Eh, I get annoyed when people are below 2k dps in any heroic really. You can hit that as a fresh 80 on most classes. I was doing over 1500 dps in tier 5 content at 70.
Now that said I don't criticize people unless they're being huge douchebags on top of being bad, and I certainly don't use their bad dps as a justification for taking gear from people's main specs.
Edit: Unless people are doing under 1k dps. Then they get the "are you just autoattacking or what" question.
Eh, I get annoyed when people are below 2k dps in any heroic really. You can hit that as a fresh 80 on most classes. I was doing over 1500 dps in tier 5 content at 70.
Now that said I don't criticize people unless they're being huge douchebags on top of being bad, and I certainly don't use their bad dps as a justification for taking gear from people's main specs.
Edit: Unless people are doing under 1k dps. Then they get the "are you just autoattacking or what" question.
What classes can do 2k dps as a fresh 80? I don't think any of my characters could push over 1.5k until they had got a bit of heroic-level equipment. Below 1k is definitely unacceptable, but on the other hand expecting 2k..?
If there's a mainspec (or possible offspec) that can roll on the same piece as me, I typically just wait until he chooses need or greed before I make my decision. In that way, I don't step on toes and I still get to gear myself up without any llama drama disagreements before the group has dived in proper. We all get to run the instance, and we all get to gear up appropriately as long as we're reasonable.
What pisses me off is this:
Tank DK is in heirloom gear in Nexus. Cool blue BoE tanking chest plate drops. I peek at his gear and see that he has something much better so I roll need. He then rolls need and proceeds to keep his old gear equipped. I ask him if I can have it. He doesn't say anything for the entire instance and neither do the rest of the PuGs because, honestly, it doesn't affect them.. why piss off Mr. Tank just to sit around and wait for another 1/2 hour?
Fuck you, guy. Mostly fuck you, tanks.
This begs the question: Are we getting a karma/rating/reputation system so that we can weed out assholes from other servers? Before cross-server cooperation was introduced, if you ninja'd something then the server would know and you'd be SoL for finding groups. We don't get this anymore. We need something, imo.
This.
Nothing irks me more than seeing an upgrade for my offspec get sharded.
People these days are even rolling DE on blue BoE gear that could be sold, traded, or gifted to someone who is just coming up.
I'm an enchanter who wants to disable the fucking disenchant option for everyone else. I'm happy to de your stuff for you, but I'm sick of people abusing my tradeskill to shard things mindlessly.
Eh, I get annoyed when people are below 2k dps in any heroic really. You can hit that as a fresh 80 on most classes. I was doing over 1500 dps in tier 5 content at 70.
Now that said I don't criticize people unless they're being huge douchebags on top of being bad, and I certainly don't use their bad dps as a justification for taking gear from people's main specs.
Edit: Unless people are doing under 1k dps. Then they get the "are you just autoattacking or what" question.
What classes can do 2k dps as a fresh 80? I don't think any of my characters could push over 1.5k until they had got a bit of heroic-level equipment. Below 1k is definitely unacceptable, but on the other hand expecting 2k..?
Classes/specs with bombastic AoE. Locks, Mages, Hunters and Boomkins mostly. Other classes and specs have good AoE, but those are the easiest to deliver good AoE results with.
edit: Ret Paladins also have ridiculously easy AoE now that I think about it.
I always figured that the people who go all "I was able to do 3k DPS as fresh 80" probably had quite a lot of raiding experience (read: optimizing DPS) with that character and then when someone levels up a new character without that kind of experience they get bent out of shape how people didn't learn to optimize their DPS while leveling.
Eh, I get annoyed when people are below 2k dps in any heroic really. You can hit that as a fresh 80 on most classes. I was doing over 1500 dps in tier 5 content at 70.
Now that said I don't criticize people unless they're being huge douchebags on top of being bad, and I certainly don't use their bad dps as a justification for taking gear from people's main specs.
Edit: Unless people are doing under 1k dps. Then they get the "are you just autoattacking or what" question.
What classes can do 2k dps as a fresh 80? I don't think any of my characters could push over 1.5k until they had got a bit of heroic-level equipment. Below 1k is definitely unacceptable, but on the other hand expecting 2k..?
My DK, elemental shaman, mage, and hunter all hit 2k dps as fresh 80s pretty easily.
I always figured that the people who go all "I was able to do 3k DPS as fresh 80" probably had quite a lot of raiding experience (read: optimizing DPS) with that character
That might be my issue. I've been playing this game for a very long time, I know what classes are capable of (and how to find out if I don't), and I expect people to go find the best way to play their class. Maybe that's asking too much.
The disenchant option was always a stupid one in my opinion. The mechanics behind it are retarded and I hope it goes away.
Not much you can do about the Ninja assholes though. Especially the whole "don't mess with the tank." Fortunately you can piss off a tank and get a new one in a short amount of time with the random dungeon changes.
Honestly, the problem with expecting everybody to bust 2k DPS as a brand new 80 is that that is what somebody who raided a lot at 60 or 70, really understands the game well, or is just dinging a new alt to 80 and understands the ins and outs of that character. Many of the people who play WoW are just getting their first character to 80, and they don't even really start to learn how to do things right until they get 80 and somebody offers them help or they use trial and error to figure out how to do things.
These are the people who don't learn rotations from websites, and read stuff like this forum. I am a guy with little patience for people who underperform, but I always tried to show some patience with anybody who had a good attitude and appeared to be trying.
The disenchant option was always a stupid one in my opinion. The mechanics behind it are retarded and I hope it goes away.
Not much you can do about the Ninja assholes though. Especially the whole "don't mess with the tank." Fortunately you can piss off a tank and get a new one in a short amount of time with the random dungeon changes.
I could understand complaints with the DE button only if there was a reasonable expectation that, after winning a greed roll, the average pugger would give you an item you wanted for your offspec if you asked for it.
If you want something for your offspec, ask if you can need on it. If you need roll, it doesn't compete with DE rolls. The only time the system fails is when you want a lower armor class item and people roll to DE it, but Blizzard's been pretty clear they're trying to discourage people from doing that anyway.
Kevin CristI make the devil hit his kneesand say the 'our father'Registered Userregular
edited April 2010
My problem with the disenchant option is that it's on the same tier as Greed. While Need roll beats a DE roll, greeding can lose to DE. Which adds to players needing on things they don't have to.
My problem with the disenchant option is that it's on the same tier as Greed. While Need roll beats a DE roll, greeding can lose to DE. Which adds to players needing on things they don't have to.
But you can still roll greed, though. If you win, the item isn't disenchanted. The only time the item would be DE'd if you yourself roll greed would be if you lose the roll anyway, in which case you're still not getting the item. Not because the other guy chose to opt for disenchant, but because you lost the actual roll for the item.
I think the real problem is people pussyfoot around clicking 'need' way too much. If you can put use to an item from an equipment standpoint, just roll need. That's kind of what the button is built for. Greed is for vendoring/moneymaking purposes, same as disenchant. They should be on the same tier. Putting greed on a higher level of loot priority would create many more problems than it would solve.
I've also found that when I greed items I lose to the DE way more than 1/5 of the time. It wasn't until I started clicking DE myself that I started to aquire some shards from all the heroics I've been running. Could be bad luck, but it's a hell of a coincidence.
It also pains me to see people DE an item when it sells for 15-20g and the shards are down to 4.50 on my server
I've also found that when I greed items I lose to the DE way more than 1/5 of the time. It wasn't until I started clicking DE myself that I started to aquire some shards from all the heroics I've been running. Could be bad luck, but it's a hell of a coincidence.
It also pains me to see people DE an item when it sells for 15-20g and the shards are down to 4.50 on my server
Oh yeah, that too. Adding the disenchant button finally dropped the absolutely fucktarded price of enchanting mats. Not that I didn't love spending a thousand gold for a single enchant.
I've also found that when I greed items I lose to the DE way more than 1/5 of the time. It wasn't until I started clicking DE myself that I started to aquire some shards from all the heroics I've been running. Could be bad luck, but it's a hell of a coincidence.
It also pains me to see people DE an item when it sells for 15-20g and the shards are down to 4.50 on my server
Oh yeah, that too. Adding the disenchant button finally dropped the absolutely fucktarded price of enchanting mats. Not that I didn't love spending a thousand gold for a single enchant.
I still make 700 gold a day selling a single scroll of Blade Ward.
Less if I buy the mats, but I try to farm them, and avoid flooding the AH too. Also, I laugh at people trying to buy the enchant in trade for mats + tip.
Late to the conversation, but I'm one of those Gear Score assholes who checks score and achievements before running PUG raids into VoA or ICC.
However, I have zero problem carrying fresh level 80's who are undergeared and underperforming through heroic content. As long as we're making forward progress, it's fine.
There's very little reason for anyone who's geared to raid ICC to roll need on anything in a heroic, even an offspec. If your raiding top tier content, then you should've done enough runs through Ulduar/ToC/ICC to fill in some gaps on the offspec, as well as have enough badges left over to grab some Tier 9 stuff.
Anyone who's rolling on something in a heroic, versus a guy in questing/leveling blues/greens needs to check their ego at the door.
Late to the conversation, but I'm one of those Gear Score assholes who checks score and achievements before running PUG raids into VoA or ICC.
However, I have zero problem carrying fresh level 80's who are undergeared and underperforming through heroic content. As long as we're making forward progress, it's fine.
There's very little reason for anyone who's geared to raid ICC to roll need on anything in a heroic, even an offspec. If your raiding top tier content, then you should've done enough runs through Ulduar/ToC/ICC to fill in some gaps on the offspec, as well as have enough badges left over to grab some Tier 9 stuff.
Anyone who's rolling on something in a heroic, versus a guy in questing/leveling blues/greens needs to check their ego at the door.
I have stopped raiding, and there's still upgrades for me in the ICC heroics, particularly for my off spec. But yeah, losing need rolls to people who don't actually need the stuff sucks. Surgeon's Needle, why can't you be mine?
All this talk about "acceptable" and "unacceptable" DPS is what makes me scared every single time I hit the random button on my hunter. She's been 80 for a few weeks, but it was only a few days ago when I finally got enough gear that the system would let me into heroics. Aside from a BoE leather belt from Ulduar, the gun for 25 champion tokens from the tournament, and now T9 gloves, everything else is quest blues.
I ran Recount for one run through Drak'tharon. DPS was at 1500 for the first few pulls, but then the tank pulled the entire room before the first boss, and it skyrocketed to 3500 simply because of Volley. But, I don't think that counts, does it? That seems like obvious padding, it only went that high because of a giant AE pack. By the end of the run, the number settled at about 2300 or so.
Of course, the twist ending of that story is, after everybody had cleared out and I was vendoring my junk... I realize I was equipped with 1dps pellets I was using the night before to test some shot rotations because I didn't want to waste the epic bullets... :oops: So maybe it should have been way higher.
But either way, I'd like to think I know what I'm doing. I looked up a few stuff on survival playing and found out the proper way to manage shots for the best dps. I'm just worried that every group I get into, there's always going to be filled with pissy elitist players who bitch that I'm not doing 5k. It's like the whole heroic system is becoming giant catch-22. Gotta do heroics to get epics for better dps, but you can't do heroics until you're geared out in epics for better dps.
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I kind of appreciate these pre-expansion lulls in content, as they give me time to play all those games I was ignoring due to WoW like Dragon Age and Fallout 3.
I kind of appreciate these pre-expansion lulls in content, as they give me time to play all those games I was ignoring due to WoW like Dragon Age and Fallout 3.
This is the up side, I've spent all afternoon playing L4D2 (LTTP) and it's pretty awesome.
I kind of appreciate these pre-expansion lulls in content, as they give me time to play all those games I was ignoring due to WoW like Dragon Age and Fallout 3.
Same, I just finished up God of War and started on my old Final Fantasy games.
I have never voted to kick anyone for crappy dps, only crappy attitude.
In other news, I queue my cat durid for FoS every day, hunting that damn scorpion. The only time it's dropped it went to the tank. It is the item that put me over the edge on the "screw it, I'm needing offspec" debate. I crave more penetration!
I have never voted to kick anyone for crappy dps, only crappy attitude.
In other news, I queue my cat durid for FoS every day, hunting that damn scorpion. The only time it's dropped it went to the tank. It is the item that put me over the edge on the "screw it, I'm needing offspec" debate. I crave more penetration!
:winky:
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
I have never voted to kick anyone for crappy dps, only crappy attitude.
In other news, I queue my cat durid for FoS every day, hunting that damn scorpion. The only time it's dropped it went to the tank. It is the item that put me over the edge on the "screw it, I'm needing offspec" debate. I crave more penetration!
I've never voted to kick DPS. I have, however, voted to kick healers before. Most notably a 32k mana holy pally who couldn't keep a 60k hp warrior alive (in the beginning of OK) and a resto shaman who kept letting himself die on Garfrost.
I have never voted to kick anyone for crappy dps, only crappy attitude.
In other news, I queue my cat durid for FoS every day, hunting that damn scorpion. The only time it's dropped it went to the tank. It is the item that put me over the edge on the "screw it, I'm needing offspec" debate. I crave more penetration!
I like groups where everyone isn't facerolling the place. It gives me a chance to actually heal. I also like groups where everyone is facerolling, because then I get to mess around trying to dps, zone out, and just generally be that healer that everyone hates.
If there's a mainspec (or possible offspec) that can roll on the same piece as me, I typically just wait until he chooses need or greed before I make my decision. In that way, I don't step on toes and I still get to gear myself up without any llama drama disagreements before the group has dived in proper. We all get to run the instance, and we all get to gear up appropriately as long as we're reasonable.
What pisses me off is this:
Tank DK is in heirloom gear in Nexus. Cool blue BoE tanking chest plate drops. I peek at his gear and see that he has something much better so I roll need. He then rolls need and proceeds to keep his old gear equipped. I ask him if I can have it. He doesn't say anything for the entire instance and neither do the rest of the PuGs because, honestly, it doesn't affect them.. why piss off Mr. Tank just to sit around and wait for another 1/2 hour?
Fuck you, guy. Mostly fuck you, tanks.
This begs the question: Are we getting a karma/rating/reputation system so that we can weed out assholes from other servers? Before cross-server cooperation was introduced, if you ninja'd something then the server would know and you'd be SoL for finding groups. We don't get this anymore. We need something, imo.
This.
Nothing irks me more than seeing an upgrade for my offspec get sharded.
People these days are even rolling DE on blue BoE gear that could be sold, traded, or gifted to someone who is just coming up.
I'm an enchanter who wants to disable the fucking disenchant option for everyone else. I'm happy to de your stuff for you, but I'm sick of people abusing my tradeskill to shard things mindlessly.
Yeah, that's definitely a change I don't care for.
In addition to the issue you mentioned, it used to be that pretty much any heroic guaranteed everyone getting a shard, since you'd hold all the un-needed blues and DE at the end. Now, since everyone just rolls on it, it's a matter of luck.
If there's a mainspec (or possible offspec) that can roll on the same piece as me, I typically just wait until he chooses need or greed before I make my decision. In that way, I don't step on toes and I still get to gear myself up without any llama drama disagreements before the group has dived in proper. We all get to run the instance, and we all get to gear up appropriately as long as we're reasonable.
What pisses me off is this:
Tank DK is in heirloom gear in Nexus. Cool blue BoE tanking chest plate drops. I peek at his gear and see that he has something much better so I roll need. He then rolls need and proceeds to keep his old gear equipped. I ask him if I can have it. He doesn't say anything for the entire instance and neither do the rest of the PuGs because, honestly, it doesn't affect them.. why piss off Mr. Tank just to sit around and wait for another 1/2 hour?
Fuck you, guy. Mostly fuck you, tanks.
This begs the question: Are we getting a karma/rating/reputation system so that we can weed out assholes from other servers? Before cross-server cooperation was introduced, if you ninja'd something then the server would know and you'd be SoL for finding groups. We don't get this anymore. We need something, imo.
This.
Nothing irks me more than seeing an upgrade for my offspec get sharded.
People these days are even rolling DE on blue BoE gear that could be sold, traded, or gifted to someone who is just coming up.
I'm an enchanter who wants to disable the fucking disenchant option for everyone else. I'm happy to de your stuff for you, but I'm sick of people abusing my tradeskill to shard things mindlessly.
Yeah, that's definitely a change I don't care for.
In addition to the issue you mentioned, it used to be that pretty much any heroic guaranteed everyone getting a shard, since you'd hold all the un-needed blues and DE at the end. Now, since everyone just rolls on it, it's a matter of luck.
Yeap. Fun times when a brand new 80 wins 2/3 blue shards and then needs the purple item at the end.
Yeap. Fun times when a brand new 80 wins 2/3 blue shards and then needs the purple item at the end.
How dare those fucking brand new 80s win shards? This is an outrage!
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jackalFuck Yes. That is an orderly anal warehouse.Registered Userregular
edited April 2010
Who cares if someone shards a BOE blue that would have probably just sat in a guild bank or be a pain in the ass to sell. I personally can't move that stuff without more trouble than it is worth.
I just vendor dungeon blues, boe or not. They rarely sell on the AH since toc and icc 5 mans came out and the shard price is less than the item cost most of the time. Same with greens now too given dust prices on our server.
I just think it's kind of funny that people get so indignant about what happens to items they lose the roll on. If you don't need it for your character, what difference does it make whether they shard it, AH it, or give it to an alt? If you do need it on your character, why don't you need roll? If it's an offspec need, just ask the group if they mind if you roll on it.
Aside from (and I mentioned this before) cases where you can't roll need due to armor class, it just seems like a silly thing to complain about.
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Well yeah, but if someone is in 187 blues then they won't even have a chance to get those as their random.
ToC and ICC heroics are, obviously, tuned higher. I would imagine Echo was talking about regular heroics.
Now that said I don't criticize people unless they're being huge douchebags on top of being bad, and I certainly don't use their bad dps as a justification for taking gear from people's main specs.
Edit: Unless people are doing under 1k dps. Then they get the "are you just autoattacking or what" question.
What classes can do 2k dps as a fresh 80? I don't think any of my characters could push over 1.5k until they had got a bit of heroic-level equipment. Below 1k is definitely unacceptable, but on the other hand expecting 2k..?
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This.
Nothing irks me more than seeing an upgrade for my offspec get sharded.
People these days are even rolling DE on blue BoE gear that could be sold, traded, or gifted to someone who is just coming up.
I'm an enchanter who wants to disable the fucking disenchant option for everyone else. I'm happy to de your stuff for you, but I'm sick of people abusing my tradeskill to shard things mindlessly.
Classes/specs with bombastic AoE. Locks, Mages, Hunters and Boomkins mostly. Other classes and specs have good AoE, but those are the easiest to deliver good AoE results with.
edit: Ret Paladins also have ridiculously easy AoE now that I think about it.
I always figured that the people who go all "I was able to do 3k DPS as fresh 80" probably had quite a lot of raiding experience (read: optimizing DPS) with that character and then when someone levels up a new character without that kind of experience they get bent out of shape how people didn't learn to optimize their DPS while leveling.
My DK, elemental shaman, mage, and hunter all hit 2k dps as fresh 80s pretty easily.
That might be my issue. I've been playing this game for a very long time, I know what classes are capable of (and how to find out if I don't), and I expect people to go find the best way to play their class. Maybe that's asking too much.
Not much you can do about the Ninja assholes though. Especially the whole "don't mess with the tank." Fortunately you can piss off a tank and get a new one in a short amount of time with the random dungeon changes.
So fuck them.
These are the people who don't learn rotations from websites, and read stuff like this forum. I am a guy with little patience for people who underperform, but I always tried to show some patience with anybody who had a good attitude and appeared to be trying.
What's wrong with the disenchant button?
If you want something for your offspec, ask if you can need on it. If you need roll, it doesn't compete with DE rolls. The only time the system fails is when you want a lower armor class item and people roll to DE it, but Blizzard's been pretty clear they're trying to discourage people from doing that anyway.
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I did it on my rogue, but that was with HfB at 18%.
But you can still roll greed, though. If you win, the item isn't disenchanted. The only time the item would be DE'd if you yourself roll greed would be if you lose the roll anyway, in which case you're still not getting the item. Not because the other guy chose to opt for disenchant, but because you lost the actual roll for the item.
I think the real problem is people pussyfoot around clicking 'need' way too much. If you can put use to an item from an equipment standpoint, just roll need. That's kind of what the button is built for. Greed is for vendoring/moneymaking purposes, same as disenchant. They should be on the same tier. Putting greed on a higher level of loot priority would create many more problems than it would solve.
It also pains me to see people DE an item when it sells for 15-20g and the shards are down to 4.50 on my server
Oh yeah, that too. Adding the disenchant button finally dropped the absolutely fucktarded price of enchanting mats. Not that I didn't love spending a thousand gold for a single enchant.
I still make 700 gold a day selling a single scroll of Blade Ward.
Less if I buy the mats, but I try to farm them, and avoid flooding the AH too. Also, I laugh at people trying to buy the enchant in trade for mats + tip.
Fuck those people.
However, I have zero problem carrying fresh level 80's who are undergeared and underperforming through heroic content. As long as we're making forward progress, it's fine.
There's very little reason for anyone who's geared to raid ICC to roll need on anything in a heroic, even an offspec. If your raiding top tier content, then you should've done enough runs through Ulduar/ToC/ICC to fill in some gaps on the offspec, as well as have enough badges left over to grab some Tier 9 stuff.
Anyone who's rolling on something in a heroic, versus a guy in questing/leveling blues/greens needs to check their ego at the door.
I have stopped raiding, and there's still upgrades for me in the ICC heroics, particularly for my off spec. But yeah, losing need rolls to people who don't actually need the stuff sucks. Surgeon's Needle, why can't you be mine?
Fixt for every melee DPS in my guild.
I've never even seen the thing drop. I'm not convinced it exists at this point.
I ran Recount for one run through Drak'tharon. DPS was at 1500 for the first few pulls, but then the tank pulled the entire room before the first boss, and it skyrocketed to 3500 simply because of Volley. But, I don't think that counts, does it? That seems like obvious padding, it only went that high because of a giant AE pack. By the end of the run, the number settled at about 2300 or so.
Of course, the twist ending of that story is, after everybody had cleared out and I was vendoring my junk... I realize I was equipped with 1dps pellets I was using the night before to test some shot rotations because I didn't want to waste the epic bullets... :oops: So maybe it should have been way higher.
But either way, I'd like to think I know what I'm doing. I looked up a few stuff on survival playing and found out the proper way to manage shots for the best dps. I'm just worried that every group I get into, there's always going to be filled with pissy elitist players who bitch that I'm not doing 5k. It's like the whole heroic system is becoming giant catch-22. Gotta do heroics to get epics for better dps, but you can't do heroics until you're geared out in epics for better dps.
Same, I just finished up God of War and started on my old Final Fantasy games.
In other news, I queue my cat durid for FoS every day, hunting that damn scorpion. The only time it's dropped it went to the tank. It is the item that put me over the edge on the "screw it, I'm needing offspec" debate. I crave more penetration!
I've never voted to kick DPS. I have, however, voted to kick healers before. Most notably a 32k mana holy pally who couldn't keep a 60k hp warrior alive (in the beginning of OK) and a resto shaman who kept letting himself die on Garfrost.
I like groups where everyone isn't facerolling the place. It gives me a chance to actually heal. I also like groups where everyone is facerolling, because then I get to mess around trying to dps, zone out, and just generally be that healer that everyone hates.
Yeah, that's definitely a change I don't care for.
In addition to the issue you mentioned, it used to be that pretty much any heroic guaranteed everyone getting a shard, since you'd hold all the un-needed blues and DE at the end. Now, since everyone just rolls on it, it's a matter of luck.
Yeap. Fun times when a brand new 80 wins 2/3 blue shards and then needs the purple item at the end.
How dare those fucking brand new 80s win shards? This is an outrage!
Aside from (and I mentioned this before) cases where you can't roll need due to armor class, it just seems like a silly thing to complain about.
Win almost all the shards, and then need the epic.
Yes, I'm just a fucking grinch for not loving that.
Yeah, they totally should have passed on every other drop just in case something they needed dropped at the end. Assholes.
It's dream shards, who gives a shit.