I sent Blizzard an e-mail once about not being able to log in and a few hours later got an e-mail back saying that they do not deal with account issues via e-mail, for security purposes, and that I needed to call them and verify my information. It seems odd they would restore an account based on an e-mail alone. I am not saying what Spacemilk is saying is wrong, but it just seems a little light on the security to me.
Compared to EQ and DAoC, wow was probably on par with them in vanilla I'd think.
The only thing it really had going for it was "Warcraft" and it's been a 10+ year product at that point with a huge following. That momentum really caused WoW to succeed the way it has.
I never played DAoC, but to say WoW was "on par" with EQ is pretty damn ridiculous. WoW was miles ahead of anything EQ ever did, including the entire "fun to play" stat.
Honestly, I think too many people beat up on Vanilla WoW. Again, I think the game is significantly better than when it launched, but you also have to consider that the MMORPG genre was still a toddler at the time, and WoW completely reinvented the experience.
Compared to WoW, even at launch, current titles like AC, UO and EQ were total shit.
Congrats on having an opinion. I played EQ for years, and I've played WoW for years, and WoW has never been able to capture a lot of the magic of EQ. The gameplay improved in a lot of ways, as games do over time, but WoW never gave any of the same kinds of immersion or sense of exploration as early EQ. Blizzard was smart as hell because they basically made Diablo the MMO, and it's easier for people to get into, but just because you think launch WoW was so great doesn't make it so for everyone.
I played WoW at launch too, and while it was new and fun like all MMOs, it was not even close to a great game. It took them a long time to get there.
Compared to EQ and DAoC, wow was probably on par with them in vanilla I'd think.
The only thing it really had going for it was "Warcraft" and it's been a 10+ year product at that point with a huge following. That momentum really caused WoW to succeed the way it has.
I never played DAoC, but to say WoW was "on par" with EQ is pretty damn ridiculous. WoW was miles ahead of anything EQ ever did, including the entire "fun to play" stat.
Honestly, I think too many people beat up on Vanilla WoW. Again, I think the game is significantly better than when it launched, but you also have to consider that the MMORPG genre was still a toddler at the time, and WoW completely reinvented the experience.
Compared to WoW, even at launch, current titles like AC, UO and EQ were total shit.
I don't know, I remember a vastly different WoW than you do. It was pretty much "this is an MMO" and pretty true to the genre. Though most of my experience with WoW was through the beta phase. I don't remember it being too different at launch though. Didn't rez sickness last for an hour at launch?
WoW also had a really great immersion factor and graphic style that separated it. Most other games were just open wilderness and some caves and dungeons. WoW actually made me feel like I'm in Azeroth rather than playing a game. They did the things that mattered right, but they still had really bad ideas and mechanics.
Mainly because most of their crew was from (or liked) those horrible, horrible games.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Compared to EQ and DAoC, wow was probably on par with them in vanilla I'd think.
The only thing it really had going for it was "Warcraft" and it's been a 10+ year product at that point with a huge following. That momentum really caused WoW to succeed the way it has.
I never played DAoC, but to say WoW was "on par" with EQ is pretty damn ridiculous. WoW was miles ahead of anything EQ ever did, including the entire "fun to play" stat.
Honestly, I think too many people beat up on Vanilla WoW. Again, I think the game is significantly better than when it launched, but you also have to consider that the MMORPG genre was still a toddler at the time, and WoW completely reinvented the experience.
Compared to WoW, even at launch, current titles like AC, UO and EQ were total shit.
Congrats on having an opinion. I played EQ for years, and I've played WoW for years, and WoW has never been able to capture a lot of the magic of EQ. The gameplay improved in a lot of ways, as games do over time, but WoW never gave any of the same kinds of immersion or sense of exploration as early EQ. Blizzard was smart as hell because they basically made Diablo the MMO, and it's easier for people to get into, but just because you think launch WoW was so great doesn't make it so for everyone.
I played WoW at launch too, and while it was new and fun like all MMOs, it was not even close to a great game. It took them a long time to get there.
There are amazing levels or irony in this quote chain.
I have some really fond memories of Final Fantasy XI. They were enormously fun at the time but I don't think I could ever play such a game again. I love a challenge but I really don't like something something.
Fixed. Kinda.
I'm currently on a WoW break but I have to say that yes, Blizzard did lots of things right when they launched WoW. It was a surprise for me when the "only" thing that happened when I die was a loss of durability and a rez sickness that lasted 10 mins.
If anything, I hope that with Cataclysm and Archeology, Blizzard finds another venue for character progression. I just don't think I can ride that threadmill again. Get gear, kill boss, get new gear, kill new boss. I just hope they find some new ways to progress your character beyond titles or mounts.
Well, I have to say DAoC did ambiance really well. The sounds of the rain, crickets, frogs, were really just spectacular. Even WoW to this day doesn't do it right.
I remember the first time it rained when I first played DAoC. I thought to myself "holy shit I can barely see, I better go in the inn over there and wait this out."
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Well, I have to say DAoC did ambiance really well. The sounds of the rain, crickets, frogs, were really just spectacular. Even WoW to this day doesn't do it right.
I remember the first time it rained when I first played DAoC. I thought to myself "holy shit I can barely see, I better go in the inn over there and wait this out."
The rainstorms in Zul'Gurub are like that. I really wish they had made those effects show elsewhere. Heck, I wish the weather effects were more than like once per month. I did see a thunderstorm in Thunder Bluff once, and considering the name of the place, wondered why it wasn't a more frequent occurrence.
Well, I have to say DAoC did ambiance really well. The sounds of the rain, crickets, frogs, were really just spectacular. Even WoW to this day doesn't do it right.
I remember the first time it rained when I first played DAoC. I thought to myself "holy shit I can barely see, I better go in the inn over there and wait this out."
Here's the thing. The weather on Azeroth/Kalimdor it's awesome. Hell, when it rains on Elwynn Forest it's quite a sight. But Northrend and Outland have no weather at all!
EDIT: Well no remarkable weather effects. To think there was a patch dedicated to weather effects back in Vanilla!
Congrats on having an opinion. I played EQ for years, and I've played WoW for years, and WoW has never been able to capture a lot of the magic of EQ. The gameplay improved in a lot of ways, as games do over time, but WoW never gave any of the same kinds of immersion or sense of exploration as early EQ. Blizzard was smart as hell because they basically made Diablo the MMO, and it's easier for people to get into, but just because you think launch WoW was so great doesn't make it so for everyone.
I played WoW at launch too, and while it was new and fun like all MMOs, it was not even close to a great game. It took them a long time to get there.
Congrats on your opinion, too.
Some people liked the punishing, kick you in the teeth style of EQ, I'll admit that. However, for the vast majority of players, WoW nailed the sweet spot of just flat out being more fun.
And I'll challenge you on the exploration bit. What made exploration so different in EQ than in WoW? Was it the fact that you could go off in one zone, and within a few minutes be completely surrounded by enemies that vastly out leveled you, could kill you in a matter of seconds, leaving you with an extremely long corpse run to get your equipment back, as well as an experience penalty that may have just eliminated hours, if not days of work?
The weather patch for wow just made me :? because it just felt tacked on and not thought out.
I don't even think I notice the rain if I'm in an area when it happens. Though, in DAoC it's hard not to notice your field of visibility drop to like 3 feet.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Yeah. Weather is cool. But it's not common and widespread enough. :-/
Northrend barely has any weather at all. It feels like most places with snow, it can't even snow at all!
I never noticed any weather effects until I turned my settings up to ultra. Since then, I've seen some pretty heavy snows twice in Dragonblight, and once in Storm Peaks. That was pretty much it.
Zul'Gurub's rain is not like everywhere else's rain, though. It's very limiting in its visibility.
I don't even think I notice the rain if I'm in an area when it happens. Though, in DAoC it's hard not to notice your field of visibility drop to like 3 feet.
Or maybe it rains less than you think?
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
I don't even think I notice the rain if I'm in an area when it happens. Though, in DAoC it's hard not to notice your field of visibility drop to like 3 feet.
Or maybe it rains less than you think?
You're right, I might confuse once a week with twice a week.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Some people liked the punishing, kick you in the teeth style of EQ, I'll admit that. However, for the vast majority of players, WoW nailed the sweet spot of just flat out being more fun.
And I'll challenge you on the exploration bit. What made exploration so different in EQ than in WoW? Was it the fact that you could go off in one zone, and within a few minutes be completely surrounded by enemies that vastly out leveled you, could kill you in a matter of seconds, leaving you with an extremely long corpse run to get your equipment back, as well as an experience penalty that may have just eliminated hours, if not days of work?
If this is the "magic" that WoW was missing?
This isn't fair at all, I think everyone is happy with WoW not having as punishing a gameplay or as much grinding (or we'd be playing FFXI or Aion or something instead).
He makes a very valid point about immersion. Lack of weather and then half-assed weather is one of them. The day/night cycle is another that always bothered me. Remember in beta when they were debating the 24 hour in game clock? The developer reasoning was basically "Eh I kind of like it, you can tell your real time by mousing over the in-game clock". Um what? Leave that clock set to real time, I don't care, but have the sun move faster through the damn sky.
In Everquest the 72 minute in game "day" meant you would see the sun rise and set a few times on any long playsession, or at least once on any given login. You could have nocturnal creatures and sources of light were cool, sure by the endgame everyone had a source of nightvision and their magic items glowed innately but carrying a lantern as a newbie was interesting.
Carrying rations that you automatically ate as time went by, higher level food lasting ridiculously long. It's basically sacrificing an inventory slot for some immersion like a shaman totem or mining pick. Oh or item weight in general. Certain things like grey vendor trash swords and armor could actually quickly encumber you, and weight reducing (as well as increasing in slot number) bags were a cool high end feature.
Hell even having to figure out which direction (N, S, E, W) you're facing via any of the numerous methods was immersive.
It's all little stuff, oh I need to have some Iron Rations, a Compass and maybe that item that gives my Low-Light vision in my bags next to my mining pick, enchanting rod, skinning knife, hearthstone? But it adds up to that "magic".
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited April 2010
You're saying that it would be more immersive if the sun set every 20 minutes?
Also, carrying worthless nicknacks for immersion's sake was, is and always will be shit awful.
Immersive in the fact taht you actually get to experience different atmospheres. I'd think a 4-6 hour day would be fine. 20 minutes is kind of annoying.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
No I think Azeroth should be a perfect replica of Earth /rolleyes.
The idea that times passed more quickly in-game than it actually does is already inherent to the game (NPC routines, mob spawning, etc.), they just got lazy and literally just removed day/night (the sun or the moon being in the case doesn't even make it lighter or darker) and gave us a nominal Earth one.
Edit: He pulled 20 minutes out of his ass, EQ had a 72 minute day and I think EQ2's is longer but I never played it. Anything that lets an average play session last a "day" or two would be really cool. Or at least, it's awesome in past MMORPGs and every single player RPG I've played that had it.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited April 2010
Why would it be annoying? You get to experience more different "atmospheres". Hell, let's make the day cycle 2 minutes long, 1 for day, 1 for night. That'll be super immersive.
Why would it be annoying? You get to experience more different "atmospheres". Hell, let's make the day cycle 2 minutes long, 1 for day, 1 for night. That'll be super immersive.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
Immersion doesn't need to be realistic in it's depiction. But that is far from immersion. It needs to be balanced to achieve it's goal.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I seriously don't get the argument against a decent day/night lol. Let's use Morrowind or Oblivion as an example, more people have played that than Everquest right?
NPCs going to sleep, certain kind of monsters coming out at night, that was really cool and realistic, yes?
You can't have that with a 24 hour clock because the guy who plays from 8 pm - 11 pm every night is completely fucked regarding any content that happens "in game" from 6 am to 7 am. Make the clock faster and you can.
Realism matters to a certain extent, but with a 24 hour day or 6 hour day you won't really tell the difference unless you're playing for that long of a time period.
I think you could go down to about a 2 hour day before things start getting silly, although I'm not sure.
I seriously don't get the argument against a decent day/night lol. Let's use Morrowind or Oblivion as an example, more people have played that than Everquest right?
NPCs going to sleep, certain kind of monsters coming out at night, that was really cool and realistic, yes?
You can't have that with a 24 hour clock because the guy who plays from 8 pm - 11 pm every night is completely fucked regarding any content that happens "in game" from 6 am to 7 am. Make the clock faster and you can.
Hm. Yeah. Skipping time in Oblivion really makes it work.
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
It's all little stuff, oh I need to have some Iron Rations, a Compass and maybe that item that gives my Low-Light vision in my bags next to my mining pick, enchanting rod, skinning knife, hearthstone? But it adds up to that "magic".
Having to carry food and water so you don't starve while stumbling around a forest in the dark is one type of immersion. But is it the fun type? If your idea of simulating a camping trip gone to hell is fun, then sure.
I would argue WoW, from the start was actually much more immersion via its "revolutionary" questing system. Since my first character was human, I'll use that as an example. The game starts out flying towards your characters point of view, giving you enough details to set the stage for your character. Your very first quest lines start out investigating the appearance of kobolds at the mines, and the rise of these thugs, the Defias Brotherhood. The quest line guides you along, and you discover more bits and pieces about the Brotherhood, eventually leading you to Westfall, a broken land, fighting an open war agains Van Cleef and his thugs. The starting experience culminates with your first dungeon, leading you through the Deadmines to ultimately face down Van Cleef on top of his Juggernaut, destined to attack Stormwind.
This is what I call immersion. EQ had very, very little of that. You had very few obvious story elements to hook players in. People didn't even "run" dungeons in EQ. You sat in one spot, camped out and waited for the puller to bring the monsters to you. There was very little, if any over-arching story to anything, and hardly any elements connected to each other.
I seriously don't get the argument against a decent day/night lol. Let's use Morrowind or Oblivion as an example, more people have played that than Everquest right?
NPCs going to sleep, certain kind of monsters coming out at night, that was really cool and realistic, yes?
You can't have that with a 24 hour clock because the guy who plays from 8 pm - 11 pm every night is completely fucked regarding any content that happens "in game" from 6 am to 7 am. Make the clock faster and you can.
The problem with a mechanic like that is that you have to balance this across all time zones where the game is played in. It also assumes that people can play any time they want and are not restricted by work, family, other responsabilities. It's a balance act that outside of single player games most developers probably don't want to get involved in.
Azeroth makes no sense.
Mountains come out of no where.
Every single edge of every single continent is a deep sea trench.
Climate shifts are instantaneous without transition zones.
Plants grow across every single continent.
Mineral veins pop out of the ground.
It's all little stuff, oh I need to have some Iron Rations, a Compass and maybe that item that gives my Low-Light vision in my bags next to my mining pick, enchanting rod, skinning knife, hearthstone? But it adds up to that "magic".
Having to carry food and water so you don't starve while stumbling around a forest in the dark is one type of immersion. But is it the fun type? If your idea of simulating a camping trip gone to hell is fun, then sure.
I would argue WoW, from the start was actually much more immersion via its "revolutionary" questing system. Since my first character was human, I'll use that as an example. The game starts out flying towards your characters point of view, giving you enough details to set the stage for your character. Your very first quest lines start out investigating the appearance of kobolds at the mines, and the rise of these thugs, the Defias Brotherhood. The quest line guides you along, and you discover more bits and pieces about the Brotherhood, eventually leading you to Westfall, a broken land, fighting an open war agains Van Cleef and his thugs. The starting experience culminates with your first dungeon, leading you through the Deadmines to ultimately face down Van Cleef on top of his Juggernaut, destined to attack Stormwind.
This is what I call immersion. EQ had very, very little of that. You had very few obvious story elements to hook players in. People didn't even "run" dungeons in EQ. You sat in one spot, camped out and waited for the puller to bring the monsters to you. There was very little, if any over-arching story to anything, and hardly any elements connected to each other.
To be fair though, the whole Dead Mines quest line and instance is kind of a gleeming example of what WoW can do. It's sad that very few other quests and instances follows it's lead. I still remember my first Dead Mines run. I left that place with the biggest grin on my face. The Smite encounter was just the greatest thing.
I definitely agree that forcing actual dungeon crawling rather than dungeon camping was a great move on WoW's part, questing obviously hugely improved although I think EQ had decent story elements in its quests (just terrible and few actual questing mechanics). Starting my human wizard in Freeport and learning about the open hostility between the Freeport Militia and the Paladins of the Temple of Marr was great. Having my choice of religion (Mithaniel Marr) actually drop my initial faction standing with the Militia was also cool. But you're right that killing kobolds, tackling the defias was handled in a far, far superior quest structure than "we're threatened by these orcs, thin their ranks and bring me their belts as proof" over and over.
And look we can take the minimalist argument to an extreme. Having to actually carry loot and take it back to a vendor isn't fun either, right? Why don't we just have the text "You loot a [Grey Sword] worth 2g 43s" appear in the log and I get the coin straight up? Or reagents. Why not make the spell just take 20 silver to cast instead of 3 arcane dust?
When building a living world the little touches count for a lot. You may think it's annoying to have to go back to a vendor to buy rations once a week and waste an inventory slot on them. It's also annoying to buy reagents once a week and waste inventory slots on them. But I'd argue that their presence is beneficial to the game, going to that NPC vendor helps build a world rather than just a game.
Dead Mines is in a league of it's own. Some of it may have been that the whole instance thing was a semi-fresh idea and it was new to all WoW players. Instances now are just another part of the game. Players are jaded now so it all seems a little diminished. I am trying think of a post vanilla instance that gave me that same "woah" feeling when I finished it. Sadly, I can't.
When building a living world the little touches count for a lot. You may think it's annoying to have to go back to a vendor to buy rations once a week and waste an inventory slot on them. It's also annoying to buy reagents once a week and waste inventory slots on them. But I'd argue that their presence is beneficial to the game, going to that NPC vendor helps build a world rather than just a game.
Dalaran actually improved things a bit in this regard. There's some small stuff you might never notice except by accident, such as the gnome that walks around turning on the magical lamps.
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
And look we can take the minimalist argument to an extreme. Having to actually carry loot and take it back to a vendor isn't fun either, right? Why don't we just have the text "You loot a [Grey Sword] worth 2g 43s" appear in the log and I get the coin straight up? Or reagents. Why not make the spell just take 20 silver to cast instead of 3 arcane dust?
Having mobs drop just money instead of vendor trash and removing reagents from certain spells would definitely be an improvement. Not making spells cost straight up money, though. That would be silly. What kind of goose would even think up a system like that? Quite some goose.
And look we can take the minimalist argument to an extreme. Having to actually carry loot and take it back to a vendor isn't fun either, right? Why don't we just have the text "You loot a [Grey Sword] worth 2g 43s" appear in the log and I get the coin straight up? Or reagents. Why not make the spell just take 20 silver to cast instead of 3 arcane dust?
Having mobs drop just money instead of vendor trash and removing reagents from certain spells would definitely be an improvement. Not making spells cost straight up money, though. That would be silly. What kind of goose would even think up a system like that? Quite some goose.
I think he is arguing that without the immersion factor of NEEDING reagents, that's basically what it would amount to.
Dead Mines is in a league of it's own. Some of it may have been that the whole instance thing was a semi-fresh idea and it was new to all WoW players. Instances now are just another part of the game. Players are jaded now so it all seems a little diminished. I am trying think of a post vanilla instance that gave me that same "woah" feeling when I finished it. Sadly, I can't.
I agree with this 100%. Having played WoW in Vanilla, and then coming back in WotLK, I just never felt the same "Wow" feelings as I did with a lot of the original dungeons.
That's a big reason why I'm looking forward to Cataclysm. Right now, WoW is quite stale, and literally needs something to shake things up.
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Congrats on having an opinion. I played EQ for years, and I've played WoW for years, and WoW has never been able to capture a lot of the magic of EQ. The gameplay improved in a lot of ways, as games do over time, but WoW never gave any of the same kinds of immersion or sense of exploration as early EQ. Blizzard was smart as hell because they basically made Diablo the MMO, and it's easier for people to get into, but just because you think launch WoW was so great doesn't make it so for everyone.
I played WoW at launch too, and while it was new and fun like all MMOs, it was not even close to a great game. It took them a long time to get there.
I don't know, I remember a vastly different WoW than you do. It was pretty much "this is an MMO" and pretty true to the genre. Though most of my experience with WoW was through the beta phase. I don't remember it being too different at launch though. Didn't rez sickness last for an hour at launch?
WoW also had a really great immersion factor and graphic style that separated it. Most other games were just open wilderness and some caves and dungeons. WoW actually made me feel like I'm in Azeroth rather than playing a game. They did the things that mattered right, but they still had really bad ideas and mechanics.
Mainly because most of their crew was from (or liked) those horrible, horrible games.
There are amazing levels or irony in this quote chain.
Fixed. Kinda.
I'm currently on a WoW break but I have to say that yes, Blizzard did lots of things right when they launched WoW. It was a surprise for me when the "only" thing that happened when I die was a loss of durability and a rez sickness that lasted 10 mins.
If anything, I hope that with Cataclysm and Archeology, Blizzard finds another venue for character progression. I just don't think I can ride that threadmill again. Get gear, kill boss, get new gear, kill new boss. I just hope they find some new ways to progress your character beyond titles or mounts.
I remember the first time it rained when I first played DAoC. I thought to myself "holy shit I can barely see, I better go in the inn over there and wait this out."
The rainstorms in Zul'Gurub are like that. I really wish they had made those effects show elsewhere. Heck, I wish the weather effects were more than like once per month. I did see a thunderstorm in Thunder Bluff once, and considering the name of the place, wondered why it wasn't a more frequent occurrence.
Here's the thing. The weather on Azeroth/Kalimdor it's awesome. Hell, when it rains on Elwynn Forest it's quite a sight. But Northrend and Outland have no weather at all!
EDIT: Well no remarkable weather effects. To think there was a patch dedicated to weather effects back in Vanilla!
Northrend barely has any weather at all. It feels like most places with snow, it can't even snow at all!
Congrats on your opinion, too.
Some people liked the punishing, kick you in the teeth style of EQ, I'll admit that. However, for the vast majority of players, WoW nailed the sweet spot of just flat out being more fun.
And I'll challenge you on the exploration bit. What made exploration so different in EQ than in WoW? Was it the fact that you could go off in one zone, and within a few minutes be completely surrounded by enemies that vastly out leveled you, could kill you in a matter of seconds, leaving you with an extremely long corpse run to get your equipment back, as well as an experience penalty that may have just eliminated hours, if not days of work?
If this is the "magic" that WoW was missing?
I don't even think I notice the rain if I'm in an area when it happens. Though, in DAoC it's hard not to notice your field of visibility drop to like 3 feet.
I never noticed any weather effects until I turned my settings up to ultra. Since then, I've seen some pretty heavy snows twice in Dragonblight, and once in Storm Peaks. That was pretty much it.
Zul'Gurub's rain is not like everywhere else's rain, though. It's very limiting in its visibility.
Or maybe it rains less than you think?
http://www.wowwiki.com/Weather
You're right, I might confuse once a week with twice a week.
And if you don't think you notice if it rains, how do you know it rained?
This isn't fair at all, I think everyone is happy with WoW not having as punishing a gameplay or as much grinding (or we'd be playing FFXI or Aion or something instead).
He makes a very valid point about immersion. Lack of weather and then half-assed weather is one of them. The day/night cycle is another that always bothered me. Remember in beta when they were debating the 24 hour in game clock? The developer reasoning was basically "Eh I kind of like it, you can tell your real time by mousing over the in-game clock". Um what? Leave that clock set to real time, I don't care, but have the sun move faster through the damn sky.
In Everquest the 72 minute in game "day" meant you would see the sun rise and set a few times on any long playsession, or at least once on any given login. You could have nocturnal creatures and sources of light were cool, sure by the endgame everyone had a source of nightvision and their magic items glowed innately but carrying a lantern as a newbie was interesting.
Carrying rations that you automatically ate as time went by, higher level food lasting ridiculously long. It's basically sacrificing an inventory slot for some immersion like a shaman totem or mining pick. Oh or item weight in general. Certain things like grey vendor trash swords and armor could actually quickly encumber you, and weight reducing (as well as increasing in slot number) bags were a cool high end feature.
Hell even having to figure out which direction (N, S, E, W) you're facing via any of the numerous methods was immersive.
It's all little stuff, oh I need to have some Iron Rations, a Compass and maybe that item that gives my Low-Light vision in my bags next to my mining pick, enchanting rod, skinning knife, hearthstone? But it adds up to that "magic".
Also, carrying worthless nicknacks for immersion's sake was, is and always will be shit awful.
The idea that times passed more quickly in-game than it actually does is already inherent to the game (NPC routines, mob spawning, etc.), they just got lazy and literally just removed day/night (the sun or the moon being in the case doesn't even make it lighter or darker) and gave us a nominal Earth one.
Edit: He pulled 20 minutes out of his ass, EQ had a 72 minute day and I think EQ2's is longer but I never played it. Anything that lets an average play session last a "day" or two would be really cool. Or at least, it's awesome in past MMORPGs and every single player RPG I've played that had it.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
Immersion doesn't need to be realistic in it's depiction. But that is far from immersion. It needs to be balanced to achieve it's goal.
NPCs going to sleep, certain kind of monsters coming out at night, that was really cool and realistic, yes?
You can't have that with a 24 hour clock because the guy who plays from 8 pm - 11 pm every night is completely fucked regarding any content that happens "in game" from 6 am to 7 am. Make the clock faster and you can.
I think you could go down to about a 2 hour day before things start getting silly, although I'm not sure.
Edit:
Hm. Yeah. Skipping time in Oblivion really makes it work.
Having to carry food and water so you don't starve while stumbling around a forest in the dark is one type of immersion. But is it the fun type? If your idea of simulating a camping trip gone to hell is fun, then sure.
I would argue WoW, from the start was actually much more immersion via its "revolutionary" questing system. Since my first character was human, I'll use that as an example. The game starts out flying towards your characters point of view, giving you enough details to set the stage for your character. Your very first quest lines start out investigating the appearance of kobolds at the mines, and the rise of these thugs, the Defias Brotherhood. The quest line guides you along, and you discover more bits and pieces about the Brotherhood, eventually leading you to Westfall, a broken land, fighting an open war agains Van Cleef and his thugs. The starting experience culminates with your first dungeon, leading you through the Deadmines to ultimately face down Van Cleef on top of his Juggernaut, destined to attack Stormwind.
This is what I call immersion. EQ had very, very little of that. You had very few obvious story elements to hook players in. People didn't even "run" dungeons in EQ. You sat in one spot, camped out and waited for the puller to bring the monsters to you. There was very little, if any over-arching story to anything, and hardly any elements connected to each other.
The problem with a mechanic like that is that you have to balance this across all time zones where the game is played in. It also assumes that people can play any time they want and are not restricted by work, family, other responsabilities. It's a balance act that outside of single player games most developers probably don't want to get involved in.
Mountains come out of no where.
Every single edge of every single continent is a deep sea trench.
Climate shifts are instantaneous without transition zones.
Plants grow across every single continent.
Mineral veins pop out of the ground.
And you want immersion?
To be fair though, the whole Dead Mines quest line and instance is kind of a gleeming example of what WoW can do. It's sad that very few other quests and instances follows it's lead. I still remember my first Dead Mines run. I left that place with the biggest grin on my face. The Smite encounter was just the greatest thing.
God it was so cool, omg blow the door down? WITH THAT CANNON? WHERE IS THE POWDER!
And look we can take the minimalist argument to an extreme. Having to actually carry loot and take it back to a vendor isn't fun either, right? Why don't we just have the text "You loot a [Grey Sword] worth 2g 43s" appear in the log and I get the coin straight up? Or reagents. Why not make the spell just take 20 silver to cast instead of 3 arcane dust?
When building a living world the little touches count for a lot. You may think it's annoying to have to go back to a vendor to buy rations once a week and waste an inventory slot on them. It's also annoying to buy reagents once a week and waste inventory slots on them. But I'd argue that their presence is beneficial to the game, going to that NPC vendor helps build a world rather than just a game.
Dalaran actually improved things a bit in this regard. There's some small stuff you might never notice except by accident, such as the gnome that walks around turning on the magical lamps.
Having mobs drop just money instead of vendor trash and removing reagents from certain spells would definitely be an improvement. Not making spells cost straight up money, though. That would be silly. What kind of goose would even think up a system like that? Quite some goose.
I hate dungeouns that are just Okay, kill EVERYTHING!
Strat was cool, Occulus was cool, DM was cool, ST was cool, etc.
I think he is arguing that without the immersion factor of NEEDING reagents, that's basically what it would amount to.
I agree with this 100%. Having played WoW in Vanilla, and then coming back in WotLK, I just never felt the same "Wow" feelings as I did with a lot of the original dungeons.
That's a big reason why I'm looking forward to Cataclysm. Right now, WoW is quite stale, and literally needs something to shake things up.