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Going to grad school to postpone job hunting

PerpetualPerpetual Registered User
edited March 2010 in Debate and/or Discourse
With the economy being what it is, grad school applications have skyrocketed. Many people, even those who would otherwise not considered grad school, are finding themselves filling applications, writing essays, and taking the GRE/GMAT/LSAT. They hope that by the time they have their education, the economy will have recovered and they will have a nice master's degree under their belt, improving their job prospects even more.

Let me first say that there isn't anything wrong with grad school. Wanting to get specialized education in a given field is a commendable goal.

What bothers me - strikes me as wrong, even - is that many grad school applicants today are applying not because they are actually interested in that field, or even like school itself, but because they don't want to bother with job hunting. It is the path of least resistance, and that is only true for the moment - when they graduate two years from now, they'll find themselves competing with tens of thousands of people like them, and they'll be in a very similar situation as far as job prospects go.

The situation is even worse for MBA or Law students. Both fields are in a very shitty situation. Law especially is suffering from a horrible over-saturation of newly minted JDs and very slow growth of the field itself.

92c7a61a4e5a6d9ba0b48c8607704a55d25.gif

Reports from the field are pretty bleak. Most new JDs are finding themselves unemployed, except this time they are in shitloads of debt. Those who are lucky to find jobs aren't actually that lucky, because no one wants to hire inexperienced JDs for anything other than document review which pays hilariously little.

In any case, I came upon an article by Seth Godin the other day and it made real sense to me.

http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2009/06/graduate-school-for-unemployed-college-students.html
Graduate school for unemployed college students

Fewer college grads have jobs than at any other time in recent memory—a report by the National Association of Colleges and Employers annual student survey said that 20 percent of 2009 college graduates who applied for a job actually have one. So, what should the unfortunate 80% do?

How about a post-graduate year doing some combination of the following (not just one, how about all):

* Spend twenty hours a week running a project for a non-profit.
* Teach yourself Java, HTML, Flash, PHP and SQL. Not a little, but mastery. [Clarification: I know you can't become a master programmer of all these in a year. I used the word mastery to distinguish it from 'familiarity' which is what you get from one of those Dummies type books. I would hope you could write code that solves problems, works and is reasonably clear, not that you can program well enough to work for Joel Spolsky. Sorry if I ruffled feathers.]
* Volunteer to coach or assistant coach a kids sports team.
* Start, run and grow an online community.
* Give a speech a week to local organizations.
* Write a regular newsletter or blog about an industry you care about.
* Learn a foreign language fluently.
* Write three detailed business plans for projects in the industry you care about.
* Self-publish a book.
* Run a marathon.

Beats law school.

If you wake up every morning at 6, give up TV and treat this list like a job, you'll have no trouble accomplishing everything on it. Everything! When you do, what happens to your job prospects?

Basically, take the initiative to do something new, something you have always wanted to do and those in a similar situation as you won't even consider. 2 years is a long time, and there are much more productive (and cheaper) ways to spend it.

Has anyone found themselves at a similar cross-roads because they are unemployed?

Perpetual on
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Posts

  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I wasn't in a similar crossroads, since I was interested in post-graduate studies from the start of my university career. However, when I graduate in computer engineering in 2002, was right when the tech bubble burst and our employment prospects went from "100% job placement" to "software? that was just a fad that's passed". So we got the same record grad studies applications you're seeing now. It was funny/sad to see people who had no interest in their studies and did zero work in their undergrad scrambling to get into Master's programs.

    Richy on
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  • LawndartLawndart Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Yeah, that's close to the boat I'm currently trying to get in, although replace "grad school" with "college".

    Although in my defense, my thought process was a tiny bit more involved than "Fuck looking for work, let's retreat to academia":

    1) Get laid off from the sales job I didn't like and sucked at.

    2) Apply to other sales jobs I didn't want and would have sucked at, since that's what I'm qualified for, at least according to my resume.

    3) Realize I don't ever want another sales job.

    4) Ponder what the fuck I do want to do.

    5) Think to myself "Hey, self, you like talking about history and crap, why not teach?"

    6) Realize I'd need to actually finish college in order to do so. Apply to college.

    7) Realize I'd need to actually deal with kids in order to do so. Volunteer for an afterschool tutoring program.

    Lawndart on
  • VeritasVRVeritasVR Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Three posts in and this thread is already more depressing than last night's basketball game.

    VeritasVR on
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  • PerpetualPerpetual Registered User
    edited March 2010
    Why is it depressing?

    Perpetual on
  • VeritasVRVeritasVR Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Perpetual wrote: »
    Why is it depressing?
    Did you read your OP?
    Perpetual wrote: »
    What bothers me - strikes me as wrong, even - is that many grad school applicants today are applying not because they are actually interested in that field, or even like school itself, but because they don't want to bother with job hunting. It is the path of least resistance, and that is only true for the moment - when they graduate two years from now, they'll find themselves competing with tens of thousands of people like them, and they'll be in a very similar situation as far as job prospects go.
    Perpetual wrote: »
    The situation is even worse for MBA or Law students. Both fields are in a very shitty situation. Law especially is suffering from a horrible over-saturation of newly minted JDs and very slow growth of the field itself.
    Perpetual wrote: »
    Reports from the field are pretty bleak. Most new JDs are finding themselves unemployed, except this time they are in shitloads of debt. Those who are lucky to find jobs aren't actually that lucky, because no one wants to hire inexperienced JDs for anything other than document review which pays hilariously little.
    Perpetual wrote: »
    Fewer college grads have jobs than at any other time in recent memory—a report by the National Association of Colleges and Employers annual student survey said that 20 percent of 2009 college graduates who applied for a job actually have one. So, what should the unfortunate 80% do?

    I think descriptions of bleak, shitty, unemployed, debt, inexperienced, and over-saturated are pretty depressing ways to refer to a field that requires a good amount of post-grad education including time and money.

    VeritasVR on
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  • MrMisterMrMister Please demonstrate your enthusiasm for e-marking and/or e-assessment with examplesRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I'm in graduate school and it's awesome.

    But I'm fortunate enough to be fully funded. I wouldn't have borrowed to do it--that's a bad plan.

    MrMister on
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Lawndart wrote: »
    Yeah, that's close to the boat I'm currently trying to get in, although replace "grad school" with "college".

    Although in my defense, my thought process was a tiny bit more involved than "Fuck looking for work, let's retreat to academia":

    1) Get laid off from the sales job I didn't like and sucked at.

    2) Apply to other sales jobs I didn't want and would have sucked at, since that's what I'm qualified for, at least according to my resume.

    3) Realize I don't ever want another sales job.

    4) Ponder what the fuck I do want to do.

    5) Think to myself "Hey, self, you like talking about history and crap, why not teach?"

    6) Realize I'd need to actually finish college in order to do so. Apply to college.

    7) Realize I'd need to actually deal with kids in order to do so. Volunteer for an afterschool tutoring program.
    If you replace sales with politics, and history with physics, this is basically me too.

    OptimusZed on
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  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*

    I work for money.

    Cantido on
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  • RBachRBach Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    MrMister wrote: »
    I'm in graduate school and it's awesome.

    But I'm fortunate enough to be fully funded. I wouldn't have borrowed to do it--that's a bad plan.

    Not necessarily. If taking out a loan to get a Master's in whatever leads to you getting a better paying job (or, possibly, a job at all) then you should be able to come out ahead financially in the long run. That's not a definite thing, however...

    RBach on
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Cantido wrote: »
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*

    I work for money.

    Indeed. One wonders what said person is subsisting on during this period.

    shryke on
  • PerpetualPerpetual Registered User
    edited March 2010
    VeritasVR wrote: »
    Perpetual wrote: »
    Why is it depressing?
    Did you read your OP?
    Perpetual wrote: »
    What bothers me - strikes me as wrong, even - is that many grad school applicants today are applying not because they are actually interested in that field, or even like school itself, but because they don't want to bother with job hunting. It is the path of least resistance, and that is only true for the moment - when they graduate two years from now, they'll find themselves competing with tens of thousands of people like them, and they'll be in a very similar situation as far as job prospects go.
    Perpetual wrote: »
    The situation is even worse for MBA or Law students. Both fields are in a very shitty situation. Law especially is suffering from a horrible over-saturation of newly minted JDs and very slow growth of the field itself.
    Perpetual wrote: »
    Reports from the field are pretty bleak. Most new JDs are finding themselves unemployed, except this time they are in shitloads of debt. Those who are lucky to find jobs aren't actually that lucky, because no one wants to hire inexperienced JDs for anything other than document review which pays hilariously little.
    Perpetual wrote: »
    Fewer college grads have jobs than at any other time in recent memory—a report by the National Association of Colleges and Employers annual student survey said that 20 percent of 2009 college graduates who applied for a job actually have one. So, what should the unfortunate 80% do?

    I think descriptions of bleak, shitty, unemployed, debt, inexperienced, and over-saturated are pretty depressing ways to refer to a field that requires a good amount of post-grad education including time and money.

    Well, it is a specialty field. That's why it has traditionally paid so well.

    But if everyone does it, it's no longer a specialty, is it?

    You have a choice: you can either get depressed, or you can think about it intelligently and change your course.

    Perpetual on
  • PerpetualPerpetual Registered User
    edited March 2010
    RBach wrote: »
    MrMister wrote: »
    I'm in graduate school and it's awesome.

    But I'm fortunate enough to be fully funded. I wouldn't have borrowed to do it--that's a bad plan.

    Not necessarily. If taking out a loan to get a Master's in whatever leads to you getting a better paying job (or, possibly, a job at all) then you should be able to come out ahead financially in the long run. That's not a definite thing, however...

    From what I see, having an increased salary as the primary motivation for grad school tends to lead to unhappiness.

    It's true that people's with master's degrees on average earn more, but like you said it's not a fool-proof formula. Meaning it won't work if the person is a fool.

    Perpetual on
  • LawndartLawndart Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Cantido wrote: »
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*

    I work for money.

    Yes, I'm sure "beat the final stage battle in Brutal Legend...again" will look much better on your resume than "Tutored a bunch of 1st and 2nd graders in reading and math" will look on mine when it comes to the "So, what did you do during this recent gap in employment?" question.

    smug.gif

    But seriously, if you're unemployed and can afford it, volunteering is fucking awesome. Heck, if you're employed and have the time, it's also fucking awesome.

    Lawndart on
  • PerpetualPerpetual Registered User
    edited March 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    Cantido wrote: »
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*

    I work for money.

    Indeed. One wonders what said person is subsisting on during this period.

    If you have the money to pay for grad school then this won't be an issue, right?

    Perpetual on
  • FirstComradeStalinFirstComradeStalin Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Most jobs that are considered "professional" occupations (doctors, lawyers, architects) require a graduate degree. While sometimes people work before they go to grad school to build their resume and skillset, if it's not possible because of the economic climate, why not just skip ahead to grad school?

    The idea is that by the time you get out of grad school, the economy will have improved enough so that you can then get a job. And because you have a graduate degree (which is very important in a world where everyone and their mom has a bachelor's) your prospects are improved.

    I mean, that list of ideas of things to do is nice and all, but it's still effectively "taking time off" which is hard to justify, and can also end up sucking you in. Let's face it, the world's only getting more competitive, and it's basically sink or swim out there.

    For reference, this is actually a close topic to me since I'm graduating from undergrad this summer. I actually do plan to take time to build upon my portfolio and do some stuff similar to that list, and then apply for jobs in the spring (with grad school coming 1-2 years after). But I'm doing architecture, where working and learning by myself is significantly easier than, say, medicine or law.

    FirstComradeStalin on
    Picture1-4.png
  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Lawndart wrote: »
    Cantido wrote: »
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*

    I work for money.

    Yes, I'm sure "beat the final stage battle in Brutal Legend...again" will look much better on your resume than "Tutored a bunch of 1st and 2nd graders in reading and math" will look on mine when it comes to the "So, what did you do during this recent gap in employment?" question.

    smug.gif

    But seriously, if you're unemployed and can afford it, volunteering is fucking awesome. Heck, if you're employed and have the time, it's also fucking awesome.

    Ah, I kid. But this was once a mentality I had. I volunteer all the time through my ROTC detachment, and I tutor. My recent volunteer work score me free Disney tickets. <3

    Cantido on
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  • PerpetualPerpetual Registered User
    edited March 2010
    Most jobs that are considered "professional" occupations (doctors, lawyers, architects) require a graduate degree. While sometimes people work before they go to grad school to build their resume and skillset, if it's not possible because of the economic climate, why not just skip ahead to grad school?

    I don't know what you mean by "professional occupation". By definition, that only means an occupation that pays money.

    I already covered how awful the law field is right now. I wouldn't even consider it, were I in your position.

    Doctor, sure. That's pretty legitimate, and in the long run it pays off. It's also very expensive however, and the work is long and arduous.

    Architecture does not require a graduate degree.
    The idea is that by the time you get out of grad school, the economy will have improved enough so that you can then get a job. And because you have a graduate degree (which is very important in a world where everyone and their mom has a bachelor's) your prospects are improved.

    Yes, I get the idea. I already covered it in the OP.

    But like I said, the job prospects may not have improved as much as you think. In a lot of situations employers will hire people who are self-driven (i.e. taught themselves another language, or volunteered) and have some experience, as opposed to someone who just went to school for two additional years.

    Not to mention the actual value you get out of the grad school. For most fields, it's commonly accepted that in order to get the most out of it, you should have at least 5 years of "real world" experience under your belt, so that you can make better sense of what you are learning by applying it to your past experience in the field.
    I mean, that list of ideas of things to do is nice and all, but it's still effectively "taking time off" which is hard to justify, and can also end up sucking you in. Let's face it, the world's only getting more competitive, and it's basically sink or swim out there.

    For many, many jobs, the things listed in the OP, such as being fluent in another language or having project management experience under your belt, will improve your job prospects as much as grad school will. The advantage is that, unlike grad school, you will be your own boss, will be choosing your own direction, and you won't be paying tens of thousands of dollars to do it.

    Perpetual on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Perpetual wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cantido wrote: »
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*

    I work for money.

    Indeed. One wonders what said person is subsisting on during this period.

    If you have the money to pay for grad school then this won't be an issue, right?

    Who has the money to pay for Grad School?

    Everyone I know is using loans or grants.

    shryke on
  • JokermanJokerman Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    basicly, this boils down to a discussion i had a few years ago with a guy who was complaning that since everybody goes to college now, it completely defeats the purpose of going.

    Jokerman on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Perpetual wrote: »
    Architecture does not require a graduate degree.

    If you wanna be an actual Architect? Yes, it does.

    At least, it does now.

    shryke on
  • PerpetualPerpetual Registered User
    edited March 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    Perpetual wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cantido wrote: »
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*

    I work for money.

    Indeed. One wonders what said person is subsisting on during this period.

    If you have the money to pay for grad school then this won't be an issue, right?

    Who has the money to pay for Grad School?

    Everyone I know is using loans or grants.

    According to a 2004 study, approximately 60 percent of grad school applicants receive loans, and they accumulate $37,000 of debt per year, on average.

    Which doesn't really lend your argument any weight, since if you lack the money for grad school so much so that you need loans to afford it, then by the time you get out you'll be even more desperate for a job, since you'll be in lots of debt. So your life for the first 5-10 years won't be very good.

    That's a pretty big bet, because we don't know how much the economy will improve in 2 years time. Probably not by much since the job market is a lagging indicator.

    Perpetual on
  • PerpetualPerpetual Registered User
    edited March 2010
    Jokerman wrote: »
    basicly, this boils down to a discussion i had a few years ago with a guy who was complaning that since everybody goes to college now, it completely defeats the purpose of going.

    I never said this.

    I think your reading comprehension is quite sub-par.

    Perpetual on
  • MrMisterMrMister Please demonstrate your enthusiasm for e-marking and/or e-assessment with examplesRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    RBach wrote: »
    MrMister wrote: »
    I'm in graduate school and it's awesome.

    But I'm fortunate enough to be fully funded. I wouldn't have borrowed to do it--that's a bad plan.

    Not necessarily. If taking out a loan to get a Master's in whatever leads to you getting a better paying job (or, possibly, a job at all) then you should be able to come out ahead financially in the long run. That's not a definite thing, however...

    I should have specified that I'm in the humanities.

    Getting a masters in, say, Mechanical Engineering more than pays for itself. Philosophy not so much.

    MrMister on
  • PerpetualPerpetual Registered User
    edited March 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    Perpetual wrote: »
    Architecture does not require a graduate degree.

    If you wanna be an actual Architect? Yes, it does.

    At least, it does now.

    Well yeah, but last time I checked, you actually need several years of apprenticeship experience before they let you into architecture grad programs. So you can't jump directly into grad school anyway, for that field.

    Perpetual on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Perpetual wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Perpetual wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Cantido wrote: »
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*
    *volunteer*

    I work for money.

    Indeed. One wonders what said person is subsisting on during this period.

    If you have the money to pay for grad school then this won't be an issue, right?

    Who has the money to pay for Grad School?

    Everyone I know is using loans or grants.

    According to a 2004 study, approximately 60 percent of grad school applicants receive loans, and they accumulate $37,000 of debt per year, on average.

    Which doesn't really lend your argument any weight, since if you lack the money for grad school so much so that you need loans to afford it, then by the time you get out you'll be even more desperate for a job, since you'll be in lots of debt. So your life for the first 5-10 years won't be very good.

    That's a pretty big bet, because we don't know how much the economy will improve in 2 years time. Probably not by much since the job market is a lagging indicator.

    What the fuck are you talking about man?

    Look, if there are people who don't need loans or grants for Grad School, they are a small minority. Most people live through Grad School on loans and grants and such. That's how they pay tuition and, you know, EAT and shit.

    If you aren't going to Grad School, said loans and grants don't exist for you. No one pays you money to sit at home doing nothing.

    So if you aren't going to Grad School and you are volunteering instead, how in the fuck are you feeding yourself?


    Which brings us back to the point: If you can't find a job, volunteering isn't gonna help anything because you still aren't making any goddamn money.

    shryke on
  • JokermanJokerman Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Perpetual wrote: »
    Jokerman wrote: »
    basicly, this boils down to a discussion i had a few years ago with a guy who was complaning that since everybody goes to college now, it completely defeats the purpose of going.

    I never said this.

    I think your reading comprehension is quite sub-par.

    Whoa whoa whoa guy, no need to start flinging around Ad Hominems like a silly goose. No one is attacking you, If i may try and clarify..
    Perpetual wrote: »
    What bothers me - strikes me as wrong, even - is that many grad school applicants today are applying not because they are actually interested in that field, or even like school itself, but because they don't want to bother with job hunting. It is the path of least resistance, and that is only true for the moment - when they graduate two years from now, they'll find themselves competing with tens of thousands of people like them, and they'll be in a very similar situation as far as job prospects go.

    The situation is even worse for MBA or Law students. Both fields are in a very shitty situation. Law especially is suffering from a horrible over-saturation of newly minted JDs and very slow growth of the field itself.

    so what your OP argues is that the swell of Grad students is devluating the worth of having a graduate degree, flooding the marketplace with doctorates and masters, making them worth less. Or is I still not smarts enough to read no words no how?

    Jokerman on
  • QonasQonas Detroit, MIRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    100% agreed with the "how are you LIVING" sentiment.

    Everything on that list the OP quoted is laudable and will certainly increase job prospects. However, that person can't be doing just those things and be making a living at the same time. What exactly are they going to do? Trot off to deliver their speech to a "local organization" from their mother's house, where she is left pulling hairs out because her child is quite literally doing nothing while she foots the bill? Or even better, does this person mooch off a roommate, who'll have even less sympathy than a family member? Or is this hypothetical person, spending a year helping a non-profit and delivering speeches, simply homeless?

    Qonas on
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  • LoklarLoklar Registered User
    edited March 2010
    This topic is close to my heart. Why?

    I just graduated with journalism degree 6 months ago. Talk about a shrinking industry! A huge round of layoffs in Print and Broadcast (over 10% by my estimate) across the industry. Right as my entire year was looking for jobs. Very grim situation.

    I was extremely lucky though. I ran into one of my profs while waiting tables, and she took it on herself to make sure I got a job at the biggest news broadcaster in Canada. I had to do a second internship for 3 months (free internship) but I spent half that time just meeting everyone I could, sniffing out job opportunities. But so many of my friends are working the same "summer jobs" after school as before. And it's not like I was smarter or more disciplined than them. Just luckier.

    Anyways, I feel really really mofoing lucky. But I can't relax. This is a union organization and I have no contract and no seniority. Who knows what'll happen to the market, or the funding for my place of work. The government could pull the plug on this place, ad revenue could sour even more.

    I think everyone is always on a treadmill. I didn't realize it when I was at school... I had the mentality that once I got my degree everything would fall into place. Well it didn't for 80% of my graduating year. We always have to be improving ourselves and getting better.

    I'm going to learn French. And I'm going to sock as much money as I can in some sort of investment. I am not keen on the future being easy. I think things are going to be very competitive.

    Loklar on
  • FirstComradeStalinFirstComradeStalin Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Perpetual wrote: »

    I don't know what you mean by "professional occupation". By definition, that only means an occupation that pays money.

    I already covered how awful the law field is right now. I wouldn't even consider it, were I in your position.

    Doctor, sure. That's pretty legitimate, and in the long run it pays off. It's also very expensive however, and the work is long and arduous.

    Architecture does not require a graduate degree.

    I mean "professional" as in there are licensing requirements. To be licensed you must have a degree and pass an exam. Doctors, lawyers, architects all have licensing protocols. Doctors have to have a license. Lawyers have to have a license. Architects don't need to have a license, but those that don't have a license are forced to work under someone else who does (buildings over certain limits must be signed off on by a licensed architect). And the discussion isn't entirely about whether or not the job is worthwhile, it's about if you should rush into grad school because the economy sucks and you can't get a job.
    Yes, I get the idea. I already covered it in the OP.

    But like I said, the job prospects may not have improved as much as you think. In a lot of situations employers will hire people who are self-driven (i.e. taught themselves another language, or volunteered) and have some experience, as opposed to someone who just went to school for two additional years.

    Not to mention the actual value you get out of the grad school. For most fields, it's commonly accepted that in order to get the most out of it, you should have at least 5 years of "real world" experience under your belt, so that you can make better sense of what you are learning by applying it to your past experience in the field.

    I'd still contend that you'd learn more during two years of grad school (during which you're still very much free to pursue things outside of school) than during two years of marathon-running / blogging / learning another language (which, come on, takes more than just sitting in your room reading a book about it).

    You're right about real world experience, but things don't work out ideally all the time. If you can't get a job, going to grad school is better than being unemployed (even if your idea of unemployment is still very much active).
    For many, many jobs, the things listed in the OP, such as being fluent in another language or having project management experience under your belt, will improve your job prospects as much as grad school will. The advantage is that, unlike grad school, you will be your own boss, will be choosing your own direction, and you won't be paying tens of thousands of dollars to do it.

    That sort of argument is more focused around the idea of grad school in general. Maybe it isn't as valuable as it's made out to be, or maybe it isn't. You're probably right in some cases, but that's besides the point. If you can't get a job because of dismal job prospects (architects face a similarly dismal outlook as lawyers) and you essentially have to go to grad school at some point in your career, why not just get it over with now when you probably won't get a job?

    Also, you're going to have to be in debt if you can't get a job anyway. Less than if you went to grad school, but still debt nonetheless.

    Oh, and if you're still being funded by your parents, it's pretty difficult to justify the list rather than grad school.

    FirstComradeStalin on
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  • LoklarLoklar Registered User
    edited March 2010
    Qonas wrote: »
    100% agreed with the "how are you LIVING" sentiment.

    Everything on that list the OP quoted is laudable and will certainly increase job prospects. However, that person can't be doing just those things and be making a living at the same time. What exactly are they going to do? Trot off to deliver their speech to a "local organization" from their mother's house, where she is left pulling hairs out because her child is quite literally doing nothing while she foots the bill? Or even better, does this person mooch off a roommate, who'll have even less sympathy than a family member? Or is this hypothetical person, spending a year helping a non-profit and delivering speeches, simply homeless?

    I think you're giving up a little easy.

    The makeup of this board is probably "rich" by world-wide standards. I mean, we all have access to computers and we like videogames. That means we're probably used to a lot of luxury. This might be what has to change.

    Loklar on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Loklar wrote: »
    Qonas wrote: »
    100% agreed with the "how are you LIVING" sentiment.

    Everything on that list the OP quoted is laudable and will certainly increase job prospects. However, that person can't be doing just those things and be making a living at the same time. What exactly are they going to do? Trot off to deliver their speech to a "local organization" from their mother's house, where she is left pulling hairs out because her child is quite literally doing nothing while she foots the bill? Or even better, does this person mooch off a roommate, who'll have even less sympathy than a family member? Or is this hypothetical person, spending a year helping a non-profit and delivering speeches, simply homeless?

    I think you're giving up a little easy.

    The makeup of this board is probably "rich" by world-wide standards. I mean, we all have access to computers and we like videogames. That means we're probably used to a lot of luxury. This might be what has to change.

    Um, those things cost nothing compared to shelter and food.

    shryke on
  • FirstComradeStalinFirstComradeStalin Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Perpetual wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Perpetual wrote: »
    Architecture does not require a graduate degree.

    If you wanna be an actual Architect? Yes, it does.

    At least, it does now.

    Well yeah, but last time I checked, you actually need several years of apprenticeship experience before they let you into architecture grad programs. So you can't jump directly into grad school anyway, for that field.

    Yes you can. Internship requirements are 3 years. Those years can be fulfilled any time between your 3rd year of undergrad and your licensing. Grad school can come before, after, or in between, depending on your preferences. Most prefer leaving interning for after grad school for reasons you've mentioned, but I'd say about half of my classmates are going straight to grad school this year specifically because of the state of the economy.

    FirstComradeStalin on
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  • LoklarLoklar Registered User
    edited March 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    Loklar wrote: »
    Qonas wrote: »
    100% agreed with the "how are you LIVING" sentiment.

    Everything on that list the OP quoted is laudable and will certainly increase job prospects. However, that person can't be doing just those things and be making a living at the same time. What exactly are they going to do? Trot off to deliver their speech to a "local organization" from their mother's house, where she is left pulling hairs out because her child is quite literally doing nothing while she foots the bill? Or even better, does this person mooch off a roommate, who'll have even less sympathy than a family member? Or is this hypothetical person, spending a year helping a non-profit and delivering speeches, simply homeless?

    I think you're giving up a little easy.

    The makeup of this board is probably "rich" by world-wide standards. I mean, we all have access to computers and we like videogames. That means we're probably used to a lot of luxury. This might be what has to change.

    Um, those things cost nothing compared to shelter and food.

    Depends how expensive the food is.

    Edit: Also it depends how you want to spend your time. You could volunteer in something in your field rather than play a game.

    Loklar on
  • legionofonelegionofone __BANNED USERS
    edited March 2010
    Join the Peace Corps. Go get your commission from the military. Etc etc.

    Unfortunately, many of these beggars want to be choosers as well. Oh well.

    legionofone on
    "They have shit," Krause said. "Rights my ass. 'Rights'. Nobody has any fucking rights unless they've got a machine gun."
  • PerpetualPerpetual Registered User
    edited March 2010
    Look, if there are people who don't need loans or grants for Grad School, they are a small minority. Most people live through Grad School on loans and grants and such. That's how they pay tuition and, you know, EAT and shit.

    40% isn't exactly what I'd call a "small minority" but okay.
    So if you aren't going to Grad School and you are volunteering instead, how in the fuck are you feeding yourself?

    How did you feed yourself through 4 or more years of college?
    Which brings us back to the point: If you can't find a job, volunteering isn't gonna help anything because you still aren't making any goddamn money.

    So, let me see if I got this right: you don't have enough money to sit around and work on other, probably non-paying activities, so you get a loan and go to grad school for two years, hoping that the economy will have recovered enough even though the job market lags behind the economy?

    That sure sounds smart.

    Perpetual on
  • JokermanJokerman Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Join the Peace Corps. Go get your commission from the military. Etc etc.

    Unfortunately, many of these beggars want to be choosers as well. Oh well.

    This sounds like a great idea in practice, but most branches require you to have a graduate degree to attend (Highly competetive) OCS, the main exemption being the Army.

    I mean I guess you could go to ROTC or actualy go to a millitary academy, but unless you wanted to be an Officer in the first place (And let me be the first to say not everyone has what it takes to be an Officer, a lot of Officers dont have what it takes to be an Officer) that would seem to be a waste of time.

    Jokerman on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Loklar wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Loklar wrote: »
    Qonas wrote: »
    100% agreed with the "how are you LIVING" sentiment.

    Everything on that list the OP quoted is laudable and will certainly increase job prospects. However, that person can't be doing just those things and be making a living at the same time. What exactly are they going to do? Trot off to deliver their speech to a "local organization" from their mother's house, where she is left pulling hairs out because her child is quite literally doing nothing while she foots the bill? Or even better, does this person mooch off a roommate, who'll have even less sympathy than a family member? Or is this hypothetical person, spending a year helping a non-profit and delivering speeches, simply homeless?

    I think you're giving up a little easy.

    The makeup of this board is probably "rich" by world-wide standards. I mean, we all have access to computers and we like videogames. That means we're probably used to a lot of luxury. This might be what has to change.

    Um, those things cost nothing compared to shelter and food.

    Depends how expensive the food is.

    No, it doesn't.

    Even assuming I buy like a game system a month, that's still less then rent.

    shryke on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Perpetual wrote: »
    Look, if there are people who don't need loans or grants for Grad School, they are a small minority. Most people live through Grad School on loans and grants and such. That's how they pay tuition and, you know, EAT and shit.

    40% isn't exactly what I'd call a "small minority" but okay.

    Wait, wait, wait, you think 40% of Grad Students are sitting on 30 grand or so a year?

    Who the fuck are these people?
    So if you aren't going to Grad School and you are volunteering instead, how in the fuck are you feeding yourself?

    How did you feed yourself through 4 or more years of college?

    Working, student loans, money from parents, etc.

    You know, like everyone else does it.
    Which brings us back to the point: If you can't find a job, volunteering isn't gonna help anything because you still aren't making any goddamn money.

    So, let me see if I got this right: you don't have enough money to sit around and work on other, probably non-paying activities, so you get a loan and go to grad school for two years, hoping that the economy will have recovered enough even though the job market lags behind the economy?

    That sure sounds smart.

    Yes, it's almost like you are taking on debt to get a better education to get a higher paying job later.

    It's CRAZY. It's almost ... it's almost like Undergrad!

    And regardless, what you are comparing it to is volunteering, thereby making NO money and .... I don't know, living in a cardboard box and eating out of the dumpster behind Olive Garden?



    Are you like 12? Do you not know anything about the real world?

    shryke on
  • legionofonelegionofone __BANNED USERS
    edited March 2010
    Jokerman wrote: »
    Join the Peace Corps. Go get your commission from the military. Etc etc.

    Unfortunately, many of these beggars want to be choosers as well. Oh well.

    This sounds like a great idea in practice, but most branches require you to have a graduate degree to attend (Highly competetive) OCS, the main exemption being the Army.

    I mean I guess you could go to ROTC or actualy go to a millitary academy, but unless you wanted to be an Officer in the first place (And let me be the first to say not everyone has what it takes to be an Officer, a lot of Officers dont have what it takes to be an Officer) that would seem to be a waste of time.

    Yeah you need a graduate school if you're going to be a doctor, lawyer, or chaplain, but if you've got your BS in Psych or History and can't find a job, well there you go.

    I agree with what you're saying about Officers not always having what it takes though.

    I'm just trying to make the point that more people should look outside the box when it comes to finding a job. I work with a guy who has a bachelors in Natural Resource Management, and our job has about nothing to do with that.

    legionofone on
    "They have shit," Krause said. "Rights my ass. 'Rights'. Nobody has any fucking rights unless they've got a machine gun."
  • LoklarLoklar Registered User
    edited March 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    Loklar wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Loklar wrote: »
    Qonas wrote: »
    100% agreed with the "how are you LIVING" sentiment.

    Everything on that list the OP quoted is laudable and will certainly increase job prospects. However, that person can't be doing just those things and be making a living at the same time. What exactly are they going to do? Trot off to deliver their speech to a "local organization" from their mother's house, where she is left pulling hairs out because her child is quite literally doing nothing while she foots the bill? Or even better, does this person mooch off a roommate, who'll have even less sympathy than a family member? Or is this hypothetical person, spending a year helping a non-profit and delivering speeches, simply homeless?

    I think you're giving up a little easy.

    The makeup of this board is probably "rich" by world-wide standards. I mean, we all have access to computers and we like videogames. That means we're probably used to a lot of luxury. This might be what has to change.

    Um, those things cost nothing compared to shelter and food.

    Depends how expensive the food is.

    No, it doesn't.

    Even assuming I buy like a game system a month, that's still less then rent.

    I'm not here to tell anyone how to spend their money. Or their time.

    I'm just saying, it's not a crazy strategy to volunteer.
    Really it's not a crazy strategy to go to grad school either.

    What is crazy is sitting around thinking the world owes you.

    Loklar on
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