How about the fact the Dungeon Master movie NEVER SHOWED. I have yet to see a reason why.
from the news post yesterday -
"it is entirely true that during PAX East, when a DVD of The Dungeon Masters went missing for a panel, my cohort did create a new panel on the spot and then operate said panel for its duration."
I was disappointed with the 'geek is no longer a 4 letter word' panel. The geekdad blogger looked bored to be there, and a good portion of what his wife had to say would have been better suited for a "Geek/Gamer Girls" sort of panel, and seemed kind of rantish. There was some interesting stuff to be said, but overall I didn't come away with much, except that people in the Q&A line need to know when to stop talking. When they said they only had about 10 minutes left for questions, the very next person in the line went on seemingly FOREVER about god knows what. A good amount of people (my group included) got up and left during this guys rambling.
Granted, there would have only been a few minutes left anyways, but as a moderator of a panel, you have to know when to step in and interrupt someone when they go on for too long, and aren't asking any questions...especially when there is still a long line of people waiting to ask something.
And my god, that NVidia 'future of gaming' panel was AWFUL. I'm not some adolescent kid who gets all excited by four letter words, so the whole crank that shit up thing got old after the third time he said it. The technology itself looks cool, but the presentation sucked in my opinion.
I'll cast another vote for MMO Behavior 101. This panel only works for someone who has never played a MMO before. It was best suited for a room full of executives who had no clue about video games and the people who play them.
Overall PAX was awesome--exactly what you said, no one treating me different or strange which was great! I can't say my online experiences have been nearly as good or my game experiences nearly as satisifying, hence my reasoning for attending such a panel. I loved the weekend and will definately be attending next year, and I hope they retry this panel idea with women who are willing to honestly address what is happening with females in the industry.
That's so strange that you experienced the douchebaggery by male gamers at PAX, because I was pleasantly surprised at how friendly and normal everyone was the whole weekend. Everyone was very respectful, no one acted like it was unusual/special/weird that I played games as a female, no one made any 'get back in the kitchen' jokes, and the guys who flirted with me were just normal about it, not immature. That's really too bad that they avoided the more difficult issues at the panel, and it's really disappointing you get that kind of treatment. I guess I've been lucky in avoiding a large majority of that, both in online gaming (save for some inevitable 13 year olds on XBox Live) and in person.
I was deeply disappointed in Girls and Gaming too. I think the reason the same questions kept coming up was that the panelists just weren't answering. They seemed to bend over backwards to avoid acknowledging that there even ARE problems and challenges that women in the gaming community -- and gaming industry -- face, and I really didn't hear too many satisfactory answers from them on anything. They didn't want to address the topic they'd signed up to address. The whole panel was without teeth.
Honestly, at this point, it feels like it might be worth it to just put in a submission for my own Feminism and Fandom panel for the next PAX East and find people who I know will actually tackle the questions they're asked.
Themiscyra on
PAX EAST 2011 Omegathon Finalist - PAX East 2012 Omeganaut After time adrift among open stars
Among tides of light and to shoals of dust
I will return to where I began
The following are the panels I attended and what I thought.
Hated:
Enforcement on Xbox LIVE: Tales from the Din Part 2
Good opening the rest might as well have been Stephen Tolouse reciting the TOU for Xbox Live, very defensive and felt like he was assuming he was talking to a bunch of modders/cheaters/etc. instead of gamers.
Disliked:
The Death of Print
I thought I could listen to John Davison and Jeff Green talk about anything and be entertained but there were sound issues and nothing informative, entertaining or useful came out of the panel
Neutral:
NVIDIA Unveils the Next Generation of PC Gaming
Join a live taping of Xbox LIVE's Major Nelson's audio podcast
Liked:
Sequelitis Snake Oil: Quack Medicine for the Video Game Industry
Kotaku and Croal: In Search Of The Best Games Ever
Loved:
Get Ready For Love: The Joystiq Podcast LIVE!
An Evening with Scott Kurtz
Blamimations ALIVE! with Kris and Scott
Penny Arcade Panel #2
Intangible 360 on
Remember - "If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe." -Carl Sagan
I was completely disgusted by the Girls and Gaming panel. I stood in line for an hour to attend the panel, and my line experience parralleled my experience as a female gamer. For 45 minutes I was continually harrassed by a male gamer with lines like "I like my girls flexible, and by flexible, I mean unconscious". Although your reaction might have been one of immediate disgust, please keep in mind that as a girl gamer, I can't even play Rockband online without some form of inappropriate reaction from male gamers. While I understand something unexplainable happens to males when they have to open their mouths around females, it gets taxing to have to be continually tolerant in order to be a part of something I love to do--play video games!
You can imagine my shock when the female members of the panel spent their time avoiding questions and flat out denying the frustrating experience of female gamers. I'm sorry, but simply saying that it doesn't matter what male gamers say, because "I'm going to kick their ass anyway" doesn't address the underlying problem of juvenille behavior toward female gamers.
This panel was timed perfectly to follow-up on the article recently put out by Game Informer discussing industry decisions toward female gamers and female characters within games, and these issues were left untouched. I was so disgusted by the panel that I walked out, frustrated that I could feel completely sold out by women who have an opportunity to be heard but instead choose to tow the industry line.
Since they didn't have the nerve to say it, I will: Attention Male Gamers, in the words of Will Wheaton, DON'T BE A DICK. Thank you.
It sounds like Scott Kurtz dealt more with the issue in the Pitch a Game panel.
Girls and Games panelist here. My heart has sunk so much hearing that most of you flat out hated the panel. As someone who is very opinionated regarding a good lot of the issues many of you bring up, I would have gladly elaborated had I been given a space to speak from my mind rather than to answer questions that I didn't particularly want to answer. Wave after wave of boring questions that I knew were going to be asked were brought up, and I knew after they kept coming I'd not have a chance to speak freely about the issues that plague me most. I was so nervous, too, looking at the sea of people, that some of my points were lost in translation from my mind to my mouth. I don't personally know the other women from the panel, and I wish some of them hadn't responded the way they did, but I do know after meeting them that they are all each intelligent, powerful women who are passionate about their craft. I would have liked to see the panel go differently, with each of us receiving a set amount of time to speak rather than answer questions with the moderator somewhat stealing the show. I am all for going out of my way to make a scene when there are things I know need to be addressed. I do apologize if you guys felt slighted or disappointed in me personally, as I was extremely proud to be asked to participate though I am not a professional writer. If any of you would like to speak to me personally about some of the issues you would have liked to have heard discussed feel free to contact me, as I prefer to keep an open mind and open ear for discussion. Because things are not right the way they are, and there is obviously a vast space for improvement.
If you want to do this panel again I'd definitely suggest taking these complaints seriously because I'm not sure anyone has said they liked the panel yet.
Yes, I've seen that particular one. It's unfortunate, as I did not volunteer to be placed on this particular panel -- I filled out an application and noted that I am able to speak on that topic, but I was more interested in discussing journalism. I was placed on this one as luck would have it. I'd prefer to let much more eloquent speakers tackle the issue, and overcome my own shyness next time, as there are so many women here that are better suited than I to face these issues. In any case, I am thankful for the privilege that I received, but I'd like to reiterate that the Q & A route wasn't one I hoped to take.
It was very disheartening after reading Game Informer's lengthy article about the issues the industry is having with both having playable female characters in games and finding ways to appeal appropriately to female gamers that the panel seemed avoid addressing any form of these completely legitimate concerns. I'm less interested in "girl power" then I am in female respect, a point which was most irritating as I sat through the Q&A. While I agree that the moderator frustratingly dominated the session (as if the panelists were completely incapable of hearing the questions therefore he had to restate them) he was the only one who actually provided an insightful answer when he brought up that young girls are raised to think that boys are good at math and girls are not. But also worth answering is why do I get "Dead or Alive" bikini clad volleyball girls shoved down my throat but can't find an advertisement anywhere for "Mass Effect" with female Shepherd. While a different format may have been preferred (by both panalists and those attending) the questions got repetitive and annoying because they simply weren't answered any of the times they were asked.
I had this panel circled on my schedule the moment it was published as an option, and I walked out because I was so offended that the things I know need to be addressed were dismissed with superifical comments about how "sex sells" or "we're all just gamers."
I appreciate your post Molotov Cupcake and hope that there will be future opportunites for real discussion.
I really dislike the pure Q&A format as it relied too heavily on the audience thinking up questions on the spot. It works for less formal stuff like the PA panels because I'm going there to be entertained. There should be some presentation before hand for the heavier stuff.
The girls in games panel was one I missed that I planned on seeing. Hopefully they'll do a better format for it next time.
Sterica on
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ProprietyPAX Pokemon League Leader!Registered Userregular
edited March 2010
I was very disappointed with the Girls and Games panel, as well. I was surprised and dismayed that the panel was just a Q&A. Very few of the questions were good, and most of those were never really discussed in any depth. I was shocked to hear one panelist (I believe it was the representative from Turbine) completely downplay the struggles women go through in the gaming world, as well as the fields of science and math. As a feminist, I was surprised at how... lacking in feminism the whole thing turned out to be. I was expecting it to be much more progressive than it was. The questioners seemed more progressive than most of the panelists!
I wish the panelists had had the opportunity to just speak with each other, instead of having to go through the line of questions, and not really being able to answer any of them. I think it's the fault of the format more than anything else. Molotov Cupcake, I would have liked to hear more of what you and Alexis Hebert had to say, honestly.
Propriety on
That guy with the ridiculously long scarf at PAX. Say Hi!
Love Pokemon? Going to PAX Prime/East/Aus/South? Challenge the PAX Pokemon League!!!
Really my only complaint was the fact that I missed my friend's "Design an RPG In An Hour" panel because of the line. I chose to wait in the line for the Keynote and despite leaving with ten minutes to spare the line was down the hallway.
I was the male WPI student that asked the Girls and Gaming panel about the gender divide in the technical/artistic fields.
I wasn't just bored by this panel, I was disgusted by it.
My girlfriend was proud of me for having asked what we considered an important and hard question, and were surprised at the throwaway answers I (and the other questioners) got.
With the exception of the woman who said she was a MIT grad, the panelists were just perpetuating the stereotypes I thought the panel was supposed to address.
What the hell does "Hello Kitty hardcore" have to do with anything? Okay, so you like a brand that is tailored to females and also like to play games, what does that have to do with women not being encouraged to feel strong about their science and math skills?
Not only that, the woman from Turbine almost seemed to take my question as an insult... her answer was basically "I'll have you know, there are two female programmers at my work and they are great and just as smart as the boys."
...seriously? Obviously no one is questioning females' ability to fulfill programming roles, I wanted to know why women aren't being encouraged to pursue those roles and what the fundamental problems with the career stereotypes are. Telling me that a single digit percentage of your programming staff is female isn't exactly addressing the core issue or explaining the statistic, just reinforcing it.
Altogether, this panel (and some of the others) just reminded me that the games industry is like an elitist club, and was really depressing for someone like me who is an aspiring game developer.
I was the male WPI student that asked the Girls and Gaming panel about the gender divide in the technical/artistic fields.
I wasn't just bored by this panel, I was disgusted by it.
My girlfriend was proud of me for having asked what we considered an important and hard question, and were surprised at the throwaway answers I (and the other questioners) got.
With the exception of the woman who said she was a MIT grad, the panelists were just perpetuating the stereotypes I thought the panel was supposed to address.
What the hell does "Hello Kitty hardcore" have to do with anything? Okay, so you like a brand that is tailored to females and also like to play games, what does that have to do with women not being encouraged to feel strong about their science and math skills?
Not only that, the woman from Turbine almost seemed to take my question as an insult... her answer was basically "I'll have you know, there are two female programmers at my work and they are great and just as smart as the boys."
...seriously? Obviously no one is questioning females' ability to fulfill programming roles, I wanted to know why women aren't being encouraged to pursue those roles and what the fundamental problems with the career stereotypes are. Telling me that a single digit percentage of your programming staff is female isn't exactly addressing the core issue or explaining the statistic, just reinforcing it.
Altogether, this panel (and some of the others) just reminded me that the games industry is like an elitist club, and was really depressing for someone like me who is an aspiring game developer.
I was really suprised at how defensive the panel got after your question. You're right, the woman from Turbine did get annoyed and really tried to paint you as the bad guy. You were actually the second to last question I witnessed (Fem Shep being the last one). I agree with you, disgust would be the feeling I felt after this panel. I hope they give it another try next PAX.
I was really suprised at how defensive the panel got after your question. You're right, the woman from Turbine did get annoyed and really tried to paint you as the bad guy. You were actually the second to last question I witnessed (Fem Shep being the last one). I agree with you, disgust would be the feeling I felt after this panel. I hope they give it another try next PAX.
I'm glad someone else picked up on that. My girlfriend and I left after the Fem Shep question as well... at that point we could tell the panel just wasn't for us.
The panel on organizing a Child's Play charity was good, but the presenter didn't bring the adapter to connect his MacBook to the projector, so we were missing all the visuals. :-(
Hey, I totally fixed that...
...about 30 minutes into the panel
(Actually, I am really sorry about that. We had a really bizarre, and hopefully unique, adapter situation going on there)
I do want to confirm that the feedback here matters. PAX has a very limited amount of time for programming and the organizers do aspire to make all the material good. And since it's for you, obviously they want to know what you think.
Also: I'm happy to see that everyone seems to be on board with the room clearing after panels. Personally, I hate seeing people camp out in theaters at other cons waiting for the next panel while denying a seat to someone who wants to see the current one. There were those who thought that maybe kicking everyone out would be a controversial move, but I've always felt it was a solid idea; certainly for the satellite theaters, anyway.
I went to the MMO Behaviour panel and left a bit early. Intuitive (in the bad way) and boring. I'd love a panel on real gaming research and issues, real talk about the psychology associated with games in general, but...nada.
"People can be mean, but MMOs are overall a positive thing anecdoteanecdote" x5.
I was really suprised at how defensive the panel got after your question. You're right, the woman from Turbine did get annoyed and really tried to paint you as the bad guy. You were actually the second to last question I witnessed (Fem Shep being the last one). I agree with you, disgust would be the feeling I felt after this panel. I hope they give it another try next PAX.
I'm glad someone else picked up on that. My girlfriend and I left after the Fem Shep question as well... at that point we could tell the panel just wasn't for us.
Yeah when she said "We got 70 programmers and 2 of them are woman" I wanted to stand up and tell her she was making your point for you.
On a side note, I'm in a different industry than you are trying to get into and I have to say they're all the same... so don't get discouraged by the perception of elitism, every business is that way. Not to sound cliche, but all you really need to do is bust your ass and work hard... it also doesn't hurt to know someone.
I didn't bother with queuing up for the panel because those tend to be terrible. I'm either hearing about how women are totally represented in the development and technical aspects of the game equally (which is not true) or it's swung the other way to how I should be horribly offended by Miranda's ass and how if I'm not then I'm a bad woman.
I was the male WPI student that asked the Girls and Gaming panel about the gender divide in the technical/artistic fields.
I wasn't just bored by this panel, I was disgusted by it.
My girlfriend was proud of me for having asked what we considered an important and hard question, and were surprised at the throwaway answers I (and the other questioners) got.
With the exception of the woman who said she was a MIT grad, the panelists were just perpetuating the stereotypes I thought the panel was supposed to address.
What the hell does "Hello Kitty hardcore" have to do with anything? Okay, so you like a brand that is tailored to females and also like to play games, what does that have to do with women not being encouraged to feel strong about their science and math skills?
Not only that, the woman from Turbine almost seemed to take my question as an insult... her answer was basically "I'll have you know, there are two female programmers at my work and they are great and just as smart as the boys."
...seriously? Obviously no one is questioning females' ability to fulfill programming roles, I wanted to know why women aren't being encouraged to pursue those roles and what the fundamental problems with the career stereotypes are. Telling me that a single digit percentage of your programming staff is female isn't exactly addressing the core issue or explaining the statistic, just reinforcing it.
Altogether, this panel (and some of the others) just reminded me that the games industry is like an elitist club, and was really depressing for someone like me who is an aspiring game developer.
We are quickly destroying that mold though. Digital distribution and independent platforms for development are opening up the process to more and more people.
Keep with it, most of the time if you want to affect change, you have to start doing it away from the mainstream.
Most of the panels needed to be longer, I think. It seemed like there was barely time to cover the basics so that everyone was on the same page before the panel was over. A lot of this was also that a lot of time was lost to wrangling lineups and time slew and so on.
The Iwadon panel was extremely weak. I feel bad saying that because the guys running it were obviously really into it. However, most people went there to hear about Iwadon, and many of us were unfamiliar with him. Instead, it ended up being an endless listing of the bands that had collaborated on the compilation CD they were putting together, with a few irrelevant details and no audio clips or anything. It all sort of ran together into a blur. If they wanted to talk about the bands on the compilation, they should have focused on a few and shown video / played audio and given enough information about them to distinguish them. However, I think it would have been best to actually talk about Iwadon, his life, etc., which I feel like they barely touched on. This was one of the only panels that wouldn't have benefitted from more time.
The musical guests panel had its moments, but overall I found it a little disappointing, simply because a lot of people's honest and serious questions were brushed aside with pithy jokes, often just one short sentence or even one word. Since the panel was entirely Q&A, that left surprisingly little content. It got a little more serious toward the end, which was nice, but I really wish they'd either prepared an actual panel or taken people's questions seriously. One or the other, really. You can't have a great panel by having no talk or discussion but also disdaining the Q&A.
While I thought that the "Beyond Candyland" panel was very good, I think it could have been identified better in the program as being a board gaming 101-style panel. I can't have been the only person in the audience who already owned every game they recommended (except for Dune). This probably applied to a lot of the other panels as well. The Chip Tunes panels were great for me, because I knew very little about Chip Tunes, but they had to be kind of useless to people who were already really on top of the scene. So on the one hand, it would be neat to identify which panels were for n00bs (in that specific topic) and also to seed the programming with panels more aimed at people who already knew what was going on.
I went to Get Lamp and while the documentary on the history of the text games was well done - anything about current and future "interactive fiction" was kind of obnoxious. It felt like a club I wasn't a part of. The filmaker and the guy making new fiction were both kind of douchy - the old school zork/adventure guys made it worth it.
I agree about the filmmaker. I felt that he was really self-aggrandizing and kept trying to steal the spotlight. Andrew Plotkin (I assume that that's who you mean by the guy making new fiction) barely spoke, though, which I was actually kind of disappointed with.
The film itself really had a nostalgic bent and sort of wrote off modern developments as attempts to recapture a slight glint of the glory days. I think if I'd have been Andrew up there I would have been pretty frustrated about that, because modern IF has put out some truly amazing work. I love Infocom as much as anyone and am gradually hitting up eBay to build a complete collection, but even I have to admit that the best games of the new era are much better and more compelling than most of the games of the old era. I wish the film had focused on that a bit more, but as he kept reminding us that it was a short cut and not the full film, maybe that was just the editing.
I do think that they did create a sense of cliquishness by calling on some of the audience members by name, and it did feel like when they were doing the Q&A they would give friends of theirs in the audience first dibs on getting their questions in. There's nothing like saying, "We'll let {Joe Whoever} speak, and then we'll go to the gentleman in the back." to make people feel second-class.
I went to Get Lamp and while the documentary on the history of the text games was well done - anything about current and future "interactive fiction" was kind of obnoxious. It felt like a club I wasn't a part of. The filmaker and the guy making new fiction were both kind of douchy - the old school zork/adventure guys made it worth it.
I agree about the filmmaker. I felt that he was really self-aggrandizing and kept trying to steal the spotlight. Andrew Plotkin (I assume that that's who you mean by the guy making new fiction) barely spoke, though, which I was actually kind of disappointed with.
The film itself really had a nostalgic bent and sort of wrote off modern developments as attempts to recapture a slight glint of the glory days. I think if I'd have been Andrew up there I would have been pretty frustrated about that, because modern IF has put out some truly amazing work. I love Infocom as much as anyone and am gradually hitting up eBay to build a complete collection, but even I have to admit that the best games of the new era are much better and more compelling than most of the games of the old era. I wish the film had focused on that a bit more, but as he kept reminding us that it was a short cut and not the full film, maybe that was just the editing.
I do think that they did create a sense of cliquishness by calling on some of the audience members by name, and it did feel like when they were doing the Q&A they would give friends of theirs in the audience first dibs on getting their questions in. There's nothing like saying, "We'll let {Joe Whoever} speak, and then we'll go to the gentleman in the back." to make people feel second-class.
Looking back you're right - I think it was much less Plotkin and more the filmmaker. The author (is that the best way to describe a creator of IF?) really was just answering the questions put before him and maybe that was my issue with him. The filmmaker chose to focus the block of the film we saw and the panel a bit on commercial viability rather than the creative process of new IF and maybe that's what made it come across as douchy. I think self-aggrandizing summed it up very well.
Plotkin's obviously a hobbiest and the questions made it sound like he was digging for ways to make profit rather than discussing his creations and that focus probably is what rubbed me the wrong way.
Oh, yes -- and obviously I'm disappointed that the Dungeon Masters people never appeared, and neither did the DVD, and (as far as I've seen) we haven't had an apology or explanation from them. But since Gabe came by and ran a panel on DMing -- a totally unique, unexpected, unforgettable experience -- I can't get TOO broken up about it.
Themiscyra on
PAX EAST 2011 Omegathon Finalist - PAX East 2012 Omeganaut After time adrift among open stars
Among tides of light and to shoals of dust
I will return to where I began
Oh, yes -- and obviously I'm disappointed that the Dungeon Masters people never appeared, and neither did the DVD, and (as far as I've seen) we haven't had an apology or explanation from them. But since Gabe came by and ran a panel on DMing -- a totally unique, unexpected, unforgettable experience -- I can't get TOO broken up about it.
Were the dungeon master folks actually supposed to be there? The schedule on the PAX website makes no mention of any appearances. Tycho mentioned in Monday's newspost that the DVD went missing, I think that's about as much of an explanation as you can get.
Were the dungeon master folks actually supposed to be there? The schedule on the PAX website makes no mention of any appearances. Tycho mentioned in Monday's newspost that the DVD went missing, I think that's about as much of an explanation as you can get.
Well, we were told by the Enforcer who explained that a solution was coming that, yeah, the filmmakers were supposed to be there and were supposed to bring the DVD, and they never showed. She could have been mistaken, but I assume she was given a message to pass on to everyone.
Themiscyra on
PAX EAST 2011 Omegathon Finalist - PAX East 2012 Omeganaut After time adrift among open stars
Among tides of light and to shoals of dust
I will return to where I began
Next year, there should be another females in gaming panel.
Instead of placing all random volunteers in it, the organizers should reach out to one or two prominent feminists and get them on the panel. People who are known for being feminists, and not for happening to be females in the gaming industry, which seemingly was the only qualification*
As a male feminist, I was disgusted by what I heard on that panel. The female feminist next to me - who, unlike me, has to experience sexism every day - was livid. What a wasted opportunity to inject some reality into a pax that was marred throughout by casual sexism (Wheaton's "aimed at teenage girls" remark during the keynote was especially thoughtless, as was the borderline harassment of female audience members during the IGN live podcast).
*and it's shameful that they were able to hide 95% of the female industry volunteers on this panel while every other panel I went to was 100% male, including ones on journalism, Molotov.
Next year, there should be another females in gaming panel.
Instead of placing all random volunteers in it, the organizers should reach out to one or two prominent feminists and get them on the panel. People who are known for being feminists, and not for happening to be females in the gaming industry, which seemingly was the only qualification*
As a male feminist, I was disgusted by what I heard on that panel. The female feminist next to me - who, unlike me, has to experience sexism every day - was livid. What a wasted opportunity to inject some reality into a pax that was marred throughout by casual sexism (Wheaton's "aimed at teenage girls" remark during the keynote was especially thoughtless, as was the borderline harassment of female audience members during the IGN live podcast).
*and it's shameful that they were able to hide 95% of the female industry volunteers on this panel while every other panel I went to was 100% male, including ones on journalism, Molotov.
Yeeeeeaaaaah.
How about no?
The only thing worse than getting someone who pretends there isn't a problem is someone who sees problems even where they aren't.
How about people who at least willing to talk frankly about the situation as it is, without injecting any ideology into it?
I had to register to reply in this thread. I'm kind of an old dude, father of two younger boys. I thought the Geek Parent panel was pretty bad, no structure at all, no actual tips or ideas regarding when or how much to introduce things to your kids. It was quite disappointing.
The good panels were the ones that were meant to be entertaining, the PA panels, Kurtz's panels, but the ones that were meant to be informative had almost no structure at all.
I've been to more than a few professional conferences over the years and these kinds of off-the-cuff Q&A sessions almost never work out well. Also, they could get more people involved by having sessions where multiple people give talks. Rather than make some group figure out how to fill up 90 minutes of time, you could have 3 groups with 30 minutes, maybe 10 minutes of an actual discussion topic and 20 minutes of Q&A. Those kinds of things have worked well from my experience and it gives the session a little more structure.
Lastly, man, that nVidia thing was a waste. Just show the damn game already. You've already got a whole hall full of people who are already buying your stuff, you don't need to play the salesman. That guy's whole schtick was just amazingly condescending. Seriously, "Crank that S#!T Up" was the best you could come up with?
I haven't seen a Girls in Gaming panel for a while, but I remember being insulted by the superficiality of the Girls in Gaming panel back in 2006. If I remember correctly, one of the panelists' lines was "I have an all-girl gaming troop, and we're good!" Uh, okay, nobody at PAX is surprised by that, and as a feminist, I think it's insulting that you have to try to prove your point by making an all-girl group and bragging about it. People can disagree with me, but the panel seemed to take it for granted that excluding men and bragging about being women to make a point was "empowering," and that really annoyed me. Even my junior high aged brother was bothered by that panel.
I think there is a good way to do "Girls in Gaming," but I think it does need to be more of an objective, clinical examination of the topic that focuses more on numbers and business strategies than the cultural dynamic issue. I don't think you'll ever have people going home happy if you talk about a hot-button topic that everyone has his or her own opinion on. And I didn't really *learn* anything from the '06 panel, either: sure, some women gave some opinions based on their own experience, but eh, it didn't really get me thinking about how things should change, except that smarmy all-girl clans should gtfo.
Anyways, I admittedly was not at this panel, but my tl;dr point is that Girls in Gaming panels are probably too controversial for their own good, since everyone has an opinion, and are too likely to be insipid/annoying/demeaning. Put them away until you get some more objective panelists/topics of discussion
Different topic: how was the panel on gaming start-ups ("I HAVE A GREAT IDEA FOR A GAME!!") I was happy to see that - I'm more interested in GDC-ish/business-y panels, so I was curious if it went over well/whether there's a chance of being something like it at Prime.
I didn't get to see the Girl Gamer panel, but I can't stop thinking about this comic, and was wondering if this about sums it up...Sorry if anyone is offended, not trying to be a dick, but I think this illustrates both extremes of the girl-gamer issue pretty well.
capnjack on
Q: "You are in the garden. You see a rose bush. You have a fishing rod. Exits are North, South and IN."
A: "What do you want from me?!?!?"
I didn't get to see the Girl Gamer panel, but I can't stop thinking about this comic, and was wondering if this about sums it up...Sorry if anyone is offended, not trying to be a dick, but I think this illustrates both extremes of the girl-gamer issue pretty well.
I'm usually a lurker par excellence, but I registered specifically to talk about the Girls and Gaming panel. Fear. :P
I think this is a panel they hold regularly; I was at the one at PAX Prime last year, too. (Different panel; same moderator.) One of my friends commented afterward she thought this one was pretty much the same as the one at Prime; I didn't completely agree because I thought the one at Prime had done a better job of addressing the issues, although both did a lot of ducking. (Are people scared to talk frankly about the sexual objectification of women in games and game marketing? Or do they honestly think it's irrelevant?)
I also think the panel would be more interesting if the panel included an actual feminist--not as in the man-hating type, but someone who has actually studied and thought about gender issues and can speak intelligently about them. Bringing experience and theory together would help, and, since the same questions are asked every time, they might as well discuss them as a panel beforehand instead of waiting for the audience to bring them up. But, let's be fair--it's hard to do a in-depth discussion of gender issues and gaming in one panel. It could easily be broken up into four or five, since it covers so many different issues. (For example, women working in the industry, the portrayal of women in games, marketing to women, etc, etc.)
(And why is it Girls and Gaming, anyway? I'm not offended by the title, but I'm busy making my peace with turning 30 this summer. Am I really still a girl, as opposed to a woman? Should I feel I have to be? Does using the term 'girls' as an umbrella term to refer to all females in gaming trivalize them? Discuss--no, wait, I don't think anyone ever asked that question at the panel.)
As one of the girls(er, women) in N7 hoodies, I was a bit irritated the FemShep question largely got ducked, but I'll spare you the analysis of FemShep and gender issues I gave my friends on the way out.
I do think it's good the panel is offered at all, and I like that so many guys showed up and asked questions.
BTW, the community management panel first thing Sunday morning was the emptiest one I went to, but notable in that four-fifths of the speakers were women. Apparently it's actually a fairly equitable field, gender-wise.
I've seen references to this FemShep question and now I'm curious as to what the actual question was?
Here is the question:
Why do we see exposure of a strong, but highly sexualized character like Bayonetta, but no exposure Fem Shep who is a strong woman as well? You can play Mass Effect as a male or female Shepherd and the game doesn't change, but in all the marketing material you only see John Shepherd. Is the reason you don't see Fem Shep because she's not sexy enough?
That is how I remember the question, if others remember it differently please share your memories of the question.
I am so thankful and appreciative for all of this discussion regarding the panel. I'm a writer, not an orator, and I knew going into this panel that someone would leave upset with my thoughts or my responses to the questions posed. I had planned on speaking with my fellow panelists at length rather than answering audience questions, as before that day I had never spoken with any of them before in my life. I had met Julie briefly online but that was the extent of our meeting. I would have preferred discussion, as in a sort of real life podcast rather than being forced to deliberate and take turns on the spot to answer your questions.
Regarding the FemShep issue, I don't recall that I said anything on the matter, but did I want to. I never have used a female avatar simply because I'm too lazy to mess with the character editor, but I have found myself asking that same thing. Shepard is an ideal, not a concrete character set in stone. Just as Clarity pointed out, we only see a white Shepard. Both excellent points, and one that I also felt was completely dodged. As someone who favors controversy and discussion over smoothing things over and generalizing them, I found it a bit difficult to speak amongst women who are "proud gurl gamurz" and find nothing wrong with the industry, simply keen on "kicking men's butts" and whatnot. That's not me, and has never been what I'm about. Simply put, I like to bitch and complain. It was hard for me to speak up with my truest opinions in a full room when I was ready to speak to my companions rather than answer essay questions that I could have approached much easier had they been on paper.
I'll openly admit my expertise is not fully in feminism or the gender issues brought up in here and by the questions asked, as I study and analyze the realm of game journalism much more fully, though I most certainly do not downplay the struggles and the sexism we face on a daily basis. I don't feel as though I was the best candidate to choose for this discussion, and to those who were offended I do hope that I didn't nauseate you as much as I believe I did. I would have much rather been placed on a panel regarding journalism or grassroots community as I had applied for in the first place. But to those of you who stopped at the table to ask me a question personally or to ask for my card or details about my website, thank you so much. I hope that next year I see you all in a different discussion and that this one is not filled with boilerplate "everyone get along" answers. I'm used to being disliked -- perhaps these women wanted to play nice and keep everyone happy. And that annoys me the most, despite the fact that I enjoyed meeting all of the women and have since made friends despite the points that I do not agree with them on.
What's more, if any of you are keen on gathering together for a podcast hosted and moderated at my website, you're all welcome to PM me or contact me somehow to join on, as it'd be a wonderful opportunity for a rebuttal to questions you felt were unfairly answered. If anyone is interested in this do let me know. I have spoken to Valkyrie of the Frag Dolls and she may be willing to come on as well if that's not a turnoff to you girls wanting a fair shot at real talk.
Posts
from the news post yesterday -
"it is entirely true that during PAX East, when a DVD of The Dungeon Masters went missing for a panel, my cohort did create a new panel on the spot and then operate said panel for its duration."
I was disappointed with the 'geek is no longer a 4 letter word' panel. The geekdad blogger looked bored to be there, and a good portion of what his wife had to say would have been better suited for a "Geek/Gamer Girls" sort of panel, and seemed kind of rantish. There was some interesting stuff to be said, but overall I didn't come away with much, except that people in the Q&A line need to know when to stop talking. When they said they only had about 10 minutes left for questions, the very next person in the line went on seemingly FOREVER about god knows what. A good amount of people (my group included) got up and left during this guys rambling.
Granted, there would have only been a few minutes left anyways, but as a moderator of a panel, you have to know when to step in and interrupt someone when they go on for too long, and aren't asking any questions...especially when there is still a long line of people waiting to ask something.
And my god, that NVidia 'future of gaming' panel was AWFUL. I'm not some adolescent kid who gets all excited by four letter words, so the whole crank that shit up thing got old after the third time he said it. The technology itself looks cool, but the presentation sucked in my opinion.
Best panel I attended: Future of Online Gaming!
Honestly, at this point, it feels like it might be worth it to just put in a submission for my own Feminism and Fandom panel for the next PAX East and find people who I know will actually tackle the questions they're asked.
After time adrift among open stars
Among tides of light and to shoals of dust
I will return to where I began
Hated:
Enforcement on Xbox LIVE: Tales from the Din Part 2
Good opening the rest might as well have been Stephen Tolouse reciting the TOU for Xbox Live, very defensive and felt like he was assuming he was talking to a bunch of modders/cheaters/etc. instead of gamers.
Disliked:
The Death of Print
I thought I could listen to John Davison and Jeff Green talk about anything and be entertained but there were sound issues and nothing informative, entertaining or useful came out of the panel
Neutral:
NVIDIA Unveils the Next Generation of PC Gaming
Join a live taping of Xbox LIVE's Major Nelson's audio podcast
Liked:
Sequelitis Snake Oil: Quack Medicine for the Video Game Industry
Kotaku and Croal: In Search Of The Best Games Ever
Loved:
Get Ready For Love: The Joystiq Podcast LIVE!
An Evening with Scott Kurtz
Blamimations ALIVE! with Kris and Scott
Penny Arcade Panel #2
http://thephoenix.com/BLOGS/laserorgy/archive/2010/03/26/pax-east-day-one-penny-arcade-q-amp-a-the-quot-girls-amp-games-quot-panel.aspx
If you want to do this panel again I'd definitely suggest taking these complaints seriously because I'm not sure anyone has said they liked the panel yet.
I had this panel circled on my schedule the moment it was published as an option, and I walked out because I was so offended that the things I know need to be addressed were dismissed with superifical comments about how "sex sells" or "we're all just gamers."
I appreciate your post Molotov Cupcake and hope that there will be future opportunites for real discussion.
The girls in games panel was one I missed that I planned on seeing. Hopefully they'll do a better format for it next time.
I wish the panelists had had the opportunity to just speak with each other, instead of having to go through the line of questions, and not really being able to answer any of them. I think it's the fault of the format more than anything else. Molotov Cupcake, I would have liked to hear more of what you and Alexis Hebert had to say, honestly.
Love Pokemon? Going to PAX Prime/East/Aus/South? Challenge the PAX Pokemon League!!!
I wasn't just bored by this panel, I was disgusted by it.
My girlfriend was proud of me for having asked what we considered an important and hard question, and were surprised at the throwaway answers I (and the other questioners) got.
With the exception of the woman who said she was a MIT grad, the panelists were just perpetuating the stereotypes I thought the panel was supposed to address.
What the hell does "Hello Kitty hardcore" have to do with anything? Okay, so you like a brand that is tailored to females and also like to play games, what does that have to do with women not being encouraged to feel strong about their science and math skills?
Not only that, the woman from Turbine almost seemed to take my question as an insult... her answer was basically "I'll have you know, there are two female programmers at my work and they are great and just as smart as the boys."
...seriously? Obviously no one is questioning females' ability to fulfill programming roles, I wanted to know why women aren't being encouraged to pursue those roles and what the fundamental problems with the career stereotypes are. Telling me that a single digit percentage of your programming staff is female isn't exactly addressing the core issue or explaining the statistic, just reinforcing it.
Altogether, this panel (and some of the others) just reminded me that the games industry is like an elitist club, and was really depressing for someone like me who is an aspiring game developer.
I was really suprised at how defensive the panel got after your question. You're right, the woman from Turbine did get annoyed and really tried to paint you as the bad guy. You were actually the second to last question I witnessed (Fem Shep being the last one). I agree with you, disgust would be the feeling I felt after this panel. I hope they give it another try next PAX.
I'm glad someone else picked up on that. My girlfriend and I left after the Fem Shep question as well... at that point we could tell the panel just wasn't for us.
Hey, I totally fixed that...
...about 30 minutes into the panel
(Actually, I am really sorry about that. We had a really bizarre, and hopefully unique, adapter situation going on there)
I do want to confirm that the feedback here matters. PAX has a very limited amount of time for programming and the organizers do aspire to make all the material good. And since it's for you, obviously they want to know what you think.
Also: I'm happy to see that everyone seems to be on board with the room clearing after panels. Personally, I hate seeing people camp out in theaters at other cons waiting for the next panel while denying a seat to someone who wants to see the current one. There were those who thought that maybe kicking everyone out would be a controversial move, but I've always felt it was a solid idea; certainly for the satellite theaters, anyway.
"People can be mean, but MMOs are overall a positive thing anecdoteanecdote" x5.
Yawn.
Yeah when she said "We got 70 programmers and 2 of them are woman" I wanted to stand up and tell her she was making your point for you.
On a side note, I'm in a different industry than you are trying to get into and I have to say they're all the same... so don't get discouraged by the perception of elitism, every business is that way. Not to sound cliche, but all you really need to do is bust your ass and work hard... it also doesn't hurt to know someone.
Woo, at least you were reppin' WPI well. I was actually surprised I didn't see more kids from our school at PAX.
We are quickly destroying that mold though. Digital distribution and independent platforms for development are opening up the process to more and more people.
Keep with it, most of the time if you want to affect change, you have to start doing it away from the mainstream.
The Iwadon panel was extremely weak.
The musical guests panel had its moments, but overall I found it a little disappointing, simply because a lot of people's honest and serious questions were brushed aside with pithy jokes, often just one short sentence or even one word. Since the panel was entirely Q&A, that left surprisingly little content. It got a little more serious toward the end, which was nice, but I really wish they'd either prepared an actual panel or taken people's questions seriously. One or the other, really. You can't have a great panel by having no talk or discussion but also disdaining the Q&A.
While I thought that the "Beyond Candyland" panel was very good, I think it could have been identified better in the program as being a board gaming 101-style panel. I can't have been the only person in the audience who already owned every game they recommended (except for Dune). This probably applied to a lot of the other panels as well. The Chip Tunes panels were great for me, because I knew very little about Chip Tunes, but they had to be kind of useless to people who were already really on top of the scene. So on the one hand, it would be neat to identify which panels were for n00bs (in that specific topic) and also to seed the programming with panels more aimed at people who already knew what was going on.
I agree about the filmmaker. I felt that he was really self-aggrandizing and kept trying to steal the spotlight. Andrew Plotkin (I assume that that's who you mean by the guy making new fiction) barely spoke, though, which I was actually kind of disappointed with.
The film itself really had a nostalgic bent and sort of wrote off modern developments as attempts to recapture a slight glint of the glory days. I think if I'd have been Andrew up there I would have been pretty frustrated about that, because modern IF has put out some truly amazing work. I love Infocom as much as anyone and am gradually hitting up eBay to build a complete collection, but even I have to admit that the best games of the new era are much better and more compelling than most of the games of the old era. I wish the film had focused on that a bit more, but as he kept reminding us that it was a short cut and not the full film, maybe that was just the editing.
I do think that they did create a sense of cliquishness by calling on some of the audience members by name, and it did feel like when they were doing the Q&A they would give friends of theirs in the audience first dibs on getting their questions in. There's nothing like saying, "We'll let {Joe Whoever} speak, and then we'll go to the gentleman in the back." to make people feel second-class.
Looking back you're right - I think it was much less Plotkin and more the filmmaker. The author (is that the best way to describe a creator of IF?) really was just answering the questions put before him and maybe that was my issue with him. The filmmaker chose to focus the block of the film we saw and the panel a bit on commercial viability rather than the creative process of new IF and maybe that's what made it come across as douchy. I think self-aggrandizing summed it up very well.
Plotkin's obviously a hobbiest and the questions made it sound like he was digging for ways to make profit rather than discussing his creations and that focus probably is what rubbed me the wrong way.
After time adrift among open stars
Among tides of light and to shoals of dust
I will return to where I began
Were the dungeon master folks actually supposed to be there? The schedule on the PAX website makes no mention of any appearances. Tycho mentioned in Monday's newspost that the DVD went missing, I think that's about as much of an explanation as you can get.
After time adrift among open stars
Among tides of light and to shoals of dust
I will return to where I began
Instead of placing all random volunteers in it, the organizers should reach out to one or two prominent feminists and get them on the panel. People who are known for being feminists, and not for happening to be females in the gaming industry, which seemingly was the only qualification*
As a male feminist, I was disgusted by what I heard on that panel. The female feminist next to me - who, unlike me, has to experience sexism every day - was livid. What a wasted opportunity to inject some reality into a pax that was marred throughout by casual sexism (Wheaton's "aimed at teenage girls" remark during the keynote was especially thoughtless, as was the borderline harassment of female audience members during the IGN live podcast).
*and it's shameful that they were able to hide 95% of the female industry volunteers on this panel while every other panel I went to was 100% male, including ones on journalism, Molotov.
Yeeeeeaaaaah.
How about no?
The only thing worse than getting someone who pretends there isn't a problem is someone who sees problems even where they aren't.
How about people who at least willing to talk frankly about the situation as it is, without injecting any ideology into it?
The good panels were the ones that were meant to be entertaining, the PA panels, Kurtz's panels, but the ones that were meant to be informative had almost no structure at all.
I've been to more than a few professional conferences over the years and these kinds of off-the-cuff Q&A sessions almost never work out well. Also, they could get more people involved by having sessions where multiple people give talks. Rather than make some group figure out how to fill up 90 minutes of time, you could have 3 groups with 30 minutes, maybe 10 minutes of an actual discussion topic and 20 minutes of Q&A. Those kinds of things have worked well from my experience and it gives the session a little more structure.
Lastly, man, that nVidia thing was a waste. Just show the damn game already. You've already got a whole hall full of people who are already buying your stuff, you don't need to play the salesman. That guy's whole schtick was just amazingly condescending. Seriously, "Crank that S#!T Up" was the best you could come up with?
I think there is a good way to do "Girls in Gaming," but I think it does need to be more of an objective, clinical examination of the topic that focuses more on numbers and business strategies than the cultural dynamic issue. I don't think you'll ever have people going home happy if you talk about a hot-button topic that everyone has his or her own opinion on. And I didn't really *learn* anything from the '06 panel, either: sure, some women gave some opinions based on their own experience, but eh, it didn't really get me thinking about how things should change, except that smarmy all-girl clans should gtfo.
Anyways, I admittedly was not at this panel, but my tl;dr point is that Girls in Gaming panels are probably too controversial for their own good, since everyone has an opinion, and are too likely to be insipid/annoying/demeaning. Put them away until you get some more objective panelists/topics of discussion
Different topic: how was the panel on gaming start-ups ("I HAVE A GREAT IDEA FOR A GAME!!") I was happy to see that - I'm more interested in GDC-ish/business-y panels, so I was curious if it went over well/whether there's a chance of being something like it at Prime.
A: "What do you want from me?!?!?"
I'm so saving this comic.
I think this is a panel they hold regularly; I was at the one at PAX Prime last year, too. (Different panel; same moderator.) One of my friends commented afterward she thought this one was pretty much the same as the one at Prime; I didn't completely agree because I thought the one at Prime had done a better job of addressing the issues, although both did a lot of ducking. (Are people scared to talk frankly about the sexual objectification of women in games and game marketing? Or do they honestly think it's irrelevant?)
I also think the panel would be more interesting if the panel included an actual feminist--not as in the man-hating type, but someone who has actually studied and thought about gender issues and can speak intelligently about them. Bringing experience and theory together would help, and, since the same questions are asked every time, they might as well discuss them as a panel beforehand instead of waiting for the audience to bring them up. But, let's be fair--it's hard to do a in-depth discussion of gender issues and gaming in one panel. It could easily be broken up into four or five, since it covers so many different issues. (For example, women working in the industry, the portrayal of women in games, marketing to women, etc, etc.)
(And why is it Girls and Gaming, anyway? I'm not offended by the title, but I'm busy making my peace with turning 30 this summer. Am I really still a girl, as opposed to a woman? Should I feel I have to be? Does using the term 'girls' as an umbrella term to refer to all females in gaming trivalize them? Discuss--no, wait, I don't think anyone ever asked that question at the panel.)
As one of the girls(er, women) in N7 hoodies, I was a bit irritated the FemShep question largely got ducked, but I'll spare you the analysis of FemShep and gender issues I gave my friends on the way out.
I do think it's good the panel is offered at all, and I like that so many guys showed up and asked questions.
BTW, the community management panel first thing Sunday morning was the emptiest one I went to, but notable in that four-fifths of the speakers were women. Apparently it's actually a fairly equitable field, gender-wise.
Here is the question:
Why do we see exposure of a strong, but highly sexualized character like Bayonetta, but no exposure Fem Shep who is a strong woman as well? You can play Mass Effect as a male or female Shepherd and the game doesn't change, but in all the marketing material you only see John Shepherd. Is the reason you don't see Fem Shep because she's not sexy enough?
That is how I remember the question, if others remember it differently please share your memories of the question.
Regarding the FemShep issue, I don't recall that I said anything on the matter, but did I want to. I never have used a female avatar simply because I'm too lazy to mess with the character editor, but I have found myself asking that same thing. Shepard is an ideal, not a concrete character set in stone. Just as Clarity pointed out, we only see a white Shepard. Both excellent points, and one that I also felt was completely dodged. As someone who favors controversy and discussion over smoothing things over and generalizing them, I found it a bit difficult to speak amongst women who are "proud gurl gamurz" and find nothing wrong with the industry, simply keen on "kicking men's butts" and whatnot. That's not me, and has never been what I'm about. Simply put, I like to bitch and complain. It was hard for me to speak up with my truest opinions in a full room when I was ready to speak to my companions rather than answer essay questions that I could have approached much easier had they been on paper.
I'll openly admit my expertise is not fully in feminism or the gender issues brought up in here and by the questions asked, as I study and analyze the realm of game journalism much more fully, though I most certainly do not downplay the struggles and the sexism we face on a daily basis. I don't feel as though I was the best candidate to choose for this discussion, and to those who were offended I do hope that I didn't nauseate you as much as I believe I did. I would have much rather been placed on a panel regarding journalism or grassroots community as I had applied for in the first place. But to those of you who stopped at the table to ask me a question personally or to ask for my card or details about my website, thank you so much. I hope that next year I see you all in a different discussion and that this one is not filled with boilerplate "everyone get along" answers. I'm used to being disliked -- perhaps these women wanted to play nice and keep everyone happy. And that annoys me the most, despite the fact that I enjoyed meeting all of the women and have since made friends despite the points that I do not agree with them on.
What's more, if any of you are keen on gathering together for a podcast hosted and moderated at my website, you're all welcome to PM me or contact me somehow to join on, as it'd be a wonderful opportunity for a rebuttal to questions you felt were unfairly answered. If anyone is interested in this do let me know. I have spoken to Valkyrie of the Frag Dolls and she may be willing to come on as well if that's not a turnoff to you girls wanting a fair shot at real talk.