Join the Peace Corps. Go get your commission from the military. Etc etc.
Unfortunately, many of these beggars want to be choosers as well. Oh well.
This sounds like a great idea in practice, but most branches require you to have a graduate degree to attend (Highly competetive) OCS, the main exemption being the Army.
I mean I guess you could go to ROTC or actualy go to a millitary academy, but unless you wanted to be an Officer in the first place (And let me be the first to say not everyone has what it takes to be an Officer, a lot of Officers dont have what it takes to be an Officer) that would seem to be a waste of time.
Yeah you need a graduate school if you're going to be a doctor, lawyer, or chaplain, but if you've got your BS in Psych or History and can't find a job, well there you go.
I agree with what you're saying about Officers not always having what it takes though.
I'm just trying to make the point that more people should look outside the box when it comes to finding a job. I work with a guy who has a bachelors in Natural Resource Management, and our job has about nothing to do with that.
Pretty much the army will only take people with a BS. The Airforce pretty much only commisions officers with a Graduate degree in engineering and the navy is just as hard. I guess you could go to Marine OCS, but seriously, who decides to become a Marine Officer on a whim?
Granted I never looked into becoming an Officer, these are just things i've heard thrown around, and by and large I agree it wouldnt be a bad idea to think outside of the box.
If I had a BS in anything I'd look into going into the peace corps. Always wanted to do it but could never get that degree squared away.
I just got into Air Force OTS with a BS in engineering to do engineering-like things. Many other people got in with random BS/BAs to do many other things like communications, public affairs, contracting, etc. Unfortunately, the selection rate was about 10% on the most recent selection board for non-flyers. Most of these people did have technical degrees. A graduate degree is not required, and in fact will not really help you because you're considered against a constant for everyone (which is the undergraduate degree.)
Grad school is great, and will probably help get you selected, but not as much as you'd think. It's common that the Air Force will even pay for a(nother?) graduate degree when you're a 1Lt/Capt (about 4-8 years in).
Well there ya go, straight from a horses mouth.
I would go further and argue that you don't even really need a relevant undergraduate degree to get into OCS. I got my commission from Navy OCS with a BA in English. English! That's probably the most useless major in the world.
But yes, selection rates are very competitive and it's gotten even worse with the economy. It's pretty much like applying for a job except you also need to demonstrate some physical fitness and have a relatively clean background (I hear for the Army you don't even need that ).
I do agree that there are so many options out there that a lot of recent graduates probably aren't even considering. Teach for America, State Department Foreign Service Officer, Peace Corp, etc.
Why you gotta throw the army under the bus like that? Thread derailing, immenent.
All ROTC will take any student pursuing any bachelor's degree, but it's on them to keep their grades up while demonstrating they're Officer material. But they offer big scholarships for high quality cadets, or cadets pursuing a degree on their Most Wanted list.
Air Force wants Computer/Electrical Engineers, Mathematicians, Nursing, and a big list of languages. But that should not suggest if you're outside that list you wont get a scholarship. There are a lot of Criminal Justice/ Political Science cadets who got scholarships simply by being really awesome.
So yes, mooch off someone else while you volunteer for shit is your suggestion. Brilliant.
FYI, your ignore list doesn't work.
Interestingly you can still apply for jobs while actively volunteering with several groups. Getting EI payments (which you paid for while you worked) does not make you anyone's bitch.
Ssshh, don't tell him that he can actually do more than one thing at a time!
I mean, even after I explained that one doesn't have to "mooch off" of anyone, he still throws that around. Unbelievable.
Well, living off of your parents money is actually mooching off of your parents. Its the definition of the fucking word. Maybe I only say this because I chose not to do that and instead enlisted in the Navy.
Also, picking your siblings up from school / cleaning the garage / doing your chores is not a living and should not be considered a fair trade for the amount of money it takes just to feed you.
They are your parents. It's not about fairness, for fuck's sake. And even if it is, when they get old you'll probably look after them the way they looked after you for 20-25 years.
If you are that concerned about monetary affairs with your family - if you're one of those families - then after you get a job you can send them monthly checks. As stupid as that sounds, at least it will be "fair".
I mean, I don't know dude, my parents would be totally fine if I told them I'm moving in with them and will be teaching myself a spoken language or programming and building my resume in other ways, while applying to jobs. But that's probably because they want me to do well in life. Sheesh.
Just because they are your parents doesnt mean you can't grow the fuck up and support yourself.
So yes, mooch off someone else while you volunteer for shit is your suggestion. Brilliant.
FYI, your ignore list doesn't work.
Interestingly you can still apply for jobs while actively volunteering with several groups. Getting EI payments (which you paid for while you worked) does not make you anyone's bitch.
Ssshh, don't tell him that he can actually do more than one thing at a time!
I mean, even after I explained that one doesn't have to "mooch off" of anyone, he still throws that around. Unbelievable.
Well, living off of your parents money is actually mooching off of your parents. Its the definition of the fucking word. Maybe I only say this because I chose not to do that and instead enlisted in the Navy.
Also, picking your siblings up from school / cleaning the garage / doing your chores is not a living and should not be considered a fair trade for the amount of money it takes just to feed you.
They are your parents. It's not about fairness, for fuck's sake. And even if it is, when they get old you'll probably look after them the way they looked after you for 20-25 years.
If you are that concerned about monetary affairs with your family - if you're one of those families - then after you get a job you can send them monthly checks. As stupid as that sounds, at least it will be "fair".
I mean, I don't know dude, my parents would be totally fine if I told them I'm moving in with them and will be teaching myself a spoken language or programming and building my resume in other ways, while applying to jobs. But that's probably because they want me to do well in life. Sheesh.
Just because they are your parents doesnt mean you can't grow the fuck up and support yourself.
Awww, look at mr. high horse. Joined the Navy just to show people that he has grown up. So touching.
How does going to grad school play into this whole supporting oneself thing? What if one cannot get a loan or a grant? What then? Should they join the army like you?
If you can't get a loan or grant, get a job like normal people? You know how everyone is saying that volunteering is great but I need to eat. Well, get a job, even at minimum wage until you can find a job in your field with career opportunities.
I'm just saying that a 22 or 23 or whatever age you are when you graduate maybe your should get some life experience by actually supporting yourself.
If you can't get a loan or grant, get a job like normal people? You know how everyone is saying that volunteering is great but I need to eat. Well, get a job, even at minimum wage until you can find a job in your field with career opportunities.
Yeah, okay. So you didn't read the thread, or even the OP. Thank you for letting us know.
(Gosh, those unemployed people, if only they got a job like normal people, they wouldn't be such losers!)
The ENTIRE POINT of this whole conversation, which you would have figured out had you read the OP, is what people should do IF THEY CANNOT FIND A JOB. That's where this whole grad school vs. doing other activities to build one's resume discussion originates from.
I'm just saying that a 22 or 23 or whatever age you are when you graduate maybe your should get some life experience by actually supporting yourself.
What the **** does "life experience" mean, and why is it that being able to support oneself financially without any outside help the only way to get life experience?
If you can't get a loan or grant, get a job like normal people? You know how everyone is saying that volunteering is great but I need to eat. Well, get a job, even at minimum wage until you can find a job in your field with career opportunities.
Yeah, okay. So you didn't read the thread, or even the OP. Thank you for letting us know.
(Gosh, those unemployed people, if only they got a job like normal people, they wouldn't be such losers!)
The ENTIRE POINT of this whole conversation, which you would have figured out had you read the OP, is what people should do IF THEY CANNOT FIND A JOB. That's where this whole grad school vs. doing other activities to build one's resume discussion originates from.
I'm just saying that a 22 or 23 or whatever age you are when you graduate maybe your should get some life experience by actually supporting yourself.
What the **** does "life experience" mean, and why is it that being able to support oneself financially without any outside help the only way to get life experience?
It is very important that you answer this.
Because, working a job and supporting yourself is completely different from academia? Look at the importance of your resume and internships. Employers like these things because just about everybody can get through college but not everyone can perform well in a work environment.
I also read the whole thread but where you see people saying "I can't get a job" I see college graduates saying "I can't get a job that I want and pays well"
Because, working a job and supporting yourself is completely different from academia? Look at the importance of your resume and internships.
Working a job and supporting yourself is not the only way to build a resume.
Depending on the type, volunteering can be an excellent addition to any resume, especially if you are participating in or leading projects. It is also a great way to meet new people and build a network. In addition to that, you can spend some time learning another spoken language, or learning a technical skill like a programming language.
No employer ever goes "hmm this kid supported himself for two years, we should hire him". It's the actual experience and its relevance to the job position that matters. Working at Burger King for two years won't help you if you want to get a job as an engineer.
Employers like these things because just about everybody can get through college but not everyone can perform well in a work environment.
Uh, just about everybody can get through college? Is this why the 2000 census reported that 1 in 3 people dropped out of college before getting a degree? Is this why this number has risen since then?
I also read the whole thread but where you see people saying "I can't get a job" I see college graduates saying "I can't get a job that I want and pays well"
How can you blame these people for refusing to settle for a minimum-wage low-skill or no-skill labor after they went to college for 4+ years?
Keep in mind, in some places in the US, even minimum wage jobs are filled to the max.
[Awww, look at mr. high horse. Joined the Navy just to show people that he has grown up. So touching.
How does going to grad school play into this whole supporting oneself thing? What if one cannot get a loan or a grant? What then? Should they join the army like you?
Navy, enlisted in the Navy, not the Army. These are distinctions that need to be made.
And what's so wrong with the idea of service? Asking not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.
Plus if you join the millitary you can always get tons of money for school, so unless your phsyicaly (or moraly) unfit there's always a way to get a loan or a grant or a scholarship.
[Awww, look at mr. high horse. Joined the Navy just to show people that he has grown up. So touching.
How does going to grad school play into this whole supporting oneself thing? What if one cannot get a loan or a grant? What then? Should they join the army like you?
Navy, enlisted in the Navy, not the Army. These are distinctions that need to be made.
Within the context of this thread, the distinction is unnecessary. Military is military, regardless of the branch.
And what's so wrong with the idea of service? Asking not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.
Nothing is wrong with serving your country. I never said anything is wrong with it!
Plus if you join the millitary you can always get tons of money for school, so unless your phsyicaly (or moraly) unfit there's always a way to get a loan or a grant or a scholarship.
The military's benefits are nice, but they come with plenty of strings attached.
Working a job and supporting yourself is not the only way to build a resume.
Depending on the type, volunteering can be an excellent addition to any resume, especially if you are participating in or leading projects. Same thing with learning another spoken language, or learning a technical skill like a programming language.
No employer ever goes "hmm this kid supported himself for two years, we should hire him". It's the actual experience and its relevance to the job position that matters. Working at Burger King for two years won't help you if you want to get a job as an engineer.
Living with your parents for a year while doing these things heavily implies that you're still in a mindset of a child, rather than that of the other person applying for a job who worked and found ways to improve their knowledge.
Uh, just about everybody can get through college? Is this why the 2000 census reported that 1 in 3 people dropped out of college before getting a degree? Is this why this number has risen since then?
Maybe the number has risen since then since people's parents got fired from their jobs and couldn't pay for their child to go to college anymore. Also, I have been to college, if you got to a standard public university it is easy, unless you are working at the same time to support yourself.
How can you blame these people for refusing to settle for a minimum-wage low-skill or no-skill labor after they went to college for 4+ years?
Keep in mind, in some places in the US, even minimum wage jobs are filled to the max.
I can blame them because sometimes people have to sacrifice what they want for what they need. Somebody with a college degree should be able to get a job somewhere. Hell, people straight out of high school can get jobs still. It just may not be what you want right then or for your career but it might help you get there.
Nah, Jokerman is just making the distinction because he couldn't make it into the Navy and settled. Therefore he has to make himself feel better. (I believe) :P
underexperienced because they never worked? huh funny... I thought I was arguing that they should get a job. Even jobs where they hire people with no experience so this may not be a problem anymore. (If that was directed at me)
[Awww, look at mr. high horse. Joined the Navy just to show people that he has grown up. So touching.
How does going to grad school play into this whole supporting oneself thing? What if one cannot get a loan or a grant? What then? Should they join the army like you?
Navy, enlisted in the Navy, not the Army. These are distinctions that need to be made.
Within the context of this thread, the distinction is unnecessary. Military is military, regardless of the branch.
It's an entirely different culture. Different jobs, different missions. In the case of the Navy, certainly...special...different people...
This is similar to the position I find myself in. Except that right now I'm gainfully employeed in a job that pays me well enough to live comfortably enough.
I got a BA in Political Science, and I always wanted to do the Graduate School or Law school, but reading stuff like the OP and thinking about the debt I'll get just scares the hell out of me.
I don't regret taking a LLM after I graduated and after I passed the bar as I really wasn't sure I wanted to stick to law and getting a LLM was a great way of keeping my options open. If I ever go back to working in the civil service (I interned there) that will help a lot. It also helps in other fields too - non legal corporates love a masters as do a lot of law firms, at least to get my CV noticed over other candidates and in this job market (NZ/UK) where there are a heap of graduates and redundant lawyers I need anything I can get to be noticed.
It isn't necessary though, unless you want to be an academic, for law anyway, although that appears to be changing.
Living with your parents for a year while doing these things heavily implies that you're still in a mindset of a child
You still have not explained why this is so. You're just repeating it like a broken record player.
rather than that of the other person applying for a job who worked and found ways to improve their knowledge.
You still have not explained why working at a job - even if it's burger flipping at mcdonalds - is the only way to improve one's knowledge, whereas things like leading volunteer projects or teaching oneself Spanish or learning SQL/PHP/Java does not.
Also, I have been to college, if you got to a standard public university it is easy, unless you are working at the same time to support yourself.
Huh, funny, I thought you said people should stop being a child and grow up as soon as they can by, you know, supporting themselves financially. Now you are admitting that, oh wait, college can be fucking hard if you are doing these things simultaneously, and this can lead to dropping out of college.
Go figure.
Also, how hard your university is depends on a lot of factors. You shouldn't make generalizations.
I can blame them because sometimes people have to sacrifice what they want for what they need.
And I find it incredibly pretentious of you that you think you know what these people need better than them.
Somebody with a college degree should be able to get a job somewhere. Hell, people straight out of high school can get jobs still. It just may not be what you want right then or for your career but it might help you get there.
You are so out of touch with current reality it's not even funny.
I got a BA in Political Science, and I always wanted to do the Graduate School or Law school, but reading stuff like the OP and thinking about the debt I'll get just scares the hell out of me.
Stay out of law dude. Trust me on this - I went through similar decisions.
You can read stuff like this and learn all you need to know.
the economy melted in october 2008, and i was laid off from apple in november 2008 after working there for a year and a half or so as a tech. shortly thereafter i had a really shit interview at another tech support job, then applied to graduate school the next day; best decision i ever made. i'm doing an MA in liberal studies with a focus on english, it's fantastic.
The fundamental point is that "just volunteer until you get paid work" is a pretty silly thing to say, if "until you get paid work" means six months or more and the person in question has the common misfortune of having to pay their own bills.
But no one said "just volunteer until you get paid work."
That's just a strawman that shryke made up.
Of the things you suggested in your OP, only two have the potential to directly generate any revenue (and the business plan one, questionably so at best.) Several have costs associated with them. This makes them laudable suggestions for people who have the luxury of being in solid financial shape, either because they have low costs themselves (see: living with parents) or because they have money coming in. That means that for a recent undergraduate facing bills and so on, they aren't really solutions and they aren't alternatives to graduate school.
That part of the OP is sort of a red herring, really.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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Casually HardcoreOnce an Asshole. Trying to be better.Registered Userregular
edited March 2010
The problem we're currently seeing within this thread is quite simple.
On one side of the ring, we have this person who's very deep in the idea of individualism. I.E. "A real American is someone who is independent! He should be able to pull himself up by the bootstrap, work hard, own a house, and raise a family! For that is the American dream!"
On the other side of the ring we have a person who isn't as deep in the idea of individualism. I don't really have a good example of this, but fuck it lets just roll with it.
Now, I can understand both side of the story. I grew up in a family with parents with very different ideas with this subject. My mother came from a huge multi-generational family farm, where it's pretty common for people to move out of the farm only after they're well in their 30's (once they have a good career, and a place all set up to live at) or never move away from the farm and just bring their family there. My father was kicked out of the house at the age of 18, with nothing but a suitcase full of clothes.
After hear their stories and seeing how both of their lives ended up, I'm more inclined to agree on how my mother was raised. I honestly don't see the point of moving out and 'gaining life experience' as soon as you hit 18. To me it seems like 'gaining life experience' is just a nicer way to say 'put your self into a life time of debt', as you're force to depend on credit and loans to afford the necessities of life when you venture out on the world with nothing but a suitcase with clothes. Yes, there are special little cases where a 12 year old kid disowned their parents and are now currently billionaires. But, in reality, people just put themselves in debt.
Of course, America being a consumer base economy, it's probably a good thing that American citizens are rampant consumers with little regard about personal debt. If people don't spend money, people don't have jobs. So maybe 'gaining life experience' is actually a good thing for everybody in the long run?
With regards to the OP; I can see where the author is coming from. I mean having a few years being a project lead for a non-profit looks a lot better on your resume then working minimum wage at some dead end job. I'm also concern about the number of new grad students out there. Are we going to see masters degrees become worthless now that everyone and their mother haves one? Then again, there is a huge increase of students in Community College and most of them drop out once they realize that not having use math for 10 or so years means you're going to do poorly in something like Chemistry.
Or, you know, some people are just pointing out that "mooching off the sires" isn't even POSSIBLE for some people.
Or that volunteering while mooching off your parents as your student loans gain in size may not be the brightest idea.
Volunteer for six months, land a solid project management job that quickly gets up to six figures
vs.
Dead end technical writing job
Hmmm.
Well obviously you choose the dead end technical writing job. For most people, they need money yesterday and that car title pawn shop need their %400 APR loan pay off tomorrow.
It's an endless and deadly cycle for a lot of family.
100% agreed with the "how are you LIVING" sentiment.
Everything on that list the OP quoted is laudable and will certainly increase job prospects. However, that person can't be doing just those things and be making a living at the same time. What exactly are they going to do? Trot off to deliver their speech to a "local organization" from their mother's house, where she is left pulling hairs out because her child is quite literally doing nothing while she foots the bill? Or even better, does this person mooch off a roommate, who'll have even less sympathy than a family member? Or is this hypothetical person, spending a year helping a non-profit and delivering speeches, simply homeless?
I think you're giving up a little easy.
The makeup of this board is probably "rich" by world-wide standards. I mean, we all have access to computers and we like videogames. That means we're probably used to a lot of luxury. This might be what has to change.
Um, those things cost nothing compared to shelter and food.
Bullshit from, admittedly anecdotal, experience.
I graduated in 2008 with a pretty unproven degree (game design, basically). I moved across country with the help of family (and ~$15,000 in savings with no college debt). It took me about a month and a half to find my first paying job, during which time I was the news editor for an Xbox site (my article was the first from the E3 where they announced FF13 was hitting 360. Something like qunitupled daily site numbers) and I was doing that for free. Then, I worked QA at a mobile gaming company for about 3 months, and was let go in 12/08 down about $3,000 from my savings. It would take me 7 months to find another job, this time at an Apple call center. In those seven months, I attended IGDA meetings, designed a couple of pen and paper games, ran pen and paper campaigns that drew attendees from the industry (some TOR game designers were in a Knights of the Old Republic campaign I ran), helped with major game industry gatherings in the city, and did some blogging. I also pitched and started development on a small iPhone title. By the time I started working for Apple, I'd burned through around $5,000. Apple let me go after two months (coincedentally making me swear off call center work for the rest of my life) and I finished development on the iPhone game and released it as a free to play title on gamesalad.com. I also started working with local Flash developers on a game based around the whole Tim Langdell controversy, and in July I was picked up to do part-time QA for a small peripheral manufacturer.
If you've got the savings, you can very much do what this article advises. However, I'll also say that pursuing a dream, or a career, requires lots of sacrifice. I cut out dining out for about 6 months. If I had to eat out (i.e. nothing in the pantry), I never went over $7 and never tipped. I used the bus, and I also learned how to drive so I could make it to farther out job interviews. I walked to get groceries, about a mile and a half round trip (which is pretty awful in Texas summer).
Now, I'm also horribly lucky. I had a family that could buy me a car, and enabled me to graduate college without outstanding debt. I could, basically, live off of 0 income for a while and do what needed to be done to find a career. For those that can't, living with parents or finding some other rent-free living is perfectly okay. College graduates aren't going to find work after graduation without some kind of sacrifice, and certainly (in my opinion) not without doing a TON of work for free.
First of all- and I'm surprised no one has mentioned this- if you take out student loans to pay for your undergrad degree, you have to pay them back as soon as you graduate. Whether or not you've found a job. Grad school, however, allows you to defer paying them back for a while, so a lot of people are pretty much forced to go to grad school if they can't quickly find a job (and a minimum wage job probably won't pay enough).
I don't think that there's anything particularly wrong with getting help from your parents for a while after you graduate. A lot of people seem to think that a "real man" is someone who does it all for himself, with no help at all. I guess if you can do that, that's great, but that seems to be just making life unnecessarily hard. Most people who go that route end up stuck in debt and low paying jobs for their entire life. If you have an easier route, you might as well take it.
I also think grad school makes a lot of sense right now. When I did job hunting right after graduating, it seemed like it mostly went like this:
Employer: We've got 20 applicants who all have a lot of experience in this industry. What job experience do you have?
me: Well I did really in my university studies..
Employer: yeah we don't give a fuck about that. Maybe if you're lucky we'll let you do an unpaid internship.
Doing stuff like the OP suggested is another route you can take, but 1) it's really hard to keep yourself disciplined and motivated when you're just doing stuff like that as a hobby, basically and 2)it's hard to really demonstrate to others what you're doing. At least grad school gives you a nice diploma that you can show off to employers.
I think working a minimum wage job is a complete waste of time though. Of course it'll give you enough to live, and if you actually enjoy that job than, sure, go nuts. But it seems like most people doing that will hate the job, learn nothing from it, and after work they're so exhausted that they don't have the energy to do more job hunting or job training.
If I had to rank the options for new college grads I'd put it like this:
1)Get a good job. good luck with that lol
2)Grad school/ other education, focused on getting a specific kind of job after you finish (and waiting for the economy to improve)
3)self-motivated study/training/volunteer work, like what OP suggested
4)minimum wage job
100% agreed with the "how are you LIVING" sentiment.
Everything on that list the OP quoted is laudable and will certainly increase job prospects. However, that person can't be doing just those things and be making a living at the same time. What exactly are they going to do? Trot off to deliver their speech to a "local organization" from their mother's house, where she is left pulling hairs out because her child is quite literally doing nothing while she foots the bill? Or even better, does this person mooch off a roommate, who'll have even less sympathy than a family member? Or is this hypothetical person, spending a year helping a non-profit and delivering speeches, simply homeless?
I think you're giving up a little easy.
The makeup of this board is probably "rich" by world-wide standards. I mean, we all have access to computers and we like videogames. That means we're probably used to a lot of luxury. This might be what has to change.
Um, those things cost nothing compared to shelter and food.
Bullshit from, admittedly anecdotal, experience.
I graduated in 2008 with a pretty unproven degree (game design, basically). I moved across country with the help of family (and ~$15,000 in savings with no college debt). It took me about a month and a half to find my first paying job, during which time I was the news editor for an Xbox site (my article was the first from the E3 where they announced FF13 was hitting 360. Something like qunitupled daily site numbers) and I was doing that for free. Then, I worked QA at a mobile gaming company for about 3 months, and was let go in 12/08 down about $3,000 from my savings. It would take me 7 months to find another job, this time at an Apple call center. In those seven months, I attended IGDA meetings, designed a couple of pen and paper games, ran pen and paper campaigns that drew attendees from the industry (some TOR game designers were in a Knights of the Old Republic campaign I ran), helped with major game industry gatherings in the city, and did some blogging. I also pitched and started development on a small iPhone title. By the time I started working for Apple, I'd burned through around $5,000. Apple let me go after two months (coincedentally making me swear off call center work for the rest of my life) and I finished development on the iPhone game and released it as a free to play title on gamesalad.com. I also started working with local Flash developers on a game based around the whole Tim Langdell controversy, and in July I was picked up to do part-time QA for a small peripheral manufacturer.
If you've got the savings, you can very much do what this article advises. However, I'll also say that pursuing a dream, or a career, requires lots of sacrifice. I cut out dining out for about 6 months. If I had to eat out (i.e. nothing in the pantry), I never went over $7 and never tipped. I used the bus, and I also learned how to drive so I could make it to farther out job interviews. I walked to get groceries, about a mile and a half round trip (which is pretty awful in Texas summer).
Now, I'm also horribly lucky. I had a family that could buy me a car, and enabled me to graduate college without outstanding debt. I could, basically, live off of 0 income for a while and do what needed to be done to find a career. For those that can't, living with parents or finding some other rent-free living is perfectly okay. College graduates aren't going to find work after graduation without some kind of sacrifice, and certainly (in my opinion) not without doing a TON of work for free.
You may be lucky to have a job, but surely your aspiration isn't doing part-time QA? I will say that what you're doing right now is a billion times more productive than what the op is suggesting, since you're actually getting paid positions with actual responsibility in your chosen field. The op's suggestions are all over the place, from "mastering" programming languages to "coaching" childrens sports teams to "mastering" a foreign language.
If you went and got a masters degree in electrical engineering, you could be doing a lot more than QA.
Or, you know, some people are just pointing out that "mooching off the sires" isn't even POSSIBLE for some people.
Or that volunteering while mooching off your parents as your student loans gain in size may not be the brightest idea.
Volunteer for six months, land a solid project management job that quickly gets up to six figures
vs.
Dead end technical writing job
Hmmm.
Yes, that's ALWAYS the choice.
Right now it is.
For who?
Recent engineering graduates not in construction/MIT
well if your undergrad degree is in engineering then you really have the best job prospects of pretty much any new graduate. If your degree is in something less job-focused then a technical writing job is actually a pretty sweet gig these days.
underexperienced because they never worked? huh funny... I thought I was arguing that they should get a job. Even jobs where they hire people with no experience so this may not be a problem anymore. (If that was directed at me)
Except that's kind of, you know, the point of this thread. That the economy is shitty, so companies aren't hireing, and those that are are picking up the experienced people who were laid off.
And Robman, I'd love to hear where these magical PM jobs are, as I am a recent engineer graduate, who hasn't been having any luck finding entry level positions
Or, you know, some people are just pointing out that "mooching off the sires" isn't even POSSIBLE for some people.
That's fine. The suggestions in the OP aren't meant to apply to every single person. Obviously you need SOME financial buffer, but it doesn't have to be as much as you think. Your parents let you stay in their house for 20-25 years. They can let you stay there for a couple more years, no? The only people for whom the answer would really be no are those who are living in deep poverty.
Or that volunteering while mooching off your parents as your student loans gain in size may not be the brightest idea.
It may or may not be. It depends on the size of your loans. Volunteering is often times a very smart idea.
1. For lots of volunteer activities, especially desk-job types, you typically have lots of free time during which you can do other things, such as searching for jobs or reading technical books
2. You can learn valuable skills during volunteering itself
3. You can meet lots of new people, both volunteers, and customers of the organization you are volunteering for, and some of these can even be employers
4. It looks pretty good on your resume especially if the experience is relevant to the job you are applying for (such as accounting or building a website for a non-profit or leading a project)
The only disadvantage with volunteering is that you aren't making money immediately. But it can be an excellent investment towards the near future.
underexperienced because they never worked? huh funny... I thought I was arguing that they should get a job. Even jobs where they hire people with no experience so this may not be a problem anymore. (If that was directed at me)
Except that's kind of, you know, the point of this thread. That the economy is shitty, so companies aren't hireing, and those that are are picking up the experienced people who were laid off.
And Robman, I'd love to hear where these magical PM jobs are, as I am a recent engineer graduate, who hasn't been having any luck finding entry level positions
Paid PM work requires PM experience. Non-profits and NGOs are always short on people, and will take on people who actually have the skills to manage projects in a heartbeat. They're pretty much the only way to break into PM at this point.
Trust me, I know about the hiring from the experienced pool thing... 1 in 3 biotech firms around San Fran alone closed their doors through the recession thus far, and many more are still failing. The entire biotech industry in North America has shit the bed. In fact it's gone beyond shitting the bed, the poo is spilling over the bedroom floor and making it difficult to open the door.
Deciding to write my MCATs this summer was an easy decision.
I will say that what you're doing right now is a billion times more productive than what the op is suggesting, since you're actually getting paid positions with actual responsibility in your chosen field. The op's suggestions are all over the place, from "mastering" programming languages to "coaching" childrens sports teams to "mastering" a foreign language.
Way to totally miss the point.
I guess this is what happens when people take every single thing literally because they have no critical thinking skills.
The point is that, if you are finding yourself unemployed, grad school often times is not the best choice. The examples in the OP are just that: examples. Obviously they won't make sense for everyone. If you're doing software engineering then being bilingual may not benefit you as much as someone who would be going for customer service. And that's the big advantage - you get to pick and choose what you want to do, which skills you want to develop, etc.
The entire point of this thread is that hordes of people are retreating back to academia because they are too afraid to take initiatives on their own. Doing what someone else tells you is pretty easy (and that's what academia is - instructors giving you instructions and you delivering answers/work). Actually deciding what needs to get done, and doing that, is hard. This is why, barring extreme financial difficulties, grad school doesn't make much sense.
Posts
All ROTC will take any student pursuing any bachelor's degree, but it's on them to keep their grades up while demonstrating they're Officer material. But they offer big scholarships for high quality cadets, or cadets pursuing a degree on their Most Wanted list.
Air Force wants Computer/Electrical Engineers, Mathematicians, Nursing, and a big list of languages. But that should not suggest if you're outside that list you wont get a scholarship. There are a lot of Criminal Justice/ Political Science cadets who got scholarships simply by being really awesome.
Just because they are your parents doesnt mean you can't grow the fuck up and support yourself.
Awww, look at mr. high horse. Joined the Navy just to show people that he has grown up. So touching.
How does going to grad school play into this whole supporting oneself thing? What if one cannot get a loan or a grant? What then? Should they join the army like you?
I'm just saying that a 22 or 23 or whatever age you are when you graduate maybe your should get some life experience by actually supporting yourself.
Yeah, okay. So you didn't read the thread, or even the OP. Thank you for letting us know.
(Gosh, those unemployed people, if only they got a job like normal people, they wouldn't be such losers!)
The ENTIRE POINT of this whole conversation, which you would have figured out had you read the OP, is what people should do IF THEY CANNOT FIND A JOB. That's where this whole grad school vs. doing other activities to build one's resume discussion originates from.
What the **** does "life experience" mean, and why is it that being able to support oneself financially without any outside help the only way to get life experience?
It is very important that you answer this.
Because, working a job and supporting yourself is completely different from academia? Look at the importance of your resume and internships. Employers like these things because just about everybody can get through college but not everyone can perform well in a work environment.
I also read the whole thread but where you see people saying "I can't get a job" I see college graduates saying "I can't get a job that I want and pays well"
Working a job and supporting yourself is not the only way to build a resume.
Depending on the type, volunteering can be an excellent addition to any resume, especially if you are participating in or leading projects. It is also a great way to meet new people and build a network. In addition to that, you can spend some time learning another spoken language, or learning a technical skill like a programming language.
No employer ever goes "hmm this kid supported himself for two years, we should hire him". It's the actual experience and its relevance to the job position that matters. Working at Burger King for two years won't help you if you want to get a job as an engineer.
Uh, just about everybody can get through college? Is this why the 2000 census reported that 1 in 3 people dropped out of college before getting a degree? Is this why this number has risen since then?
How can you blame these people for refusing to settle for a minimum-wage low-skill or no-skill labor after they went to college for 4+ years?
Keep in mind, in some places in the US, even minimum wage jobs are filled to the max.
Navy, enlisted in the Navy, not the Army. These are distinctions that need to be made.
And what's so wrong with the idea of service? Asking not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.
Plus if you join the millitary you can always get tons of money for school, so unless your phsyicaly (or moraly) unfit there's always a way to get a loan or a grant or a scholarship.
Within the context of this thread, the distinction is unnecessary. Military is military, regardless of the branch.
Nothing is wrong with serving your country. I never said anything is wrong with it!
The military's benefits are nice, but they come with plenty of strings attached.
Living with your parents for a year while doing these things heavily implies that you're still in a mindset of a child, rather than that of the other person applying for a job who worked and found ways to improve their knowledge.
Maybe the number has risen since then since people's parents got fired from their jobs and couldn't pay for their child to go to college anymore. Also, I have been to college, if you got to a standard public university it is easy, unless you are working at the same time to support yourself.
I can blame them because sometimes people have to sacrifice what they want for what they need. Somebody with a college degree should be able to get a job somewhere. Hell, people straight out of high school can get jobs still. It just may not be what you want right then or for your career but it might help you get there.
I got a BA in Political Science, and I always wanted to do the Graduate School or Law school, but reading stuff like the OP and thinking about the debt I'll get just scares the hell out of me.
It isn't necessary though, unless you want to be an academic, for law anyway, although that appears to be changing.
You still have not explained why this is so. You're just repeating it like a broken record player.
You still have not explained why working at a job - even if it's burger flipping at mcdonalds - is the only way to improve one's knowledge, whereas things like leading volunteer projects or teaching oneself Spanish or learning SQL/PHP/Java does not.
Huh, funny, I thought you said people should stop being a child and grow up as soon as they can by, you know, supporting themselves financially. Now you are admitting that, oh wait, college can be fucking hard if you are doing these things simultaneously, and this can lead to dropping out of college.
Go figure.
Also, how hard your university is depends on a lot of factors. You shouldn't make generalizations.
And I find it incredibly pretentious of you that you think you know what these people need better than them.
You are so out of touch with current reality it's not even funny.
Stay out of law dude. Trust me on this - I went through similar decisions.
You can read stuff like this and learn all you need to know.
I need to sleep so I'll just say that I think you are a silly goose with very odd notions of what is acceptable for a responsible person.
Tomorrow when you wake up you should actually answer the questions I asked, k?
Of the things you suggested in your OP, only two have the potential to directly generate any revenue (and the business plan one, questionably so at best.) Several have costs associated with them. This makes them laudable suggestions for people who have the luxury of being in solid financial shape, either because they have low costs themselves (see: living with parents) or because they have money coming in. That means that for a recent undergraduate facing bills and so on, they aren't really solutions and they aren't alternatives to graduate school.
That part of the OP is sort of a red herring, really.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
On one side of the ring, we have this person who's very deep in the idea of individualism. I.E. "A real American is someone who is independent! He should be able to pull himself up by the bootstrap, work hard, own a house, and raise a family! For that is the American dream!"
On the other side of the ring we have a person who isn't as deep in the idea of individualism. I don't really have a good example of this, but fuck it lets just roll with it.
Now, I can understand both side of the story. I grew up in a family with parents with very different ideas with this subject. My mother came from a huge multi-generational family farm, where it's pretty common for people to move out of the farm only after they're well in their 30's (once they have a good career, and a place all set up to live at) or never move away from the farm and just bring their family there. My father was kicked out of the house at the age of 18, with nothing but a suitcase full of clothes.
After hear their stories and seeing how both of their lives ended up, I'm more inclined to agree on how my mother was raised. I honestly don't see the point of moving out and 'gaining life experience' as soon as you hit 18. To me it seems like 'gaining life experience' is just a nicer way to say 'put your self into a life time of debt', as you're force to depend on credit and loans to afford the necessities of life when you venture out on the world with nothing but a suitcase with clothes. Yes, there are special little cases where a 12 year old kid disowned their parents and are now currently billionaires. But, in reality, people just put themselves in debt.
Of course, America being a consumer base economy, it's probably a good thing that American citizens are rampant consumers with little regard about personal debt. If people don't spend money, people don't have jobs. So maybe 'gaining life experience' is actually a good thing for everybody in the long run?
With regards to the OP; I can see where the author is coming from. I mean having a few years being a project lead for a non-profit looks a lot better on your resume then working minimum wage at some dead end job. I'm also concern about the number of new grad students out there. Are we going to see masters degrees become worthless now that everyone and their mother haves one? Then again, there is a huge increase of students in Community College and most of them drop out once they realize that not having use math for 10 or so years means you're going to do poorly in something like Chemistry.
Or that volunteering while mooching off your parents as your student loans gain in size may not be the brightest idea.
Volunteer for six months, land a solid project management job that quickly gets up to six figures
vs.
Dead end technical writing job
Hmmm.
Yes, that's ALWAYS the choice.
Well obviously you choose the dead end technical writing job. For most people, they need money yesterday and that car title pawn shop need their %400 APR loan pay off tomorrow.
It's an endless and deadly cycle for a lot of family.
Right now it is.
Have free blackjack and hookers, get a job being a pornstar inspector
v.
Dead end technical writing job
Hmmm.
I don't want no Hooker STDs.
For who?
Bullshit from, admittedly anecdotal, experience.
I graduated in 2008 with a pretty unproven degree (game design, basically). I moved across country with the help of family (and ~$15,000 in savings with no college debt). It took me about a month and a half to find my first paying job, during which time I was the news editor for an Xbox site (my article was the first from the E3 where they announced FF13 was hitting 360. Something like qunitupled daily site numbers) and I was doing that for free. Then, I worked QA at a mobile gaming company for about 3 months, and was let go in 12/08 down about $3,000 from my savings. It would take me 7 months to find another job, this time at an Apple call center. In those seven months, I attended IGDA meetings, designed a couple of pen and paper games, ran pen and paper campaigns that drew attendees from the industry (some TOR game designers were in a Knights of the Old Republic campaign I ran), helped with major game industry gatherings in the city, and did some blogging. I also pitched and started development on a small iPhone title. By the time I started working for Apple, I'd burned through around $5,000. Apple let me go after two months (coincedentally making me swear off call center work for the rest of my life) and I finished development on the iPhone game and released it as a free to play title on gamesalad.com. I also started working with local Flash developers on a game based around the whole Tim Langdell controversy, and in July I was picked up to do part-time QA for a small peripheral manufacturer.
If you've got the savings, you can very much do what this article advises. However, I'll also say that pursuing a dream, or a career, requires lots of sacrifice. I cut out dining out for about 6 months. If I had to eat out (i.e. nothing in the pantry), I never went over $7 and never tipped. I used the bus, and I also learned how to drive so I could make it to farther out job interviews. I walked to get groceries, about a mile and a half round trip (which is pretty awful in Texas summer).
Now, I'm also horribly lucky. I had a family that could buy me a car, and enabled me to graduate college without outstanding debt. I could, basically, live off of 0 income for a while and do what needed to be done to find a career. For those that can't, living with parents or finding some other rent-free living is perfectly okay. College graduates aren't going to find work after graduation without some kind of sacrifice, and certainly (in my opinion) not without doing a TON of work for free.
I don't think that there's anything particularly wrong with getting help from your parents for a while after you graduate. A lot of people seem to think that a "real man" is someone who does it all for himself, with no help at all. I guess if you can do that, that's great, but that seems to be just making life unnecessarily hard. Most people who go that route end up stuck in debt and low paying jobs for their entire life. If you have an easier route, you might as well take it.
I also think grad school makes a lot of sense right now. When I did job hunting right after graduating, it seemed like it mostly went like this:
Employer: We've got 20 applicants who all have a lot of experience in this industry. What job experience do you have?
me: Well I did really in my university studies..
Employer: yeah we don't give a fuck about that. Maybe if you're lucky we'll let you do an unpaid internship.
Doing stuff like the OP suggested is another route you can take, but 1) it's really hard to keep yourself disciplined and motivated when you're just doing stuff like that as a hobby, basically and 2)it's hard to really demonstrate to others what you're doing. At least grad school gives you a nice diploma that you can show off to employers.
I think working a minimum wage job is a complete waste of time though. Of course it'll give you enough to live, and if you actually enjoy that job than, sure, go nuts. But it seems like most people doing that will hate the job, learn nothing from it, and after work they're so exhausted that they don't have the energy to do more job hunting or job training.
If I had to rank the options for new college grads I'd put it like this:
1)Get a good job. good luck with that lol
2)Grad school/ other education, focused on getting a specific kind of job after you finish (and waiting for the economy to improve)
3)self-motivated study/training/volunteer work, like what OP suggested
4)minimum wage job
You may be lucky to have a job, but surely your aspiration isn't doing part-time QA? I will say that what you're doing right now is a billion times more productive than what the op is suggesting, since you're actually getting paid positions with actual responsibility in your chosen field. The op's suggestions are all over the place, from "mastering" programming languages to "coaching" childrens sports teams to "mastering" a foreign language.
If you went and got a masters degree in electrical engineering, you could be doing a lot more than QA.
Recent engineering graduates not in construction/MIT
Except that's kind of, you know, the point of this thread. That the economy is shitty, so companies aren't hireing, and those that are are picking up the experienced people who were laid off.
And Robman, I'd love to hear where these magical PM jobs are, as I am a recent engineer graduate, who hasn't been having any luck finding entry level positions
That's fine. The suggestions in the OP aren't meant to apply to every single person. Obviously you need SOME financial buffer, but it doesn't have to be as much as you think. Your parents let you stay in their house for 20-25 years. They can let you stay there for a couple more years, no? The only people for whom the answer would really be no are those who are living in deep poverty.
It may or may not be. It depends on the size of your loans. Volunteering is often times a very smart idea.
1. For lots of volunteer activities, especially desk-job types, you typically have lots of free time during which you can do other things, such as searching for jobs or reading technical books
2. You can learn valuable skills during volunteering itself
3. You can meet lots of new people, both volunteers, and customers of the organization you are volunteering for, and some of these can even be employers
4. It looks pretty good on your resume especially if the experience is relevant to the job you are applying for (such as accounting or building a website for a non-profit or leading a project)
The only disadvantage with volunteering is that you aren't making money immediately. But it can be an excellent investment towards the near future.
Paid PM work requires PM experience. Non-profits and NGOs are always short on people, and will take on people who actually have the skills to manage projects in a heartbeat. They're pretty much the only way to break into PM at this point.
Trust me, I know about the hiring from the experienced pool thing... 1 in 3 biotech firms around San Fran alone closed their doors through the recession thus far, and many more are still failing. The entire biotech industry in North America has shit the bed. In fact it's gone beyond shitting the bed, the poo is spilling over the bedroom floor and making it difficult to open the door.
Deciding to write my MCATs this summer was an easy decision.
Way to totally miss the point.
I guess this is what happens when people take every single thing literally because they have no critical thinking skills.
The point is that, if you are finding yourself unemployed, grad school often times is not the best choice. The examples in the OP are just that: examples. Obviously they won't make sense for everyone. If you're doing software engineering then being bilingual may not benefit you as much as someone who would be going for customer service. And that's the big advantage - you get to pick and choose what you want to do, which skills you want to develop, etc.
The entire point of this thread is that hordes of people are retreating back to academia because they are too afraid to take initiatives on their own. Doing what someone else tells you is pretty easy (and that's what academia is - instructors giving you instructions and you delivering answers/work). Actually deciding what needs to get done, and doing that, is hard. This is why, barring extreme financial difficulties, grad school doesn't make much sense.