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  • duderdude2duderdude2 Registered User regular
    edited September 2005
    MomGamer wrote:
    For those of us who have survived E3, PAX was a more than welcome relief.

    You're clearly not speaking for everyone as I know many who would disagree. I just hope you understand that.
    MomGamer wrote:
    Sorry - I forgot. The Turbine gal was not stereotypically gorgeous. And that Sony gal was obviously there to keep the booth-rats in line. Real gals who play real games and really work in the industry were all over.

    What point are you addressing? I only mentioned the Frag Dolls, which are indeed "stereotypically gorgeous" and are present as mere tools of Ubi-Soft. Of course there were other females there, but the companies employing them weren't using their sex appeal as marketing.
    MomGamer wrote:
    Real gals who play real games and really work in the industry were all over.

    Relative to a men's only gym maybe. Kidding aside, that's also not relevant to the discussion. Furthermore, clearly the amount of men out-weighed the women by a factor of at least 5-1, if not 10-1. Again though, irrelevant.
    MomGamer wrote:
    As far as females doing the actual work of the show, I guess you all missed the female developer for Turbine that was demoing "Lord of the Rings", and the gal who was running the Sony booth Saturday morning.

    Case in point, that's two females.

    MomGamer wrote:
    For those who can't figure out why girls would be offended by those Nintendo gals, try to think about it this way. You're at a car show. Instead of gals in bikini's draped all over everything, put oiled-up, steroid-fed Chippendale's dancers. Little bow-tie and all. Have him gyrate over and start very ernestly explaining the new push-button shift on that fancy car. Maybe he'll even put his hand on your shoulder as he's pointing out the various cool features on the new and improved gauges. Would you deal well with that?

    False analogy, specifically because Nintendo's "gals" are not anything like you've described. Hell, not even the Tecmo DoA girls are even remotely close to your false description.

    You make it sound like a porno, when there's nothing further from the truth. At the Nintendo booth, there's no "gyrating," "bikinis," touching, and "pointing out of cool features." Clearly you either haven't attended E3, or your aging brain is starting to falter.

    MomGamer wrote:
    Nintendo's gals just have a better script. Most of them don't know how to boot the machine they're demoing. They've been given a rail to lead you through. So you feel so much better because there's someone to lead you down the garden path gently rather than blatantly dragging you down it by the hair?

    Strawmen fallacy. Furthermore, I hope you intended your "booting the machine" point to be tongue-in-cheek, because that is in fact something they had to do on a regular basis, when a game demo would crash for instance.

    And calling their knowledge of the game a "rail," or "script" (despite it being nonlinear) is rather inaccurate. The ones I've encountered knew every facet of the demo on display, knew the release date, and features of that particular game. In short, they were able to answer all of my questions without hesitation or consulting a "script."

    duderdude2 on
  • de4dmeta1de4dmeta1 Registered User regular
    edited September 2005
    duderdude2 wrote:
    MomGamer wrote:
    For those who can't figure out why girls would be offended by those Nintendo gals, try to think about it this way. You're at a car show. Instead of gals in bikini's draped all over everything, put oiled-up, steroid-fed Chippendale's dancers. Little bow-tie and all. Have him gyrate over and start very ernestly explaining the new push-button shift on that fancy car. Maybe he'll even put his hand on your shoulder as he's pointing out the various cool features on the new and improved gauges. Would you deal well with that?

    False analogy, specifically because Nintendo's "gals" are not anything like you've described. Hell, not even the Tecmo DoA girls are even remotely close to your false description.

    You make it sound like a porno, when there's nothing further from the truth. At the Nintendo booth, there's no "gyrating," "bikinis," touching, and "pointing out of cool features." Clearly you either haven't attended E3, or your aging brain is starting to falter.

    Actually, I think it's quite a valid analogy, just think about it for a second. MomGamer just described the male equivalent of the 'bikini boothbabe'. Now, they might be wearing more clothes than that, but it's a valid analogy - your average 'boothbabe' is usually the stereotypical image of beauty, so why wouldn't a 'boothdude' be the stereotypical image of manlyness? (Tall, ripped muscles, all that jazz.)

    One more thing - your habit of working small personal attacks into your argument is making you not only look like an asshole who's just looking for an argument, but makes your position seem a bit less valid, at least in my eyes.

    de4dmeta1 on
  • duderdude2duderdude2 Registered User regular
    edited September 2005
    de4dmeta1 wrote:
    Actually, I think it's quite a valid analogy.

    No, it's not. It would have been a potentially valid analogy had her description not been of a "Nintendo gal," as she claimed. Her description was completley counter of the term she was defining, hence the false analog.
    de4dmeta1 wrote:
    One more thing - your habit of working small personal attacks into your argument is making you not only look like an asshole who's just looking for an argument, but makes your position seem a bit less valid, at least in my eyes

    What personal attacks? The only direct one I see is the "falty brain," which is a valid concern because she made that stuff up. The Nintendo "gals" were nothing like she described, so either she either lied about visiting the Nintendo booth, or is mis-remembering. And I'm fully aware I write in a very poignent style, I don't play nice, but I play fair. I'll call someone on their crap as I see it, and that's exactly what MomGamer has done.

    Furthermore, attacking someone may affect your opinion of me, which is fine. However, it does nothing to discredit my arguements. No matter how much you might dislike me, my stances are completley valid and are more importantly, being backed by actual material, and not made up hyperbole.

    duderdude2 on
  • The GeekThe Geek Oh-Two Crew, Omeganaut Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2005
    It's funny how duder is trying to sound all smart using debate terms and logic and such, yet his very first sentence in this thread was to try to insult Doc by implying that he's gay.

    The Geek on
    BLM - ACAB
  • duderdude2duderdude2 Registered User regular
    edited September 2005
    The Geek wrote:
    It's funny how duder is trying to sound all smart using debate terms and logic and such, yet his very first sentence in this thread was to try to insult Doc by implying that he's gay.

    Because I didn't intend for this to end up as a debate.

    And what's this "trying to sound smart" nonesense about. There's no trying about it, the way I communicate is a result of the classes and experiences I've subjected myself to. The terms I use are quite real, and are being applied in a practical manner. I'm not trying to appear to be "better" or "smarter" than anyone else; I just debate in what I would consider a logical fashion.

    And for the record, I did not mean to insinuate that Doc was gay. I was playfully using the term to simply exress that having more females would not necessarrly be a bad thing. Again, the term "sausage fest" has no basis in sexuality, or sexual orientation, and even if it did, I did not intent for it to be seen that way. And even if I had, it would be a joke, yes, even experienced debaters make funnies.

    duderdude2 on
  • JinxJinx Registered User
    edited September 2005
    duderdude2 wrote:
    the Frag Dolls are there to simply plug Ubi-Soft's products, and they're dressed even more scantily than the booth babes I've been referecing.

    i...wait, what? dressed scantily? what do the booth babes wear where you're from? full body armor and ballistic helmets?

    yes, we were there plugging ubisoft products. we did not demo the games. we sat our butts down in chairs and played the games, and competed in a tournament. if that makes us booth babes, cool. i hope every booth babe at e3 next year is that awesome.

    Jinx on
    The Guitar Zeros << My friend's rad band that everyone should <3
    linkstick.gif
  • The GeekThe Geek Oh-Two Crew, Omeganaut Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2005
    The difference, Jinx, is that you were paid to do so.

    If you can honestly say that, if you had never been involved with Ubisoft, you would have gone to PAX of your own volition to enjoy the con and hang out with other nerds, then cool.

    If you cannot say that, then you are a booth babe, just a different variety.

    The thing with the Frag Dolls is that it's hard to tell which of those two options is reality.

    The Geek on
    BLM - ACAB
  • duderdude2duderdude2 Registered User regular
    edited September 2005
    Jinx FD wrote:
    i...wait, what? dressed scantily? what do the booth babes wear where you're from? full body armor and ballistic helmets?

    Hey, how's it going. I was hoping you guys would show up eventually :)

    Look, I don't think you guys dressed "scantily," just moreso in relation to Nintendo's booth babes at E3 (who are pretty much fully dressed). So I didn't mean to make you guys out to be cheap whores or anything. I seriously respect what you guys do, but even as you mention, your main purpose was to "plug ubisoft products."

    Also, none of you guys could be considered "ugly" (something that can't be said for many gamers, haha). So Ubi-soft is using your pretty image combined with your passion of gaming as tools to promote their products. That's similar to the "boothbabes" I cite in that they're a bunch of pretty faces who also give the impression of being gamers (note that I realize that you guys are actually gamers, whereas most boothbabes aren't, but many give a convincing impression of being one).

    duderdude2 on
  • JinxJinx Registered User
    edited September 2005
    The Geek wrote:
    If you can honestly say that, if you had never been involved with Ubisoft, you would have gone to PAX of your own volition to enjoy the con and hang out with other nerds, then cool.

    i was saving my money to go to pax last year before i became a frag doll, so, yes. i would go to pax no matter what, and i make sure everyone else i know in the world goes too, because it's just that good an experience.

    and duder: if you put on makeup you'd be pretty too. i'm scrawny and i have terrible skin, but people don't notice that part because they don't want to. if ubisoft wanted pretty bunnies they could have done so much better than me it's sad. i'm sure they do prefer pretty girls promoting their products, but they send me off anyway.

    anyway, what i really wanted to say was that no where on this earth (except maybe the middle east) have i ever heard of t-shirts (not even the muscle tees we had last year, but sleeved tees) and jeans being scantily clad. we've chosen not to get tarted up. i'm sure we could if we wanted to, but we don't. who games like that?

    Jinx on
    The Guitar Zeros << My friend's rad band that everyone should <3
    linkstick.gif
  • The GeekThe Geek Oh-Two Crew, Omeganaut Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2005
    Jinx FD wrote:
    The Geek wrote:
    If you can honestly say that, if you had never been involved with Ubisoft, you would have gone to PAX of your own volition to enjoy the con and hang out with other nerds, then cool.

    i was saving my money to go to pax last year before i became a frag doll, so, yes. i would go to pax no matter what, and i make sure everyone else i know in the world goes too, because it's just that good an experience.

    Out of curiosity then, would you say that all the FDs are like you in that respect? Or are some of them more booth babe-ish?

    The Geek on
    BLM - ACAB
  • de4dmeta1de4dmeta1 Registered User regular
    edited September 2005
    duderdude2 wrote:
    de4dmeta1 wrote:
    One more thing - your habit of working small personal attacks into your argument is making you not only look like an asshole who's just looking for an argument, but makes your position seem a bit less valid, at least in my eyes

    What personal attacks?
    duderdude2 wrote:
    Legacy wrote:
    The Frag Dolls are half gamers and half marketing tools. They would be there on their own if they weren't employed by Ubisoft I'm sure, but they wouldn't be as noticable.

    Can we just lock this please?


    Don't read the topic if you can't handle it.
    I don't know about the rest of you, but I read that as a bit of a snide comment. Not the full blown 'shut up, ur a fukkin' fag' kind of personal attack, but still a tiny bit malicious. Maybe I read it wrong, who knows, but there, and in your response to MomGamer, it seemed like you were not only implying that their positions were invalid (which, in itself, isn't a problem), but that the posters themselves were, for lack of a better word, idiots. In the case of Legacy, implying that he'd bitten off more than he could chew. As for your response to MomGamer, there's no problem, with '[calling] someone on their crap, as [you] see it', but there was no need for the somewhat insulting implication of senility.
    Furthermore, attacking someone may affect your opinion of me, which is fine. However, it does nothing to discredit my arguements. No matter how much you might dislike me, my stances are completley valid and are more importantly, being backed by actual material, and not made up hyperbole.
    Your argument may be as solid as anyone else's, but insulting those you're arguing with in the course of a debate makes me question why the point is being debated in the first place. It's worth noting that, while a man may have the most unassailable argument in the history of mankind, if he goes about arguing like an ass, no-one's going to listen to what he says as seriously as they would if he hadn't insulted anyone. To use a simpler phrase, no-one can really hear what you're saying when you have your foot in your mouth.

    de4dmeta1 on
  • duderdude2duderdude2 Registered User regular
    edited September 2005
    Jinx FD wrote:
    and duder: if you put on makeup you'd be pretty too.

    Awe, shucks, you're making me blush.

    But no amount of makeup is going to help someone lose 20lbs. All the frag girls are slim and trim; I don't see any overweight gamers being represented, which suggests your image (even with makeup) is being used as a promotional tool.
    Jinx FD wrote:
    if ubisoft wanted pretty bunnies they could have done so much better than me it's sad.

    I realize this, and I respect Ubisoft for having actual gamer girls represent their products. However, it is a limited talent pool, and you guys probably represent the pinnacle of gaming girls, in terms of attractiveness. Again, it's all about the publicity.
    Jinx FD wrote:
    anyway, what i really wanted to say was that no where on this earth (except maybe the middle east) have i ever heard of t-shirts (not even the muscle tees we had last year, but sleeved tees) and jeans being scantily clad. we've chosen not to get tarted up. i'm sure we could if we wanted to, but we don't. who games like that?

    Yes, yes, I agree. What I meant was that relative to Nintendo's own booth babes, you guys were "scantily" dressed. I only used that word because it's one often used in conjunction with "boothbabes". I didn't mean to suggest that you guys were at all "scantily" clothed, but was using that as an example of how far Nintendo's boothbabes were from typical "boothbabe" caliber.

    duderdude2 on
  • JinxJinx Registered User
    edited September 2005
    i'm the biggest PA fan, and probably the nerdiest, but i'd say every one of them are real gamers. i'm probably one of the least competitive about it, when it comes down to it. it sucks the prettiest girl can kick my ass in any game i play. :(

    Jinx on
    The Guitar Zeros << My friend's rad band that everyone should <3
    linkstick.gif
  • duderdude2duderdude2 Registered User regular
    edited September 2005
    de4dmeta1 wrote:
    I don't know about the rest of you, but I read that as a bit of a snide comment. Not the full blown 'shut up, ur a fukkin' fag' kind of personal attack, but still a tiny bit malicious. Maybe I read it wrong, who knows...

    I'll be the first to admit I'm an asshole, but I seriously don't intent to be as "malicious" as my comments may sound, but I stand by them. For instance, you cited my "don't read the topic if you can't handle it" line, which I feel is justified in light of someone who wished to head off any further discussion on the topic, or in other words, avoiding the issue. My response was direct and to the point, and not particular offensive in my opinion.
    de4dmeta1 wrote:
    and in your response to MomGamer, it seemed like you were not only implying that their positions were invalid (which, in itself, isn't a problem), but that the posters themselves were, for lack of a better word, idiots...there was no need for the somewhat insulting implication of senility

    I don't think they're "idiots," but some of them were making some rather inaccurate claims, which could be considered an "idiotic trait." In the case of MomGamer, I really don't think she's senile, but she was still presenting facts which had no basis in reality, which suggested she's elaborating extensively for the purpose of her argument, which I find to be an offense tactic.

    de4dmeta1 wrote:
    Your argument may be as solid as anyone else's, but insulting those you're arguing with in the course of a debate makes me question why the point is being debated in the first place. It's worth noting that, while a man may have the most unassailable argument in the history of mankind, if he goes about arguing like an ass, no-one's going to listen to what he says as seriously as they would if he hadn't insulted anyone. To use a simpler phrase, no-one can really hear what you're saying when you have your foot in your mouth

    I agree to an extent, but I don't think I've really been that offense, at least not by message board standards. It is true that I would not be using as much venom were this a real life debate, but that's only because of the standards set by that medium. There's nothing wrong with throwing in an insult to augment a point, so long as the point is well grounded and stands by itself, without relying on the insult for structure.

    duderdude2 on
  • de4dmeta1de4dmeta1 Registered User regular
    edited September 2005
    duderdude2 wrote:
    I agree, but I don't think I've really been that offense, at least not by message board standards. It is true that I would not be using as much venom were this a real life debate, but that's only because of the standards set by that medium. There's nothing wrong with throwing in an insult to accentate a point, so long as the point is well grounded and defendable.
    No, you haven't been that offensive as of yet (hence the term 'small personal attack', which may have been an exaggeration), but you still could've easily gone without it. I think any arguments over this now would be a bit of a moot point, so let's just leave it where it is.

    As for using insults to accentuate a point, it can completely derail a debate, as proven by this line of posts. Perhaps a good reason to steer away from it?

    de4dmeta1 on
  • duderdude2duderdude2 Registered User regular
    edited September 2005
    de4dmeta1 wrote:
    As for using insults to accentuate a point, it can completely derail a debate, as proven by this line of posts. Perhaps a good reason to steer away from it?

    Well, what else were we going to discuss, I think the boothbabe issue has been beaten like a dead horse ;)

    Like I said, if this were a debate I were completely vested in, I'd use a different approach, but seeing as this is a message board, I didn't think they'd be that big of a deal, especially since most topics get derailed anyway. And again, I found some of the debating tactics used to be "insulting," but I addressed them head-on and in the context of the "debate." It depends entirely on what one finds offensive. For instance, I'm not bothered by personal attacks myself, I just shrug them off and look at the deeper issue. The only thing that offends me is fabricating facts to make a point, which I consider a serious issue. Others may not. Again, it's subjective.

    When it comes to arguing on a message board, it's pretty much a free for all. There's no rules, no guidelines, and anyone can chime in at any moment. I think overall this topic went pretty well (as compared to say a thread on GameFaqs, or even elsewhere on this own forum).

    duderdude2 on
  • ctishmanctishman Registered User
    edited September 2005
    I go to PAX to play games and meet people and to attend the panels and concerts.

    It's not a trade show, and I'm not there to buy anything. It's about having fun, and I personally don't think I could relax and do that if I were being glared at by a bunch of bored ditzy model types in thongs.

    ctishman on
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  • AzioAzio Registered User regular
    edited September 2005
    Not to mention having buzzphrases like "HD ERA" shoved down your throat by J Allard.

    Azio on
  • BeatByAGrrlBeatByAGrrl Registered User
    edited September 2005
    Doc wrote:
    DiscoDave wrote:
    I'm all for the down to earth "for gamers, by gamers" feeling of PAX, but really...the occasional booth babe wouldn't hurt THAT much, would it? *sob*

    I feel embarrassed for everyone involved when I see that stuff.
    I agree. And that sort of stuff is what discourages REAL women from showing up at these events.

    BeatByAGrrl on
    when you punish a person for dreaming his dream, don't expect him to thank or forgive you. the best ever death metal band out of denton will in time both outpace and outlive you. hail satan!
  • ViscountalphaViscountalpha Registered User
    edited October 2005
    play the gameboy micro that was there? I thought it was pretty cool how the head of the nintendo booth wasn't supposed to show the one that he had to the public but if you got to talking with the guy he would pass it around in a small group. its pretty sweet. it feels like the most expensive gameboy ever made. they had to follow suit because of the feel of the PSP.

    To un-hijack this thread. it seems like a very expensive SP. Whats the point? wheres more functionality? A ds is a better buy at 30$ more. Im betting the DS will mount into the revolution as a touch pad controller.

    Micro is a macro waste of money. Skip it...

    Viscountalpha on
  • MomGamerMomGamer Registered User regular
    edited October 2005
    Not disputing that. But for some people that's what they're after. I've never found a good enough ROI on any handheld system yet (a friend is trying to sell me his SP for $30, and I might do that).

    I carry enough tackle around in my pockets as it is. ;)

    MomGamer on
    I think being sucked into a black hole would bring people closer, but it won't help us like each other more. - Mobo
  • LegacyLegacy SCP Of The Digital Frontier The Grid(Seattle)Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2005
    MomGamer wrote:
    Not disputing that. But for some people that's what they're after. I've never found a good enough ROI on any handheld system yet (a friend is trying to sell me his SP for $30, and I might do that).

    I carry enough tackle around in my pockets as it is. ;)

    Don't do it! Buy a new SP with one of the much, much, much, much, much better screens. :o

    Legacy on
    Can we get the chemicals in. 'Cause anything's better than this.
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