I figured this such a non-issue that it didn't even warrant a mention, let alone its own thread
Huge issue. I've already contacted the California AG's office and am tempted to file a small claim against Sony if this goes live. Their forums are maxing out with rage posts, even people essentially saying they would never use it still feel like they are being cheated.
1) They are removing features - and this is consistent with the timeline of the PS3 existence. Looks back to physical emulation and chip readers in earlier versions.
3) The reason I initially went PS3 over 360 was that I figured by the time this generation of consoles were being replaced the option to install an alternative OS and re-purpose the machine would keep it out of the dump and prevent it from being obsoleted.
I think what has happened is that this firmware update creates three camps of rage.
You have the first camp that uses OtherOS. Even though it has low memory, people use the Linux side to rip DVDs. (The SPEs can hella decrypt a disc in software), use it as a media server, allows use of Firefox, and for the extra nerdy people, access to very unique hardware. There are CS students who are using the Cell for their graduate thesis, and Sony is taking it away. There are also licensed PS3 developers that use using OtherOS at home so they can work on an SPE render pipeline. Sony does not allow you to take the TOOL development kit out of a secure location or else you lose your license to develop it.
The second camp are people who have been waiting for an update to fix various annoyances that seem trivial to repair, but Sony seems to just not listen. Some of these quirks are you can't delete trophies at it gets really cluttered if you rent a lot of games. Support for mpg4 movies over 4 GB and support for .MKV are also in demand. The backup system is a little broken. No cross-game chat. No Home updates. File management can be streamlined. (Try deleting 100 saves from FF13). Also some updates to the web browser would be nice, (see the first group). It's just the sheer oddness that an "upgrade" came out that removes an arbitrary function. The idea to remove something in order to fix it strikes some as just weird.
You also have a 3rd camp that doesn't give a shit. but they aren't as vocal about it.
===========NINJA EDIT===============
Wow Geohot just thew down the gauntlet
A note to people interested in the exploit and retaining OtherOS support, DO NOT UPDATE. When 3.21 comes out, I will look into a safe way of updating to retain OtherOS support, perhaps something like Hellcat's Recovery Flasher. I never intended to touch CFW, but if that's how you want to play...
I wouldn't care so much if Sony wasn't going with the "It only does everything" campaign. Sony, that's the campaign you should have started with. You know, when your console actually had features that the others didn't?
Don't. Take. Away. Features. Dammit, Sony. Even if it was barely used, it gets noticed.
I believe Sony made apparent a while back that they considered removing previous existing features, regardless of use or popularity, a "move in the right direction".
A note to people interested in the exploit and retaining OtherOS support, DO NOT UPDATE. When 3.21 comes out, I will look into a safe way of updating to retain OtherOS support, perhaps something like Hellcat's Recovery Flasher. I never intended to touch CFW, but if that's how you want to play...
I wonder if he remembers that the last guy who tried to make CFW for the PS3 got sued almost as soon as he got anywhere
That's a pretty bold claim, why do you believe this is so? Do you think sony would patch out a "feature" just because some guy faked cracking the hypervisor? You do know he made that stuff available, right?
Did you actually read my post? Where did I say he faked hacking into the hypervisor? He quite obviously did, but everything he's said (and shown) since has been pretty unreliable. Or do you really believe the 'hello geohot' screen is real despite the fact that it doesn't line up with the other text?
Silly goose, you implied that the screenshots were fake. I think it's forgivable if I inferred that to mean the whole thing was fake.
No, you are pretty obviously the silly goose here. I'll even quote my original post:
There is no way to fix it the 'right' way aside from a recall. Geohot hacked into the actual hardware, and while he can't do jack in there (despite his ridiculous claims/photoshops to try and save face), I don't think Sony's going to take any chances after what happened with the PSP.
In other words, I said he hacked into the hardware but can't really do anything in there. This is the screenshot I said was a photoshop, seeing as the text he added is on a different angle than the normal PS3 text. If he were telling the truth about that stuff, I think he would've shown a bit more evidence than that dodgy screen.
This isn't going to effect anyone's graduate thesis - those PS3's aren't used for gaming and thus there will be no need to update them anyway.
I do wonder if this has the potential to backfire. This provides an incentive for some to develop CFW to allow running OtherOS while still having an updated PS3. And I assume that once any piece of CFW is up and running on PS3 then piracy will follow very, very quickly.
Has Sony removed something else from PS3s after they were sold?
Yes we all miss our 2 usb ports, SACD playback, memory card reader and PS2 compatibility, but if you bought a 40gb PS3 or later you knew going into it what you got for your money. Or should have known, same difference.
Comments here and elsewhere makes it seem like Sony removes stuff left and right, but I can't remember anything else Sony removed from PS3s already in the wild.
Has Sony removed something else from PS3s after they were sold?
Yes we all miss our 2 usb ports, SACD playback, memory card reader and PS2 compatibility, but if you bought a 40gb PS3 or later you knew going into it what you got for your money. Or should have known, same difference.
Comments here and elsewhere makes it seem like Sony removes stuff left and right, but I can't remember anything else Sony removed from PS3s already in the wild.
I don't think so. Other than the hardware changes, they've only added more firmware upgrades.
People are probably bitching about the ports & BC loss, but that's completely different from this. I tried Ubuntu on mine and it wasn't worth the effort, though I heard Yellow Dog was a better build.
MichaelLC on
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acidlacedpenguinInstitutionalizedSafe in jail.Registered Userregular
insert Niemöller's "First they came. . ." poem here.
Really
You just equated losing BC in a video game system to the Holocaust
This is a thing you have done
Jesus Christ
I didn't equate shit.
The poem is most often used as an allegory for progressively losing things/features/rights until the point where there's no things/features/rights left to lose. It also conveys the idea that had you stood up for those things/features/rights in the first place you'd have a better platform to defend the thing/feature/right that is important to you.
Regarding the reports it runs dreadfully... it doesn't. It's by no means a power house but a number of new distros, drivers and fixes mean it actually runs "well". You're not going to play any games on it but as an actual desktop machine it's good. And it can crunch numbers for video encoding like nobody's business.
Ya know, despite all of Sony's PS3-related fuck-ups, they have yet to screw up anything that affects me personally, and as a result, I have been completely indifferent.
Though I would love to see actual numbers detailing how many people would be really affected by this. Too bad that would be impossible.
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RentI'm always rightFuckin' deal with itRegistered Userregular
insert Niemöller's "First they came. . ." poem here.
Really
You just equated losing BC in a video game system to the Holocaust
This is a thing you have done
Jesus Christ
I didn't equate shit.
The poem is most often used as an allegory for progressively losing things/features/rights until the point where there's no things/features/rights left to lose. It also conveys the idea that had you stood up for those things/features/rights in the first place you'd have a better platform to defend the thing/feature/right that is important to you.
I actually had to spell it out for you?
Jesus Christ
Ah, so you're using the slippery slope fallacy instead. Well, that's fine then
Also no, that poem specifically describes the Holocaust
You can pretend you weren't Godwinning but, uh, you were
Also that poem is really fucking pretentious if applied to anything other than, well, the holocaust.
Also it's not a goddamn civil fucking right to have BC in your vidja system, and it's an active insult you're even implying that the two inhabit the same realm of existence
What does this mean to me, as a "doesn't really fuck with his console" consumer?
It means shit that your playstation was advertised as being able to do is no longer possible on the machine you bought. I never use bluetooth headsets with my ps3, but if they decided to randomly patch it out one day I'd be pissed, because the box my ps3 is in says it supports headsets right there.
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acidlacedpenguinInstitutionalizedSafe in jail.Registered Userregular
insert Niemöller's "First they came. . ." poem here.
Really
You just equated losing BC in a video game system to the Holocaust
This is a thing you have done
Jesus Christ
I didn't equate shit.
The poem is most often used as an allegory for progressively losing things/features/rights until the point where there's no things/features/rights left to lose. It also conveys the idea that had you stood up for those things/features/rights in the first place you'd have a better platform to defend the thing/feature/right that is important to you.
I actually had to spell it out for you?
Jesus Christ
Ah, so you're using the slippery slope fallacy instead. Well, that's fine then
Also no, that poem specifically describes the Holocaust
You can pretend you weren't Godwinning but, uh, you were
Nice try though bud
well if it's good enough for Niemöller then I guess it's good enough for me
well now I know you're a troll.
You can pretend you weren't intentionally misinterpreting me but, uh, you were
Nice try though bud.
Also Dirty is proof of my point.
Finally I agree that the poem is really pretentious when used for anything other than civil rights movements, but it best described the point I was trying to make. I guess The Hangman would have been a better one to use but it is significantly more elaborate and isn't often used as an allegory to make the point.
Also that poem is really fucking pretentious if applied to anything other than, well, the political, racial and religious victims of Nazi Germany.
I agree with this statement.
Fix'd slightly because I'm a History grad student, and terribly anal on this specific matter.
Mostly because there was a tendency in the 70s and 80s to distort the original text of the poem to appear more politically convenient (the most famous example is replacing "communists" with "Catholics" and cut the Catholic line that appears later, because being sympathetic for dead communists was socially unacceptable). Some of these versions have basically gotten legitimacy over time, worst of all. To be fair, Niemöller himself gave slightly different versions of the poem when he stated it out loud, but I think he'd be pissed off too how it was being twisted as it is presently.
More relevantly, I'd be particularly pissed of Sony somehow removed BC from my pre-existing console (through a malicious update or whatever), primarily because I bought a PS3 in large part to replace my 3 dead PS2s (2005, 2006, and 2008 thereabouts). It'd probably factor in my decisions whether to buy another Sony console ("Buy our console, we probably won't remove features when expedient to us.").
Of course, I'd say this is extremely unlikely (versus dropping BC from new consoles, which happened and wasn't particularly surprising at least to me). And even then, it'd just be, well, false advertising and lying, not any sort of crime against human decency. Similarly, I don't remember Sony having so strenuously advertised Linux capability as much as BC, but I do remember them dropping the notes and the like. It effects a different percentage of people this late in the game, and while kind of a dick move, not the biggest dick move they could do.
Yeah, I can't say I ever had plans of installing Linux on my system, but this basically says to me that Sony feels it has the right to take away something I bought. Their reason doesn't exactly seem to be particularly pressing, either. That's what pisses me off about this.
Given the whole dance they've done with BC on the PS3, it doesn't feel too farfetched to say that someday they MIGHT fucking patch out PS2 BC for all PS3s. So far their plan has been:
Step 1: Include hardware BC on PS3s as a feature! Many people who have enormous fucking PS2 libraries are happy!
Sadly, manufacturing PS2 innards to put in PS3s is costly, and the system is already expensive to produce, so...
Step 2: Spend time and money developing pretty darn good software BC on 2nd-generation PS3s. It's not hardware, but hey, it works pretty darn well.
???
Step 3: Having spent money developing software BC, which has a per-unit cost of ZERO, stop putting it on new PS3s
I'm pretty sure ??? was "begin planning download your old games for $10 service for PS2 games." The official word from Sony was that they wanted people to buy more PS3 games, and obviously making PS3 games worth buying wasn't a good solution.
I love my PS3, but god damn Sony has done a shitty job of it this generation.
It's speculative, but I don't think Sony could resist the temptation to resell PS2 games (at a reduced price, of course), when the other option was "Let people keep playing their PS2 games, at no profit."
Besides, of course, the cost of the console itself, but that doesn't count.
And when did they buy those PS2 games? Five, six, seven years ago? That's, like, forever, so it doesn't count either.
(I'm kidding, of course, it's just too much fun. And MS is trying to cash in with their old titles, though thankfully they still make consoles with their own software BC.)
I was actually thinking of putting YDL on my PS3 for a couple months now. It's really not that much trouble and I wanted to be able to use a browser that wasn't completely crippled. Oh, well.
Step 3: Having spent money developing software BC, which has a per-unit cost of ZERO, stop putting it on new PS3s
There has never been full software BC. The first gen ps3 had both the cpu and gpu chips. The second gen used software to emulate the cpu but it still had the gpu, the third revision removed the gpu as well.
I’ll tell you what happens in Demon’s Souls when you die. You come back as a ghost with your health capped at half. And when you keep on dying, the alignment of the world turns black and the enemies get harder. That’s right, when you fail in this game, it gets harder. Why? Because fuck you is why.
Step 3: Having spent money developing software BC, which has a per-unit cost of ZERO, stop putting it on new PS3s
There has never been full software BC. The first gen ps3 had both the cpu and gpu chips. The second gen used software to emulate the cpu but it still had the gpu, the third revision removed the gpu as well.
The more you know!
I'd be interested to know what the per-unit cost is, because BC is pretty important to a lot of people and fucking A it can't be enough to justify removing it.
I was actually thinking of putting YDL on my PS3 for a couple months now. It's really not that much trouble and I wanted to be able to use a browser that wasn't completely crippled. Oh, well.
The PS3 browser isn't completely terrible. You can use a mouse and keyboard, and it supports flash
Posts
Huge issue. I've already contacted the California AG's office and am tempted to file a small claim against Sony if this goes live. Their forums are maxing out with rage posts, even people essentially saying they would never use it still feel like they are being cheated.
1) They are removing features - and this is consistent with the timeline of the PS3 existence. Looks back to physical emulation and chip readers in earlier versions.
2) They advertised this as a feature, and in fact are still advertising it as a feature.
3) The reason I initially went PS3 over 360 was that I figured by the time this generation of consoles were being replaced the option to install an alternative OS and re-purpose the machine would keep it out of the dump and prevent it from being obsoleted.
You have the first camp that uses OtherOS. Even though it has low memory, people use the Linux side to rip DVDs. (The SPEs can hella decrypt a disc in software), use it as a media server, allows use of Firefox, and for the extra nerdy people, access to very unique hardware. There are CS students who are using the Cell for their graduate thesis, and Sony is taking it away. There are also licensed PS3 developers that use using OtherOS at home so they can work on an SPE render pipeline. Sony does not allow you to take the TOOL development kit out of a secure location or else you lose your license to develop it.
The second camp are people who have been waiting for an update to fix various annoyances that seem trivial to repair, but Sony seems to just not listen. Some of these quirks are you can't delete trophies at it gets really cluttered if you rent a lot of games. Support for mpg4 movies over 4 GB and support for .MKV are also in demand. The backup system is a little broken. No cross-game chat. No Home updates. File management can be streamlined. (Try deleting 100 saves from FF13). Also some updates to the web browser would be nice, (see the first group). It's just the sheer oddness that an "upgrade" came out that removes an arbitrary function. The idea to remove something in order to fix it strikes some as just weird.
You also have a 3rd camp that doesn't give a shit. but they aren't as vocal about it.
===========NINJA EDIT===============
Wow Geohot just thew down the gauntlet
EDIT: Custom Firmware?
---
I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
Yea, it's what broke the PSP wide open.
It's not a ninja edit if you announce it.
Count me in the "don't care" camp.
The PS3, now doing less of everything.
I believe Sony made apparent a while back that they considered removing previous existing features, regardless of use or popularity, a "move in the right direction".
At least, their behavior would suggest that.
I wonder if he remembers that the last guy who tried to make CFW for the PS3 got sued almost as soon as he got anywhere
No, you are pretty obviously the silly goose here. I'll even quote my original post:
In other words, I said he hacked into the hardware but can't really do anything in there. This is the screenshot I said was a photoshop, seeing as the text he added is on a different angle than the normal PS3 text. If he were telling the truth about that stuff, I think he would've shown a bit more evidence than that dodgy screen.
I'll admit I was one of the ones super excited about it. Then it actually came out and I realised how limited it was.
I do wonder if this has the potential to backfire. This provides an incentive for some to develop CFW to allow running OtherOS while still having an updated PS3. And I assume that once any piece of CFW is up and running on PS3 then piracy will follow very, very quickly.
Really
You just equated losing BC in a video game system to the Holocaust
This is a thing you have done
Jesus Christ
Yes we all miss our 2 usb ports, SACD playback, memory card reader and PS2 compatibility, but if you bought a 40gb PS3 or later you knew going into it what you got for your money. Or should have known, same difference.
Comments here and elsewhere makes it seem like Sony removes stuff left and right, but I can't remember anything else Sony removed from PS3s already in the wild.
Geohot is a badass hacker. Thanks to him I can use my Iphone to connect to the internet.
I don't think so. Other than the hardware changes, they've only added more firmware upgrades.
People are probably bitching about the ports & BC loss, but that's completely different from this. I tried Ubuntu on mine and it wasn't worth the effort, though I heard Yellow Dog was a better build.
I didn't equate shit.
The poem is most often used as an allegory for progressively losing things/features/rights until the point where there's no things/features/rights left to lose. It also conveys the idea that had you stood up for those things/features/rights in the first place you'd have a better platform to defend the thing/feature/right that is important to you.
I actually had to spell it out for you?
Jesus Christ
PSN: SirGrinchX
Oculus Rift: Sir_Grinch
Though I would love to see actual numbers detailing how many people would be really affected by this. Too bad that would be impossible.
Ah, so you're using the slippery slope fallacy instead. Well, that's fine then
Also no, that poem specifically describes the Holocaust
You can pretend you weren't Godwinning but, uh, you were
Nice try though bud
Also it's not a goddamn civil fucking right to have BC in your vidja system, and it's an active insult you're even implying that the two inhabit the same realm of existence
I agree with this statement.
It means shit that your playstation was advertised as being able to do is no longer possible on the machine you bought. I never use bluetooth headsets with my ps3, but if they decided to randomly patch it out one day I'd be pissed, because the box my ps3 is in says it supports headsets right there.
You can pretend you weren't intentionally misinterpreting me but, uh, you were
Nice try though bud.
Also Dirty is proof of my point.
Finally I agree that the poem is really pretentious when used for anything other than civil rights movements, but it best described the point I was trying to make. I guess The Hangman would have been a better one to use but it is significantly more elaborate and isn't often used as an allegory to make the point.
Fix'd slightly because I'm a History grad student, and terribly anal on this specific matter.
Mostly because there was a tendency in the 70s and 80s to distort the original text of the poem to appear more politically convenient (the most famous example is replacing "communists" with "Catholics" and cut the Catholic line that appears later, because being sympathetic for dead communists was socially unacceptable). Some of these versions have basically gotten legitimacy over time, worst of all. To be fair, Niemöller himself gave slightly different versions of the poem when he stated it out loud, but I think he'd be pissed off too how it was being twisted as it is presently.
More relevantly, I'd be particularly pissed of Sony somehow removed BC from my pre-existing console (through a malicious update or whatever), primarily because I bought a PS3 in large part to replace my 3 dead PS2s (2005, 2006, and 2008 thereabouts). It'd probably factor in my decisions whether to buy another Sony console ("Buy our console, we probably won't remove features when expedient to us.").
Of course, I'd say this is extremely unlikely (versus dropping BC from new consoles, which happened and wasn't particularly surprising at least to me). And even then, it'd just be, well, false advertising and lying, not any sort of crime against human decency. Similarly, I don't remember Sony having so strenuously advertised Linux capability as much as BC, but I do remember them dropping the notes and the like. It effects a different percentage of people this late in the game, and while kind of a dick move, not the biggest dick move they could do.
The update after that will remove the ability to play PS3 games.
Given the whole dance they've done with BC on the PS3, it doesn't feel too farfetched to say that someday they MIGHT fucking patch out PS2 BC for all PS3s. So far their plan has been:
Step 1: Include hardware BC on PS3s as a feature! Many people who have enormous fucking PS2 libraries are happy!
Sadly, manufacturing PS2 innards to put in PS3s is costly, and the system is already expensive to produce, so...
Step 2: Spend time and money developing pretty darn good software BC on 2nd-generation PS3s. It's not hardware, but hey, it works pretty darn well.
???
Step 3: Having spent money developing software BC, which has a per-unit cost of ZERO, stop putting it on new PS3s
I'm pretty sure ??? was "begin planning download your old games for $10 service for PS2 games." The official word from Sony was that they wanted people to buy more PS3 games, and obviously making PS3 games worth buying wasn't a good solution.
I love my PS3, but god damn Sony has done a shitty job of it this generation.
Besides, of course, the cost of the console itself, but that doesn't count.
And when did they buy those PS2 games? Five, six, seven years ago? That's, like, forever, so it doesn't count either.
(I'm kidding, of course, it's just too much fun. And MS is trying to cash in with their old titles, though thankfully they still make consoles with their own software BC.)
There has never been full software BC. The first gen ps3 had both the cpu and gpu chips. The second gen used software to emulate the cpu but it still had the gpu, the third revision removed the gpu as well.
Let me tell you about Demon's Souls....
The more you know!
I'd be interested to know what the per-unit cost is, because BC is pretty important to a lot of people and fucking A it can't be enough to justify removing it.
It wouldn't be. Except the insistence on those four little words, which lend a certain...irony to the situation.
*Except specific things it used to do in the past which, in retrospect, we really wish we hadn't advertised, but it was just so tempting.
Not only can it not file my taxes for me, starting Thursday I can't even manually file my taxes online using it.
This is but one instance of things that matter to normal people.
Screw not being able to play Sony-licensed PS2 games, it can't play DVDs from other regions!
As a normal, DVD-watching person, that matters a lot to me!
The PS3 browser isn't completely terrible. You can use a mouse and keyboard, and it supports flash