Yes buying more than one thing that is meant to be consumed is just fucking mind-blowingly impossible.
I know a Mike McSomething in Arizona that smokes plastic cigarettes. Do you smoke plastic cigarettes, too? Because you guys could hang out and smoke plastic cigarettes together and talk about how your names are almost the same.
So I was over at my friend's house for our Thursday game, flipping through phb3 deciding how to go about making a monk, as I would like to replace my relatively boring summoner wizard with a monk once this module is over. While there, I came to the conclusion that monks are actually kind of broken.
Stone fist flurry of blows: does 3+str mod damage to a target. +2h/4p/6e if you choose to hit someone besides the guy you hit with the triggering attack, but meh, let's assume you hit the same guy because you're a striker.
Ki weapon: Can be placed on any weapon. Property: Once per turn your flurry of blows deals two additional points of damage. Notice the lack of the word, "item." Dual wield 2 of these.
Mighty Strikes Ki Focus: Property" You do 1 additional point of damage with flurry of blows, again without the item descriptor.
Club feat (I forget the name :P): Deal 2 additional damage with flurry of blows while wielding a club.
All of this stuff is easily gotten during heroic tier, as, since the crap you need off of ki weapon is a property, and you'll probably never use them to hit anything, you can dual wield +1 ki clubs (or a club and spear, or a club and dagger/shuriken if you are inclined to take advantage of a heroic or paragon feat to give your flurry some range). The only thing you need to stay on top of is your focus.
So, easily gotten by level 5 or 6, you can do base 3 + 4 str mod, + 5 from items, +2 from feats, for a total of 14 damage on flurry of blows. Compared to a rogue, whose average sneak attack damage with 1 feat is 9. But wait, there's more!
At paragon you can take 1 of 2 str based paragon paths, doesn't matter which, both add 2 damage. You also now hit 2 targets with flurry of blows, which is real easy to do with the shuriken feat that opens up at this tier and lets you flurry a guy up to 5 squares away if wielding a shuriken or dagger. If you have a single target you can take brutal flurry or some shit that adds another 2p/4e damage if you opt to only hit a single target. This is the end of damage buffs that I am aware of, but let's add it up at 30, at which point your flurry is a burst 1.
base 3, +8 str, + 5 items, +2 feat, +2 class = Baseline of 20. Which is slightly behind the rogues average of 22.5.
Except this ignores that flurry is a burst 1 at epic. That you can hit 1 guy up to 5 squares off in guam which guarantees you 2 hits. That any dudes you hit that weren't the target of the triggering power take an additional 6 damage. And even if there is just 1 guy, you can forego all this crap to get you up to 24, which now in fact beats sneak attack. To say nothing of the fact that outside of a brutal scoundrel bugbear, your powers will be doing better dice worth of damage than a rogue would.
This also all ignores that I forgot to check and see if flurry of blows was an implement power, which would mean another +6 damage if it is (though I suspect it isn't since it lacks an attack roll).
In summary; Finally! An implement striker with damage worth a damn.
Arkady on
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
edited March 2010
So, easily gotten by level 5 or 6, you can do base 3 + 4 str mod, + 5 from items, +2 from feats, for a total of 14 damage on flurry of blows. Compared to a rogue, whose average sneak attack damage with 1 feat is 9. But wait, there's more!
Pretty sure this is wrong with the new errata; you can't get the same untyped bonus twice, so the two Ki-clubs can't be combined like that.
So, easily gotten by level 5 or 6, you can do base 3 + 4 str mod, + 5 from items, +2 from feats, for a total of 14 damage on flurry of blows. Compared to a rogue, whose average sneak attack damage with 1 feat is 9. But wait, there's more!
Pretty sure this is wrong with the new errata; you can't get the same untyped bonus twice, so the two Ki-clubs can't be combined like that.
Good errata, but that, at worst knocks 3 points off, which still leaves you ahead of rogues at heroic and only slightly behind on single target at epic.
Arkady on
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
So, easily gotten by level 5 or 6, you can do base 3 + 4 str mod, + 5 from items, +2 from feats, for a total of 14 damage on flurry of blows. Compared to a rogue, whose average sneak attack damage with 1 feat is 9. But wait, there's more!
Pretty sure this is wrong with the new errata; you can't get the same untyped bonus twice, so the two Ki-clubs can't be combined like that.
Good errata, but that, at worst knocks 3 points off, which still leaves you ahead of rogues at heroic and only slightly behind on single target at epic.
Eh? I wasn't saying your point was destroyed by the errata, just that one little bit was off.
Also, I'm not seeing the problem with being in Rogue-territory for damage levels at all. Plus you still have to find (or make) all the relevant bits and take a couple of feats to do it too, which I'm sure some people will consider to be a waste. Can't wait to see the new Monk stuff turn up in CB though; I kinda want to play a monk somewhere.
Also, has anyone heard anything about Assassin Hybrid stuffs yet?
You wouldn't be comparing a pimped out Flurry of Blows to raw Backstabber SA damage. In addition to Weapon Talent and Nimble Blade, Mid-heroic Rogue would add either his STR mod to SA's from Brutal Scoundrel or his CHA mod from using a Footpad's Friend. So the Monk's 8 + secondary stat on FoB Is compared to the Rogue's 9 + secondary stat on SA.
This is before you factor in powers:
Rogue also has [W] + Stat + Off Stat at-wills, which the monk doesn't have unless he uses Dancing Cobra and eats an OA.
Not saying the Rogue is necessarily always better than the monk (He probably is, the monk is kinda meh and they are both behind alot of the top striker builds) but your original +striker damage comparison was a bit off.
Drink your Pepsi and have a fit over a non-issue, I'm not gonna stop ya anymore.
I asked whether the rules supported something. You said some stuff that wasn't at all related to the rules, and now are trying to indicate that I'm having a fit.
If you didn't want to have this discussion, you didn't have to pretend you knew how consumables worked.
You throwing a tant?
(in all seriousness, you worded something very poorly, and made a silly assumption that a character could consume an infinite number of items in one turn as part of a free action. While that may even bizarrely be RAW, no sane DM or player would think it was legit!)
--
Can we all agree to ban the "what if people are jerks" defense for rules discussions? It's neither productive nor helpful.
Look, if something seems game-breakingly awesome, it's probably likely to be errated or not work the way you are thinking. Why start a hot & heavy e-debate over a rule that you know you are interpreting in a silly goose way?
Point out a broken rule, but don't sit there and defend your interpretation as the only way to play, especially when it's counter-intuitive!
My dnd group fell apart mid-campaign due to social bullshit.
And I'm not likely to find other friends interested in playing, and would rather not play with people I don't already know.
So now I have a shitton of awesome planned material in which I invested a pretty considerable amount of time sitting around which will probably never get used.
And I keep reading dnd stuff and wanting to write more but it seems like a bit of a pointless endeavor given the circumstances.
My dnd group fell apart mid-campaign due to social bullshit.
And I'm not likely to find other friends interested in playing, and would rather not play with people I don't already know.
So now I have a shitton of awesome planned material in which I invested a pretty considerable amount of time sitting around which will probably never get used.
And I keep reading dnd stuff and wanting to write more but it seems like a bit of a pointless endeavor given the circumstances.
Sad DM is sad
Our gaming store has a huge posting board where people that are looking for players leave some info about the campaign and their contact info, they usually get a really good response.
edit: OT Question - Are there any detailed rules/rulings regarding vertical component of flight? Specifically the cost in squares of flying up.
Moving vertically with a movement speed that allows it is just like moving horizontally. Each square up costs one square of movement, but you can move diagonally to move in the horizontal plane at the same time.
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited March 2010
edit: OT Question - Are there any detailed rules/rulings regarding vertical component of flight? Specifically the cost in squares of flying up.
It's just like any other kind of movement, 1 square to fly up etc as Optimus pointed out. You can also fly "diagonally" up, moving both horizontally and vertically at the same time. This makes flying creatures incredibly mobile.
edit: OT Question - Are there any detailed rules/rulings regarding vertical component of flight? Specifically the cost in squares of flying up.
It's just like any other kind of movement, 1 square to fly up etc as Optimus pointed out. You can also fly "diagonally" up, moving both horizontally and vertically at the same time. This makes flying creatures incredibly mobile.
Yea, that's how I've been doing it (and with a square cost of 0 for falling). But I was hoping for an answer that let me infinitely move a flying creature upwards. THANKS GUYS.
edit: looks like it's arbitrary vertical teleportation~ (don't ask).
tastydonuts on
“I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
edit: OT Question - Are there any detailed rules/rulings regarding vertical component of flight? Specifically the cost in squares of flying up.
It's just like any other kind of movement, 1 square to fly up etc as Optimus pointed out. You can also fly "diagonally" up, moving both horizontally and vertically at the same time. This makes flying creatures incredibly mobile.
Yea, that's how I've been doing it (and with a square cost of 0 for falling). But I was hoping for an answer that let me infinitely move a flying creature upwards. THANKS GUYS.
edit: looks like it's arbitrary vertical teleportation~ (don't ask).
If you want the guy to be able to go vertically up a great deal, so much that it exceeds his move speed, I think you can give him a move action (soar? something that doesn't sound lame) which lets him shoot straight up.
Actually wow that would be an awesome power for a dragon that could make him quite challenging to kill without luring him into a close quarters area.
Maybe re-create the way birds soar straight up, "you must move forward one square, and lose one square of altitude, first"
If you want the guy to be able to go vertically up a great deal, so much that it exceeds his move speed, I think you can give him a move action (soar? something that doesn't sound lame) which lets him shoot straight up.
Actually wow that would be an awesome power for a dragon that could make him quite challenging to kill without luring him into a close quarters area.
Maybe re-create the way birds soar straight up, "you must move forward one square, and lose one square of altitude, first"
looks like it's arbitrary vertical teleportation~
;p
edit: and yes, it totally does pop a close burst 5 prone attack vs fort.
edit2: I guess I should have spoilered that or something. ah well. you now know that there's a 50% chance that something you fight will do that. better stay away from wide open areas with high and/or non existent ceilings
tastydonuts on
“I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
edit: OT Question - Are there any detailed rules/rulings regarding vertical component of flight? Specifically the cost in squares of flying up.
It's just like any other kind of movement, 1 square to fly up etc as Optimus pointed out. You can also fly "diagonally" up, moving both horizontally and vertically at the same time. This makes flying creatures incredibly mobile.
Oh god for a moment there this post made me consider the effects of a hex grid on 3d movement. My brains.
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HachfaceNot the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking ofDammit, Shepard!Registered Userregular
Right, but donuts wants the monster to be able to move a near arbitrary number of vertical spaces straight up, so it's actually one move, kind of like a charge. Or, just a move action that lets it exceed it's move rate, by being a "Move: On a straight vertical line the monster moves 12 squares"
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HachfaceNot the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking ofDammit, Shepard!Registered Userregular
Right, but donuts wants the monster to be able to move a near arbitrary number of vertical spaces straight up, so it's actually one move, kind of like a charge.
A standard flyback attack will accomplish this by itself as long as you give it a sufficiently absurd speed. 20 ought to do it.
I think the point though is that he doesn't want it to have an absurd speed He wants it to have a normal speed but be able to go in a straight vertical line a greater distance. (My head is going to asplode if this continues!)
I'm familiar with flybys/etc, but this is a different case. One can assume if he was comfortable with giving it a speed of 20 he would simply do so!
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HachfaceNot the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking ofDammit, Shepard!Registered Userregular
edited March 2010
Seriously though, would 3d movement with a hex grid be as nightmarish as I'm imagining?
Because I do not think you can form a platonic solid from hexagons.
There was talk on rpg.net that an upcoming Dragon article would give rules for 4e on a hex grid but the existence of 3d movement alone makes me doubt that.
I think the point though is that he doesn't want it to have an absurd speed He wants it to have a normal speed but be able to go in a straight vertical line a greater distance. (My head is going to asplode if this continues!)
I'm familiar with flybys/etc, but this is a different case. One can assume if he was comfortable with giving it a speed of 20 he would simply do so!
yep. I actually have done that previously with both horiz and vert movement to compensate but it's sloppy.
ah well.
edit: if anything other than squares, 4E should implement octal movement, since it already pretty much does that anyway. but an octal gri would be horrible. so... yea.
tastydonuts on
“I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
Seriously though, would 3d movement with a hex grid be as nightmarish as I'm imagining?
Because I do not think you can form a platonic solid from hexagons.
There was talk on rpg.net that an upcoming Dragon article would give rules for 4e on a hex grid but the existence of 3d movement alone makes me doubt that.
Yes buying more than one thing that is meant to be consumed is just fucking mind-blowingly impossible.
I know a Mike McSomething in Arizona that smokes plastic cigarettes. Do you smoke plastic cigarettes, too? Because you guys could hang out and smoke plastic cigarettes together and talk about how your names are almost the same.
One of my players would like some options for his Dragonborn Warlord that are RP flavored in terms of powers. He uses a whip, and it's a weapon type preferred by his clan, and he'd like to be able to do whip-like things like slide/pull targets, knock them prone, perhaps restrain or blind them with Daily powers. I think the power level of the MC Whip power-swap encounter and daily powers are pretty decent, but it seems to me that if you have to spend a feat to swap in a power, that power should be pretty awesome.
What are some ways I can give him options that will make his character more flavorful/unique? I'm wary of creating new powers, which is what he's talking about doing.
Whip is a flail weapon. Fighters have a ton of powers that directly reference flails. There's one in MP2 at level 1 that grabs an enemy and gives them a big attack penalty while they're grabbed.
I would have him multiclass for that stuff, or use them as inspiration.
Posts
What part of AZ?
Stone fist flurry of blows: does 3+str mod damage to a target. +2h/4p/6e if you choose to hit someone besides the guy you hit with the triggering attack, but meh, let's assume you hit the same guy because you're a striker.
Ki weapon: Can be placed on any weapon. Property: Once per turn your flurry of blows deals two additional points of damage. Notice the lack of the word, "item." Dual wield 2 of these.
Mighty Strikes Ki Focus: Property" You do 1 additional point of damage with flurry of blows, again without the item descriptor.
Club feat (I forget the name :P): Deal 2 additional damage with flurry of blows while wielding a club.
All of this stuff is easily gotten during heroic tier, as, since the crap you need off of ki weapon is a property, and you'll probably never use them to hit anything, you can dual wield +1 ki clubs (or a club and spear, or a club and dagger/shuriken if you are inclined to take advantage of a heroic or paragon feat to give your flurry some range). The only thing you need to stay on top of is your focus.
So, easily gotten by level 5 or 6, you can do base 3 + 4 str mod, + 5 from items, +2 from feats, for a total of 14 damage on flurry of blows. Compared to a rogue, whose average sneak attack damage with 1 feat is 9. But wait, there's more!
At paragon you can take 1 of 2 str based paragon paths, doesn't matter which, both add 2 damage. You also now hit 2 targets with flurry of blows, which is real easy to do with the shuriken feat that opens up at this tier and lets you flurry a guy up to 5 squares away if wielding a shuriken or dagger. If you have a single target you can take brutal flurry or some shit that adds another 2p/4e damage if you opt to only hit a single target. This is the end of damage buffs that I am aware of, but let's add it up at 30, at which point your flurry is a burst 1.
base 3, +8 str, + 5 items, +2 feat, +2 class = Baseline of 20. Which is slightly behind the rogues average of 22.5.
Except this ignores that flurry is a burst 1 at epic. That you can hit 1 guy up to 5 squares off in guam which guarantees you 2 hits. That any dudes you hit that weren't the target of the triggering power take an additional 6 damage. And even if there is just 1 guy, you can forego all this crap to get you up to 24, which now in fact beats sneak attack. To say nothing of the fact that outside of a brutal scoundrel bugbear, your powers will be doing better dice worth of damage than a rogue would.
This also all ignores that I forgot to check and see if flurry of blows was an implement power, which would mean another +6 damage if it is (though I suspect it isn't since it lacks an attack roll).
In summary; Finally! An implement striker with damage worth a damn.
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Good errata, but that, at worst knocks 3 points off, which still leaves you ahead of rogues at heroic and only slightly behind on single target at epic.
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Eh? I wasn't saying your point was destroyed by the errata, just that one little bit was off.
Also, I'm not seeing the problem with being in Rogue-territory for damage levels at all. Plus you still have to find (or make) all the relevant bits and take a couple of feats to do it too, which I'm sure some people will consider to be a waste. Can't wait to see the new Monk stuff turn up in CB though; I kinda want to play a monk somewhere.
Also, has anyone heard anything about Assassin Hybrid stuffs yet?
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
This is before you factor in powers:
Rogue also has [W] + Stat + Off Stat at-wills, which the monk doesn't have unless he uses Dancing Cobra and eats an OA.
Not saying the Rogue is necessarily always better than the monk (He probably is, the monk is kinda meh and they are both behind alot of the top striker builds) but your original +striker damage comparison was a bit off.
You throwing a tant?
(in all seriousness, you worded something very poorly, and made a silly assumption that a character could consume an infinite number of items in one turn as part of a free action. While that may even bizarrely be RAW, no sane DM or player would think it was legit!)
--
Can we all agree to ban the "what if people are jerks" defense for rules discussions? It's neither productive nor helpful.
Look, if something seems game-breakingly awesome, it's probably likely to be errated or not work the way you are thinking. Why start a hot & heavy e-debate over a rule that you know you are interpreting in a silly goose way?
Point out a broken rule, but don't sit there and defend your interpretation as the only way to play, especially when it's counter-intuitive!
If you want people to understand you and respond, you can try things like putting your thoughts into words. I find that works well.
Are you trying for the rude & abrasive shtick?
I kind of imagine an unpleasantly smelly man, sitting in a room, eschewing all contact with society because "no one understands me!"
My dnd group fell apart mid-campaign due to social bullshit.
And I'm not likely to find other friends interested in playing, and would rather not play with people I don't already know.
So now I have a shitton of awesome planned material in which I invested a pretty considerable amount of time sitting around which will probably never get used.
And I keep reading dnd stuff and wanting to write more but it seems like a bit of a pointless endeavor given the circumstances.
Sad DM is sad
Our gaming store has a huge posting board where people that are looking for players leave some info about the campaign and their contact info, they usually get a really good response.
So that's a pretty firm "No" right?
Explains,
"I have the autisms"
I only read this thread in the hope that the boobs mentioned in the thread title would crop up. But not a one. Not even marilith sideboob.
Since you guys have utterly disappointed me, I will supply this thread with boobs of my own:
I did not feel like googling up a single picture with two.
edit: OT Question - Are there any detailed rules/rulings regarding vertical component of flight? Specifically the cost in squares of flying up.
Beautiful
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
A boob isn't an animal, observe:
That is a boob.
It's just like any other kind of movement, 1 square to fly up etc as Optimus pointed out. You can also fly "diagonally" up, moving both horizontally and vertically at the same time. This makes flying creatures incredibly mobile.
Yea, that's how I've been doing it (and with a square cost of 0 for falling). But I was hoping for an answer that let me infinitely move a flying creature upwards. THANKS GUYS.
edit: looks like it's arbitrary vertical teleportation~ (don't ask).
Does... does this mean we all die?
Actually wow that would be an awesome power for a dragon that could make him quite challenging to kill without luring him into a close quarters area.
Maybe re-create the way birds soar straight up, "you must move forward one square, and lose one square of altitude, first"
looks like it's arbitrary vertical teleportation~
;p
edit: and yes, it totally does pop a close burst 5 prone attack vs fort.
edit2: I guess I should have spoilered that or something. ah well. you now know that there's a 50% chance that something you fight will do that. better stay away from wide open areas with high and/or non existent ceilings
That would be a cool attack actually: swoop down, hit a guy, then soar straight up and away.
Oh god for a moment there this post made me consider the effects of a hex grid on 3d movement. My brains.
Isn't this just a flyby attack (standard action) followed by a move action?
Yeah, there are already a few creatures that can do these flyby attacks.
yeah, but the flight component I intend to use is easily 8-10 squares vert.
A wyvern's fly speed is 8. He can already swoop down as a flyby attack and then move 8 vertically. Hell, he can move 10 vertically if he "runs."
A standard flyback attack will accomplish this by itself as long as you give it a sufficiently absurd speed. 20 ought to do it.
I'm familiar with flybys/etc, but this is a different case. One can assume if he was comfortable with giving it a speed of 20 he would simply do so!
Because I do not think you can form a platonic solid from hexagons.
There was talk on rpg.net that an upcoming Dragon article would give rules for 4e on a hex grid but the existence of 3d movement alone makes me doubt that.
yep. I actually have done that previously with both horiz and vert movement to compensate but it's sloppy.
ah well.
edit: if anything other than squares, 4E should implement octal movement, since it already pretty much does that anyway. but an octal gri would be horrible. so... yea.
Yea, it sounds horribly painful
Tucson, foothills area.
One of my players would like some options for his Dragonborn Warlord that are RP flavored in terms of powers. He uses a whip, and it's a weapon type preferred by his clan, and he'd like to be able to do whip-like things like slide/pull targets, knock them prone, perhaps restrain or blind them with Daily powers. I think the power level of the MC Whip power-swap encounter and daily powers are pretty decent, but it seems to me that if you have to spend a feat to swap in a power, that power should be pretty awesome.
What are some ways I can give him options that will make his character more flavorful/unique? I'm wary of creating new powers, which is what he's talking about doing.
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
I would have him multiclass for that stuff, or use them as inspiration.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.