defensive bullshit.

    Most whites believe in God.

    That's a valid statement, right? I mean, the majority of America is Christian or Catholic, 85% of Americans don't believe in Evolution, and American politics these days certainly feature religion as a huge part.

    Jinnigan on
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  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Regardless, the whole "can't address a group" schlock is a load of crap. Blacks are a sizable voting block, there's a coherent culture (with a lot of variation), and advocacy groups pushing their interests. It's solipsist defensive bullshit.
    Loren, do you then want me and Jinn to spend the next 20 or so pages quoting black voices from the hip hop community advocating directly against the misogyny and sexism you're saying is the problem?

    The Green Eyed Monster on
  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Jinnigan wrote: »
    Regardless, the whole "can't address a group" schlock is a load of crap. Blacks are a sizable voting block, there's a coherent culture (with a lot of variation), and advocacy groups pushing their interests. It's solipsist defensive bullshit.

    Most whites believe in God.

    That's a valid statement, right? I mean, the majority of America is Christian or Catholic, 85% of Americans don't believe in Evolution, and American politics these days certainly feature religion as a huge part.
    As a white person, I'll be the first to apologize for that.

    Sorry guys.

    The Green Eyed Monster on
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    celery77 wrote: »
    Loren the point is that there is a very large number of artists who are seriously embracing this "responsibility" that you speak of, and these artists are then in turn being completely frozen out by the major labels and media outlets, thus struggling to reach the sales numbers of their major label counterparts, hence your insistence on the artists' failing their responsibility in this instance is painfully asinine because it does absolutely nothing to address the real source of the problem.

    Again, you assume that there isn't a feedback loop, that artists are completely helpless.

    Let's make an analogy with churches. Let's say you have some pastors and notable public figures who are actively hawking homophobia, let's call them Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and Chuck Norris.

    Obviously, if they didn't say what they do, their churches would hire someone else. Trinity Broadcasting Network would start looking into other aging martial artists to hawk its programs. If they want to be successful pastors and religious celebrities, it's pretty clear the message they should be selling, and any criticism on them would be entirely misplaced.

    Loren Michael on
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  • Zephyr_FateZephyr_Fate Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    celery77 wrote: »
    Regardless, the whole "can't address a group" schlock is a load of crap. Blacks are a sizable voting block, there's a coherent culture (with a lot of variation), and advocacy groups pushing their interests. It's solipsist defensive bullshit.
    Loren, do you then want me and Jinn to spend the next 20 or so pages quoting black voices from the hip hop community advocating directly against the misogyny and sexism you're saying is the problem?

    I'd like an example of black leaders speaking out against homophobia.

    Zephyr_Fate on
  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    celery77 wrote: »
    Regardless, the whole "can't address a group" schlock is a load of crap. Blacks are a sizable voting block, there's a coherent culture (with a lot of variation), and advocacy groups pushing their interests. It's solipsist defensive bullshit.
    Loren, do you then want me and Jinn to spend the next 20 or so pages quoting black voices from the hip hop community advocating directly against the misogyny and sexism you're saying is the problem?

    I'd like an example of black leaders speaking out against homophobia.
    It's a rapper, but I figure it still works, since we're talking about hip hop here:
    Common wrote:
    He spoke with his eyes, tear-filled
    A lump in his throat, his fear built
    My whole life it was in steel
    This ain't the way that men feel
    A feeling, he said he wish he could kill
    A feeling, not even time could heal
    This is how real life's supposed to be?
    For it to happen to someone close to me?
    So far we'd come, for him to tell me
    As he did, insecurity held me
    I felt like he failed me
    To the spirit, yelled help me
    I'd known him for like what seemed forever
    About going pro we dreamed together
    Never knew it would turn out like this
    For so long he tried to fight this
    Now there was no way for him to ignore it
    His parents found out and hated him for it
    How could I judge him? Had to accept him if I truly loved him
    No longer he said had he hated himself
    Through sexuality he liberated himself

    The Green Eyed Monster on
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    celery77 wrote: »
    Regardless, the whole "can't address a group" schlock is a load of crap. Blacks are a sizable voting block, there's a coherent culture (with a lot of variation), and advocacy groups pushing their interests. It's solipsist defensive bullshit.
    Loren, do you then want me and Jinn to spend the next 20 or so pages quoting black voices from the hip hop community advocating directly against the misogyny and sexism you're saying is the problem?

    I'd like an example of black leaders speaking out against homophobia.

    http://jasmynecannick.typepad.com/jasmynecannickcom/2007/02/more_hardaway_f.html

    Yesterday I called up the National NAACP office and asked them if they were going to condemn his statements. The answer I got from the acting communications director was that the NAACP gets asked to respond to a lot of issues and that they would examine it and ultimately it would be up to the President, Bruce Gordon to make the final decision.

    I really don’t want to criticize the NAACP, but what Hardaway said was just as bad as what Michael Richards said and look at how we got all up in arms over that.

    Going back to Shirley Q. Liquor and GLAAD, I’d have to say the same thing, that it’s hypocritical of the NAACP to not condemn Hardaway’s comments.

    ...

    http://jasmynecannick.typepad.com/jasmynecannickcom/2007/03/the_new_cointel.html

    Well apparently my column ruffled a few feathers at the top because no sooner had my column been released then my boss starts receiving calls from the NAACP leadership complaining about my article.

    Loren Michael on
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  • JinniganJinnigan Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    celery77 wrote: »
    Loren the point is that there is a very large number of artists who are seriously embracing this "responsibility" that you speak of, and these artists are then in turn being completely frozen out by the major labels and media outlets, thus struggling to reach the sales numbers of their major label counterparts, hence your insistence on the artists' failing their responsibility in this instance is painfully asinine because it does absolutely nothing to address the real source of the problem.

    Again, you assume that there isn't a feedback loop, that artists are completely helpless.

    Let's make an analogy with churches. Let's say you have some pastors and notable public figures who are actively hawking homophobia, let's call them Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and Chuck Norris.

    Obviously, if they didn't say what they do, their churches would hire someone else. Trinity Broadcasting Network would start looking into other aging martial artists to hawk its programs. If they want to be successful pastors and religious celebrities, it's pretty clear the message they should be selling, and any criticism on them would be entirely misplaced.

    The only part your metaphor is missing is the bit where Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell meet with tremendous success, and the ones who are trying to do the right thing (let's call him Richard Dawkins) meets with minimal success.

    Jinnigan on
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  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited April 2007
    Elkamil wrote: »
    Consumers make a huge part of any culture, and whites make up 70% of hip-hop consumers. I don't see the value in separating the black community from the rest of America when talking about the need to address the problem, considering that they're a minority, as far as sales are concerned.

    Yes, the black community is exporting a chunk of culture to the white community, and the white community is gobbling it up. I fail to see how this absolves the black community of any responsibility.

    I don't think the 'black community' is exporting misogyny to the 'white community'. I think music executives are marketing to America what America likes.

    Elki on
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  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Elkamil wrote: »
    Elkamil wrote: »
    Consumers make a huge part of any culture, and whites make up 70% of hip-hop consumers. I don't see the value in separating the black community from the rest of America when talking about the need to address the problem, considering that they're a minority, as far as sales are concerned.

    Yes, the black community is exporting a chunk of culture to the white community, and the white community is gobbling it up. I fail to see how this absolves the black community of any responsibility.

    I don't think the 'black community' is exporting misogyny to the 'white community'. I think music executives are marketing to America what America likes.
    No Elkamil, you and your devil music is the reason me and my girlfriend broke up. Way to go asshole.

    The Green Eyed Monster on
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Jinnigan wrote: »
    celery77 wrote: »
    Loren the point is that there is a very large number of artists who are seriously embracing this "responsibility" that you speak of, and these artists are then in turn being completely frozen out by the major labels and media outlets, thus struggling to reach the sales numbers of their major label counterparts, hence your insistence on the artists' failing their responsibility in this instance is painfully asinine because it does absolutely nothing to address the real source of the problem.

    Again, you assume that there isn't a feedback loop, that artists are completely helpless.

    Let's make an analogy with churches. Let's say you have some pastors and notable public figures who are actively hawking homophobia, let's call them Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and Chuck Norris.

    Obviously, if they didn't say what they do, their churches would hire someone else. Trinity Broadcasting Network would start looking into other aging martial artists to hawk its programs. If they want to be successful pastors and religious celebrities, it's pretty clear the message they should be selling, and any criticism on them would be entirely misplaced.

    The only part your metaphor is missing is the bit where Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell meet with tremendous success, and the ones who are trying to do the right thing (let's call him Richard Dawkins) meets with minimal success.

    The analogy involves Churches. Dawkins would be like bringing up Muse in a discussion about hip-hop. The alternative is obviously liberal Christians. It's not incredibly easy to find megachurches that don't tend to send the same kind of homophobic message.

    Loren Michael on
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  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Elkamil wrote: »
    Elkamil wrote: »
    Consumers make a huge part of any culture, and whites make up 70% of hip-hop consumers. I don't see the value in separating the black community from the rest of America when talking about the need to address the problem, considering that they're a minority, as far as sales are concerned.

    Yes, the black community is exporting a chunk of culture to the white community, and the white community is gobbling it up. I fail to see how this absolves the black community of any responsibility.

    I don't think the 'black community' is exporting misogyny to the 'white community'. I think music executives are marketing to America what America likes.

    I don't think it's an either/or situation.

    Loren Michael on
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