Club PA 2.0 has arrived! If you'd like to access some extra PA content and help support the forums, check it out at patreon.com/ClubPA
The image size limit has been raised to 1mb! Anything larger than that should be linked to. This is a HARD limit, please do not abuse it.
Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

Deceptive Business Practices -- What's Your Take?

2456

Posts

  • amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Slider wrote: »
    I like this topic and, yes, I agree that a business being purposefully deceitful should be grounds for disciplinary or legal action.

    I have an example, it's not shady, but more like a mental f**k up.

    Whenever I go to order a delicious sub sandwich from my favorite restaurant, I always have them remove the onions and tomatoes, but tell them to add mustard (which is free) and olives. Now, you'd think that I could simply replace the onions and tomatoes with mustard and olives for no extra cost, seeing as how the cost should even out, or even be somewhat less than the original cost of the sandwich.

    Well, instead of removing the cost of the ingredients I didn't want, they charge me the full price of the sandwich and then add the price of including a separate ingredient, like, olives. I've gotten to the point where I don't even have them add anything to my sandwich, because they'll tack on these extra fees.

    Next time I'm in there, I'll probably mention this to them.

    Was this Quizno's? Cause last time I was there the dude told me that four olives on my sandwich would be a .40 cent charge and I said "that seems a little excessive" to which he replied "it is what it is" and I stopped doing business there.

    amateurhour on

    Arch wrote: »

    I never expected this burn from captain bushmeat
  • amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Also, I think it was Doc that was talking about advertising mail in rebates. I don't have a problem with that as long as:

    1) They clearly, even if it's in fine print, show the actual price you pay in store

    2) They take SOME responsibility if the company doing the mail in rebates balks.

    When I was working for Major Office Supply Store #1 a few years back there was a big issue where one of the major Canada based mail in rebate companies basically "lost" all of their money and weren't honoring the rebates being sent in, and the store wasn't doing anything to remedy the situation, even though they were associated business partners in the transaction. I had to deal with a never ending amount of shit from customers for that.

    Not to derail this into a customer bitching thread, but customers can be a pain in the ass about rebates, and computers in general. Customers tend to think that if they buy a computer from a place, then that place is responsible for all antivirus, firewall, spyware, spam, and hardware support for that machine forever. We'd get people all the time that would come to our "tech support station" and want us to look at the machine, but didn't want to pay for the service (which was admittedly horribly overpriced)

    amateurhour on

    Arch wrote: »

    I never expected this burn from captain bushmeat
  • DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2010
    I've had bad experiences with mail-in rebates. Like half of them just never show up, and it's up to you to track down the status website or whatever six weeks later after you've already mailed in all your documentation.

    The whole thing is based upon making it the biggest pain in the ass possible to get the discount.

    Doc on
  • ResIpsaLoquiturResIpsaLoquitur Not a grammar nazi, just alt-write. Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Muncie wrote: »
    I've worked contracts for shady small businesses for most of my "career." I'm a freelancer of sorts so I always like to keep my hook out for anything more lucrative and more permanent, so I've had a lot of short run-ins with quite a few of these places.

    I worked for a place for about 5 months that called itself an advertising agency for the Caribbean. I took the (shitty, low paying) contract because I was in a bind. It was doing maintenance on about eleven different websites they ran.

    The main website and revenue earner was an "online phone book" running an open source php script. None of my work was related to this site (despite me being the only developer) so it wasn't for a few months before I figured out where any of their income came from. I was pretty sequestered away from the rest of the business.

    Here's how it worked. In the office was between 7 and 15 callers (weekly turnover rate of about 50%). These people spent their whole day going through actual Caribbean phone book listings and cold calling businesses. "Hi I'm with the yellow pages and we're expanding our listings for the internet!" These people could be pretty abrasive and rude, but it's how the place was run. They would then selectively record an agreement. This agreement was that the company didn't have to pay now, and the service was sold as so many dollars per month.

    Some of the talking points was:
    "Hilton [or some other big known company] advertises with us."
    In fact, the database was seeded with all kinds of big companies that would never waste their money on that shit.

    "We get over 500,000 unique visitors a month, we are ranked on Alexa!"
    When I actually got curious and set up some tracking that number was actually closer to 100 unique visitors per month. I'm not sure how he got the Alexa ranking. I think that can be bought. At any rate all the computers in the office were running Alexa toolbar.

    "We're endorsed by <Ex-Big Name Boxer>."
    This was actually true. Apparently you can get someone who used to be famous very cheaply to endorse your crap.


    A day later the order would go to a collector, who would call up friendly-like and ask for the yearly fee right now, which was some astronomical amount relative to services rendered. The person, would in almost all cases, balk. The collectors would get more vicious, threaten legal action, call several times a day.

    After a week it would go to "Legal Collections." Someone would call the person and say, "I'm with Dodo, Dogsled, and Burkowitz" and would try to cut the person a deal to prevent a lawsuit. They would play the very selective recording from the first caller to show them the "evidence."

    For the customers who actually did pay the first time, a year later, they would be charged again. The collectors would even, at the instruction of the office manager, forge signatures or cut and paste signatures from old faxes and run cards through.

    After maybe three or four years of running this kind of scam, through several business names, it finally closed. The owner was some kind of cartoon character, I've got lots of stories about him and how he ran the place. Despite all that, I have to give him some credit: his company committed wire fraud, blatantly scammed thousands of people, dodged fair labor laws, and sexually harassed his female employees for several years and never got fined a penny, never spent a night in jail, and as far as I can tell, never got hit with a lawsuit.

    And not once did you consider going to the authorities with this information?

    Trust me, if this were in Canada, the Competition Bureau offers whistleblower protection to people who come forward to expose fraudulent companies like the one you just described.

    About fully half of the calls I get a day are from small business who have been targetted by crooks like this dude, who harrass secretaries and scare the shit out of them for their crooked "Directory Services".

    I just wish people realized that just because someone says you owe them money doesn't make it true. Scammers harrassing you? DON'T FUCKING TALK TO THEM! Hang up! Call the cops if the calls become actual harassement. Check with the credit bureau if you want to make sure your credit is safe. There is nothing these scammers can do to you if you don't pay!

    That's not necessarily true.

    My sister's boss got hit with one of those scammers by fax. "Yellow Page" was the company (notice the lack of the "s" at the end), and it used an upside-down version of the yellow pages's walking fingers symbol.

    It wanted to put the company listing online, and had a place to fill out all that info, as well as a place to sign and date.

    Here's how she got taken: she skipped the small print. It was legible, even after it was faxed a second time to me, the terms were pretty understandable with almost no legalese, and was boxed in ABOVE the signature line.

    It was dumb of her not to read the fine print, but they know a certain percentage of people will (just as with mail in rebates) fail to do the follow-through and just sign at the bottom.

    Here's the other way she got taken: It would cost her more to hire an attorney to defend her in court than to just pay the amount they're asking, or for her to travel to where they'd file so she doesn't get found in default. IAAL, and I run into this with potential clients all the time: even when there's a legitimate dispute of how much is owed, we're often talking numbers small enough that paying me would be more than paying the bill outright.

    ResIpsaLoquitur on
    League of Legends: MichaelDominick; Blizzard(NA): MichaelD#11402; Steam ID: MichaelDominick
    PwH4Ipj.jpg
  • RandomEngyRandomEngy Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Doc wrote: »
    RandomEngy wrote: »
    Hate 'em. I have actually yelled in a movie theater when Comcast ran an ad featuring a "stupid" FIOS customer and a Comcast customer smugly talking about how he has a "fiber optic" network as well.

    Comcast has billboards and ads all over the greater Seattle area talking about how "Verizon FiOS is leaving", and "Comcast XFinity is here to stay."

    Thanks for advertising that I'm stuck with them, like it or not.

    But I live in the greater Seattle area. Why would FiOS leave me? It loves me. Doesn't it?

    RandomEngy on
    Profile -> Signature Settings -> Hide signatures always. Then you don't have to read this worthless text anymore.
  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I'm against companies blatantly lying about the service or product they are selling.

    Deception though? Asking you if you want mild or strong when you ask for a medium size coffee isn't deception. It's the difference between the size of the cup, and its content.

    To my mind they are certainly going out of their way to mask the fact that they're asking if you want a cost extra.

    Having said that I wouldn't be too concerned about the practice unless they get stroppy if you question it when they ask for more money than you were anticipating.

    japan on
  • TomantaTomanta Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Doc wrote: »
    I've had bad experiences with mail-in rebates. Like half of them just never show up, and it's up to you to track down the status website or whatever six weeks later after you've already mailed in all your documentation.

    The whole thing is based upon making it the biggest pain in the ass possible to get the discount.

    They bank on you buying the product and not sending in the rebate. I guess the shadier ones also prefer not to send you the rebate either but I've never had that problem.

    Tomanta on
  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Muncie wrote: »
    I've worked contracts for shady small businesses for most of my "career." I'm a freelancer of sorts so I always like to keep my hook out for anything more lucrative and more permanent, so I've had a lot of short run-ins with quite a few of these places.

    I worked for a place for about 5 months that called itself an advertising agency for the Caribbean. I took the (shitty, low paying) contract because I was in a bind. It was doing maintenance on about eleven different websites they ran.

    The main website and revenue earner was an "online phone book" running an open source php script. None of my work was related to this site (despite me being the only developer) so it wasn't for a few months before I figured out where any of their income came from. I was pretty sequestered away from the rest of the business.

    Here's how it worked. In the office was between 7 and 15 callers (weekly turnover rate of about 50%). These people spent their whole day going through actual Caribbean phone book listings and cold calling businesses. "Hi I'm with the yellow pages and we're expanding our listings for the internet!" These people could be pretty abrasive and rude, but it's how the place was run. They would then selectively record an agreement. This agreement was that the company didn't have to pay now, and the service was sold as so many dollars per month.

    Some of the talking points was:
    "Hilton [or some other big known company] advertises with us."
    In fact, the database was seeded with all kinds of big companies that would never waste their money on that shit.

    "We get over 500,000 unique visitors a month, we are ranked on Alexa!"
    When I actually got curious and set up some tracking that number was actually closer to 100 unique visitors per month. I'm not sure how he got the Alexa ranking. I think that can be bought. At any rate all the computers in the office were running Alexa toolbar.

    "We're endorsed by <Ex-Big Name Boxer>."
    This was actually true. Apparently you can get someone who used to be famous very cheaply to endorse your crap.


    A day later the order would go to a collector, who would call up friendly-like and ask for the yearly fee right now, which was some astronomical amount relative to services rendered. The person, would in almost all cases, balk. The collectors would get more vicious, threaten legal action, call several times a day.

    After a week it would go to "Legal Collections." Someone would call the person and say, "I'm with Dodo, Dogsled, and Burkowitz" and would try to cut the person a deal to prevent a lawsuit. They would play the very selective recording from the first caller to show them the "evidence."

    For the customers who actually did pay the first time, a year later, they would be charged again. The collectors would even, at the instruction of the office manager, forge signatures or cut and paste signatures from old faxes and run cards through.

    After maybe three or four years of running this kind of scam, through several business names, it finally closed. The owner was some kind of cartoon character, I've got lots of stories about him and how he ran the place. Despite all that, I have to give him some credit: his company committed wire fraud, blatantly scammed thousands of people, dodged fair labor laws, and sexually harassed his female employees for several years and never got fined a penny, never spent a night in jail, and as far as I can tell, never got hit with a lawsuit.

    This kind of scam is pretty common - best one I ever saw was a business directory service that drew up contracts that looked like Change of Address forms - but if you looked closely they had actually drawn up a pretty standard contract for business services - for about 200 euro a year. They would then get very heavy on the people who signed up. Then every year or two they would change country of residence and start again, usually after losing a few court cases. So far as I know they still are at it.

    Kalkino on
    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • RUNN1NGMANRUNN1NGMAN Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Cognisseur wrote: »
    RUNN1NGMAN wrote: »
    End wrote: »
    What? And if you ask for the smallest box, it's not her fault if she gets you a 5 foot by 5 foot box instead of a 6 inch by 6 inch box?

    Or you could pick out your own box instead of asking someone else to and then getting huffy when what they bring you isn't what you wanted.

    Just to clarify, at most post offices I've been to recently, they don't really let you pick it out yourself.

    No, it's worse than that actually.
    1. You can pick out certain things. Priority mail envelopes. Overnight mail envelopes.
    2. Naturally, none of those have any prices on them.
    3. Also, the big signs above the windows advertising all the things the Post Office can do for you? It just so happens they forgot to include any prices there either. Or make any mention of Media Mail existing.

    No, the Post Office near me is the sleaziest attempt to scam people out of their money I've ever seen. It's obnoxious, and it's so clear they can only get away with it due to their monopoly.

    Those envelopes don't have prices because they are FREE.

    RUNN1NGMAN on
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus premium Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Cognisseur wrote: »
    RUNN1NGMAN wrote: »
    End wrote: »
    What? And if you ask for the smallest box, it's not her fault if she gets you a 5 foot by 5 foot box instead of a 6 inch by 6 inch box?

    Or you could pick out your own box instead of asking someone else to and then getting huffy when what they bring you isn't what you wanted.

    Just to clarify, at most post offices I've been to recently, they don't really let you pick it out yourself.

    No, it's worse than that actually.
    1. You can pick out certain things. Priority mail envelopes. Overnight mail envelopes.
    2. Naturally, none of those have any prices on them.
    3. Also, the big signs above the windows advertising all the things the Post Office can do for you? It just so happens they forgot to include any prices there either. Or make any mention of Media Mail existing.

    No, the Post Office near me is the sleaziest attempt to scam people out of their money I've ever seen. It's obnoxious, and it's so clear they can only get away with it due to their monopoly.

    If the Post Office is a monopoly, how come they're losing so much money to all the for-profit shippers like UPS and FedEx?

    DarkPrimus on
    dt3GeqU.png
    Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
  • SliderSlider Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I like my Post Office. For a fixed price, I can stuff everything I can fit inside this particular envelope, rather than being charged based on how much it weighs.

    Slider on
  • RUNN1NGMANRUNN1NGMAN Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I get so sick of people ragging on the Postal Service like it's some horrible thing foisted upon you that you have to put up with. For less than the cost of a pack of gum I can put a letter in my door, and 3-4 days later its been delivered anywhere in the continental US. That's fucking AMAZING. If that's a scam, please sign me up for the lifetime service plan with Simonizing.

    RUNN1NGMAN on
  • Romantic UndeadRomantic Undead Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    And not once did you consider going to the authorities with this information?

    Trust me, if this were in Canada, the Competition Bureau offers whistleblower protection to people who come forward to expose fraudulent companies like the one you just described.

    About fully half of the calls I get a day are from small business who have been targetted by crooks like this dude, who harrass secretaries and scare the shit out of them for their crooked "Directory Services".

    I just wish people realized that just because someone says you owe them money doesn't make it true. Scammers harrassing you? DON'T FUCKING TALK TO THEM! Hang up! Call the cops if the calls become actual harassement. Check with the credit bureau if you want to make sure your credit is safe. There is nothing these scammers can do to you if you don't pay!

    That's not necessarily true.

    My sister's boss got hit with one of those scammers by fax. "Yellow Page" was the company (notice the lack of the "s" at the end), and it used an upside-down version of the yellow pages's walking fingers symbol.

    It wanted to put the company listing online, and had a place to fill out all that info, as well as a place to sign and date.

    Here's how she got taken: she skipped the small print. It was legible, even after it was faxed a second time to me, the terms were pretty understandable with almost no legalese, and was boxed in ABOVE the signature line.

    It was dumb of her not to read the fine print, but they know a certain percentage of people will (just as with mail in rebates) fail to do the follow-through and just sign at the bottom.

    Here's the other way she got taken: It would cost her more to hire an attorney to defend her in court than to just pay the amount they're asking, or for her to travel to where they'd file so she doesn't get found in default. IAAL, and I run into this with potential clients all the time: even when there's a legitimate dispute of how much is owed, we're often talking numbers small enough that paying me would be more than paying the bill outright.

    You do not need legal representation to take a matter to small claims court, just time. Furthermore, you can simply decline payment. If you choose the latter route, make sure to call the credit bureau to inform them that you have been targeted by a fraudulent business and would like to ensure your credit is protected. The Bureau will put a "Fraud Watch" on your account.

    If the scammer starts calling your place of business inform them ONCE that you believe you were intentionally misled into signing, you refuse the service, will not be paying and consider the matter closed and they are not to call again regarding this matter. Then, hang up. If they call again, you inform them that this matter is closed and that any further calls to this effect will be treated as harrasement and appropriate action will be taken.

    Note that court costs apply to companies too, and no company is going to take you to court over a couple hundred dollars. They worst they will do is try and affect your credit, but if your credit company is forewarned, you might be protected on that front.

    Note that I am a public servant, not a lawyer. This is not legal advice.

    Romantic Undead on
    3DS FC: 1547-5210-6531
  • CognisseurCognisseur Registered User
    edited April 2010
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Cognisseur wrote: »
    RUNN1NGMAN wrote: »
    End wrote: »
    What? And if you ask for the smallest box, it's not her fault if she gets you a 5 foot by 5 foot box instead of a 6 inch by 6 inch box?

    Or you could pick out your own box instead of asking someone else to and then getting huffy when what they bring you isn't what you wanted.

    Just to clarify, at most post offices I've been to recently, they don't really let you pick it out yourself.

    No, it's worse than that actually.
    1. You can pick out certain things. Priority mail envelopes. Overnight mail envelopes.
    2. Naturally, none of those have any prices on them.
    3. Also, the big signs above the windows advertising all the things the Post Office can do for you? It just so happens they forgot to include any prices there either. Or make any mention of Media Mail existing.

    No, the Post Office near me is the sleaziest attempt to scam people out of their money I've ever seen. It's obnoxious, and it's so clear they can only get away with it due to their monopoly.

    If the Post Office is a monopoly, how come they're losing so much money to all the for-profit shippers like UPS and FedEx?

    Well them losing money is probably based on a host of factors, but i bet it doesn't help that, since they're such huge dicks, I go out of my way to find a Fedex or UPS that treats me with some civility anytime I have a box package that needs sending.

    Cognisseur on
  • DelzhandDelzhand Hard to miss. Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    RUNN1NGMAN wrote: »
    I get so sick of people ragging on the Postal Service like it's some horrible thing foisted upon you that you have to put up with. For less than the cost of a pack of gum I can put a letter in my door, and 3-4 days later its been delivered anywhere in the continental US. That's fucking AMAZING. If that's a scam, please sign me up for the lifetime service plan with Simonizing.

    I think a lot of people shit on the PO because it's government run.

    Delzhand on
    Steam|FFXIV|Switch SW-3472-4893-0802
  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    And not once did you consider going to the authorities with this information?

    Trust me, if this were in Canada, the Competition Bureau offers whistleblower protection to people who come forward to expose fraudulent companies like the one you just described.

    About fully half of the calls I get a day are from small business who have been targetted by crooks like this dude, who harrass secretaries and scare the shit out of them for their crooked "Directory Services".

    I just wish people realized that just because someone says you owe them money doesn't make it true. Scammers harrassing you? DON'T FUCKING TALK TO THEM! Hang up! Call the cops if the calls become actual harassement. Check with the credit bureau if you want to make sure your credit is safe. There is nothing these scammers can do to you if you don't pay!

    That's not necessarily true.

    My sister's boss got hit with one of those scammers by fax. "Yellow Page" was the company (notice the lack of the "s" at the end), and it used an upside-down version of the yellow pages's walking fingers symbol.

    It wanted to put the company listing online, and had a place to fill out all that info, as well as a place to sign and date.

    Here's how she got taken: she skipped the small print. It was legible, even after it was faxed a second time to me, the terms were pretty understandable with almost no legalese, and was boxed in ABOVE the signature line.

    It was dumb of her not to read the fine print, but they know a certain percentage of people will (just as with mail in rebates) fail to do the follow-through and just sign at the bottom.

    Here's the other way she got taken: It would cost her more to hire an attorney to defend her in court than to just pay the amount they're asking, or for her to travel to where they'd file so she doesn't get found in default. IAAL, and I run into this with potential clients all the time: even when there's a legitimate dispute of how much is owed, we're often talking numbers small enough that paying me would be more than paying the bill outright.

    You do not need legal representation to take a matter to small claims court, just time. Furthermore, you can simply decline payment. If you choose the latter route, make sure to call the credit bureau to inform them that you have been targeted by a fraudulent business and would like to ensure your credit is protected. The Bureau will put a "Fraud Watch" on your account.

    If the scammer starts calling your place of business inform them ONCE that you believe you were intentionally misled into signing, you refuse the service, will not be paying and consider the matter closed and they are not to call again regarding this matter. Then, hang up. If they call again, you inform them that this matter is closed and that any further calls to this effect will be treated as harrasement and appropriate action will be taken.

    Note that court costs apply to companies too, and no company is going to take you to court over a couple hundred dollars. They worst they will do is try and affect your credit, but if your credit company is forewarned, you might be protected on that front.

    Note that I am a public servant, not a lawyer. This is not legal advice.

    Yeah but remember a lot of these scammers are pretty cunning. I've seen some of their followup letters and websites - they often spend a fair bit of time working on their intimidating angry legal letters. I can imagine a lot of people would be intimidated into paying on that basis

    Kalkino on
    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • NuckerNucker Registered User
    edited April 2010
    I'm against companies blatantly lying about the service or product they are selling.

    Deception though? Asking you if you want mild or strong when you ask for a medium size coffee isn't deception. It's the difference between the size of the cup, and its content.

    Pretty much this. It's dickish to try rangling money out of your consumers, but if you're not forcing it on them (either by deception or by requiring them to purchase one product to receive what they really want), then the consumer who has an issue with extra costs isn't following "Buyer Beware." Read and question before you make a purchase and this shit doesn't regularly happen.

    Nucker on
  • CognisseurCognisseur Registered User
    edited April 2010
    Delzhand wrote: »
    RUNN1NGMAN wrote: »
    I get so sick of people ragging on the Postal Service like it's some horrible thing foisted upon you that you have to put up with. For less than the cost of a pack of gum I can put a letter in my door, and 3-4 days later its been delivered anywhere in the continental US. That's fucking AMAZING. If that's a scam, please sign me up for the lifetime service plan with Simonizing.

    I think a lot of people shit on the PO because it's government run.

    Or, alternatively, maybe it's for the several reasons I listed involving sleazy business practices that do their best to make me buy things I don't need via misinformation or outright deception.

    Cognisseur on
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    You had one bad employee and are slamming the best run post in the world. Class act there.

    Xenogears of Bore on
    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • CognisseurCognisseur Registered User
    edited April 2010
    You had one bad employee and are slamming the best run post in the world. Class act there.

    I'm sorry, but what? Did you read any of the posts I made?

    1. In the OP, I stated that I've had the envelope thing happen several times. It's happened probably around 6-7 times now, it happens every time, and it happens by different employees.

    2. Not putting anything but the expensive envelopes out has nothing to do a single employee.

    3. Not putting prices on the envelopes has nothing to do with a single employee.

    4. Not putting things like "Media Mail" on their giant board of all the services they offer has nothing to do with a single employee.

    Cognisseur on
  • Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS
    edited April 2010
    japan wrote: »
    I'm against companies blatantly lying about the service or product they are selling.

    Deception though? Asking you if you want mild or strong when you ask for a medium size coffee isn't deception. It's the difference between the size of the cup, and its content.

    To my mind they are certainly going out of their way to mask the fact that they're asking if you want a cost extra.

    Having said that I wouldn't be too concerned about the practice unless they get stroppy if you question it when they ask for more money than you were anticipating.

    Most coffee places I've gone to clearly list the price of extra shots on the menu.

    Unless the customer is absolutely retarded and doesn't know that "bold" means it contains an extra shot, the practice of asking for mild/bold should be a non-issue.

    Protein Shakes on
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Well, if my mom met the following criteria... I'd be in favor if waterboarding her.
  • ResIpsaLoquiturResIpsaLoquitur Not a grammar nazi, just alt-write. Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    And not once did you consider going to the authorities with this information?

    Trust me, if this were in Canada, the Competition Bureau offers whistleblower protection to people who come forward to expose fraudulent companies like the one you just described.

    About fully half of the calls I get a day are from small business who have been targetted by crooks like this dude, who harrass secretaries and scare the shit out of them for their crooked "Directory Services".

    I just wish people realized that just because someone says you owe them money doesn't make it true. Scammers harrassing you? DON'T FUCKING TALK TO THEM! Hang up! Call the cops if the calls become actual harassement. Check with the credit bureau if you want to make sure your credit is safe. There is nothing these scammers can do to you if you don't pay!

    That's not necessarily true.

    My sister's boss got hit with one of those scammers by fax. "Yellow Page" was the company (notice the lack of the "s" at the end), and it used an upside-down version of the yellow pages's walking fingers symbol.

    It wanted to put the company listing online, and had a place to fill out all that info, as well as a place to sign and date.

    Here's how she got taken: she skipped the small print. It was legible, even after it was faxed a second time to me, the terms were pretty understandable with almost no legalese, and was boxed in ABOVE the signature line.

    It was dumb of her not to read the fine print, but they know a certain percentage of people will (just as with mail in rebates) fail to do the follow-through and just sign at the bottom.

    Here's the other way she got taken: It would cost her more to hire an attorney to defend her in court than to just pay the amount they're asking, or for her to travel to where they'd file so she doesn't get found in default. IAAL, and I run into this with potential clients all the time: even when there's a legitimate dispute of how much is owed, we're often talking numbers small enough that paying me would be more than paying the bill outright.

    You do not need legal representation to take a matter to small claims court, just time. Furthermore, you can simply decline payment. If you choose the latter route, make sure to call the credit bureau to inform them that you have been targeted by a fraudulent business and would like to ensure your credit is protected. The Bureau will put a "Fraud Watch" on your account.

    If the scammer starts calling your place of business inform them ONCE that you believe you were intentionally misled into signing, you refuse the service, will not be paying and consider the matter closed and they are not to call again regarding this matter. Then, hang up. If they call again, you inform them that this matter is closed and that any further calls to this effect will be treated as harrasement and appropriate action will be taken.

    Note that court costs apply to companies too, and no company is going to take you to court over a couple hundred dollars. They worst they will do is try and affect your credit, but if your credit company is forewarned, you might be protected on that front.

    Note that I am a public servant, not a lawyer. This is not legal advice.

    Yes, if you're dealing with a local scammer and they summon you to your local county courthouse, you probably don't need an attorney for small claims. However, the national collection agencies hire local counsel on the cheap (I may or may not have done a few, myself) because they can drop cases in bulk, and a judge is not going to often take seriously a defendant claiming that they were scammed when the plaintiff is represented and has a signed contract in hand.

    And that's assuming they file locally.

    Often, part of the scam is to be far from your mark, and include terms that set jurisdiction. If you got scammed for $1,000.00, you live in Ohio, they file in California pusuant to the fradulent contract, you can, a) hire an attorney to show for you, which will cost at least double that, b) travel there yourself, spend about that much on travel, food and lodging, AND lose a few days off work, c) ignore it, get hit with the 1000 + interest + court costs + attorney fees and have a court judgment on your credit report, or d) just pay the 1000 in the first place.

    ResIpsaLoquitur on
    League of Legends: MichaelDominick; Blizzard(NA): MichaelD#11402; Steam ID: MichaelDominick
    PwH4Ipj.jpg
  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    japan wrote: »
    I'm against companies blatantly lying about the service or product they are selling.

    Deception though? Asking you if you want mild or strong when you ask for a medium size coffee isn't deception. It's the difference between the size of the cup, and its content.

    To my mind they are certainly going out of their way to mask the fact that they're asking if you want a cost extra.

    Having said that I wouldn't be too concerned about the practice unless they get stroppy if you question it when they ask for more money than you were anticipating.

    Most coffee places I've gone to clearly list the price of extra shots on the menu.

    Unless the customer is absolutely retarded and doesn't know that "bold" means it contains an extra shot, the practice of asking for mild/bold should be a non-issue.

    I've never heard it phrased like that, so it would probably get me at least once. I'd get them to remake it, though.

    japan on
  • Romantic UndeadRomantic Undead Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Kalkino wrote: »
    And not once did you consider going to the authorities with this information?

    Trust me, if this were in Canada, the Competition Bureau offers whistleblower protection to people who come forward to expose fraudulent companies like the one you just described.

    About fully half of the calls I get a day are from small business who have been targetted by crooks like this dude, who harrass secretaries and scare the shit out of them for their crooked "Directory Services".

    I just wish people realized that just because someone says you owe them money doesn't make it true. Scammers harrassing you? DON'T FUCKING TALK TO THEM! Hang up! Call the cops if the calls become actual harassement. Check with the credit bureau if you want to make sure your credit is safe. There is nothing these scammers can do to you if you don't pay!

    That's not necessarily true.

    My sister's boss got hit with one of those scammers by fax. "Yellow Page" was the company (notice the lack of the "s" at the end), and it used an upside-down version of the yellow pages's walking fingers symbol.

    It wanted to put the company listing online, and had a place to fill out all that info, as well as a place to sign and date.

    Here's how she got taken: she skipped the small print. It was legible, even after it was faxed a second time to me, the terms were pretty understandable with almost no legalese, and was boxed in ABOVE the signature line.

    It was dumb of her not to read the fine print, but they know a certain percentage of people will (just as with mail in rebates) fail to do the follow-through and just sign at the bottom.

    Here's the other way she got taken: It would cost her more to hire an attorney to defend her in court than to just pay the amount they're asking, or for her to travel to where they'd file so she doesn't get found in default. IAAL, and I run into this with potential clients all the time: even when there's a legitimate dispute of how much is owed, we're often talking numbers small enough that paying me would be more than paying the bill outright.

    You do not need legal representation to take a matter to small claims court, just time. Furthermore, you can simply decline payment. If you choose the latter route, make sure to call the credit bureau to inform them that you have been targeted by a fraudulent business and would like to ensure your credit is protected. The Bureau will put a "Fraud Watch" on your account.

    If the scammer starts calling your place of business inform them ONCE that you believe you were intentionally misled into signing, you refuse the service, will not be paying and consider the matter closed and they are not to call again regarding this matter. Then, hang up. If they call again, you inform them that this matter is closed and that any further calls to this effect will be treated as harrasement and appropriate action will be taken.

    Note that court costs apply to companies too, and no company is going to take you to court over a couple hundred dollars. They worst they will do is try and affect your credit, but if your credit company is forewarned, you might be protected on that front.

    Note that I am a public servant, not a lawyer. This is not legal advice.

    Yeah but remember a lot of these scammers are pretty cunning. I've seen some of their followup letters and websites - they often spend a fair bit of time working on their intimidating angry legal letters. I can imagine a lot of people would be intimidated into paying on that basis


    Oh I know, I see these letters all the time. What counts here is education. People need to be more aware of their rights when dealing with businesses and not be pushed around by agressive marketing tactics.

    They want something from you. Your money. Stop giving it to them and they'll walk away.

    And if any of you find yourselves working for one such scammer in the future, come forward and report them to the authorities, please!

    I know to you, it might feel like just a job, but there are people who are suffering emotional and maybe even financial distress due to these unethical and illegal practices.

    I've spoken to potential whistleblowers who call me and say "But, I don't want to lose my job!". Newsflash, bucko: You're a scam artist! Your "job" is illegal.

    Romantic Undead on
    3DS FC: 1547-5210-6531
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I was actually tricked by a former boss to lie to an customer and another employee. I think that's probably the most rude thing you can do to a customer. All this other stuff aside, when you actively lie about it to their face, boo.

    bowen on
    not a doctor, not a lawyer, don't @ me
  • TehSlothTehSloth Hit Or Miss I Guess They Never Miss, HuhRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    japan wrote: »
    japan wrote: »
    I'm against companies blatantly lying about the service or product they are selling.

    Deception though? Asking you if you want mild or strong when you ask for a medium size coffee isn't deception. It's the difference between the size of the cup, and its content.

    To my mind they are certainly going out of their way to mask the fact that they're asking if you want a cost extra.

    Having said that I wouldn't be too concerned about the practice unless they get stroppy if you question it when they ask for more money than you were anticipating.

    Most coffee places I've gone to clearly list the price of extra shots on the menu.

    Unless the customer is absolutely retarded and doesn't know that "bold" means it contains an extra shot, the practice of asking for mild/bold should be a non-issue.

    I've never heard it phrased like that, so it would probably get me at least once. I'd get them to remake it, though.

    If someone asked me if I wanted my coffee bold/strong/mild it really doesn't indicate that I'm going to be charged for something. I can see if there's like a "Try it bold with a shot of espresso" sign somewhere that indicates that it's something more than just strong coffee.

    Someone brought up Dentistry earlier, and I've definitely had some poor experiences there. I've got a lot of supernumerary teeth so I had to go through a good deal of dental surgery as a kid to get most of them removed since they were impacting my primary teeth. I hate going to new dentists because it's about a 50/50 split of whether or not they'll try to hassle me about removing another supernumerary tooth that's very noticeable on X-Rays but has never bothered me. I remember one going on and on about how I needed to just go ahead and schedule an appointment to have it taken care of and they could just go ahead and get rid of my wisdom teeth since they were definitely going to be problematic. It's been 4 years since and I've had none of those things done, and I'm quite fine.

    TehSloth on
    FC: 1993-7778-8872 PSN: TehSloth Xbox: SlothTeh
    twitch.tv/tehsloth
  • Romantic UndeadRomantic Undead Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    You do not need legal representation to take a matter to small claims court, just time. Furthermore, you can simply decline payment. If you choose the latter route, make sure to call the credit bureau to inform them that you have been targeted by a fraudulent business and would like to ensure your credit is protected. The Bureau will put a "Fraud Watch" on your account.

    If the scammer starts calling your place of business inform them ONCE that you believe you were intentionally misled into signing, you refuse the service, will not be paying and consider the matter closed and they are not to call again regarding this matter. Then, hang up. If they call again, you inform them that this matter is closed and that any further calls to this effect will be treated as harrasement and appropriate action will be taken.

    Note that court costs apply to companies too, and no company is going to take you to court over a couple hundred dollars. They worst they will do is try and affect your credit, but if your credit company is forewarned, you might be protected on that front.

    Note that I am a public servant, not a lawyer. This is not legal advice.

    Yes, if you're dealing with a local scammer and they summon you to your local county courthouse, you probably don't need an attorney for small claims. However, the national collection agencies hire local counsel on the cheap (I may or may not have done a few, myself) because they can drop cases in bulk, and a judge is not going to often take seriously a defendant claiming that they were scammed when the plaintiff is represented and has a signed contract in hand.

    And that's assuming they file locally.

    Often, part of the scam is to be far from your mark, and include terms that set jurisdiction. If you got scammed for $1,000.00, you live in Ohio, they file in California pusuant to the fradulent contract, you can, a) hire an attorney to show for you, which will cost at least double that, b) travel there yourself, spend about that much on travel, food and lodging, AND lose a few days off work, c) ignore it, get hit with the 1000 + interest + court costs + attorney fees and have a court judgment on your credit report, or d) just pay the 1000 in the first place.

    Well now I have to ask about counter-suing. In the scenario presented, could one not, feasibly, go to court, or hire a lawyer, and then, once the scam exposed, counter-sue the offending party for the legal/travel fees incurred over this scam?

    Romantic Undead on
    3DS FC: 1547-5210-6531
  • Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS
    edited April 2010
    TehSloth wrote: »
    japan wrote: »
    japan wrote: »
    I'm against companies blatantly lying about the service or product they are selling.

    Deception though? Asking you if you want mild or strong when you ask for a medium size coffee isn't deception. It's the difference between the size of the cup, and its content.

    To my mind they are certainly going out of their way to mask the fact that they're asking if you want a cost extra.

    Having said that I wouldn't be too concerned about the practice unless they get stroppy if you question it when they ask for more money than you were anticipating.

    Most coffee places I've gone to clearly list the price of extra shots on the menu.

    Unless the customer is absolutely retarded and doesn't know that "bold" means it contains an extra shot, the practice of asking for mild/bold should be a non-issue.

    I've never heard it phrased like that, so it would probably get me at least once. I'd get them to remake it, though.

    If someone asked me if I wanted my coffee bold/strong/mild it really doesn't indicate that I'm going to be charged for something. I can see if there's like a "Try it bold with a shot of espresso" sign somewhere that indicates that it's something more than just strong coffee.

    Again, I don't think businesses should cater to the lowest common denominator. It's already bad enough that we have microwave manuals that say "please dont use this device to dry your animals" or beverage cups that say "the content of this cup may be extremely hot".

    Protein Shakes on
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Well, if my mom met the following criteria... I'd be in favor if waterboarding her.
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus premium Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    TehSloth wrote: »
    japan wrote: »
    japan wrote: »
    I'm against companies blatantly lying about the service or product they are selling.

    Deception though? Asking you if you want mild or strong when you ask for a medium size coffee isn't deception. It's the difference between the size of the cup, and its content.

    To my mind they are certainly going out of their way to mask the fact that they're asking if you want a cost extra.

    Having said that I wouldn't be too concerned about the practice unless they get stroppy if you question it when they ask for more money than you were anticipating.

    Most coffee places I've gone to clearly list the price of extra shots on the menu.

    Unless the customer is absolutely retarded and doesn't know that "bold" means it contains an extra shot, the practice of asking for mild/bold should be a non-issue.

    I've never heard it phrased like that, so it would probably get me at least once. I'd get them to remake it, though.

    If someone asked me if I wanted my coffee bold/strong/mild it really doesn't indicate that I'm going to be charged for something. I can see if there's like a "Try it bold with a shot of espresso" sign somewhere that indicates that it's something more than just strong coffee.

    Again, I don't think businesses should cater to the lowest common denominator. It's already bad enough that we have microwave manuals that say "please dont use this device to dry your animals" or beverage cups that say "the content of this cup may be extremely hot".

    You realize the only reason that those warnings are on there is because of court cases where they had to pay, right?

    DarkPrimus on
    dt3GeqU.png
    Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
  • TehSlothTehSloth Hit Or Miss I Guess They Never Miss, HuhRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    TehSloth wrote: »
    japan wrote: »
    japan wrote: »
    I'm against companies blatantly lying about the service or product they are selling.

    Deception though? Asking you if you want mild or strong when you ask for a medium size coffee isn't deception. It's the difference between the size of the cup, and its content.

    To my mind they are certainly going out of their way to mask the fact that they're asking if you want a cost extra.

    Having said that I wouldn't be too concerned about the practice unless they get stroppy if you question it when they ask for more money than you were anticipating.

    Most coffee places I've gone to clearly list the price of extra shots on the menu.

    Unless the customer is absolutely retarded and doesn't know that "bold" means it contains an extra shot, the practice of asking for mild/bold should be a non-issue.

    I've never heard it phrased like that, so it would probably get me at least once. I'd get them to remake it, though.

    If someone asked me if I wanted my coffee bold/strong/mild it really doesn't indicate that I'm going to be charged for something. I can see if there's like a "Try it bold with a shot of espresso" sign somewhere that indicates that it's something more than just strong coffee.

    Again, I don't think businesses should cater to the lowest common denominator. It's already bad enough that we have microwave manuals that say "please dont use this device to dry your animals" or beverage cups that say "the content of this cup may be extremely hot".

    I just don't think there's anything about "would you like your coffee strong or mild" that's indicative of the up-sell. I'm perfectly fine if they asked me if I'd like to have a shot of espresso in it, or even if I'm at a restaurant and when I ask for water if they ask bottled or tap, but hiding charges behind extremely generic terminology is flat out deceptive.

    TehSloth on
    FC: 1993-7778-8872 PSN: TehSloth Xbox: SlothTeh
    twitch.tv/tehsloth
  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Again, I don't think businesses should cater to the lowest common denominator. It's already bad enough that we have microwave manuals that say "please dont use this device to dry your animals" or beverage cups that say "the content of this cup may be extremely hot".

    Those are pretty terrible analogies. As long as you don't think it's unreasonable for someone to object when it becomes apparent that there is a difference in price, then I don't have a problem with it.

    I don't think it's really "deceptive" so much as (I was going to say "unfairly" here, but that's a subjective judgement) exploiting a person's lack of familiarity with a product/service. I reckon there does come a point where businesses have to bear some duty of disclosure, especially when it comes to extra costs.

    That's the reason why (for example) Ryanair got fucked by the advertising authorities for plastering billboards with £1 airfares between major cities because, whoops, that figure doesn't include taxes. Or a booking fee. Or the fee you're charged if you want to take baggage. Or the surcharge that applies if you use any method of payment bar some incredibly obscure pre-paid debit card that itself costs money to purchase

    japan on
  • SipexSipex Registered User
    edited April 2010
    TehSloth wrote: »
    japan wrote: »
    japan wrote: »
    I'm against companies blatantly lying about the service or product they are selling.

    Deception though? Asking you if you want mild or strong when you ask for a medium size coffee isn't deception. It's the difference between the size of the cup, and its content.

    To my mind they are certainly going out of their way to mask the fact that they're asking if you want a cost extra.

    Having said that I wouldn't be too concerned about the practice unless they get stroppy if you question it when they ask for more money than you were anticipating.

    Most coffee places I've gone to clearly list the price of extra shots on the menu.

    Unless the customer is absolutely retarded and doesn't know that "bold" means it contains an extra shot, the practice of asking for mild/bold should be a non-issue.

    I've never heard it phrased like that, so it would probably get me at least once. I'd get them to remake it, though.

    If someone asked me if I wanted my coffee bold/strong/mild it really doesn't indicate that I'm going to be charged for something. I can see if there's like a "Try it bold with a shot of espresso" sign somewhere that indicates that it's something more than just strong coffee.

    Again, I don't think businesses should cater to the lowest common denominator. It's already bad enough that we have microwave manuals that say "please dont use this device to dry your animals" or beverage cups that say "the content of this cup may be extremely hot".

    What about tourism from different but similar companies? I'm Canadian and the chances that I'll visit the US in my lifetime are pretty high but we don't have that sort of terminology here. There's no such thing as a bold coffee here and expresso shots are indicated by "Would you like an expresso shot added to your coffee?".

    I think there's a difference between common sense (ie: Coffee is hot, no matter where you are in the world) and terminology.

    Sipex on
    Horseshoe wrote:
    I've got good news and bad news about 6th level, That Guy. The good news is that Forbiddance spell allows you to prevent enemies different alignment from entering a consecrated area, which is actually useful! The bad news is that the only other new sixth level spell makes lunch for everybody. Guess which one the party is going to expect you to cast.
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Cognisseur wrote: »
    Delzhand wrote: »
    RUNN1NGMAN wrote: »
    I get so sick of people ragging on the Postal Service like it's some horrible thing foisted upon you that you have to put up with. For less than the cost of a pack of gum I can put a letter in my door, and 3-4 days later its been delivered anywhere in the continental US. That's fucking AMAZING. If that's a scam, please sign me up for the lifetime service plan with Simonizing.

    I think a lot of people shit on the PO because it's government run.

    Or, alternatively, maybe it's for the several reasons I listed involving sleazy business practices that do their best to make me buy things I don't need via misinformation or outright deception.

    Your experience is not indicative of mine; I find that their prices are clearly posted directly above the counters at the post offices. If there's a doubt (for instance, if a shipment is going to be priced by weight), just asking them works for me.

    That said I've never asked "for the cheapest envelope available."

    Keep in mind that their job is not necessarily to make you satisfied. This falls into the area of "the customer is not always right." Their job is to make sure your package arrives safe and on time. If they have reason to believe that a padded envelope will do that job better, they're entirely right to recommend a padded envelope.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    RUNN1NGMAN wrote: »
    I get so sick of people ragging on the Postal Service like it's some horrible thing foisted upon you that you have to put up with. For less than the cost of a pack of gum I can put a letter in my door, and 3-4 days later its been delivered anywhere in the continental US. That's fucking AMAZING. If that's a scam, please sign me up for the lifetime service plan with Simonizing.

    Yet, you seem to think people shouldn't use services they provide, such as to procure envelopes.

    End on
    I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
    zaleiria-by-lexxy-sig.jpgsteam~tinythumb.png
  • amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I really can't share the hate for the USPS. I mean seriously, they just introduced the flat rate box which is one of the cheapest ways to ship anything in the country, and it's in big cardboard advertising all over there store.

    edit: honestly, I can agree with a lot of stuff in this thread, but I've never had a bad experience with a post office. Getting in and out has always been extremely quick, they've never lost a letter or package, they've always been helpful with mail forwarding, (which I've done about seven times in the last 10 years) and I've never even had a problem with a local mail carrier. They're awesome and have the memory of an elephant, because every time I ask them to check something or be on the lookout for something they do. Case in point, I ordered something which arrived the day after Christmas and the postal carrier knew I was looking for it, and it was late, and actually walked it to my apartment door and delivered it with a smile on his face. Cool, cool dude.

    amateurhour on

    Arch wrote: »

    I never expected this burn from captain bushmeat
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Technically, the smallest envelope they have wouldn't even fit a book, so your question already involves one unspoken reasonable assumption ("bring me the smallest envelope you have [that will fit this book]"), so why shouldn't it involve two unspoken reasonable assumptions? ("bring me the smallest envelope you have [that will fit this book and protect it from damage on its way to its destination]")

    If you wanted the smallest unpadded envelope, why didn't you just ask for that? It sounds like you wanted to catch some poor counter monkey red-handed! engaging in deceptive business practices! just so you have something to whaarrgarble about.

    Fuck, if I gave every customer exactly what he asked for, I'd lose my job, because customers are at best unschooled (if they were professionals in my field, they wouldn't be customers) and at worst barely cognizant enough to put on a shirt by themselves without covering it in drool.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Edit: Whoops, more shit on that page.

    End on
    I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
    zaleiria-by-lexxy-sig.jpgsteam~tinythumb.png
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I really can't share the hate for the USPS. I mean seriously, they just introduced the flat rate box which is one of the cheapest ways to ship anything in the country, and it's in big cardboard advertising all over there store.

    They offer a product under cost, with enough reliability to be used for legal matters, and to underserved populations (like people in really remote rural areas).

    The folks who bitch about the USPS should feel really fucking lucky that they can put a $0.44 stamp on a letter and send it out to 17556 Buttfucknowhere Hwy, East Jesus, Kentucky because you know FedEx would love to charge you $12.50 for the same service.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    End wrote: »
    Edit: Whoops, more shit on that page.

    The argument still stands, the cheapest envelope is going to be letter-sized which isn't going to fit a book.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Hum. I wonder how big the book is.

    You wouldn't put a book in any sort of cheap envelope I envision. Maybe he was looking for one of those manila ones?

    Edit: Just so we're clear, when I read book, I originally thought of a little booklet. :P Anything bigger than that wouldn't fit what was in my mental image.

    End on
    I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
    zaleiria-by-lexxy-sig.jpgsteam~tinythumb.png
Sign In or Register to comment.