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Apple To Developers: Fuck You

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Posts

  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Dunno if it's been posted yet, but Adobe's pretty much given up on the iPhone now.
    Adobe will no longer pursue its plans to bring Flash to Apple’s iPhone and the iPad.

    Adobe on Tuesday evening said it is ceasing investment in a software tool that enables Flash developers to port software into native iPhone and iPad apps, according to Mike Chambers, Adobe’s principal product manager for Flash developer relations.

    “The primary goal of Flash has always been to enable cross-browser, platform and device development,” Chambers wrote in a blog post. “This is the exact opposite of what Apple wants. They want to tie developers down to their platform, and restrict their options to make it difficult for developers to target other platforms.”

    Adobe is reacting to a new rule in the iPhone developer agreement, which stipulates that iPhone and iPad apps must be coded with Apple-approved programming languages, such as C++ or Objective C. If enforced, the rule would effectively ban any apps coded with Adobe’s Packager for iPhone, a tool enabling Flash-coded software to be easily converted into native iPhone apps, released last week with Adobe CS5.

    Faced with Apple’s new rule, Adobe pulled the plug on Packager for iPhone. That ends, for now, any hope that Flash apps (or apps that incorporate Flash) will ever be able to run on the iPad or iPhone.

    Apple’s new app policy has been met with furious debate. Critics say Apple is depriving consumers of choice, because Flash apps that could have been on the iPhone will never see the light of day. Supporters of Apple’s decision, including Steve Jobs, say the move was necessary to retain quality of apps in the App Store and nimbleness of updating the platform.

    Apple has been steadfast with its lack of support for Flash on the iPhone OS. Some customers have complained that without Flash, iPhone and iPad users are missing out on a big chunk of the internet. Jobs said during a staff meeting that Flash was not supported because it is “buggy” and frequently causes crashes on the Mac OS, according to a secondhand account first reported by Wired.com.

    Rather than supporting Flash, Apple has reportedly pushed website creators to use alternative web standards, including HTML5, CSS and JavaScript, which are all supported by the iPhone and iPad browser.

    Apple said Adobe was incorrect to accuse Apple of locking in developers by not supporting Flash.

    “Someone has it backwards — it is HTML5, CSS, JavaScript and H.264 (all supported by the iPhone and iPad) that are open and standard, while Adobe’s Flash is closed and proprietary,” an Apple representative said in a statement provided to CNET.


    However, as simple as it may sound for web developers to switch to different standards, Wired.com’s Webmonkey editor Mike Calore said the transition to HTML5 for video playback would be complex. He explained that there’s no agreed upon video format for HTML5, and support varies greatly from browser to browser.

    “Not to be overly critical of Apple — anyone pushing for open web standards deserves kudos — but the company seems more deeply concerned with digging Flash’s grave than it does with promoting semantic markup,” Calore wrote.

    http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/04/adobe-flash-iphone/#ixzz0lqW7wgsG

    cloudeagle on
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  • CommunistCowCommunistCow Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Irond Will wrote: »
    Yeah I guess in fairness the failure of linux has a lot of mothers, but significantly among these is a complete lack of central QA or control. Nothing just works in Linux, and traditionally, nothing really just worked in Windows either.

    I guess what i am saying is that the expectation that the application developer should be able to do what they want with no interference from the device/ OS manufacturer strikes me as unrealistic and silly.

    Most things IMO just worked in windows since win2k. Double click a setup.exe then click next a lot and then you have a working program 99% of the time. This certainly isn't the case with linux even in the newer distros because you often have problems with dependencies, configuration files, or missing path variables.

    I don't think developers are expecting NO interference from apple but I think we should expect reasonable interference. If apple is concerned about application speed they should make requirements on application speed instead of limiting languages. If apple is concerned about stability then they should not provide APIs that can do bad things or they could require unit tests covering X% of the code. Most of their stated goals for the restrictions could be handled in other ways that are more targeted to the specific goals.

    CommunistCow on
    No, I am not really communist. Yes, it is weird that I use this name.
  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Irond Will wrote: »
    Yeah I guess in fairness the failure of linux has a lot of mothers, but significantly among these is a complete lack of central QA or control. Nothing just works in Linux, and traditionally, nothing really just worked in Windows either.

    I guess what i am saying is that the expectation that the application developer should be able to do what they want with no interference from the device/ OS manufacturer strikes me as unrealistic and silly.

    Most things IMO just worked in windows since win2k. Double click a setup.exe then click next a lot and then you have a working program 99% of the time. This certainly isn't the case with linux even in the newer distros because you often have problems with dependencies, configuration files, or missing path variables.

    I'm inclined to agree. Having gone through pretty much every Windows OS of the 90s, good and bad, since 2000/XP (I spent more time on the later), things have tended to "just work". Things don't always just work, but in my experience, it's absurd to assume that even in Mac OS X (I'm not even going to comment on OS 9). "It just works" is three-fourths advertising slogan material, if not more, though I guess "It works more often overall", while being far more truthful, just doesn't grab the consumer (and make as great a mantra) by comparisons.

    I don't get BSOD anymore, and I'm not even that savy a user (Windows 7 is new to me, I switched kind of late). When I DID, back in XP, I'd say 9/10 times it was due to N_view.dll....

    Synthesis on
    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Most things IMO just worked in windows since win2k.
    Just works? Hah. Don't even get me started on Vista.

    End on
    I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
    zaleiria-by-lexxy-sig.jpgsteam~tinythumb.png
  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Don't get me started (again) about iMacs.

    All the ones I use on a regular basis don't work. Now, if I were to make the assumption that all Apple computers were like that....hah.

    Synthesis on
    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    In my experience, nothing ever "just works".

    Actually, I guess, my phone does just work. And it's not an iPhone.

    Edit: Wait, shit, I did have trouble getting it to work the first day I got it. :(

    End on
    I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
    zaleiria-by-lexxy-sig.jpgsteam~tinythumb.png
  • CommunistCowCommunistCow Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    End wrote: »
    Most things IMO just worked in windows since win2k.
    Just works? Hah. Don't even get me started on Vista.

    Anecdote power: I owned vista for a little while before getting win 7 and everything installed just fine and I never had any crashes. Admittedly I didn't get it at the release so maybe it sucked when it first came out.

    CommunistCow on
    No, I am not really communist. Yes, it is weird that I use this name.
  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    End wrote: »
    Most things IMO just worked in windows since win2k.
    Just works? Hah. Don't even get me started on Vista.

    Anecdote power: I owned vista for a little while before getting win 7 and everything installed just fine and I never had any crashes. Admittedly I didn't get it at the release so maybe it sucked when it first came out.

    The service packs that came out after release made it suck a lot less.

    cloudeagle on
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  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Azio wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Azio wrote: »
    I'm afraid you're going to have to hold my hand here. If Microsoft suddenly locked up Windows and made it impossible to independently publish software for it without getting licensed by them, and then refused to license any software not written in C# and compiled in Visual Studio, then it wouldn't be Windows anymore, would it?

    Don't be a developer, be a consumer.

    It's really not very difficult.
    As a consumer I am mighty pleased with my (jailbroken) iphone. It's a great piece of hardware with a lot of really neat apps. If there is some earth-shaking killer app on android that would substantially improve the iphone if only it could be easily ported over, I am not aware of it.

    Whatever apple is doing clearly works. More, please.

    Jailbroken is the BIG difference there

    Evander on
  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Quid wrote: »
    Also that comparison doesn't quite seem apt. Microsoft didn't build those computers.

    If they had, that would make it even more of a lateral monopoly

    Evander on
  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    Azio wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Azio wrote: »
    I'm afraid you're going to have to hold my hand here. If Microsoft suddenly locked up Windows and made it impossible to independently publish software for it without getting licensed by them, and then refused to license any software not written in C# and compiled in Visual Studio, then it wouldn't be Windows anymore, would it?

    Don't be a developer, be a consumer.

    It's really not very difficult.
    As a consumer I am mighty pleased with my (jailbroken) iphone. It's a great piece of hardware with a lot of really neat apps. If there is some earth-shaking killer app on android that would substantially improve the iphone if only it could be easily ported over, I am not aware of it.

    Whatever apple is doing clearly works. More, please.

    Jailbroken is the BIG difference there

    Eh, my iPhone isn't jailbroken and my only real gripe is lack of Flash.

    cloudeagle on
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  • AzioAzio Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    Jailbroken is the BIG difference there

    :arrow:

    Azio on
  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited April 2010
    Synthesis wrote: »
    Irond Will wrote: »
    Yeah I guess in fairness the failure of linux has a lot of mothers, but significantly among these is a complete lack of central QA or control. Nothing just works in Linux, and traditionally, nothing really just worked in Windows either.

    I guess what i am saying is that the expectation that the application developer should be able to do what they want with no interference from the device/ OS manufacturer strikes me as unrealistic and silly.

    Most things IMO just worked in windows since win2k. Double click a setup.exe then click next a lot and then you have a working program 99% of the time. This certainly isn't the case with linux even in the newer distros because you often have problems with dependencies, configuration files, or missing path variables.

    I'm inclined to agree. Having gone through pretty much every Windows OS of the 90s, good and bad, since 2000/XP (I spent more time on the later), things have tended to "just work". Things don't always just work, but in my experience, it's absurd to assume that even in Mac OS X (I'm not even going to comment on OS 9). "It just works" is three-fourths advertising slogan material, if not more, though I guess "It works more often overall", while being far more truthful, just doesn't grab the consumer (and make as great a mantra) by comparisons.

    I don't get BSOD anymore, and I'm not even that savy a user (Windows 7 is new to me, I switched kind of late). When I DID, back in XP, I'd say 9/10 times it was due to N_view.dll....

    Win2k still had problems but yeah that was where MS began to turn it around. Win2k was the heyday of "shrug'n'pray" remember? XP was when it finally got to the point where you could reasonably expect purchased software or hardware to work on your computer. I know that the "just works" is a marketing mantra, but it's also a statement of Apple's UI philosophy and they do a pretty good job designing around it.

    OS9 was really bad, largely because of all the legacy garbage and maybe more importantly because Apple wasn't all that philosophically coherent on how they wanted to handle third-party developers. They wanted cross-platform development but also wanted to maintain control, so you got a whole lot of shitty ports that didn't really work.

    My intent here is not to say "Windows Sucks" and "Apple is Amazing" but rather to point out that design decisions like Apples have upsides and downsides, and are appropriate to some niches and times while being inappropriate to others. Like I said, MS scored big with their OS - they dominated the marketplace with their business strategy - but also made significant sacrifices in terms of usability.

    I'm unsure of how sustainable Google's strategy is. I mean, they're doing very well in a certain sense, but ultimately, Google is an advertising company that dabbles in technology. They can afford to give some things away for free, but their lack of oversight and QC strikes me as potentially troublesome on a device like a cellphone that I don't want to have to fuck around with.

    Irond Will on
    Wqdwp8l.png
  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited April 2010
    Synthesis wrote: »
    Don't get me started (again) about iMacs.

    All the ones I use on a regular basis don't work. Now, if I were to make the assumption that all Apple computers were like that....hah.

    I've had the opposite experience. Every windows box i've ever owned or used at work was in a perpetual state of dying, and at least once a year I'd have to reinstall the OS. I still own my old HP and use it exclusively as a media streamer.

    I mean, even making a windows partition on my mac was easy!

    Irond Will on
    Wqdwp8l.png
  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited April 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    Also that comparison doesn't quite seem apt. Microsoft didn't build those computers.

    If they had, that would make it even more of a lateral monopoly

    it would have made it a vertical monopoly of sorts, but those aren't generally considered as bad these days.

    microsoft got busted for anti-trust because they were (sensibly) trying to leverage their market dominance in order to dominate the burgeoning internet industry. The government (sensibly) forestalled it by bringing suit.

    Apple's situation, which is making certain demands to certify software they are willing to sell through their store, is absoluetly dissimilar.

    Irond Will on
    Wqdwp8l.png
  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    Also that comparison doesn't quite seem apt. Microsoft didn't build those computers.

    If they had, that would make it even more of a lateral monopoly

    But... they didn't.

    Quid on
  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Irond Will wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote: »
    Don't get me started (again) about iMacs.

    All the ones I use on a regular basis don't work. Now, if I were to make the assumption that all Apple computers were like that....hah.

    I've had the opposite experience. Every windows box i've ever owned or used at work was in a perpetual state of dying, and at least once a year I'd have to reinstall the OS. I still own my old HP and use it exclusively as a media streamer.

    I mean, even making a windows partition on my mac was easy!

    I wish I could say something to the effect of, "Windows even made iTunes easy!", but I can't.

    I used Vista somewhat late, around SP1, and I only had one problem with it. Namely, the defragmentation program GUI acted up. A very, very minor problem.

    On the contrast, I can say pretty confidentially that four of every five iMac computers at my university has a serious problem with it, if we combine both serious problems with the displays and actual software issues. It might be potentially higher. And shipping them back to Apple to address any of these problems is out of the question (cutbacks), so they'll be like that until they are thrown away and replaced by other iMacs so the cycle can begin anew. This is actually happening as I speak....somewhere on campus, there's a iMac that isn't fucked up, and is waiting to delete someone's partition or corrupt some file on the way to the printer.

    By contrast, the Windows machines (old Dells with XP on them) sitting in the Student Learning Center work pretty well...they even don't crash when we send files to print!
    End wrote: »
    In my experience, nothing ever "just works".

    Hah, I beat you to it!

    Synthesis on
    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited April 2010
    Synthesis wrote: »
    On the contrast, I can say pretty confidentially that four of every five iMac computers at my university has a serious problem with it, if we combine both serious problems with the displays and actual software issues. It might be potentially higher. And shipping them back to Apple to address any of these problems is out of the question (cutbacks), so they'll be like that until they are thrown away and replaced by other iMacs so the cycle can begin anew. This is actually happening as I speak....somewhere on campus, there's a iMac that isn't fucked up, and is waiting to delete someone's partition or corrupt some file on the way to the printer.

    You have a shitty IT department at your school.

    syndalis on
    SW-4158-3990-6116
    Let's play Mario Kart or something...
  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    syndalis wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote: »
    On the contrast, I can say pretty confidentially that four of every five iMac computers at my university has a serious problem with it, if we combine both serious problems with the displays and actual software issues. It might be potentially higher. And shipping them back to Apple to address any of these problems is out of the question (cutbacks), so they'll be like that until they are thrown away and replaced by other iMacs so the cycle can begin anew. This is actually happening as I speak....somewhere on campus, there's a iMac that isn't fucked up, and is waiting to delete someone's partition or corrupt some file on the way to the printer.

    You have a shitty IT department at your school.

    And we have computers with shitty displays that aren't easily replaced. An important part of the equation.

    I only know people who work in the PC IT team (for the learning center and libraries), I don't know anyone who works in the IT department for the schools of journalism, design, or art college. I'm pretty sure there is one though, because I once saw I guy who spent 30 minutes fixing a printer in one of the iMac Labs. It was kind of like seeing Big Foot.

    Synthesis on
    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited April 2010
    Synthesis wrote: »
    syndalis wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote: »
    On the contrast, I can say pretty confidentially that four of every five iMac computers at my university has a serious problem with it, if we combine both serious problems with the displays and actual software issues. It might be potentially higher. And shipping them back to Apple to address any of these problems is out of the question (cutbacks), so they'll be like that until they are thrown away and replaced by other iMacs so the cycle can begin anew. This is actually happening as I speak....somewhere on campus, there's a iMac that isn't fucked up, and is waiting to delete someone's partition or corrupt some file on the way to the printer.

    You have a shitty IT department at your school.

    And we have computers with shitty displays that aren't easily replaced. An important part of the equation.

    I only know people who work in the PC IT team (for the learning center and libraries), I don't know anyone who works in the IT department for the schools of journalism, design, or art college. I'm pretty sure there is one though, because I once saw I guy who spent 30 minutes fixing a printer in one of the iMac Labs. It was kind of like seeing Big Foot.

    Look, the iMac displays are generally among the highest rated consumer panels out on the market. The 21.5 and 27" inch displays out right now simply are the best you can buy without crossing into industry gear.

    Your school may have rotten luck, or may have a bunch of assholes purposefully wreaking havoc on the machines, or may just have an incompetent IT department... but as someone IN IT, and a CTO for a major firm in New York that has a 90% mac staff / 10% PC staff... the Macs are by far the more stable and reliable devices we use. I field more service tickets for that 10% than I do the 90% combined.

    syndalis on
    SW-4158-3990-6116
    Let's play Mario Kart or something...
  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    syndalis wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote: »
    syndalis wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote: »
    On the contrast, I can say pretty confidentially that four of every five iMac computers at my university has a serious problem with it, if we combine both serious problems with the displays and actual software issues. It might be potentially higher. And shipping them back to Apple to address any of these problems is out of the question (cutbacks), so they'll be like that until they are thrown away and replaced by other iMacs so the cycle can begin anew. This is actually happening as I speak....somewhere on campus, there's a iMac that isn't fucked up, and is waiting to delete someone's partition or corrupt some file on the way to the printer.

    You have a shitty IT department at your school.

    And we have computers with shitty displays that aren't easily replaced. An important part of the equation.

    I only know people who work in the PC IT team (for the learning center and libraries), I don't know anyone who works in the IT department for the schools of journalism, design, or art college. I'm pretty sure there is one though, because I once saw I guy who spent 30 minutes fixing a printer in one of the iMac Labs. It was kind of like seeing Big Foot.

    Look, the iMac displays are generally among the highest rated consumer panels out on the market. The 21.5 and 27" inch displays out right now simply are the best you can buy without crossing into industry gear.

    Your school may have rotten luck, or may have a bunch of assholes purposefully wreaking havoc on the machines, or may just have an incompetent IT department... but as someone IN IT, and a CTO for a major firm in New York that has a 90% mac staff / 10% PC staff... the Macs are by far the more stable and reliable devices we use. I field more service tickets for that 10% than I do the 90% combined.

    Yeah....no. Ignoring the lack of a "WHY?", it's still not the case. Given how long I've been working in those labs (I fucking got a BA in Journalism, and hating every minute of it, spent a lot of time staring at computer screens), yeah, I can tell you very confidently that there are no marauding groups of assholes punching computer screens to get their rocks off. I've never seen anyone purposefully vandalizing a iMac, nor have I ever heard of anyone deliberately vandalizing one. In almost six years. So we can rule that out. I'm guessing having security cameras in every room has something to do with that. On the other hand, I've seen people sitting at their workstations, turn on their machines, and raising their hand to announce that half the screen is flickering for some reason.

    So it's bad luck, or perhaps something else. But as someone who's surrounded by these machines, they just have a very bad record. It's not some conspiracy to destroy the reputation of Apple machines on college campuses. The machines (and all machines) just get a lot of use, and current circumstances make it much cheaper to buy new LCD displays for all machines (I've even seen iMacs plugged into Acer displays) than pay to replace them with the same brand. Those LCDs go bad too--but they get replaced quickly because, well, they're cheap. On one hand, you'd think at some point that would exceed the cost of repairing a iMac all-in-one's display. On the other hand, the University keeps doing it, and is known for getting wholesale discounts on crap that it's very fond of. Or maybe the failures are within the warranty. Who knows, maybe Apple actually hates the state of Georgia, and has made sure to give all public institutions there their lemon displays as a hilarious prank.

    I already explained that the schools are a harsh environment for computers, not out of malice, but because of a lot of use. The Grady College is one of the most famous (maybe the most) famous J-School in the region. A lot of people attend. As I've said before, I don't see what the big deal is. So there's a place in America where the iMacs suck, big deal, I wasn't aware people expected computers to be uniformly perfect anyway. I bet there are other places too, and plenty of places where the reverse is true. And as I've said before, I only bring this up because anecdotal evidence is the nature of anything dealing with the slogan "It just works".

    Synthesis on
    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS
    edited April 2010
    Agree with syndalis - Mac screens are by far superior to anything short of industry grade.

    Protein Shakes on
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Well, if my mom met the following criteria... I'd be in favor if waterboarding her.
  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    They could very well be. I am not someone who follows what counts as "industry grade". They still break from time to time though, so how many accolades they've received and how close they come to "industry grade" really doesn't matter that much to me, personally, when I use them. Emphasis on 'personally'.

    They're not, "Oh, this is a lovely display that is almost industry grade", they're "Oh, this thing is fucking flickering, now I need to move to another one and hope that doesn't start...".

    Synthesis on
    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Quid wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    Also that comparison doesn't quite seem apt. Microsoft didn't build those computers.

    If they had, that would make it even more of a lateral monopoly

    But... they didn't.

    which is why this type of excersize is called a hypothetical.

    Windows OS and iPhone OS have risen towards market dominance through different means. iPhone OS also has a far way to go before it has anything like Windows OS dominance in its particular market, HOWEVER, if it ever does reach that point, its single source software for consumers feature is going to be an issue. The comparison I was trying to build is think of the bevy of antitrust suits there would be if Windows OS was locked down to only accept programs purchased in a centralized webstore that was tightly controlled by MSoft.

    Evander on
  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Yes it would suck if they became a monopoly and then abused that power.

    It'd suck if they poured money in to cigarette lobbying groups too.

    Lots of hypothetical things it would suck for them to do.

    Quid on
  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Azio wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Jailbroken is the BIG difference there

    :arrow:

    when you "tested" these apps, you installed them through the app store?

    Evander on
  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Quid wrote: »
    Yes it would suck if they became a monopoly and then abused that power.

    It'd suck if they poured money in to cigarette lobbying groups too.

    Lots of hypothetical things it would suck for them to do.

    So, you are agreeing that if MSoft did what Apple is already doing, then it would suck?

    Evander on
  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    Yes it would suck if they became a monopoly and then abused that power.

    It'd suck if they poured money in to cigarette lobbying groups too.

    Lots of hypothetical things it would suck for them to do.

    So, you are agreeing that if MSoft did what Apple is already doing, then it would suck?

    Yes, if Microsoft hypothetically did that thing that you said Apple could do hypothetically, then it would suck. Hypothetically.

    cloudeagle on
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  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    Yes it would suck if they became a monopoly and then abused that power.

    It'd suck if they poured money in to cigarette lobbying groups too.

    Lots of hypothetical things it would suck for them to do.

    So, you are agreeing that if MSoft did what Apple is already doing, then it would suck?

    Yes, if Microsoft hypothetically did that thing that you said Apple could do hypothetically, then it would suck. Hypothetically.

    Apple is already doing it.

    Or do you disagree with my characterization of software availability on the iPhone?

    Evander on
  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    Yes it would suck if they became a monopoly and then abused that power.

    It'd suck if they poured money in to cigarette lobbying groups too.

    Lots of hypothetical things it would suck for them to do.

    So, you are agreeing that if MSoft did what Apple is already doing, then it would suck?

    Yes, if Microsoft hypothetically did that thing that you said Apple could do hypothetically, then it would suck. Hypothetically.

    Apple is already doing it.

    Or do you disagree with my characterization of software availability on the iPhone?

    I honestly have no idea what the argument is anymore beyond "Apple sucks."

    cloudeagle on
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  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    Yes it would suck if they became a monopoly and then abused that power.

    It'd suck if they poured money in to cigarette lobbying groups too.

    Lots of hypothetical things it would suck for them to do.

    So, you are agreeing that if MSoft did what Apple is already doing, then it would suck?

    Yes, if Microsoft hypothetically did that thing that you said Apple could do hypothetically, then it would suck. Hypothetically.

    Apple is already doing it.

    Or do you disagree with my characterization of software availability on the iPhone?

    I honestly have no idea what the argument is anymore beyond "Apple sucks."

    see, I never said "Apple sucks". you're reading in something that isn't there. I think apple overcharges, and I think that they keep draconian controls of their products, but I also think that they make quality stuff, just too locked down for my personal taste.



    My point has to do with the locked down centralized marketplace for iPhones, where any application installed on an iPhone must be expressly approved by Apple, and then Apple is the ONLY entity allowed to sell those applications, and only through one central store. My problem with it is that it eliminates a lot of competition, on a software level, which i see as detrimental to that particular market.

    Evander on
  • Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS
    edited April 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    My point has to do with the locked down centralized marketplace for iPhones, where any application installed on an iPhone must be expressly approved by Apple, and then Apple is the ONLY entity allowed to sell those applications, and only through one central store. My problem with it is that it eliminates a lot of competition, on a software level, which i see as detrimental to that particular market.

    Detrimental only in the sense that competition reduces prices and lack of competition in the way Apple distributes its software is anti-competitive.

    However, since most apps are either free or cost as little as 99 cents, this isn't a problem.

    We went over this already 10-15 pages ago didn't we.

    Protein Shakes on
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Well, if my mom met the following criteria... I'd be in favor if waterboarding her.
  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    My point has to do with the locked down centralized marketplace for iPhones, where any application installed on an iPhone must be expressly approved by Apple, and then Apple is the ONLY entity allowed to sell those applications, and only through one central store. My problem with it is that it eliminates a lot of competition, on a software level, which i see as detrimental to that particular market.

    Detrimental only in the sense that competition reduces prices and lack of competition in the way Apple distributes its software is anti-competitive.

    However, since most apps are either free or cost as little as 99 cents, this isn't a problem.

    We went over this already 10-15 pages ago didn't we.

    Not to mention the fact that every other smartphone platform charges the exact same prices for their app royalties/smartphones.

    cloudeagle on
    Switch: 3947-4890-9293
  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    My point has to do with the locked down centralized marketplace for iPhones, where any application installed on an iPhone must be expressly approved by Apple, and then Apple is the ONLY entity allowed to sell those applications, and only through one central store. My problem with it is that it eliminates a lot of competition, on a software level, which i see as detrimental to that particular market.

    Detrimental only in the sense that competition reduces prices and lack of competition in the way Apple distributes its software is anti-competitive.

    However, since most apps are either free or cost as little as 99 cents, this isn't a problem.

    We went over this already 10-15 pages ago didn't we.

    low prices could still get lower.

    and competition also encourages innovation. Hasn't apple specifically blocked software in the past because it performed a function that they wanted to have sole control over?

    Evander on
  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    My point has to do with the locked down centralized marketplace for iPhones, where any application installed on an iPhone must be expressly approved by Apple, and then Apple is the ONLY entity allowed to sell those applications, and only through one central store. My problem with it is that it eliminates a lot of competition, on a software level, which i see as detrimental to that particular market.

    Detrimental only in the sense that competition reduces prices and lack of competition in the way Apple distributes its software is anti-competitive.

    However, since most apps are either free or cost as little as 99 cents, this isn't a problem.

    We went over this already 10-15 pages ago didn't we.

    Not to mention the fact that every other smartphone platform charges the exact same prices for their app royalties/smartphones.

    Android allows you to install apps that come from outside sources. The last version of WinMo that I had (I want to say it was 6.1, I can't speak for 6.5) and all of the previous PocketPC itterations I've had still allowed this as well. Every PalmOS device I've ever had allowed this.

    The word is that WP7 is going to be set up like iPhone in this regard. If that is the case, then I'll take issue with the WP7 set-up as well.

    Evander on
  • Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS
    edited April 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    My point has to do with the locked down centralized marketplace for iPhones, where any application installed on an iPhone must be expressly approved by Apple, and then Apple is the ONLY entity allowed to sell those applications, and only through one central store. My problem with it is that it eliminates a lot of competition, on a software level, which i see as detrimental to that particular market.

    Detrimental only in the sense that competition reduces prices and lack of competition in the way Apple distributes its software is anti-competitive.

    However, since most apps are either free or cost as little as 99 cents, this isn't a problem.

    We went over this already 10-15 pages ago didn't we.

    low prices could still get lower.

    Yeah, they could. Do they have to though? Not really. The fact is, if you have the money to fork over 200-800 bucks for the device itself, you probably don't give a shit whether the apps are 99 cents or 79 cents or even 49 cents.

    Remember that their target audience does not consist of people who are so frugal/poor that they have to calculate cents.
    and competition also encourages innovation. Hasn't apple specifically blocked software in the past because it performed a function that they wanted to have sole control over?

    Which?

    Protein Shakes on
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Well, if my mom met the following criteria... I'd be in favor if waterboarding her.
  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    it's not abotu consumers actively counting cents deliberately, it is about the fact that cents DO make a difference. If apps were 33 cents, you'd buy more of them.



    And I want to say that it is tethering and VoIP stuff that Apple has blocked, based on feature, in the past. There may have been other stuff. Wasn't there some kind of controversy at some point involving browsers?

    Evander on
  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited April 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    My point has to do with the locked down centralized marketplace for iPhones, where any application installed on an iPhone must be expressly approved by Apple, and then Apple is the ONLY entity allowed to sell those applications, and only through one central store. My problem with it is that it eliminates a lot of competition, on a software level, which i see as detrimental to that particular market.

    Detrimental only in the sense that competition reduces prices and lack of competition in the way Apple distributes its software is anti-competitive.

    However, since most apps are either free or cost as little as 99 cents, this isn't a problem.

    We went over this already 10-15 pages ago didn't we.

    low prices could still get lower.

    Yeah, they could. Do they have to though? Not really. The fact is, if you have the money to fork over 200-800 bucks for the device itself, you probably don't give a shit whether the apps are 99 cents or 79 cents or even 49 cents.

    Remember that their target audience does not consist of people who are so frugal/poor that they have to calculate cents.
    and competition also encourages innovation. Hasn't apple specifically blocked software in the past because it performed a function that they wanted to have sole control over?

    Which?
    Well, they blocked IM apps that completely stole the Messaging interface; pretty sure they also blocked an iPad app that copied Exposé from mac OSX.

    People ASSUMED they blocked apps that apple wanted total control over, but the presence of Opera Mini, and a handful of other browser skins attest to the fallacy of that.

    Mostly, the stuff that gets blocked are things with blatant nudity, vulgarity (which is subjective and apple would do well to ease up on this category), and illegality (find a drug dealer apps, emulators, etc).

    syndalis on
    SW-4158-3990-6116
    Let's play Mario Kart or something...
  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited April 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    see, I never said "Apple sucks". you're reading in something that isn't there. I think apple overcharges, and I think that they keep draconian controls of their products, but I also think that they make quality stuff, just too locked down for my personal taste.

    My point has to do with the locked down centralized marketplace for iPhones, where any application installed on an iPhone must be expressly approved by Apple, and then Apple is the ONLY entity allowed to sell those applications, and only through one central store. My problem with it is that it eliminates a lot of competition, on a software level, which i see as detrimental to that particular market.

    This really requires for you to view a cellphone as a general "platform" like a PC. If you're relating it to any other consumer electronics device, your position is just nonsense. My Xbox does not allow for "open sourcing," nor does my PSP, nor does my DS, nor my DS, nor my shitty Palm cell phone, nor the fancy remote I bought for my home theater, my TV, my audio receiver, my Wii, my mixer (buying Kitchen-Aid certified attachments is expensive!), my microwave, etc etc etc

    And, frankly, if you have a broad expectation for your cellphone to be a tiny general-use PC, then the iPhone isn't for you in the first place.

    Irond Will on
    Wqdwp8l.png
  • Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS
    edited April 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    it's not abotu consumers actively counting cents deliberately, it is about the fact that cents DO make a difference. If apps were 33 cents, you'd buy more of them.

    If apps were that cheap that would hurt developer's bottom line and profitability.

    Now that would be a total "fuck you" to developers.

    Protein Shakes on
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Well, if my mom met the following criteria... I'd be in favor if waterboarding her.
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